Guest guest Posted October 9, 2004 Report Share Posted October 9, 2004 "I too will leave, and I will telphone you within the next few days (I am on vacation, and online irregularly) to plan our last great act together: Dismantling and closing the group -- just as our first great acts together were to create and to save it. We must not now leave it abandoned, a great bloated whale carcass, empty and sad like so many other big, dead . We must put it to rest with the same love and respect that it has always shown to us. We must work together one last time, and do this thing right. It is our duty." It is unbelievable to me that Nora would choose to leave this group and that DB would join with her in closing down this group, all because of a few twisted individuals who are so consumed with hatred that they reject all attempts from the members to help lift their load and instead seek to infect all others with their blighted worldview. A major part of Sadhana is to stand apart from the events of the world, to not engage those events in the manner that they present themselves but to rise above ego and emotion and to inject the divine into one's perception. One cannot be responsible for the actions of others, that leads to co-dependency. But one can be responsible for their own actions and thoughts. Indeed, our only responsibility is to make ourselves into fit vehicles for coming into the presence of the Divine. It is sadhana that does that. Sadhana includes forbearance, compassion equinimity, serenity, endurance, and faith. Please, Nora and DB, do not take this abuse by the hateful handful of the group personally. It is pointless to engage them or even listen to them. I know that you do not bar people from this club, but there are other alternatives to dealing with the hateful rants of such as Ellen and Lilith. All of us could just refuse to respond to their hateful rants. We cannot take on their responsibility for removing the obstacles to their spiritual growth. Ignoring them would be just as effective as barring them and more humane. You could also delete their posts. They would soon grow tired of being ignored and slink back to the depths from which they came. If you choose to shut this club down, well, the Divine works in mysterious ways. I just want to thank both of you and the other moderators for your diligent and thoughtful efforts in helping others to recognize their own divinity. You both have my highest regards now and for the future. So Ham Omprem , "Devi Bhakta" <devi_bhakta> wrote: > > > Nora wrote: "This shall be my last message for this board and I shall > not respond anymore, and this is what I have to say." > > Dear Nora: > > Last night, I received a call from my dear old friend, P___. He was > at a hotel. His marriage is breaking up. Anna was on the cell phone > with E____, his wife. We have all been good friends for years, long > before we all married and settled down. They have a gorgeous > home, beautiful young daughters, excellent professions. And now that > is unraveling. It was in my dreams all night as I slept, and it > weighed heavily on my thoughts this morning as I woke. > > Then I logged into and found this from you. It didn't even > shock me; it just fit the mood. As with P___ and E___'s marriage > dissolving before their (and my) eyes, it represents the victory of > negativity and ill-will over positivity and good works. > > Am I being overly dramatic? Maybe, maybe not. But indulge me for a > moment, all right? We are not married, of course. You have your > S____, I have my A___. We have our lives. But in this project of > Shakti Sadhana, we really are "married" -- in the sense that it's > something enduring and beautiful that we built together with love and > passion, laughter and tears. Together we faced all enemies, and > emerged scarred but unbeaten. We explored new worlds, learned > together, made mistakes together -- but always growing wiser and > stronger. > > I am not saying this to make you stay if you do not want to stay. I > am not saying it to make you feel bad. I celebrate those years in my > heart, and will cherish them always. If it wasn't meant to last, so > be it. Better to separate than to stay together in a poisoned > atmosphere of resentment and mistrust. The group is Devi's and She is > its only raison d'etre. > > But we are its twin human poles. For better or for worse, our > personalities, in combination, defined the place. People felt the > love and passion we brought to the group, the time we were willing to > invest -- and they stayed. In the absense of that feeling, they will > go, and they should. The group seems strong. It is growing, becoming > the sheltering "oak tree" we once called it in a fairy tale we co- > wrote in laughter. But it is still very young. Its roots are still > deepening. It is vulnerable, and will not survive the strong wind you > propose. It will begin to wither, like big trees do. Not all at once. > Just fewer and fewer green branches each season, until it is but a > shadow of its former self. > > I will not let it happen. The group and its people mean too much to > me. If you wish to go, I will support your decision and will love you > all the same. I will not try to stop you. But I will not stay and try > to pretend that the tree is fine. Kochu and SE101 are teachers and > brothers; Buttercookie61 has been a steadfast friend and supporter > although her views often diverge from ours. But without you, > something essential will be gone, and I will not stay and act as if > it did not happen. > > I too will leave, and I will telphone you within the next few days (I > am on vacation, and online irregularly) to plan our last great act > together: Dismantling and closing the group -- just as our first > great acts together were to create and to save it. We must not now > leave it abandoned, a great bloated whale carcass, empty and sad like > so many other big, dead . We must put it to rest with the > same love and respect that it has always shown to us. We must work > together one last time, and do this thing right. It is our duty. > > Will people care? Maybe a few, for a while. Maybe more. I always > suspect that we made a lot of people happy, more than we'll ever > know. A___ will probably be thrilled for a few days, trumpeting to > everyone who'll listen that she knew it all along and predicted > everything -- that she warned me about you; and warned you about me. > No one will listen or care, of course, except her usual circle of > cronies ... and she will soon lose interest and (under whatever new > combination of ID's) move on to find new targets for her negativity > and ill-will. > > Because yes, as I said above, this is a victory for negativity and > ill will. But hatred can never breed joy. Her victory will still be > as sterile as the group that she formed to mock us. And our loss will > still be as sweet as the group that we built together. > > With all warmest wishes -- and yes, with love ... > > DB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2004 Report Share Posted October 9, 2004 Namaste Omprem, Thanks for your voice of reason and gentle reminders. The proper mindset is essential in dealing with the more disruptive element of this group (and life in general. Timely and appropriate. <<Sadhana includes forbearance, compassion equinimity, serenity, endurance, and faith>> (SIGH) Time to go dust off the Asana. Cheers, SE101 , "omprem" <omprem> wrote: > > "I too will leave, and I will telphone you within the next few days (I > am on vacation, and online irregularly) to plan our last great act > together: Dismantling and closing the group -- just as our first > great acts together were to create and to save it. We must not > now leave it abandoned, a great bloated whale carcass, empty > and sad like so many other big, dead . We must > put it to rest with the same love and respect that it has always > shown to us. We must work together one last time, and do this > thing right. It is our duty." > > > It is unbelievable to me that Nora would choose to leave this > group and that DB would join with her in closing down this > group, all because of a few twisted individuals who are so > consumed with hatred that they reject all attempts from the > members to help lift their load and instead seek to infect all > others with their blighted worldview. > > A major part of Sadhana is to stand apart from the events of the > world, to not engage those events in the manner that they > present themselves but to rise above ego and emotion and to > inject the divine into one's perception. > > One cannot be responsible for the actions of others, that leads to > co-dependency. But one can be responsible for their own > actions and thoughts. Indeed, our only responsibility is to make > ourselves into fit vehicles for coming into the presence of the > Divine. It is sadhana that does that. > > Sadhana includes forbearance, compassion equinimity, > serenity, endurance, and faith. > > Please, Nora and DB, do not take this abuse by the hateful > handful of the group personally. It is pointless to engage them > or even listen to them. > > I know that you do not bar people from this club, but there are > other alternatives to dealing with the hateful rants of such as > Ellen and Lilith. All of us could just refuse to respond to their > hateful rants. We cannot take on their responsibility for removing > the obstacles to their spiritual growth. Ignoring them would be > just as effective as barring them and more humane. You could > also delete their posts. They would soon grow tired of being > ignored and slink back to the depths from which they came. > > If you choose to shut this club down, well, the Divine works in > mysterious ways. I just want to thank both of you and the other > moderators for your diligent and thoughtful efforts in helping > others to recognize their own divinity. > > You both have my highest regards now and for the future. > > So Ham > > Omprem > > , "Devi Bhakta" > <devi_bhakta> wrote: > > > > > > Nora wrote: "This shall be my last message for this board and > I shall > > not respond anymore, and this is what I have to say." > > > > Dear Nora: > > > > Last night, I received a call from my dear old friend, P___. He > was > > at a hotel. His marriage is breaking up. Anna was on the cell > phone > > with E____, his wife. We have all been good friends for years, > long > > before we all married and settled down. They have a gorgeous > > home, beautiful young daughters, excellent professions. And > now that > > is unraveling. It was in my dreams all night as I slept, and it > > weighed heavily on my thoughts this morning as I woke. > > > > Then I logged into and found this from you. It didn't even > > shock me; it just fit the mood. As with P___ and E___'s > marriage > > dissolving before their (and my) eyes, it represents the victory > of > > negativity and ill-will over positivity and good works. > > > > Am I being overly dramatic? Maybe, maybe not. But indulge me > for a > > moment, all right? We are not married, of course. You have > your > > S____, I have my A___. We have our lives. But in this project of > > Shakti Sadhana, we really are "married" -- in the sense that it's > > something enduring and beautiful that we built together with > love and > > passion, laughter and tears. Together we faced all enemies, > and > > emerged scarred but unbeaten. We explored new worlds, > learned > > together, made mistakes together -- but always growing wiser > and > > stronger. > > > > I am not saying this to make you stay if you do not want to stay. > I > > am not saying it to make you feel bad. I celebrate those years > in my > > heart, and will cherish them always. If it wasn't meant to last, > so > > be it. Better to separate than to stay together in a poisoned > > atmosphere of resentment and mistrust. The group is Devi's > and She is > > its only raison d'etre. > > > > But we are its twin human poles. For better or for worse, our > > personalities, in combination, defined the place. People felt the > > love and passion we brought to the group, the time we were > willing to > > invest -- and they stayed. In the absense of that feeling, they > will > > go, and they should. The group seems strong. It is growing, > becoming > > the sheltering "oak tree" we once called it in a fairy tale we co- > > wrote in laughter. But it is still very young. Its roots are still > > deepening. It is vulnerable, and will not survive the strong wind > you > > propose. It will begin to wither, like big trees do. Not all at once. > > Just fewer and fewer green branches each season, until it is > but a > > shadow of its former self. > > > > I will not let it happen. The group and its people mean too > much to > > me. If you wish to go, I will support your decision and will love > you > > all the same. I will not try to stop you. But I will not stay and try > > to pretend that the tree is fine. Kochu and SE101 are teachers > and > > brothers; Buttercookie61 has been a steadfast friend and > supporter > > although her views often diverge from ours. But without you, > > something essential will be gone, and I will not stay and act as > if > > it did not happen. > > > > I too will leave, and I will telphone you within the next few days > (I > > am on vacation, and online irregularly) to plan our last great act > > together: Dismantling and closing the group -- just as our first > > great acts together were to create and to save it. We must not > now > > leave it abandoned, a great bloated whale carcass, empty and > sad like > > so many other big, dead . We must put it to rest > with the > > same love and respect that it has always shown to us. We > must work > > together one last time, and do this thing right. It is our duty. > > > > Will people care? Maybe a few, for a while. Maybe more. I > always > > suspect that we made a lot of people happy, more than we'll > ever > > know. A___ will probably be thrilled for a few days, trumpeting > to > > everyone who'll listen that she knew it all along and predicted > > everything -- that she warned me about you; and warned you > about me. > > No one will listen or care, of course, except her usual circle of > > cronies ... and she will soon lose interest and (under whatever > new > > combination of ID's) move on to find new targets for her > negativity > > and ill-will. > > > > Because yes, as I said above, this is a victory for negativity and > > ill will. But hatred can never breed joy. Her victory will still be > > as sterile as the group that she formed to mock us. And our > loss will > > still be as sweet as the group that we built together. > > > > With all warmest wishes -- and yes, with love ... > > > > DB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2004 Report Share Posted October 10, 2004 Yes, thank you, Om Prem. And thank you to all who have expressed their appreciation for the group. It is wonderful to hear. Nora still has not weighed in, online or off, so I do not know what will happen next. I quite honestly do not know why she has chosen this course. I'm truly shocked and dismayed. I am very sure, however, that it has nothing to do with the influence of the members that you named (or any others). As longtime friends and supporters of the group, OmPrem and Chumki, you know we've never had any shortage of would-be spoilers and wreckers. It comes with the territory. Some types of people try to leave their mark in this world by creating; some by destroying. I'm not qualified (or particularly interested) to speculate on the psychology or life experience that caused them to act this way. From the point of view of group moderation, they're just routine trouble. But the latest batch of trouble-seekers were absolute child's play compared to some of their predecessors. Ellen's already sending off- board promises to spread the "terrible truth" about this group (apparently that we're snobby, abusive, exclusivist, patriarchal, anti-feminist; you name the evil, we're guilty of it in her book ... a lot of hatred to muster up in a week and a half of membership). She's signing herself "Ma Kali," I guess to suggest that she fancies herself a force of righteous destruction. Very dramatic and all, but unfortunately nothing new. The thing is, it's just background noise. The real work of the group is what we're all trying to save here. Kochu and SE101 are pressing me to reconsider. I'll be happy to ... but not until Nora deigns to revisit the scene. No hit-and-runs allowed. Like all of us, she has to confront the repercussions and implications of her acts and decisions. Thanks again for the kind words. I've read everyone's, and will reply to all in time, as the situation becomes clearer. Aum MAtangyai NamaH DB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2004 Report Share Posted October 10, 2004 Y know "Asasana" also means Butt? *smile* sunelectric101 <ouranian wrote: Namaste Omprem, Thanks for your voice of reason and gentle reminders. The proper mindset is essential in dealing with the more disruptive element of this group (and life in general. Timely and appropriate. <<Sadhana includes forbearance, compassion equinimity, serenity, endurance, and faith>> (SIGH) Time to go dust off the Asana. Cheers, SE101 , "omprem" <omprem> wrote: > > "I too will leave, and I will telphone you within the next few days (I > am on vacation, and online irregularly) to plan our last great act > together: Dismantling and closing the group -- just as our first > great acts together were to create and to save it. We must not > now leave it abandoned, a great bloated whale carcass, empty > and sad like so many other big, dead . We must > put it to rest with the same love and respect that it has always > shown to us. We must work together one last time, and do this > thing right. It is our duty." > > > It is unbelievable to me that Nora would choose to leave this > group and that DB would join with her in closing down this > group, all because of a few twisted individuals who are so > consumed with hatred that they reject all attempts from the > members to help lift their load and instead seek to infect all > others with their blighted worldview. > > A major part of Sadhana is to stand apart from the events of the > world, to not engage those events in the manner that they > present themselves but to rise above ego and emotion and to > inject the divine into one's perception. > > One cannot be responsible for the actions of others, that leads to > co-dependency. But one can be responsible for their own > actions and thoughts. Indeed, our only responsibility is to make > ourselves into fit vehicles for coming into the presence of the > Divine. It is sadhana that does that. > > Sadhana includes forbearance, compassion equinimity, > serenity, endurance, and faith. > > Please, Nora and DB, do not take this abuse by the hateful > handful of the group personally. It is pointless to engage them > or even listen to them. > > I know that you do not bar people from this club, but there are > other alternatives to dealing with the hateful rants of such as > Ellen and Lilith. All of us could just refuse to respond to their > hateful rants. We cannot take on their responsibility for removing > the obstacles to their spiritual growth. Ignoring them would be > just as effective as barring them and more humane. You could > also delete their posts. They would soon grow tired of being > ignored and slink back to the depths from which they came. > > If you choose to shut this club down, well, the Divine works in > mysterious ways. I just want to thank both of you and the other > moderators for your diligent and thoughtful efforts in helping > others to recognize their own divinity. > > You both have my highest regards now and for the future. > > So Ham > > Omprem > > , "Devi Bhakta" > <devi_bhakta> wrote: > > > > > > Nora wrote: "This shall be my last message for this board and > I shall > > not respond anymore, and this is what I have to say." > > > > Dear Nora: > > > > Last night, I received a call from my dear old friend, P___. He > was > > at a hotel. His marriage is breaking up. Anna was on the cell > phone > > with E____, his wife. We have all been good friends for years, > long > > before we all married and settled down. They have a gorgeous > > home, beautiful young daughters, excellent professions. And > now that > > is unraveling. It was in my dreams all night as I slept, and it > > weighed heavily on my thoughts this morning as I woke. > > > > Then I logged into and found this from you. It didn't even > > shock me; it just fit the mood. As with P___ and E___'s > marriage > > dissolving before their (and my) eyes, it represents the victory > of > > negativity and ill-will over positivity and good works. > > > > Am I being overly dramatic? Maybe, maybe not. But indulge me > for a > > moment, all right? We are not married, of course. You have > your > > S____, I have my A___. We have our lives. But in this project of > > Shakti Sadhana, we really are "married" -- in the sense that it's > > something enduring and beautiful that we built together with > love and > > passion, laughter and tears. Together we faced all enemies, > and > > emerged scarred but unbeaten. We explored new worlds, > learned > > together, made mistakes together -- but always growing wiser > and > > stronger. > > > > I am not saying this to make you stay if you do not want to stay. > I > > am not saying it to make you feel bad. I celebrate those years > in my > > heart, and will cherish them always. If it wasn't meant to last, > so > > be it. Better to separate than to stay together in a poisoned > > atmosphere of resentment and mistrust. The group is Devi's > and She is > > its only raison d'etre. > > > > But we are its twin human poles. For better or for worse, our > > personalities, in combination, defined the place. People felt the > > love and passion we brought to the group, the time we were > willing to > > invest -- and they stayed. In the absense of that feeling, they > will > > go, and they should. The group seems strong. It is growing, > becoming > > the sheltering "oak tree" we once called it in a fairy tale we co- > > wrote in laughter. But it is still very young. Its roots are still > > deepening. It is vulnerable, and will not survive the strong wind > you > > propose. It will begin to wither, like big trees do. Not all at once. > > Just fewer and fewer green branches each season, until it is > but a > > shadow of its former self. > > > > I will not let it happen. The group and its people mean too > much to > > me. If you wish to go, I will support your decision and will love > you > > all the same. I will not try to stop you. But I will not stay and try > > to pretend that the tree is fine. Kochu and SE101 are teachers > and > > brothers; Buttercookie61 has been a steadfast friend and > supporter > > although her views often diverge from ours. But without you, > > something essential will be gone, and I will not stay and act as > if > > it did not happen. > > > > I too will leave, and I will telphone you within the next few days > (I > > am on vacation, and online irregularly) to plan our last great act > > together: Dismantling and closing the group -- just as our first > > great acts together were to create and to save it. We must not > now > > leave it abandoned, a great bloated whale carcass, empty and > sad like > > so many other big, dead . We must put it to rest > with the > > same love and respect that it has always shown to us. We > must work > > together one last time, and do this thing right. It is our duty. > > > > Will people care? Maybe a few, for a while. Maybe more. I > always > > suspect that we made a lot of people happy, more than we'll > ever > > know. A___ will probably be thrilled for a few days, trumpeting > to > > everyone who'll listen that she knew it all along and predicted > > everything -- that she warned me about you; and warned you > about me. > > No one will listen or care, of course, except her usual circle of > > cronies ... and she will soon lose interest and (under whatever > new > > combination of ID's) move on to find new targets for her > negativity > > and ill-will. > > > > Because yes, as I said above, this is a victory for negativity and > > ill will. But hatred can never breed joy. Her victory will still be > > as sterile as the group that she formed to mock us. And our > loss will > > still be as sweet as the group that we built together. > > > > With all warmest wishes -- and yes, with love ... > > > > DB / vote. - Register online to vote today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2004 Report Share Posted October 10, 2004 In a message dated 10/9/2004 9:43:21 PM Mountain Daylight Time, devi_bhakta writes: > Ellen's already sending off- > board promises to spread the "terrible truth" about this group > (apparently that we're snobby, abusive, exclusivist, patriarchal, > anti-feminist; you name the evil, we're guilty of it in her book ... > a lot of hatred to muster up in a week and a half of membership). > She's signing herself "Ma Kali," I guess to suggest that she fancies > herself a force of righteous destruction. Very dramatic and all, but > unfortunately nothing new. > This seems to me to be in conflict with Ellen's statement that she was going to add Nora to her "prayer bowl" -- When she said that, my gut felt fear for Nora. It felt like Bad energy to me. I hope people here don't find this superstitious thinking. But I immediately sent Nora protection energy and maybe everyone on this group is already doing that and certainly it helps that you all love Nora. I suggest that everyone take the focus OFF Ellen and put your focus to sending PROTECTION to Nora. Visualize Nora in a field of protection that does NOT allow Ellen's spiritual influence. Just visualize during our meditations, a Golden glob of Light surrounding Nora. For those of you who don't know me well, I have my own discussion lists about the Goddess -- a learning group. My group is small compared to Shakt_Sadhana group who I think of as like a Big Sister in the internet world. Ellen is acting out of her own pain and confusion which she is to terrified to own right now, as Nora so aptly challanged her on. I looked at her picture on the member profiles at http://profiles./ellen_michelle2001 and it is shocking to look at her as she looks like an average woman, except for what I sense as a fearfulness. If we focus on Ellen with our anger, it will only fuel her. As OmPrem pointed out, she is not open to healing from this group NOR does she want it, so in my own humble opinion, all one can do is recognize she is a person in pain who needs healing who is lashing out and summon absolute NEUTRALITY (as I am now wishing I had done sooner regarding her) and NOT try to engage her further. I am now in a quandary as to whether or not to take her off my group, since she joined at my invitation and, out of loyalty to this group and to Nora I was going to just remove her without comment. But then I looked at her photo in , and I see what I perceive as a frightened woman. She hasn't spoken up on my group yet, so now I feel uncertain. I remember a time when I felt ready to chuck it all with my group and did one time. I'm sorry to see somebody else going through any kind of similar pain. A psychic reader for me at the time told me she saw negative attachments in the spirit world, trying to drain and unsettle me. It took me a long time to deal with it in silence and I never shared the info with my group as I was in such feelings of distrust. And Just Think how NICE it would be, if an entire group of nearly 2000 members are sending Nora a TREMENDOUS SPIRITUAL SHIELD OF LOVE AND LIGHT to help her sort through this painful and difficult time. Well, That's my two cents. Nora is a woman of stature, intelligence and spirit and she'll sort this all through in her own time and come to her own conclusions. It can't hurt for those who love her to visualize her surrounding by LOVE, and shielded in LOVING LIGHT. Blessings of the Goddess, Cathie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2004 Report Share Posted October 10, 2004 In a message dated 10/10/2004 1:11:26 PM Mountain Daylight Time, ammasmon writes: > Hi Omprem, > > Thanks for your words of wisdom here. > > But, I must add that I did not find Lilith to be hateful, just > defensive at a point in time. > > Jai Ma! I feel that a bunch of folk have been defensive at a point in time, myself included, and not only newcomers. Or maybe defensive is the wrong word -- maybe the correct word is "riled" (stirred up into an agitated excitement that has nervousness at it's root). I feel when we resort to dualistic thinking (i.e. one group is all bad, and the other is all good. one person is the evil one, and the other is all good.), such nervousness is inevitible because it becomes essential to remain identified with the designated "safe" group. In this world, we all have been Hurt by dualistic thinking in so many ways. Either Or Thinking. Either all us men, or all us women. One or the other. We've all been put here on this earth by ONE Universal Being, who manifests to us imaginally with different Faces, to each in a language that He/She can understand. Hinduism is one very beautiful path to Divinity -- highly evolved and richly complex -- whether it has been passed down through males, females or both. Whether it is males, females or both that are responsible for it's continuance. Peace, Love and Religious Freedom, Cathie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2004 Report Share Posted October 10, 2004 , "omprem" <omprem> wrote: > > It is unbelievable to me that Nora would choose to leave this > group and that DB would join with her in closing down this > group, all because of a few twisted individuals who are so > consumed with hatred that they reject all attempts from the > members to help lift their load and instead seek to infect all > others with their blighted worldview. > > A major part of Sadhana is to stand apart from the events of the > world, to not engage those events in the manner that they > present themselves but to rise above ego and emotion and to > inject the divine into one's perception. > > One cannot be responsible for the actions of others, that leads to > co-dependency. But one can be responsible for their own > actions and thoughts. Indeed, our only responsibility is to make > ourselves into fit vehicles for coming into the presence of the > Divine. It is sadhana that does that. > > Sadhana includes forbearance, compassion equinimity, > serenity, endurance, and faith. > > Please, Nora and DB, do not take this abuse by the hateful > handful of the group personally. It is pointless to engage them > or even listen to them. > > I know that you do not bar people from this club, but there are > other alternatives to dealing with the hateful rants of such as > Ellen and Lilith. All of us could just refuse to respond to their > hateful rants. We cannot take on their responsibility for removing > the obstacles to their spiritual growth. Ignoring them would be > just as effective as barring them and more humane. You could > also delete their posts. They would soon grow tired of being > ignored and slink back to the depths from which they came. > > If you choose to shut this club down, well, the Divine works in > mysterious ways. I just want to thank both of you and the other > moderators for your diligent and thoughtful efforts in helping > others to recognize their own divinity. > > You both have my highest regards now and for the future. > > So Ham > > Omprem Hi Omprem, Thanks for your words of wisdom here. But, I must add that I did not find Lilith to be hateful, just defensive at a point in time. Jai Ma! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2004 Report Share Posted October 10, 2004 Devi_bhakta, Please do reconsider to stay back. I have a feeling that Nora meant she wont write anymore on this patriarchy thread; I think many people (certainly myself) have benefitted from your contributions to this group and it would be a total loss for us if you exit the group. May I also suggest that we have a greater focus on the topics of discussion here at SS; time and again I am seeing that we tangentially take off on unrelated topics such as feminism, patriarchy etc (which IMO has nothing to do with Shakti Sadhana, again just my opinion). Sincerely -yogaman > > Yes, thank you, Om Prem. And thank you to all who have expressed > their appreciation for the group. It is wonderful to hear. > > Nora still has not weighed in, online or off, so I do not know what > will happen next. I quite honestly do not know why she has chosen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2004 Report Share Posted October 10, 2004 Dear All: Funny how you write stuff and people all interpret it differently, according to their various agendas. At no time have I experienced the emotions of "anger", "hatefulness", or "defensiveness" while writing any of my letters or responses to this site,("mild annoyance" is as good as it gets, sorry!) yet they have all been interpreted as such! Which, as I have pointed out before, says more about the person making the particular interpretation than about me.. Ellen definitely has an agenda, no doubt, and tends toward the militant, but she is articulate and makes some excellent points, actually, though there is definitely some question as to whether this forum is the appropriate venue for such concerns! However, I personally, always see such people as a challenge, rather than as a threat... It never ceases to amaze me how people crumble so easily and take so personally something like a mere e-mail from a relative stranger! This fantastic group is about ready to totter and fall because someone is upset over a few aggressive e-mails! Where would we all be if Durga turned and ran away from Mahishasura and his legions, instead of rising to the challenge? Where's that fighting spirit? If a few e-mails can crumble that, what about when life itself comes to kick your butt? The people who teach us the most are not those that agree with us, but those that cause us to have to fight for our beliefs, because then we are forced to think and stretch and grow, not stagnate.It is in this light that I, personally, take on all comers in forums such as this. And it is in this same spirit that I challenge others, as well. Lilith M. --- SophiasHeaven wrote: > In a message dated 10/10/2004 1:11:26 PM Mountain > Daylight Time, > ammasmon writes: > > > Hi Omprem, > > > > Thanks for your words of wisdom here. > > > > But, I must add that I did not find Lilith to be > hateful, just > > defensive at a point in time. > > > > Jai Ma! > > I feel that a bunch of folk have been defensive at a > point in time, myself > included, and not only newcomers. > > Or maybe defensive is the wrong word -- maybe the > correct word is "riled" > (stirred up into an agitated excitement that has > nervousness at it's root). > > I feel when we resort to dualistic thinking (i.e. > one group is all bad, and > the other is all good. one person is the evil one, > and the other is all > good.), such nervousness is inevitible because it > becomes essential to remain > identified with the designated "safe" group. > > In this world, we all have been Hurt by dualistic > thinking in so many ways. > Either Or Thinking. Either all us men, or all us > women. One or the other. > > We've all been put here on this earth by ONE > Universal Being, who manifests > to us imaginally with different Faces, to each in a > language that He/She can > understand. > > Hinduism is one very beautiful path to Divinity -- > highly evolved and richly > complex -- > whether it has been passed down through males, > females or both. Whether it > is males, females or both that are responsible for > it's continuance. > > Peace, Love and Religious Freedom, > Cathie > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > _______________________________ Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 , Lili Masamura <sephirah5> wrote: > > Dear All: > Funny how you write stuff and people all interpret it > differently, according to their various agendas. At no > time have I experienced the emotions of "anger", > "hatefulness", or "defensiveness" while writing any of > my letters or responses to this site,("mild annoyance" > is as good as it gets, sorry!) yet they have all been > interpreted as such! Dear Lilith, Since your post came here as a response to mine, let me clarify that I have no "agenda" on you, or anybody else, or anything else. My only agenda (without the quotes) is to be sincere while being on the path, and to get 'there' while living (worldly definition of the term). You say "mild annoyance", I say "defensive". I guess it's each one's perception, and while there is certainly a benefit in trying to find the truth (enlightened perspective perhaps), I guess it's not worth the effort (lots of back-and-forth posts and chances of irritability to selves or other members of the group, and lots of TIME spent on the same). so let's agree to disagree, and I always hope that such conflicts will one day get resolved in Suchness. peace. . By the way, a curious question. Is "mild annoyance" ok for someone who claims (s)he has attained? I will be honest here; I am sceptical of your assertion on attainment, but I am willing to keep an open mind and see for myself. the following q's come from that background. What was the nature of the annoyance? a feeling of irritation because (as Omprem would have put it) you did not understand the situation, or was it a put on for the sake of the world (aka lila)? If the former, why did the temporary lack of clarity happen? sounds contradictory to attainment, to me. if the latter, what is the purpose of such put ons? if neither, what is it then, and why? Sincerely. Jai Ma! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 "I, personally, take on all comers in forums such as this." Why do you find it necessary to 'take on all comers'? Why can you not simply present your beliefs and discuss in a calm, rational and sattvic manner whatever arises from that presentation? Why do you feel that you have to aggressively respond to posts with which you disagree? Could you not simply talk about why you disagree with what has been said? Dialogue is more useful for approaching truth than monologue. Enquiry toward Truth is useful than debate with an intention to win. No one here has the absolute truth. We are all like blind people trying to describe an elelphant by touch. One touches the tail and thinks the elephant is long and skinny. One touches the tusk and thinks the elephant is hard and smooth. Another touches the ear and thinks the elephant is shaped like a manta ray. Another toucher the leg and thinks the elephant is like a tree. Yet another got turned around and is feeling some other object and thinking it is the elephant. They all stop their search as soon as they can formulate a single idea of the elephant but none of them bothers to know the entire elephant. This is the ego at work. No body here knows the entire elephant either. We may know a part of the Truth, or a method for arriving at the Truth or we may dealing with darkness and believing it is the Truth. We talk about what we think we know and hopefully listen to the replies and see if they lead us to refine or expand our knowledge or lead us to a methodology for doing so. If we 'take on all comers', first, we are not actually listening to what is being said and, second, we not leaving ourselves open to spiritual development. We are only guarding our current misconceptions and staying mired in, at best, a distortion of truth, at worst, inabysmal ignorance. We want to guard against taking a sledgehammer to a task that requires a scalpel. Omprem , Lili Masamura <sephirah5> wrote: > > Dear All: > Funny how you write stuff and people all interpret it > differently, according to their various agendas. At no > time have I experienced the emotions of "anger", > "hatefulness", or "defensiveness" while writing any of > my letters or responses to this site,("mild annoyance" > is as good as it gets, sorry!) yet they have all been > interpreted as such! Which, as I have pointed out > before, says more about the person making the > particular interpretation than about me.. Ellen > definitely has an agenda, no doubt, and tends toward > the militant, but she is articulate and makes some > excellent points, actually, though there is definitely > some question as to whether this forum is the > appropriate venue for such concerns! However, I > personally, always see such people as a challenge, > rather than as a threat... It never ceases to amaze me > how people crumble so easily and take so personally > something like a mere e-mail from a relative stranger! > This fantastic group is about ready to totter and fall > because someone is upset over a few aggressive > e-mails! Where would we all be if Durga turned and ran > away from Mahishasura and his legions, instead of > rising to the challenge? Where's that fighting spirit? > If a few e-mails can crumble that, what about when > life itself comes to kick your butt? The people who > teach us the most are not those that agree with us, > but those that cause us to have to fight for our > beliefs, because then we are forced to think and > stretch and grow, not stagnate.It is in this light > that I, personally, take on all comers in forums such > as this. And it is in this same spirit that I > challenge others, as well. > Lilith M. > > --- SophiasHeaven@a... wrote: > > > In a message dated 10/10/2004 1:11:26 PM Mountain > > Daylight Time, > > ammasmon@s... writes: > > > > > Hi Omprem, > > > > > > Thanks for your words of wisdom here. > > > > > > But, I must add that I did not find Lilith to be > > hateful, just > > > defensive at a point in time. > > > > > > Jai Ma! > > > > I feel that a bunch of folk have been defensive at a > > point in time, myself > > included, and not only newcomers. > > > > Or maybe defensive is the wrong word -- maybe the > > correct word is "riled" > > (stirred up into an agitated excitement that has > > nervousness at it's root). > > > > I feel when we resort to dualistic thinking (i.e. > > one group is all bad, and > > the other is all good. one person is the evil one, > > and the other is all > > good.), such nervousness is inevitible because it > > becomes essential to remain > > identified with the designated "safe" group. > > > > In this world, we all have been Hurt by dualistic > > thinking in so many ways. > > Either Or Thinking. Either all us men, or all us > > women. One or the other. > > > > We've all been put here on this earth by ONE > > Universal Being, who manifests > > to us imaginally with different Faces, to each in a > > language that He/She can > > understand. > > > > Hinduism is one very beautiful path to Divinity -- > > highly evolved and richly > > complex -- > > whether it has been passed down through males, > > females or both. Whether it > > is males, females or both that are responsible for > > it's continuance. > > > > Peace, Love and Religious Freedom, > > Cathie > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > _______________________________ > > Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. > http://messenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 "By the way, a curious question. Is "mild annoyance" ok for someone who claims (s)he has attained?" LOL. Succinct and to the point. Omprem , "manoj_menon" <ammasmon@s...> wrote: > > > , Lili Masamura <sephirah5> > wrote: > > > > Dear All: > > Funny how you write stuff and people all interpret it > > differently, according to their various agendas. At no > > time have I experienced the emotions of "anger", > > "hatefulness", or "defensiveness" while writing any of > > my letters or responses to this site,("mild annoyance" > > is as good as it gets, sorry!) yet they have all been > > interpreted as such! > > Dear Lilith, > > Since your post came here as a response to mine, let me clarify that > I have no "agenda" on you, or anybody else, or anything else. My only > agenda (without the quotes) is to be sincere while being on the path, > and to get 'there' while living (worldly definition of the term). > > You say "mild annoyance", I say "defensive". I guess it's each one's > perception, and while there is certainly a benefit in trying to find > the truth (enlightened perspective perhaps), I guess it's not worth > the effort (lots of back-and-forth posts and chances of irritability > to selves or other members of the group, and lots of TIME spent on > the same). so let's agree to disagree, and I always hope that such > conflicts will one day get resolved in Suchness. peace. . > > By the way, a curious question. Is "mild annoyance" ok for someone > who claims (s)he has attained? > > I will be honest here; I am sceptical of your assertion on > attainment, but I am willing to keep an open mind and see for myself. > the following q's come from that background. > > What was the nature of the annoyance? a feeling of irritation because > (as Omprem would have put it) you did not understand the situation, > or was it a put on for the sake of the world (aka lila)? > > If the former, why did the temporary lack of clarity happen? sounds > contradictory to attainment, to me. > > if the latter, what is the purpose of such put ons? > > if neither, what is it then, and why? > > Sincerely. > > Jai Ma! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 --- manoj_menon <ammasmon wrote: > Dear Lilith, > You say "mild annoyance", I say "defensive". I guess > it's each one's perception...so let's agree to disagree, and I always hope that such conflicts will one day get resolved in Suchness. peace. . ################################################## There is no question of conflict because there never was one to begin with. ############################################### > > By the way, a curious question. Is "mild annoyance" > ok for someone > who claims (s)he has attained? ################################################# Why not? One does not turn into a feelingless zombie as a result. In fact, one is much better able to control one's emotional reactions to things mundane and can choose to act on them or not act, as one sees fit. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$4 > > I will be honest here; I am sceptical of your > assertion on > attainment, but I am willing to keep an open mind > and see for myself. > the following q's come from that background. > > What was the nature of the annoyance? a feeling of > irritation because > (as Omprem would have put it) you did not understand > the situation, > or was it a put on for the sake of the world (aka > lila)? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ I was mostly annoyed at myself for the lack of clarity in my writing that had led everyone to the conclusions it did. Of course, one keeps in mind that there are always those who have their own agendas, and who will choose to misunderstand, no matter how eloquently or clearly something is phrased. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$4 > > If the former, why did the temporary lack of clarity > happen? sounds > contradictory to attainment, to me. ################################################# Well, everyone has their own ideas about what constitutes proper "attainment" behaviour patterns, most of which are erroneous. I had no idea myself, as I said, until I had read the stories of others who had attained and saw how it was for them, and that my own experiences were along the same lines. Ramakrishna Paramahansa had the same problem, simply because his behaviour was not along the lines of what most people thought of as "enlightened", yet, one has only to read his history to see that he was indeed a Master. There are many such people whose behaviour was far and away from anything like conventional, who were acclaimed as "holy" in their lifetimes, or afterwards. What about Durvasas, the grouchy Rishi? Or Shiva, the Deity who sits about in burning grounds, naked, ash-smeared and whacked on ganja? Many unlikely images of enlightenment exist in Vedic mythology! ################################################## > > if the latter, what is the purpose of such put ons? > > if neither, what is it then, and why? ################################################# Now you know. Lilith M. ############################################# > > Sincerely. > > Jai Ma! > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 --- omprem <omprem wrote: > I know that you do not bar people from this club, > but there are > other alternatives to dealing with the hateful rants > of such as > Ellen and Lilith. All of us could just refuse to > respond to their > hateful rants. We cannot take on their > responsibility for removing > the obstacles to their spiritual growth. Ignoring > them would be > just as effective as barring them and more humane. > You could > also delete their posts. They would soon grow tired > of being > ignored and slink back to the depths from which they > came. ################################################ It is an odd fact that I have heard exactly similar poison from another would-be spiritual poo-bah on another site, someone calling herself "The Revealer", who was all holy sweetness and light as long as everyone was lined up at her feet, waiting for her pearls of wisdom, but the moment someone else with knowledge showed up, the venom came out and her true nature and agenda was "revealed" for all to see! Careful, swami, your halo is slipping... Lilith M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 Actually, I found that Ellen made some excellent points, though I did have my doubts as to whether this was the proper forum for them. Debates over gender are simply tiresome, and lead nowhere, and letting your hangups dictate your spiritual agenda will limit you, which means no progress can be made until those obstacles are dealt with. It is absolutely NO USE making changes on the material level and not on the spiritual level, because it will all eventually slip back to where it was before; this is the nature of Tamas.Worship of the Mother leads you to the Father, it is an inevitable progression, just as a child born in the world required an ejaculating penis and a vagina getting together on some level somewhere! The Shiva Lingam is not Shiva alone, it is the Yoni and the Lingam in conjunction with each other that brings about Creation. Lilith M. --- manoj_menon <ammasmon wrote: > Hi Omprem, > > Thanks for your words of wisdom here. > > But, I must add that I did not find Lilith to be > hateful, just > defensive at a point in time. > > Jai Ma! > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Cathie, Thank you for your post below. This group is so volatile I have ceased reading it except ocassionally. Too much attack and defense, so many fierce attachments all around, so many consumed by semantics and opportunities to prove themselves; it's distracting, and draining. It is difficult indeed to be a student (or a teacher), in the midst of such turmoil. I assume "attained" ones mind this no more or less than a quiet temple but I think most people here are still students on some level. But a pearl is a pearl whether found in a non-tidy barnyard or lost in a jeweled box. So I thank you. Blessings Seed Crystal , SophiasHeaven@a... wrote: > In a message dated 10/10/2004 1:11:26 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > ammasmon@s... writes: > > > Hi Omprem, > > > > Thanks for your words of wisdom here. > > > > But, I must add that I did not find Lilith to be hateful, just > > defensive at a point in time. > > > > Jai Ma! > > I feel that a bunch of folk have been defensive at a point in time, myself > included, and not only newcomers. > > Or maybe defensive is the wrong word -- maybe the correct word is "riled" > (stirred up into an agitated excitement that has nervousness at it's root). > > I feel when we resort to dualistic thinking (i.e. one group is all bad, and > the other is all good. one person is the evil one, and the other is all > good.), such nervousness is inevitible because it becomes essential to remain > identified with the designated "safe" group. > > In this world, we all have been Hurt by dualistic thinking in so many ways. > Either Or Thinking. Either all us men, or all us women. One or the other. > > We've all been put here on this earth by ONE Universal Being, who manifests > to us imaginally with different Faces, to each in a language that He/She can > understand. > > Hinduism is one very beautiful path to Divinity -- highly evolved and richly > complex -- > whether it has been passed down through males, females or both. Whether it > is males, females or both that are responsible for it's continuance. > > Peace, Love and Religious Freedom, > Cathie > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Yes, I agree, it does get tiresome, particularly when people are not arguing to any real end, but simply for the sake of arguing. And BTW, being "attained" does not mean one stops learning, one continues to learn, just on more levels than the ones apparent to most. Sorta like university as compared to kindergarten. As long as one is incarnated, the lessons NEVER end, they just become more subtle. Lilith M. --- seed_crystal <seed_crystal wrote: > > > Cathie, Thank you for your post below. > > This group is so volatile I have ceased reading it > except > ocassionally. Too much attack and defense, so many > fierce > attachments all around, so many consumed by > semantics and > opportunities to prove themselves; it's distracting, > and draining. > It is difficult indeed to be a student (or a > teacher), in the midst > of such turmoil. I assume "attained" ones mind > this no more or > less than a quiet temple but I think most people > here are still > students on some level. > > But a pearl is a pearl whether found in a non-tidy > barnyard or lost > in a jeweled box. So I thank you. > > Blessings > Seed Crystal > > , > SophiasHeaven@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 10/10/2004 1:11:26 PM Mountain > Daylight Time, > > ammasmon@s... writes: > > > > > Hi Omprem, > > > > > > Thanks for your words of wisdom here. > > > > > > But, I must add that I did not find Lilith to be > hateful, just > > > defensive at a point in time. > > > > > > Jai Ma! > > > > I feel that a bunch of folk have been defensive at > a point in > time, myself > > included, and not only newcomers. > > > > Or maybe defensive is the wrong word -- maybe the > correct word > is "riled" > > (stirred up into an agitated excitement that has > nervousness at > it's root). > > > > I feel when we resort to dualistic thinking (i.e. > one group is all > bad, and > > the other is all good. one person is the evil > one, and the other > is all > > good.), such nervousness is inevitible because it > becomes > essential to remain > > identified with the designated "safe" group. > > > > In this world, we all have been Hurt by dualistic > thinking in so > many ways. > > Either Or Thinking. Either all us men, or all us > women. One or > the other. > > > > We've all been put here on this earth by ONE > Universal Being, who > manifests > > to us imaginally with different Faces, to each in > a language that > He/She can > > understand. > > > > Hinduism is one very beautiful path to Divinity -- > highly evolved > and richly > > complex -- > > whether it has been passed down through males, > females or both. > Whether it > > is males, females or both that are responsible for > it's > continuance. > > > > Peace, Love and Religious Freedom, > > Cathie > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > Mail - You care about security. So do we. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 I agree with you Seed Crystal. I experience most of the people in this group as being more interest in arm wrestling about "spirituality", rather than experiencing spirituality. I enjoy Mongo and Seed Crystal, they are the wheat separated from the chaff. seed_crystal <seed_crystal wrote: This group is so volatile I have ceased reading it except ocassionally. Too much attack and defense, so many fierce attachments all around, so many consumed by semantics and opportunities to prove themselves; it's distracting, and draining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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