Guest guest Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 Actually, I myself completely respect India's decision to refuse all foreign aid. Everybody else is involved in a dance for dollars...India declines to participate! Thanks, but no thanks! Jai Kali Ma!!! Unfortunately, I must point out to our Indian friends, the American perception of India as a whole is synonymous with a place of nonstop and universal beggary, suffering, and starvation, yet ironically, any number of its OWN citizens are begging, suffering and starving, more so now than ever before! It is just not as apparent here as there! A high-caste, well-to-do Indian friend told me when she came to Canada she could not tell who the "poor" people were! In India poor people do not have ANYTHING AT ALL compared to the wild excess demonstrated in comparison by Western poor people..one can drive through a poor Western area and see "poor" children wearing expensive sneakers as a matter of course, for instance. In India, that would not happen, period. In India, you can always tell who is rich and who is poor, materially speaking. The lines are much more clearly drawn there, which is why visits to India tend to scramble the brains of materialistic, comfort-addicted Westerners seeing it for the first time! The Indian attitude towards misfortune is much different that that of Westerners; they are much more stoic. They think in centuries where we Westerners tend to think in days, or months at best. They know how to endure. The Master Vimalananda summed it up rather neatly in his book "The Path of Karma" third in the "Aghora" series: ...."India has always been a special place, that everyone here is different. India will never become a communist state because our people are stoic. Because they believe in the life beyond, they try not to create problems for themselves in this life if they can help it. If belief in the afterlife had not been there, we would have gone communist long ago. During the 1942 Bengal famine, which even Western historians agree was a man-made famine created to fill the pockets of certain businessmen, people would sit starving outside fancy hotels in Calcutta and beg food from those emerging after ten-course meals. It never occurred to those starving people to get together, storm the hotel, and steal the food. Even though they died like flies, they never tried to grab for themselves. Why? They remembered the Law of Karma. These people had every right to steal and eat but they didn't. That is India." "So is everyone in India a saint, even the beggars?" "Far from it! Some of the greatest evil in the world has been perpetrated here, like that engineered famine...What I am getting at is that most people in India, even when they are miserable, still know that they are suffering from the efftects of previous bad karmas. This makes them think twice and three times, before reacting to their misery. India is a deposit counter for good karmas, at least for most of our people. We believe in the life hereafter and work towards it.Now we too are suffering from the effects of the American disease but originally we in India believed in stock-piling our good karmas and using them only when there is real need...Think of the word "saha", which means "to endure", to go patiently through hardships without rebelling. When you invert "saha" you get "hasa", which means "to laugh". If you endure all your evil karmas at the beginning of your life, then you can achieve your goal and live comfortably at the end of your life. Then you will have nothing to do but laugh like crazy because of the overwhelming joy of it all. But if you enjoy yourself at the beginning of your life and waste all your good karmas, you will find your end will be lamentable. And since what you are thinking about when you die determines your next rebirth ( ante mati, sa gati )your future birth is likely to be lamentable too! It is always better to endure whatever Fate may throw your way. You will definitely reap your reward--eventually! But if you try to laugh now, you are heading for sorrow in the end.Don't forget the old saying: 'He who laughs last, laughs best.'" ("The Path of Karma", p.180, by Dr. Robert Svoboda) Lilith M. --- sankara menon <kochu1tz wrote: > > Yes thats right. when aid giver assumes superiority > airs even beggers would decline. All the same India > never was a begger. It was stolen fundamental > research from India that fuels the the western > economies. It is stolen money accepted as stolen > (knowing to be stolen that is a crime anywhere else) > that fuels swiss economy. So it is better to be a > begger but honest and civilised than to be a thief; > accessory to theft and the like. But we, being > cultured and civilised we do not keep harping on > this. > > By the way attack maybe the best form of defence but > you try that on ppl like Indians we will fight more > *smile*. Insulting and attacking will not make us > back out. > > with that I stop talking of this *smile* > > I am travelling in an hour and will be back in > africa 2morrow. So more after that. (if necessary) > > NMadasamy <nmadasamy > wrote: > > Chumki Basu wrote: India has proved that "begars CAN > be choosers." > > Been thinking about this many times, many questions > floating in my > head: > > Should there be beggars in the first place? > > What do you understand the term Beggars? If I have > none and I ask > for others perhaps. But if I have enough for myself, > and I can still > contribute to help another, how can I call myself a > beggar? So why > should India be called beggars? > > If we are neighbours and friends and really care for > each other, > should we wait our friends to beg help from us? > > > Links > > > / > > > > > Your use of is subject to the > > > > > > > Meet the all-new My – Try it today! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > ------------------------ Sponsor > --------------------~--> > It is better to give.... > Especially when giving to a child in poverty. > Click here to meet a child you can help. > http://us.click./uq3f6C/hJlJAA/i1hLAA/XUWolB/TM > --~-> > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail./mail_250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2005 Report Share Posted January 6, 2005 Please clarify - in which part of the world there are no beggers. In west SOCIAL SECURITY DEPENDENT beggers. From where that aid comes from - TAX PAYERS. If that help is removed,they will be thrown on the street. In India ,especially in big cities - there is vast migration from rural India. They neither have marketable skills (WHICH CITY DEMANDS) nor finance, NOR GOVERNMENT AID. Hence, we see them on streets. Please let us not judge rich or poor by external appearance. Once - we closely observe or interact - we will be surprised to find that there is not much difference in attitude of people - whether they are from west or east. ALL THESE SHOES AND CLOTHING ARE ONLY OUTER COVERING. THIS IS MY OPINION: Very true - Karma theory can bring acceptance in once attitude - Same Karma theory is the cause behind INDIFFERENCE TO THE SUFFERING. In other words, if an Hindu sees someonce suffering, ofcourse, he will have feeling of sympathy - at the same tiime - his belief might say that IT IS INDEED BAD THAT HE IS UNDERGOING hardship - what can anybody do, it is his KARMA and he is paying AND HAS TO PAY for it, in this life. I do believe in karma but would like learned and SPIRITUAL ROLE MODELS TO PUT IT IN right context and guide us. Let them be a voice and do something about it. rupa. One good >Lili Masamura <sephirah5 > > > Should there be beggars ? >Tue, 4 Jan 2005 16:00:23 -0800 (PST) > > >Actually, I myself completely respect India's decision >to refuse all foreign aid. Everybody else is involved >in a dance for dollars...India declines to >participate! Thanks, but no thanks! Jai Kali Ma!!! > > Unfortunately, I must point out to our Indian >friends, the American perception of India as a whole >is synonymous with a place of nonstop and universal >beggary, suffering, and starvation, yet ironically, >any number of its OWN citizens are begging, suffering >and starving, more so now than ever before! It is just >not as apparent here as there! A high-caste, >well-to-do Indian friend told me when she came to >Canada she could not tell who the "poor" people were! >In India poor people do not have ANYTHING AT ALL >compared to the wild excess demonstrated in comparison >by Western poor people..one can drive through a poor >Western area and see "poor" children wearing expensive >sneakers as a matter of course, for instance. In >India, that would not happen, period. In India, you >can always tell who is rich and who is poor, >materially speaking. The lines are much more clearly >drawn there, which is why visits to India tend to >scramble the brains of materialistic, comfort-addicted >Westerners seeing it for the first time! The Indian >attitude towards misfortune is much different that >that of Westerners; they are much more stoic. They >think in centuries where we Westerners tend to think >in days, or months at best. They know how to endure. >The Master Vimalananda summed it up rather neatly in >his book "The Path of Karma" third in the "Aghora" >series: > >..."India has always been a special place, that >everyone here is different. India will never become a >communist state because our people are stoic. Because >they believe in the life beyond, they try not to >create problems for themselves in this life if they >can help it. If belief in the afterlife had not been >there, we would have gone communist long ago. During >the 1942 Bengal famine, which even Western historians >agree was a man-made famine created to fill the >pockets of certain businessmen, people would sit >starving outside fancy hotels in Calcutta and beg food >from those emerging after ten-course meals. It never >occurred to those starving people to get together, >storm the hotel, and steal the food. Even though they >died like flies, they never tried to grab for >themselves. Why? They remembered the Law of Karma. >These people had every right to steal and eat but they >didn't. That is India." > > "So is everyone in India a saint, even the beggars?" > >"Far from it! Some of the greatest evil in the world >has been perpetrated here, like that engineered >famine...What I am getting at is that most people in >India, even when they are miserable, still know that >they are suffering from the efftects of previous bad >karmas. This makes them think twice and three times, >before reacting to their misery. India is a deposit >counter for good karmas, at least for most of our >people. We believe in the life hereafter and work >towards it.Now we too are suffering from the effects >of the American disease but originally we in India >believed in stock-piling our good karmas and using >them only when there is real need...Think of the word >"saha", which means "to endure", to go patiently >through hardships without rebelling. When you invert >"saha" you get "hasa", which means "to laugh". If you >endure all your evil karmas at the beginning of your >life, then you can achieve your goal and live >comfortably at the end of your life. Then you will >have nothing to do but laugh like crazy because of the >overwhelming joy of it all. But if you enjoy yourself >at the beginning of your life and waste all your good >karmas, you will find your end will be lamentable. And >since what you are thinking about when you die >determines your next rebirth ( ante mati, sa gati >)your future birth is likely to be lamentable too! It >is always better to endure whatever Fate may throw >your way. You will definitely reap your >reward--eventually! But if you try to laugh now, you >are heading for sorrow in the end.Don't forget the old >saying: 'He who laughs last, laughs best.'" ("The Path >of Karma", p.180, by Dr. Robert Svoboda) > Lilith M. > >--- sankara menon <kochu1tz wrote: > > > > > Yes thats right. when aid giver assumes superiority > > airs even beggers would decline. All the same India > > never was a begger. It was stolen fundamental > > research from India that fuels the the western > > economies. It is stolen money accepted as stolen > > (knowing to be stolen that is a crime anywhere else) > > that fuels swiss economy. So it is better to be a > > begger but honest and civilised than to be a thief; > > accessory to theft and the like. But we, being > > cultured and civilised we do not keep harping on > > this. > > > > By the way attack maybe the best form of defence but > > you try that on ppl like Indians we will fight more > > *smile*. Insulting and attacking will not make us > > back out. > > > > with that I stop talking of this *smile* > > > > I am travelling in an hour and will be back in > > africa 2morrow. So more after that. (if necessary) > > > > NMadasamy <nmadasamy > > wrote: > > > > Chumki Basu wrote: India has proved that "begars CAN > > be choosers." > > > > Been thinking about this many times, many questions > > floating in my > > head: > > > > Should there be beggars in the first place? > > > > What do you understand the term Beggars? If I have > > none and I ask > > for others perhaps. But if I have enough for myself, > > and I can still > > contribute to help another, how can I call myself a > > beggar? So why > > should India be called beggars? > > > > If we are neighbours and friends and really care for > > each other, > > should we wait our friends to beg help from us? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > / > > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Meet the all-new My – Try it today! > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Sponsor > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. >http://info.mail./mail_250 > > > > > Links > > > > > > > _______________ Play online games with your friends with MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.nl/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2005 Report Share Posted January 6, 2005 Rajeshwari wrote : "Please clarify - in which part of the world there are no beggers. In westSOCIAL SECURITY DEPENDENT beggers. From where that aid comes from – TAX PAYERS. If that help is removed,they will be thrown on the street." I come from Singapore. You do not see beggars on the street. But again, you may say Singapore is different. We are a small country. The main issue here is that, we do not have any natural resources. Our only assets is the people. It does not help our country if we have a lazy population. So we are being reminded since young that if you do not help yourself, nobody will help you. If the same tidal wave or perhaps worst were to hit singapore, we too will be come like the Andaman & Nicobar Islands. Almost whole populations and generations wipe out. When we saw the reality of what happen to other countries, it remind to us too about our vulnerability. We are just a tiny little island. "In India ,especially in big cities - there is vast migration from rural India. They neither have marketable skills (WHICH CITY DEMANDS) nor finance, NOR GOVERNMENT AID. Hence, we see them on streets." In order to break the cycle of poverty, I believe is not by giving money but by helping these people via education, teaching them new skills etc. Poverty is not inherited, it is our own doing. Why should we depend on Government aid all the time. What happen to the NGO? "Please let us not judge rich or poor by external appearance. Once - we closely observe or interact - we will be surprised to find that there is not much difference in attitude of people - whether they are from west or east. ALL THESE SHOES AND CLOTHING ARE ONLY OUTER COVERING" I agree with you on this, but again Rajeshwariji please read the whole thread again and try to understand what this whole issue about beggars and begging is all about. Nevertheless I like to say : Thank you for your mail and I am glad to see you back in the group again. Hope to see you more often in the group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2005 Report Share Posted January 6, 2005 Re the social security system in America: we pay into it from our employment earnings. An amount is deducted from each paycheck that goes toward our social security (retirement). After a certain age, we can then draw from those funds, though not any amount that we want, even though the money is ours, paid for over the years. But they have figured out that there isn't enough money there to support those of us who have yet to retire even though we have paid into the system all of our working lives, which is why there's a big deal now about what to do with the social security system. But about beggars: needing help does not a beggar make. Stinginess on the part of those who have plenty does. And because of the dominator tendency (if you read the Chalice & the Blade on our Shakti Sadhana reading list you will understand what this is about), there is yet much work to do to undo that which creates "beggars." Mary Ann , "NMadasamy" <nmadasamy@s...> wrote: > > Rajeshwari wrote : > > "Please clarify - in which part of the world there are no > beggers. In westSOCIAL SECURITY DEPENDENT beggers. From where that > aid comes from – TAX PAYERS. If that help is removed,they will be > thrown on the street." > > I come from Singapore. You do not see beggars on the street. But > again, you may say Singapore is different. We are a small country. > > The main issue here is that, we do not have any natural resources. > Our only assets is the people. It does not help our country if we > have a lazy population. So we are being reminded since young that if > you do not help yourself, nobody will help you. If the same tidal > wave or perhaps worst were to hit singapore, we too will be come > like the Andaman & Nicobar Islands. Almost whole populations and > generations wipe out. When we saw the reality of what happen to > other countries, it remind to us too about our vulnerability. We are > just a tiny little island. > > "In India ,especially in big cities - there is vast migration > from rural India. They neither have marketable skills (WHICH CITY > DEMANDS) nor finance, NOR GOVERNMENT AID. Hence, we see them on > streets." > > In order to break the cycle of poverty, I believe is not by giving > money but by helping these people via education, teaching them new > skills etc. Poverty is not inherited, it is our own doing. Why > should we depend on Government aid all the time. What happen to the > NGO? > > "Please let us not judge rich or poor by external appearance. > Once - we closely observe or interact - we will be surprised to find > that there is not much difference in attitude of people - whether > they are from west or east. ALL THESE SHOES AND CLOTHING ARE ONLY > OUTER COVERING" > > I agree with you on this, but again Rajeshwariji please read the > whole thread again and try to understand what this whole issue about > beggars and begging is all about. Nevertheless I like to say : Thank > you for your mail and I am glad to see you back in the group again. > Hope to see you more often in the group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 Poverty is not enobling, and is an evil that we should all fight, for the good of our souls. No one should have to do without food, clothing, shelter, or medical care, or an education EVER! BB Gwen of Crowhaven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2005 Report Share Posted January 9, 2005 Dear Madasamy, You are right - singapore is very clean and prosperous country. Correct me if I am wrong - It is not a democratic country. To govern a small country under sensible dictator is rewarding and you have right to feel proud. ABOVE ALL, YOU OBEY RULES OR ELSE PUNISHED. INDIA is a large country with diversified culture and above all democracy. Where freedom is given before education then it becomes a curse. In India too IN THEORY there are shelter homes, Free and compulsory PRIMARY EDUCATION TILL THE AGE OF 12, where children are provided regular meals. Free abortion centres and medical facilities are available. There are also Night schools run freely . HOW FAR it is put into practise, I am not aware. Most of the people with begging bowls are controlled by gangsters. Politicians dare not touch them because they are vote bankers. I leave it at that. Things can change for better with will , determination and co operation. Certainly, after 50yrs of independence we need not have to endure or witness begging bowl. raji > >I come from Singapore. You do not see beggars on the street. But >again, you may say Singapore is different. We are a small country. > >The main issue here is that, we do not have any natural resources. >Our only assets is the people. It does not help our country if we >have a lazy population. So we are being reminded since young that if >you do not help yourself, nobody will help you. If the same tidal >wave or perhaps worst were to hit singapore, we too will be come >like the Andaman & Nicobar Islands. Almost whole populations and >generations wipe out. When we saw the reality of what happen to >other countries, it remind to us too about our vulnerability. We are >just a tiny little island. > >"In India ,especially in big cities - there is vast migration >from rural India. They neither have marketable skills (WHICH CITY >DEMANDS) nor finance, NOR GOVERNMENT AID. Hence, we see them on >streets." > >In order to break the cycle of poverty, I believe is not by giving >money but by helping these people via education, teaching them new >skills etc. Poverty is not inherited, it is our own doing. Why >should we depend on Government aid all the time. What happen to the >NGO? > >"Please let us not judge rich or poor by external appearance. >Once - we closely observe or interact - we will be surprised to find >that there is not much difference in attitude of people - whether >they are from west or east. ALL THESE SHOES AND CLOTHING ARE ONLY >OUTER COVERING" > >I agree with you on this, but again Rajeshwariji please read the >whole thread again and try to understand what this whole issue about >beggars and begging is all about. Nevertheless I like to say : Thank >you for your mail and I am glad to see you back in the group again. >Hope to see you more often in the group. > > > > > > _______________ Talk with your online friends with MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.nl/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2005 Report Share Posted January 9, 2005 rajii31 wrote: You are right - singapore is very clean and prosperous country. Correct me if I am wrong - It is not a democratic country. To govern a small country under sensible dictator is rewarding and you have right to feel proud. ABOVE ALL, YOU OBEY RULES OR ELSE PUNISHED. Dearest rajii31. My statement earlier is not meant to belittle any country. You said something and I just point it out, but I believe this statement of yours is baseless. I did said we are a small country that is why it is easier to managed. Did I ever criticise India or any country? We are not here to condemn any particular country. Please if you do not know what the whole discussion is all all about, at least ask? Dont you follow rules too? Are you telling me people in India or in any other country can break rules and do anything they like and get away with it, especially if you come from a filty rich or a celebrity, you can kill or abuse anybody and the law will just close one eye? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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