Extreme Tantra practices, mating etc.

[Guest guest]

, sankara menon <kochu1tz>

wrote:

> I am sorry I have to interject at this stage. There are practices

and practices. Normally in srividya upasana the practices sanctioned

by a Guru personalised for a specifi deciple are what matters. There

is no common practice for all. The practices are customiserd by Guru.

> The problem with the present situation is that people read all

sort of texts and decide that all applies to all. this is far from

the truth. The same Guru's students will have different practices.

> Please keep this in mind when u discuss.

>

 

Hi Kochu,

 

You have made a very good point that I think provides a break-

through for this discussion .... the practices are customized by the

Guru for each individual sadhak.

 

So, however much one may sit here and debate about it, ultimately NO

ONE PERSON WILL HAVE THE RIGHT ANSWER THAT FITS EVERYBODY'S NEEDS.

 

Maybe, we should rest this topic now and move on.... just a thought.

 

Lest I look like a spoil sport, I must say it is all very

interesting, but it is too much of a thing now, hence the request.

 

Jai Ma!

[Guest guest]

***The practices are customiserd by Guru.***

 

This brings up a host of objections. Any Guru who tells someone

to do any of the extreme practices mentioned in this thread is

suspect. What is his/her mentality if not tamasic with a

consciousness as dense as concrete. Just because someone

claims to be a Guru doesn't make them so. Just because

someone tells you to eat shit, have sex with animals, etc, it

doesn't mean you have to be dumb enough to actually do it. It

comes down the point that if you want badly enough to do

something that is unethical, immoral, illegal, hazardous to health

and spiritually debilitating you will find a way to convince yourself.

 

Want to smoke dope, find someone with a worse mentality than

you who thinks he/she is a guru and follow their advice. Can't

find such a guru, read 'scriptures' that OK dope smoking but

forget that the so-called 'scripture' was written by someone who

was more messed up than you.

 

But, hey, taking the long view, none of this matters. If you want to

exhaust your karma by trying anything and everything that

captures your desire over tens of thousands of life-times until

you become sated, then that is up to you. You could, instead

listen to the advice of those who have been were you want to go

spiritually and make your journey much shorter and smoother.

The eventual destination is the same, choice of how you get

there and the trials and tribulations that you impose on yourself

along the journey is up to you.

 

Omprem

 

 

, "manoj_menon"

<ammasmon@s...> wrote:

>

> , sankara menon

<kochu1tz>

> wrote:

> > I am sorry I have to interject at this stage. There are practices

> and practices. Normally in srividya upasana the practices

sanctioned

> by a Guru personalised for a specifi deciple are what matters.

There

> is no common practice for all. The practices are customiserd

by Guru.

> > The problem with the present situation is that people read all

> sort of texts and decide that all applies to all. this is far from

> the truth. The same Guru's students will have different

practices.

> > Please keep this in mind when u discuss.

> >

>

> Hi Kochu,

>

> You have made a very good point that I think provides a break-

> through for this discussion .... the practices are customized by

the

> Guru for each individual sadhak.

>

> So, however much one may sit here and debate about it,

ultimately NO

> ONE PERSON WILL HAVE THE RIGHT ANSWER THAT FITS

EVERYBODY'S NEEDS.

>

> Maybe, we should rest this topic now and move on.... just a

thought.

>

> Lest I look like a spoil sport, I must say it is all very

> interesting, but it is too much of a thing now, hence the

request.

>

> Jai Ma!

[Guest guest]

, "omprem" <omprem> wrote:

>

> ***The practices are customiserd by Guru.***

>

> This brings up a host of objections. Any Guru who tells someone

> to do any of the extreme practices mentioned in this thread is

> suspect. What is his/her mentality if not tamasic with a

> consciousness as dense as concrete. Just because someone

> claims to be a Guru doesn't make them so. Just because

> someone tells you to eat shit, have sex with animals, etc, it

> doesn't mean you have to be dumb enough to actually do it. It

> comes down the point that if you want badly enough to do

> something that is unethical, immoral, illegal, hazardous to health

> and spiritually debilitating you will find a way to convince

yourself.

>

> Want to smoke dope, find someone with a worse mentality than

> you who thinks he/she is a guru and follow their advice. Can't

> find such a guru, read 'scriptures' that OK dope smoking but

> forget that the so-called 'scripture' was written by someone who

> was more messed up than you.

 

 

Omprem,

 

I am generally cool with most of what you say and infact find it

very practical and wise, but I got to object here. This may get

lengthy, so be patient and read through this.

 

Exactly what is your problem with what a Guru tells his disciple?

 

Let's assume that the disciple had all the brains he needed to

figure out who should be his Guru (let's ignore the other injunction

that the Guru chooses a diciple, not the other way around for this

argument). And that he has finally chosen a Guru as the best

possible guru for his spiritual development and emancipation.

 

Now, if a disciple has accepted a Guru, then saranagati (Surrender)

is the first quality that needs to be inculcated by the disciple.

(IMHO, true saranagati is the LAST thing a disciple really acquires,

but an outward obedience is the least he can do and he should have

an intention to develop total and inner obedience - true saranagati).

 

Now, with this background, a Guru can literally tell you to do

anything - to test you level of surrender. It does not mean he will

do it, it is just that he can exercise that option. Wise Gurus will

always use that only for the disciple's betterment, so we need to

ASSUME GOOD INTENTIONS here. Which is where your strong stand on

what a Guru may advise his disciple (including extreme practices

etc) is, in my perception, inconsistent with what you generally

stand for (Side note: ASSUME GOOD INTENTIONS. Take a hard look at

this: are you assuming the Guru does not have good intentions? Maybe

that's why you are so hard on this. In that case, I would advise you

that is not your business to judge the Guru's intentions; the

disciple has already made that choice for himself).

 

At this point, let's figure out that the opposite of our assumption

was the correct one - the Guru had BAD INTENTIONS.

 

I will draw Kochu's beautiful answer to this (he posted this

sometime ago, not with this thread): if the disciple is sincere,

SriVidya will protect him and the Guru will incur the karma; if the

disciple is not sincere, then he will also get his share of the

karma.

 

So, either way, from what I could understand, I do not see a reason

for a hard stand for or against extreme practices; the primary focus

should be on choosing the guru smartly, then following the guru

through the whole sadhana. Fluidity of mind in the "Hows"

(practices) makes us open to receive the Guru's (or Devi's) Grace;

rigidity might make us stuck.

> But, hey, taking the long view, none of this matters. If you want

to

> exhaust your karma by trying anything and everything that

> captures your desire over tens of thousands of life-times until

> you become sated, then that is up to you. You could, instead

> listen to the advice of those who have been were you want to go

> spiritually and make your journey much shorter and smoother.

> The eventual destination is the same, choice of how you get

> there and the trials and tribulations that you impose on yourself

> along the journey is up to you.

>

> Omprem

 

This is very correct, but I will add a remark here. The choice of

your path is the Guru's, not yours. Your only choice is who your

Guru is, never the subsequent path after that.

 

Jai Ma!

[Guest guest]

omprem <omprem wrote:

 

 

***The practices are customiserd by Guru.***

 

This brings up a host of objections. Any Guru who tells someone to do any of the

extreme practices mentioned in this thread is suspect. What is his/her mentality

if not tamasic with a consciousness as dense as concrete. Just because someone

claims to be a Guru doesn't make them so. Just because someone tells you to eat

shit, have sex with animals, etc, it doesn't mean you have to be dumb enough to

actually do it. It comes down the point that if you want badly enough to do

something that is unethical, immoral, illegal, hazardous to health and

spiritually debilitating you will find a way to convince yourself.

 

 

 

==== why suspect? Let me tell you a story. I and another co disciple were

initiated very close to each other. I was told do japa when u can and do not

drive yourself. The other person was given a regimen of japa that lasted 18

hours a day for 3 years. She changed the regimen only the day before her Samadhi

– saying “now like Kochu do Japa when u can.” My Guru or anyone I had met never

advocated any of the extreme measures. When we asked all that was said “there

are methods and methods, lets stick to those of our Sampradaya.” And no guru

will advocate or force things.

 

 

 

Want to smoke dope, find someone with a worse mentality than you who thinks

he/she is a guru and follow their advice. Can't find such a guru, read

'scriptures' that OK dope smoking but forget that the so-called 'scripture' was

written by someone who was more messed up than you.

 

 

 

== Another thing that I must emphasise is that in Srividya we do not condemn

anything – that does not mean we agree but we prefer to leave each person to his

level. Being judgemental is mot part of our path.

 

 

 

 

 

But, hey, taking the long view, none of this matters. If you want to exhaust

your karma by trying anything and everything that captures your desire over tens

of thousands of life-times until you become sated, then that is up to you. You

could, instead listen to the advice of those who have been were you want to go

spiritually and make your journey much shorter and smoother. The eventual

destination is the same, choice of how you get there and the trials and

tribulations that you impose on yourself along the journey is up to you.

 

 

 

== Exactly. Each person’s path is his own. Lets just not be judgemental. Period.

 

Omprem

 

 

, "manoj_menon"

<ammasmon@s...> wrote:

>

> , sankara menon

<kochu1tz>

> wrote:

> > I am sorry I have to interject at this stage. There are practices

> and practices. Normally in srividya upasana the practices

sanctioned by a Guru personalised for a specifi deciple are what matters.

There is no common practice for all. The practices are customised

by Guru.

> > The problem with the present situation is that people read all sort of texts

and decide that all applies to all. This is far from the truth. The same Guru's

students will have different practices.

> > Please keep this in mind when u discuss.

> >

>

> Hi Kochu,

>

> You have made a very good point that I think provides a break-

> through for this discussion .... the practices are customized by

the Guru for each individual sadhak.

>

> So, however much one may sit here and debate about it,

ultimately NO ONE PERSON WILL HAVE THE RIGHT ANSWER THAT FITS

EVERYBODY'S NEEDS.

>

> Maybe, we should rest this topic now and move on.... just a

thought.

>

> Lest I look like a spoil sport, I must say it is all very interesting, but it

is too much of a thing now, hence the

request.

>

> Jai Ma!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I agree with your point that having a Guru is not all sweetness

and light because the Guru's main job is to crack the ego of the

aspirant. One of the methods the Guru uses to do this is to ask

the aspirant to do many strange or difficult things in order to test

his/her reaction and to move the aspirant beyond his/her

preconceived notions of what is possible. Moreover, the Guru

wiil protect the aspirant from harm while those tasks are being

perfomed.

 

But, in this case, I think that we can question whether the

so-called 'guru' is authentic. There are a lot of fake and

degenerate people out there posing as Gurus. One of the ways

to spot them is to use your intuition and apply a test of

reasonableness to the requests. Eating shit or having sex with

animals does not come close to being reasonable and one's

intuition should start to twitch warnings if the instruction veers off

into this type of direction. Assuming "that the disciple had all the

brains he needed to figure out who should be his Guru" is

taking a huge (and unjustified) leap of faith. Those degenerate

gurus don't become so without having lots of people willing to be

abused and misused by them because of a desperation for

spiritual knowledge or a desperation for someone to care for

them. It is a fine line between suspending one's willingness to

disbelieve what is before your eyes and surrendering to your

guru because you sense the authenticity of the guru.

 

While the notion that "SriVidya will protect him and the Guru will

incur the karma" seems fine, desirable, and comfortable on the

surface, in reality I doubt that it applies. The abuse that the

aspirant will face will be part of his/her karma coming to fruition

and so could be severe. If we also factor in the idea that the

aspirant is not too intuitive or else why would he/she have stayed

with the 'guru', then we can conclude that the aspirant will have

emotional reactons to the abuse and so will incur still more

karma. Giving allegiance to a fake guru does not have good

consequences for either the 'guru' or the aspirant from a karmic

viewpoint.

 

I agree that "the primary focus should be on choosing the guru

smartly, then following the guru through the whole sadhana. "

The operative word is 'smartly'. Any authentic Guru will

encourage you to use your own reason and intuition and not take

the Guru's word on everything. Asking the aspirant to blindly

follow instructions and so to eat shit, etc, would be a test by an

authentic Gurua not of the aspirant's loyalty but rather a test of

whether the aspirant was sufficiently advanced and confident in

his/her intuition to see through the test and so resist the

instruction/ invitation to follow these degenerate practices. I say

again that no authentic Guru would seriously ask an aspirant to

do these practices.

 

Finally, your point that it "is not your business to judge the Guru's

intentions; the disciple has already made that choice for

himself).", leads me to ask if one sees a child about to injure

themselves playing with matches or being too near a hot stove

element, is it not wise and indeed, a necessary duty, to warn the

child? Because spiritual aspirants are not children, it is enough

to issue the warning and so discharge your duty of care to others

while leaving the final decision of following the degenerate guru

to be theirs.

 

But I enjoy our discussion and it is a topic that needs to be

addressed.

 

OM Namah Sivaya

 

Omprem

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, "manoj_menon"

<ammasmon@s...> wrote:

>

> , "omprem"

<omprem> wrote:

> >

> > ***The practices are customiserd by Guru.***

> >

> > This brings up a host of objections. Any Guru who tells

someone

> > to do any of the extreme practices mentioned in this thread is

> > suspect. What is his/her mentality if not tamasic with a

> > consciousness as dense as concrete. Just because

someone

> > claims to be a Guru doesn't make them so. Just because

> > someone tells you to eat shit, have sex with animals, etc, it

> > doesn't mean you have to be dumb enough to actually do it.

It

> > comes down the point that if you want badly enough to do

> > something that is unethical, immoral, illegal, hazardous to

health

> > and spiritually debilitating you will find a way to convince

> yourself.

> >

> > Want to smoke dope, find someone with a worse mentality

than

> > you who thinks he/she is a guru and follow their advice. Can't

> > find such a guru, read 'scriptures' that OK dope smoking but

> > forget that the so-called 'scripture' was written by someone

who

> > was more messed up than you.

>

>

> Omprem,

>

> I am generally cool with most of what you say and infact find it

> very practical and wise, but I got to object here. This may get

> lengthy, so be patient and read through this.

>

> Exactly what is your problem with what a Guru tells his

disciple?

>

> Let's assume that the disciple had all the brains he needed to

> figure out who should be his Guru (let's ignore the other

injunction

> that the Guru chooses a diciple, not the other way around for

this

> argument). And that he has finally chosen a Guru as the best

> possible guru for his spiritual development and emancipation.

>

> Now, if a disciple has accepted a Guru, then saranagati

(Surrender)

> is the first quality that needs to be inculcated by the disciple.

> (IMHO, true saranagati is the LAST thing a disciple really

acquires,

> but an outward obedience is the least he can do and he

should have

> an intention to develop total and inner obedience - true

saranagati).

>

> Now, with this background, a Guru can literally tell you to do

> anything - to test you level of surrender. It does not mean he

will

> do it, it is just that he can exercise that option. Wise Gurus will

> always use that only for the disciple's betterment, so we need

to

> ASSUME GOOD INTENTIONS here. Which is where your

strong stand on

> what a Guru may advise his disciple (including extreme

practices

> etc) is, in my perception, inconsistent with what you generally

> stand for (Side note: ASSUME GOOD INTENTIONS. Take a

hard look at

> this: are you assuming the Guru does not have good

intentions? Maybe

> that's why you are so hard on this. In that case, I would advise

you

> that is not your business to judge the Guru's intentions; the

> disciple has already made that choice for himself).

>

> At this point, let's figure out that the opposite of our assumption

> was the correct one - the Guru had BAD INTENTIONS.

>

> I will draw Kochu's beautiful answer to this (he posted this

> sometime ago, not with this thread): if the disciple is sincere,

> SriVidya will protect him and the Guru will incur the karma; if

the

> disciple is not sincere, then he will also get his share of the

> karma.

>

> So, either way, from what I could understand, I do not see a

reason

> for a hard stand for or against extreme practices; the primary

focus

> should be on choosing the guru smartly, then following the

guru

> through the whole sadhana. Fluidity of mind in the "Hows"

> (practices) makes us open to receive the Guru's (or Devi's)

Grace;

> rigidity might make us stuck.

>

> > But, hey, taking the long view, none of this matters. If you

want

> to

> > exhaust your karma by trying anything and everything that

> > captures your desire over tens of thousands of life-times until

> > you become sated, then that is up to you. You could, instead

> > listen to the advice of those who have been were you want to

go

> > spiritually and make your journey much shorter and

smoother.

> > The eventual destination is the same, choice of how you get

> > there and the trials and tribulations that you impose on

yourself

> > along the journey is up to you.

> >

> > Omprem

>

> This is very correct, but I will add a remark here. The choice of

> your path is the Guru's, not yours. Your only choice is who your

> Guru is, never the subsequent path after that.

>

> Jai Ma!