A Personal Discusion End of Thread (was Personal Questions)

[Guest guest]

Nora/Ellen

 

 

This really sounds more like pointed & personal questions directed

specifically to Ellen. You two have a lot to discuss. I am going to

respectfully ask that you continue this dialogue with each other off-

line please.

 

 

~SE101

 

 

 

, "Ellen McGowen"

<ellen.mcgowen@w...> wrote:

>

>

> Nora,

>

> I am happy to see that you do not fight on the command of male

> gurus. Perhaps in India the sky gods were never secure enough

> to create an Athena, with helmet and spear, to fight for

> patriarchy.

>

> I always listen to women, when they speak from their hearts, and

> not from some script written for them by a man.

>

> "I did brought up this issue about the butterfly concept and you

told

> us about this "Goddess' who help you to remove the cocoon,

> the cocoon you said create by men etc.But you see Ellen I am not

> referring to the cocoon created by others. I am referring to the

> cocoon or the safety zone that you create by yourself. Are you

> strong enough to break them off and fly and be FREE. Why do you need

> others to do it for you? For in the natural environment, it's the

> butterfly who breaks their own cocoon."

>

> I knew what you were referring to, but not all cocoons are

> defense mechanisms. A person cocoon in poverty or hunger

> or treatable disease is not in a cocoon of her own making.

>

>

> "I have the opportunity to help up in a Woman's Aid Organisation.

> Basically it is an organisation for women by women. They offer

> assistance and counselling for women who have been abuse: Physical,

> emotional, sexual etc. I met this young lady. A very pretty and

> seems sucessful in a way. She have her own small publishing firm,

> she is assertive, she organises worshops and seminars for others.

> She impress me very much but its something about her that got my

> attention, her bitterness towards men in general. So one day on our

> field trip I thought : hey! Lets test her. I just curious to know

> how strong is this image of assertiveness that she displayed so

> fiercely. We chat and indirectly I tried to bring her back to that

> period of time when the actual abuse takes place. Immediately she

> crumble. Yes ! she practically cried her heart out and what ever

> strength she have displayed, to me just crumpled like a pack of

> cards."

>

> Why, she needed a place to heal from abuse, with Sisters who

> will understand and support her emotionally. In western feminism,

> that is what women's spaces are for. Doesn't Shaktism provide

> such places and Sisterhood for abused women? How could

> it serve Ma if it does not?

>

> "My opinion is that : this image of assertiveness, confidence and

> what's not she create for herself is the cocoon she build around

> herself. Thinking yes! I am okay. I have overcome is, but have she?

> It is just an Illusion. "

>

> Of course it is. After all, if there is no place for heal in saftey,

> no hospital for the heart safe from the heartless, see must still

> survive among the heartless, pretending to be one of them. Otherwise

> they will torment her more.

>

> "Another is a young lady, who after a year came back and stood in

> public and said : This is what happen to me.. and she is able to

> describe her experience and her last words was : I was angry then,

> but I am not now. I have forgiven those who have abuse me. "

>

> Had her abusers *asked* for her forgiveness? If they had, and we

knew

> they would abuse no more, I would agree with her decision to

forgive. But

> more they had not asked for forgiveness, and may still be out there

abusing

> others and creating more cocoons. In that case, which is the usual

case,

> they must be stopped. Of course each victim deserves space and

opportunity

> to heal in herself, but is not enough. If a woman's cultural

backgrown,

> Christian

> or Hindu, will only let her heal by forgiving her abusers, who are

still

> carrying on

> their abuses, her healing is more immediately mportant for her than

improved

> political consciousness. Let her forgive. But other Sisters who

*can* see

> the

> larger picture can work to end the abuses themselves, and this is

also

> service

> to Ma.

>

> "It is my believe that to go back is what you must do, and to laid

> that nightmare to rest is what you must do or all your life you will

> continue to be hunted by this nightmare. I am not sure my sentence

> here make sense. Are you daring enough Ellen to go back and face

> your so called "Enemy"? Its like watching a horror movie but

> this time its you as the victim. If you are able to sit there and

> watch the whole movie, seeing yourself being slaughtered and emerged

> not stirred at all, then you are a real hero to me."

>

> It makes perfect sense to me, but there are many ways to go about

it.

> Shamanic journeying is one, and my path uses those techniques. I

believe

> all traditions are ultimately descended from what I call "Ma

Shamanism"

> that we brought with us out of Africa some 50,000 to 100,000 years

ago.

> So a great many concepts and technques found in one tradition can

> reappear with variations on the other side of the world, because

they

> had a common origin.

>

> "Did you have the opportuinity to read the book entittled

Encountering Kali:

> In the

> margins, at the center and in the west. In PArt 2: Chapter 9 : Why

> the Tantrika is a Hero : Kali in the Psychoanalytic Traditions. "

>

> I know the book, but I have not read it yet. For a variety of

reasons I

> do not want to go into here, transsexual women and the

psychoanalytic

> traditions are not on speaking terms. A large amount, maybe even

most,

> of pychoanalytic traditions were stolen from eastern spirituality

and

> repackaged

> as western "science" without credit to the real inventors.

Psychiatry and

> even

> more so psychoanalysis pathologizes diversity and blames the victim

as

> a matter of course.

>

> "Sometimes I have this impression that the feminist especially the

> militant ones uses Kali as a weapon against Man/Men in general thus

> miss the whole spiritual aspect of Kali. They saw Kali standing on

> Shiva, it excites them. Yes! That is what we should do. We should do

> the same.. they say. "

>

> I think that famous murthy has been spin doctored by appologists

for the

> conquering sky gods.

> I note that Kali is black, like the chthonic people of India, but

the so

> called "demon's heads"

> are white, like the Bronze Age invaders. Shiva's position, which

looks like

> defeat, is frequently

> respun as his victory. Yeah, right. There is even a growing

tendency to

> "blue" Kali, as if She were

> one of the conquerers' sky gods rather than a chthonic Earth

Mother.

> Patriarchy is still trying to

> contain, defuse and appropriate Her.

>

> Just to start off, I like to ask a simple question to Ellen:

>

> What do you mean when you say : "I am a goddess" or "thou art

> Goddess".

>

> You know, I am certain, that the goal of ritual is not cognitive,

> theoretical understanding

> but to reach much deeper, nonverbal, portions of the self. Hence

the meaning

> of such a mantra, for it is a kind of mantra, cannot be adequately

conveyed

> in words. The rituals are the context in which the deeper meanings

can be

> conveyed. But the little which can be conveyed in words is that it

> *empowers*

> women with a sense of their own divinity. sacredness, and potential.

> Cognitive

> thealogies can be spun about immanent deity and panentheism, but

the root

> intention

> is to instill deep awareness in each woman that she has divine

power. This

> is radical

> and transgressive in a culture which teaches women to defer to men,

and

> which has

> only male images of divinity.

>

> "I too have undergo this new age goddess thingy initiation

> ceremony. And I been fed with a lot of information. My so

> call "Goddess" who initiate me is from Australia. So I would love

> know more about your version of the concept of Goddess. You mention

> Alexandra Kafta. Yes! I have heard and read about her, and Have form

> my own opinion about some of her teachings. But we are not here to

> criticise other people's teaching."

>

> I mentioned Chandra Alexandre, who is praticing and teaching

> a feminist and ecofeminist version of Shakta in San Francisco.

> She has remove the "blame the victim" and hierarchical tendencies

> and restored Sacred Nature by adding elements of Wicca. Of course

> Shakta tradiionalist will scorn this because they do not that

feminist

> spirituality has no desire to preserve patriarchal traditions. We

will take

> whatever can be used to empower and liberate women, in our hearts,

minds

> and societies and discard the rest as disempower drow. Our

transgressiveness

> has not yet been contained and defused.

>

> "Somebody question this concept of "Heal Thyself". Yes! That

> is what I am getting it. For if you really consider yourself as the

> Goddess, you have the ability to heal yourself, and only when you

> are able to heal yourself, you can heal others."

>

> I am not separate from others who have experienced patriarchal

> abuses. I cannot heal completely unless all the others do too. So

> Kuan Yin and Tara have taught through example.

>

> "HAve you ever tried to clean your wounds Ellen. Try it sometimes,

if

> you do have the opportunity. Do not let the nurse do it for you.

> Look at it. Or if You can magine or visualise having this dirty

> wound on your leg. To make it more interesting, you see this little

> wormy : maggots emerging from your dirty wounds. Would you have the

> courage to clean it yourself or would you immediately close your

> eyes and not wanting to see it? "

>

> I clean my wounds by fighting the system that made that made them,

> and I fight that system in the only way it can be fought. Kali did

not

> slash the demon of violence, which only breeds more violence. She

> drank his blood, took away his powers of regeneration and

reproduction.

>

> That too is a transformative magic, changing hate into something

far more

> letal to patriarchy: empowering women.

>

> "Otherwise you can go on "I am the Goddess" million times, you

> will never be one"

>

> I am one. I was born one and I will die one. And all tortures the

demons

> threw at me for half a century never made me turn away from that

knowledge.

> That is why I lived when most of the others died.

>

> "I am being told a joke by my Australian "Goddess"

> friend. When they did the goddess worshop in America, the American

> ladies insist that they should be given a Certificate which says :

> Now you are a Goddess! hahhaaaaaa."

>

> They also need to buy my prayer beads, over at the vendors' area

>

> "This is all I have to say for a time being."

>

> Blessings, sister, and Jai Ma! to your women's aid organization

work.

>

> Ellen

>

>

> .