Guest guest Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 >In fact if U put anyone above God that is idolatry. True Guru >won`t allow U to say such things even. Because true Guru knows >God. I said, he is respected above, not above. Destination is above the guide, but guide is respected above destination as without him, it's way harder to get there. (that's just how i beleive, it's okay to have differences, i'm not arguing mine is right) True Guru doesn't say he should be respected, but a true disciple will respect him. >Guru's spiritual power (tapas) can be transferred to his >disciple if guru wishes just like a rich person financially >helps his poor relatives. It's as simple as that. >Not right analogy. God`s grace and love isn`t some unconcious >material such as money is. Guru may pray and U will be blessed >by God. As a person dear to God he can bring U near Him. >What U tell about tapasya-shakti sound similar to medieval >catholic idea of indulgencia - which was serving earning money >purpose as well . I compared tapas with money so it'd be easier to understand. I know curtain of self-logic comes in front of everything as our mind says "I'm right, others are not, i read so many books....". Your idea of Shaktipaat intend to say that no one can store spiritual energy in our body, so no transfer of energy. Or may be you intend to say Guru has God's power that he can transform to his disciple(that'll contradict ur theory). If Guru just prays God, what better he than us, as u pointed he doesn't have any power to transfer. So getting close to God means nothing except praying? How do u define getting close to god? Praying for 5 yrs, 10yrs? Hindu books say getting close to god increases our spiritual power ultimately merging with god. Your theory of praying may be partially correct for Bhaktiyoga lines but still the prayer gets power otherwise praying is useless. Refer to Dadhichi rishi who gave his spiritually energized skeleton to make weapons to fight demons. Spiritual energy can be stored in ones body and mind that can be transferred to others. Begging is not correct interpretation of attaining energy through hard sadhana and tapasya. > from www.siddhashram.org >U know "Siddhashram" makes good business out of such ideas. It >is a commercial but not spiritual organization. Of course >whatever they write and teach is just basis for money earning - >through fraud . I agree that there are many spiritual gurus and organizations just to make money from dillusion. Money is needed even to those dedicated to spirituality to run their organization. People are putting their time just as we are putting our time for a full-time job. You said Guru is close to god, so what if a guru opens one institute to organize a systematic program to give his knowledge to others? doesn't he need some money to run it? Or God will shower him? Don't say "Fraud" to anyone unless you have proof. Your logic doesn't have any right to make someone fraud. At least those organizations are doing a better job of giving troubled people a way to find peace and solace through spiritual knowledge and practices. There are thieves and robbers in the world, but it is not logical to generalise that everyone is a thief. So let's not use hard words to anyone. vote. - Register online to vote today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 In a message dated 10/24/2004 3:56:27 AM Mountain Daylight Time, yogiman2003 writes: > Your idea of Shaktipaat intend to say that no one can store spiritual > energy in our body, so no transfer of energy. Or may be you intend to say Guru > has God's power that he can transform to his disciple(that'll contradict ur > theory). > > The ability to transfer consciousness energy is something we all can do. The trick is that we can only do this in so far as we have become conscious ourselves. Just like a mother transfers her own consciousness about the world to a little child, and the child grows in consciousness and experience. If the mother has hangups, they will also be transferred to the child. That's why one has to be careful who one chooses for a teacher -- just like a little child takes care in being born, to choose parents who will best suit that child's individual karma needs for spiritual growth. Energy of consciousness can't be transferred to just anyone: only somebody who is ready for it -- who is at a stage of spiritual development to be able to handle it. If a mother tries to impart her child with consciousness of Algebra, before the child has learned to count, nothing will come of it. Spiritual healers transfer spiritual energy to their patients all the time, which results in healings of all sorts. Even a Reiki Master can do this but they channel the energy of the Divine through them and not the energy of their own consciousness.. Some have more spiritual energy developed/raised in their body as they progress and consciousness allows it. I believe it is consciousness that attains to the Divine, and only that energy is retained within the body which consciousness will allow. Why would a guru waste his effort transferring energy of consciousness to somebody who isn't ready for it? It's a waste of effort on the guru/teacher/s part to do so. If a teacher/guru is such a highly conscious individual, he/she will know how much energy and when to transfer to the student -- he/she will be able to feel the student's capacity in consciousness even when they are far apart. Barbara Brennan, in Hands of Light, talks about how when consciousness is raised through meditation or by other methods, that the chakras begin to open and channel more energy through them on a steady basis, and all energy that passes through the body must be processed by consciousness or it can lead to trouble by encountering blocks within the body (isn't this what they call premature kundalini rising? -- it causes probelms because there still remain too many consciousness blocks on the body) (yes, consciousness in the body -- ) If the guru, or anybody, gave too much spiritual energy to any person at any time who was not ready for it, either the energy would make them mad cuz they wouldhn't be prepared for it, or the energy would not "take" -- A guru, or a spiritual healer, has to use Wisdom to know how much energy and when to transfer certain lessons to the disciple/patient. Energy is dynamic it moves in the body ande causes change through consciousness. Energy of a teacher flows through the body and as it does, consciousness is changed. It is the fact that consciousness is changed that makes all the difference. Even across long distances, such a teacher can send energy of consciousness to her student, raising consciousness. If a guru could immediately transfer all the energy of attainment to the student in one dose, the guru would not be necessary anymore after that, and the concept of studying with a guru would be meaningless because all one would need is one session with the guru and it would be over with. Consciousness/energy can only be transferred in sofar as the person who accepts the energy/consciousness is ready to attain it, and no more, and not sooner. Even a spiritual healer works with a patient in sessions, channeling energy of the Divine into the patient in ways and locations that will bring about healing, but it doesn't just heal the body, the consciousness raises in the process and the energy initiates the patient into an expansion of consciousness that may take some time for the patient to process. Then when it is processed, they go back in for another session. If they fail to process the energy at any phase, they will not make progress in healing, and will most likely abandon the process. Peace, Cathie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Jay maa, Thanks for the enlighthening thoughts you have given: 1. Energy of consciousness can't be transferred to just anyone: only somebody who is ready for it -- who is at a stage of spiritual development to be able to handle it. If a mother tries to impart her child with consciousness of Algebra, before the child has learned to count, nothing will come of it. 2. Why would a guru waste his effort transferring energy of consciousness to somebody who isn't ready for it? It's a waste of effort on the guru/teacher/s part to do so. If a teacher/guru is such a highly conscious individual, he/she will know how much energy and when to transfer to the student -- he/she will be able to feel the student's capacity in consciousness even when they are far apart. (Mirah) _________ALL-NEW Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 @arjuna, I think you may have been misinformed or only heard from impatient seekers. I know quite a few who found a true guru and have become highly elevated sadhaks from siddhashram.org. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 @sankara No offense taken. I appreciate your humility. My reply perhaps was more defensive as I have strong faith towards Guruji who left his physical body few yrs ago. ---sankara wrote--- > I did not make that statement without basis. > I made it seriously to stimulate a discussion on what can be done and cannot be done with mantra and tantra. I am aware that advertising business has it's influence, but i believe sadhanas, mantra, tantra actually work if done properly. Siddhashram has unveiled so many sadhanas to public that is worth appreciating. If you really want to challenge, do some sadhanas and see if they work or not. I hope you believe in mantra, tantra to some extent if not fully. > Fortunately I know how to deal with my problems and I really did not ask for personal gain. that's great > so you have no firsthand knowledge. Manifesting deities? Whats so great about it? Then do what? Was it material progress or spiritual progress that they were after? Are you sure they manifested? And Can they manifest for others to see? What did they gain? > Manifesting deities is a great achievement in spiritual path. this experience helps sadhak to go ahead with more faith and determination plus he gets guidance and protection from the deity. What's so great about it?? Some of sadhak's sole purpose was to manifest their beloved deity and they got it. May be not great for yo (may be ur goal is diff) but for them, it's really great. And it'd be great for me if some day I get to see my beloved deity. Yes, I believe they did. Again the same question if they can manifest for others to see. No, those kind of spiritual experiences are rare and one has to be qualified for that. Just asking proof is not enough for those kinda experiences. If that were like that, one would manifest god and all asking proof in the world will also manifest as well. :-) > This is a standard answer. IMHO if the spiritual rules are the same. If a mantra is recited as prescribed, the result SHOULD be there. But before that you look at the karmic balance I agree. If the balance is negative first set it right and as you say "pull the switch" the light WILL come on. Why should a Guru do it? Because it is his job. Once one becomes a Guru it is not just his sweet will and pleasure to "do" or "not to do" things. he has RESPONSIBLITIES. If someone asks, it is his DUTY to see the karmic balance help that person right it and then tell him what to do to get his problem solved. Some gurus even take on the Karmic blocks and burns them off so that teh aspirant gets what he wants. > Yes, guru has responsibilities to all who he considers his disciple and as u said helps remove his karmic defects. But it's very rare not every time that happens in an instant. Diff sadhak get diff effect acc to own sanskaars. > "how long does it take an adept to remove Karmic blocks? As far as I know for a "real adept" it is instantaneous. Anyone who hums and haws about it and starts giving excuses, not being able to produce the result, is just a traveler and not one who has "reached". We find so few people who have "reached" and the others just trot out excuses. > There can't be a fixed time for everyone. One may need more other less depending on how much work needs to be done on his karmic defects. "Real Adept" may get instantaneous enlightenment, but becoming "real adept" may take long. If you consider yourself "real adept" I'd suggest to go ahead and see if it works or not. I believe you'd be successful in all sadhanas. > "Challeging and inquiring is the basis of sadhana. Okay, I agree, but inquiry and challenge should follow practice, otherwise it'd just stop at words not results. > > Again a mistaken notion. There are samskaras and what not and we are given the freedom to work them out or neutralise. It takes but an instant for an "adept" to help neutralise them or give the sadhana to neutralise them "here and now". > i'd look forward to some sadhanas that will remove all of my karmic defects in an instant. that'd be something. Please define " an instant", is it a sec after chanting mantra or after 125,000 or in a time line? > No one here said that His Guru alone is great. Have you visited the Siddhashram site? I have. It had me laughing. They are the ones who say they solve any problem. With that type of claims every one will be a prime minister or whatever they want to be. The Guru's job is to assess the deciple's past samskaras, then decide on a course of action. These people do not even need the man's presence. Diksha with picture? I dunno. > Diksha can be given not only through Picture but even without it. Even just with name. Many of Vedas' rituals just need name, parents name, gotra etc. > A real adept will know whether it is a fair challenge or not!! Oh IC it takes time, is it?? I did not know that!! Siddhashram site seems to talk of instantaneous results. > May be those instantaneous results oriented advertisements need some revisions on the site. One experience from the site is included authenticity of that you can argue as well. http://www.siddhashram.org/e200105.shtml ------ CHANGE OF FORTUNE BY DIKSHA Through a photo I had Diksha from Jodhpur. I obtained Bhagyoday Diksha at the Nikhil Janmotsav Sadhana Camp in Allahabad from revered Gurudev Arvind Shrimali. At that time I was having many financial problems. Gurudev advised me to chant one round of a Mantra daily for 31 days. As I continued with the Sadhana slowly a change appeared in my circumstances. Suddenly I had success in business too. Now due to Gurudev's grace my financial position has become a lot better. I and my wife chant the Guru Mantra daily. Not just this Sadgurudev saved my life twice. My life was saved two times in different accidents. I and my family feel indebted towards Sadgurudev. I offer my respect in his holy feet. - Dr. D. K. Patidar, Badwani (MP) ------- I won't call this experience as an example of instantaneously. > > I DID NOT criticize any one. I was asking an open question. I may have taken it differently :-( > What I saw here was a feeling that any person who asks questions is not a sadhaka and is spiritually immature. I have rarely called anyone immature because EVERYONE I HAVE MET HERE had something to say and teach. The reason I stated this is because of the gentleman who wanted wealth teleportation and whatnot with mantras. > Mantras have power but it usually doesn't make someone bill gates overnight. Sadhaks do ask question as they are trying to move ahead. > I am sorry if I offended. I just wanted a topic opened for discussion. Please pardon me, a mere traveller on the path who has reached nowhere if I sounded offenceive. That was not my intention. > No offense taken as I said, no official representative from siddhashram here. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. --------------------- By the way i look at posts here, most of us believe in spiritual power from Mantra, Tantra, Meditation etc. Some of you may be in a high level too whose guidance we all seek. take care Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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