Siva as Corpse, etc.

[Guest guest]

Hi Cathie:

 

You write: *** The reclined Shiva lying prostrate under the feet of

Kali suggests that without the power of Kali (Shakti), Shiva is inert. ***

 

Sir John Woodroffe wrote in his essay, The Indian Magna Mater:

 

"Why does the Shakta lay stress on the Power or Mother aspect of

Reality? Like all other Hindus, s/he believes in a Static Real as

Immutable Being-Consciousness, which is the ground of and serves to

maintain that which, in this system, is the Dynamic Real.

 

"S/he will point out, however, that the Mother is also in one of Her

aspects of the same nature as Shiva, who is such Static Real. But it

is She who does work. She alone also moves as material cause. He as

Immutable Being does and can do nothing without Her as His Power.

Hence the Kaula Shakta. symbolism shows Shiva as lying inert and to

be, if deprived of His Power, but a corpse (Shava).

 

"Even when associated with his Shakti as efficient cause, Shiva does

not move. A not uncommon picture, counted obscene, is merely the

pictorial symbol of the fact that Being, even when associated with its

active Power, is Immutable. It is She as Power who takes the active

and changeful part in generation, as also in conceiving, bearing, and

giving birth to the World-Child. All this is the function of the

divine, as it is of the human, mother. In such work the male is but a

helper (Sahakari) only; [whereas] in other systems it is the Mother

who is the Helper of Shiva. It is thus [says the Shakta] to the Mother

that humanity owes the World of Form or Universe. Without Her as

material cause, Being cannot display itself. It is but a corpse (Shava)."

 

*** I saw an image in a book of Indian Art that depicted Kali dancing

on the back of Shakti who was spent making love to Shiva. ***

 

Actually, Kali is not standing on Shakti and Shiva, but on Rati and

Kama, who represent more earthy, lustful sex rather than the Divine

Union of Shakti and Shiva. In some representations Rati and Kama are

actively copulating; in others, they appear dead and/or on a funeral

pyre. The symbolism is really to rich and layered to express in a

quick sentence -- in Tantric interpretations, it simply shows that the

material cycle of creation and death fuels Devi's own Divine cycle of

Creation and Destruction; in some Yogic interpretations, it is seen as

representing the Yogi/ni's overcoming sexual desire. Pick yer fave ...

 

Aum MAtangyai NamaH

 

DB

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/29/2004 6:20:43 PM Mountain Daylight Time,

sephirah5 writes:

> Kama is the God of Love, rather like Cupid or Eros.

> Rati (sexual intercourse) is his wife.

> Lilith M.

 

Oh ! Thanks Lilith,

 

Peace,

Cathie

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks Devi,

Will look up Kama and Rati to see who these characters are, as I

don't remember hearing about them yet.

As for inertness, you are right, even in the art I saw of the

woman and the man you say are Kama and Rati, who while in the posture

of making love, still are depicted as if lifeless, motionless and

seemingly almost without consciousness, as the woman's head is only

seen from behind ( no face is visible) and the woman's head eclipses

that of her male counterpart.

Lots of interesting information in this thread ! :-]

 

Peace,

Cathie

, "Devi Bhakta"

<devi_bhakta> wrote:

>

> Hi Cathie:

<< snip >>

> Devi Writes:

> "Even when associated with his Shakti as efficient cause, Shiva does

> not move. A not uncommon picture, counted obscene, is merely the

> pictorial symbol of the fact that Being, even when associated with

its

> active Power, is Immutable. It is She as Power who takes the active

> and changeful part in generation, as also in conceiving, bearing,

and

> giving birth to the World-Child. All this is the function of the

> divine, as it is of the human, mother. In such work the male is but

a

> helper (Sahakari) only; [whereas] in other systems it is the Mother

> who is the Helper of Shiva. It is thus [says the Shakta] to the

Mother

> that humanity owes the World of Form or Universe. Without Her as

> material cause, Being cannot display itself. It is but a corpse

(Shava)."

>

> *** I saw an image in a book of Indian Art that depicted Kali

dancing

> on the back of Shakti who was spent making love to Shiva. ***

>

> Actually, Kali is not standing on Shakti and Shiva, but on Rati and

> Kama, who represent more earthy, lustful sex rather than the Divine

> Union of Shakti and Shiva. In some representations Rati and Kama are

> actively copulating; in others, they appear dead and/or on a funeral

> pyre. The symbolism is really to rich and layered to express in a

> quick sentence -- in Tantric interpretations, it simply shows that

the

> material cycle of creation and death fuels Devi's own Divine cycle

of

> Creation and Destruction; in some Yogic interpretations, it is seen

as

> representing the Yogi/ni's overcoming sexual desire. Pick yer

fave ...

>

> Aum MAtangyai NamaH

>

> DB

[Guest guest]

Kama is the God of Love, rather like Cupid or Eros.

Rati (sexual intercourse) is his wife.

Lilith M.

--- SophiasRealm <SophiasHeaven wrote:

>

> Thanks Devi,

> Will look up Kama and Rati to see who these

> characters are, as I

> don't remember hearing about them yet.

> As for inertness, you are right, even in the art

> I saw of the

> woman and the man you say are Kama and Rati, who

> while in the posture

> of making love, still are depicted as if lifeless,

> motionless and

> seemingly almost without consciousness, as the

> woman's head is only

> seen from behind ( no face is visible) and the

> woman's head eclipses

> that of her male counterpart.

> Lots of interesting information in this thread !

> :-]

>

> Peace,

> Cathie

> , "Devi Bhakta"

>

> <devi_bhakta> wrote:

> >

> > Hi Cathie:

> << snip >>

> > Devi Writes:

> > "Even when associated with his Shakti as efficient

> cause, Shiva does

> > not move. A not uncommon picture, counted obscene,

> is merely the

> > pictorial symbol of the fact that Being, even when

> associated with

> its

> > active Power, is Immutable. It is She as Power who

> takes the active

> > and changeful part in generation, as also in

> conceiving, bearing,

> and

> > giving birth to the World-Child. All this is the

> function of the

> > divine, as it is of the human, mother. In such

> work the male is but

> a

> > helper (Sahakari) only; [whereas] in other systems

> it is the Mother

> > who is the Helper of Shiva. It is thus [says the

> Shakta] to the

> Mother

> > that humanity owes the World of Form or Universe.

> Without Her as

> > material cause, Being cannot display itself. It is

> but a corpse

> (Shava)."

> >

> > *** I saw an image in a book of Indian Art that

> depicted Kali

> dancing

> > on the back of Shakti who was spent making love to

> Shiva. ***

> >

> > Actually, Kali is not standing on Shakti and

> Shiva, but on Rati and

> > Kama, who represent more earthy, lustful sex

> rather than the Divine

> > Union of Shakti and Shiva. In some representations

> Rati and Kama are

> > actively copulating; in others, they appear dead

> and/or on a funeral

> > pyre. The symbolism is really to rich and layered

> to express in a

> > quick sentence -- in Tantric interpretations, it

> simply shows that

> the

> > material cycle of creation and death fuels Devi's

> own Divine cycle

> of

> > Creation and Destruction; in some Yogic

> interpretations, it is seen

> as

> > representing the Yogi/ni's overcoming sexual

> desire. Pick yer

> fave ...

> >

> > Aum MAtangyai NamaH

> >

> > DB

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

Read only the mail you want - Mail SpamGuard.

 

[Guest guest]

, "Devi Bhakta" <devi_bhakta

> Actually, Kali is not standing on Shakti and Shiva, but on Rati and

> Kama, who represent more earthy, lustful sex rather than the Divine

> Union of Shakti and Shiva. In some representations Rati and Kama are

> actively copulating; in others, they appear dead and/or on a funeral

> pyre. The symbolism is really to rich and layered to express in a

> quick sentence -- in Tantric interpretations, it simply shows that

the material cycle of creation and death fuels Devi's own Divine cycle

of Creation and Destruction; in some Yogic interpretations, it is seen

as representing the Yogi/ni's overcoming sexual desire. Pick yer fave

....

 

In this point i shall argue . Although i heard this interpretation

from some, i see it as inadequate. Perhaps it was a product of

"veiling" the true kaula doctine - for pashus not to get angry LOL.

If we see this image in view of kaula scriptures we come to the

interpretation that i provided in last post.

For example we read "viparItaratA nArI svayaM kAlI na saMshayaH". Rati

and Kama aredepicted in viparita-maithuna . Image is showing Kali

manifesting due to kula-yaga.

 

A.

[Guest guest]

, "Devi Bhakta"

<devi_bhakta> wrote:

>

> Hi Cathie:

>

> You write: *** The reclined Shiva lying prostrate under the feet of

> Kali suggests that without the power of Kali (Shakti), Shiva is

inert. ***

>

> Sir John Woodroffe wrote in his essay, The Indian Magna Mater:

>

> "Why does the Shakta lay stress on the Power or Mother aspect of

> Reality? Like all other Hindus, s/he believes in a Static Real as

> Immutable Being-Consciousness, which is the ground of and serves to

> maintain that which, in this system, is the Dynamic Real.

>

> "S/he will point out, however, that the Mother is also in one of Her

> aspects of the same nature as Shiva, who is such Static Real. But it

> is She who does work. She alone also moves as material cause. He as

> Immutable Being does and can do nothing without Her as His Power.

> Hence the Kaula Shakta. symbolism shows Shiva as lying inert and to

> be, if deprived of His Power, but a corpse (Shava).

>

> "Even when associated with his Shakti as efficient cause, Shiva does

> not move. A not uncommon picture, counted obscene, is merely the

> pictorial symbol of the fact that Being, even when associated with

its

> active Power, is Immutable. It is She as Power who takes the active

> and changeful part in generation, as also in conceiving, bearing,

and

> giving birth to the World-Child. All this is the function of the

> divine, as it is of the human, mother. In such work the male is but

a

> helper (Sahakari) only; [whereas] in other systems it is the Mother

> who is the Helper of Shiva. It is thus [says the Shakta] to the

Mother

> that humanity owes the World of Form or Universe. Without Her as

> material cause, Being cannot display itself. It is but a corpse

(Shava)."

 

 

This is a very good interpretation, one that does not conflict even

with some Shaiva texts; but when we read the story about Kali

standing on Siva, this interpretration is far removed from the

context of the story. I recapitulate briefly the story (from the Devi

Bhagavata??) - Kali goes on a rampage after destroying some asuras

and the Devas concerned that the entire cosmos will be destroyed out

of Kali's wrath, pleads with Siva to do something about it. So Siva

goes and lies down on the Kali's path. When Kali accidentally touches

Siva who is lying down, She thinks 'who is this stranger who has

dared to come in my way' and when She finds that it is her own

husband, She suddenly comes to Her senses and apologises for having

touched Him with her feet - there is no place in this story for

assuming that Siva was a corpse lying down helplessly; perhaps this

corpse analogy is confused with the first verse of the

Soundaryalahiri, where it is stated that Siva is a shava without

Shakti, but elsewhere inthe Soundaryalahari Acharya says that Shakti

dutifully worships Siva Her Lord, therefore the first verse can be

taken as mere poetic imagination.

 

As with most common myths there are many versions of this story-

these "fringe myths" may deal with Kali and Siva in coitus and so on;

however we cannot take these "fringe myths" and put it before well

accepted mainstream stories. Kali is the Divine Mother and Siva is

the Divine Father, and we are all children of the divine parents. Now

tell me which child would like to see their parents copulating with

each other???!!!

 

Looking at Kali and Siva without any sexual connotation is NOT pashu-

speak; it is the higher divya attitude as exemplified by Ramakrishna.

And merely talking about maithuna does not automatically elevate to

Veera status; people who do this belong to a lower category of

pashus, for Veeras never talk publicly of veera-sadhana.

 

-yogaman