Guest guest Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 In a message dated 1/15/2005 2:39:53 AM Mountain Standard Time, tangchikhay writes: > When I look at our girlfriend's blonde hair and blue eyes, and when i > caught my reflection in the mirror with her, right beside me, white > people were right -- I am exotic. But at the same time, I am also > correct, she is just as exotic to me. > > madonna is just another dancing girl working for an extra dime for > the rainy day, and as much as people gave her credit for her stripper > dancing, cross burning, jesus kissing skills, she's not to be blame > for your and my insecuritites. > > Tang Thanks Tang, From an (would love to be considered) exotic wild eyed blondie with blue eyes as i am, to an exotic wild eyed blue yonder minded one such as your self... Blessings of the Goddess, Cathie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 Art is about Freedom of Expression. I think it's not sometimes we try to be like others, but that we like things about them and incorporate them into our own -- qualities. That's the layer of Shakti isn't it? Subliminal? It doesn't have to be taken literal. Sure there are associations. I don't know the clips being referred to in these replies and obviously there are a lot of Madonna Buffs out there... I just don't turn my tv on that much. But Madonna is a creative talented and free spirited woman. so now she's a hollywood aristrcrat with her nose in the air... then one could comment on That layer, which will save me from having to comment on the thread about beggars and wealthy ones... Blessings of the Goddess, Cathie In a message dated 1/15/2005 2:39:53 AM Mountain Standard Time, tangchikhay writes: > It's quite amusing to see this article being posted in one of the > world's most unlike places - a Hindu group honoring the Mother > Goddess. Well, first and foremost, I am not a fan of Madonna, simply > because i think of her music as kindergarten material and her public > persona right about as complicated as a five piece jigsaw puzzle. > Therefore, if i sounded like i am defending pop music's most vacant > dinasour, I would have to confess that i am not guilty. > > What is a funnier trait among losers, mainly non-white races (p.s. I > am a chinaman and therefore this insults applies to me equally) is > that it is apparant that we are just impossible to be pleased. If > Madonna would wear a bindu, a sari, we hurl at her for exploiting our > culture or "exotifying" south asian culture, and if she would don a > cheong sam with a pair of jade bracelets, she's to be blame for > perpetuating the Chinese courtesan stereotype, and blah blah blah ... > However, if she choose to ignore us, we would once again accuse her > of being a typical whitey who never dares to venture out of her > comfort zone aka judeo christian culture.. So, what can she or white > people do in general to please us, the losers who are still moaning > and whinning about the colonialism that happened centuries ago? > > > This is a suggestion for all my dear Asian brothers and sisters - > Stop caring what they think about us and start concentrating on what > we THINK OF OURSELVES!!! Are we the losers who crave and slave for > European acceptance, and descend deep into hatred and depression to > find that they fail to reciprocate their love to us ? Or are the > winners who are comfortable with our skin, who groove to our music, > laugh at our weaknesses, share tea with our foreign friends and at > the end of the day, truly happy with what the Great Maha devi gave > us? > > When I look at our girlfriend's blonde hair and blue eyes, and when i > caught my reflection in the mirror with her, right beside me, white > people were right -- I am exotic. But at the same time, I am also > correct, she is just as exotic to me. > > madonna is just another dancing girl working for an extra dime for > the rainy day, and as much as people gave her credit for her stripper > dancing, cross burning, jesus kissing skills, she's not to be blame > for your and my insecuritites. > > Tang > > > , Lili Masamura <sephirah5> > wrote: > >Oh, the crucifix props were squawked about plenty at > >the time..I remember the Church all up in arms over > >that one, and everybody snickering. At the time, I > >remember thinking she would eventually do the family > >thing and then run back to the Church and brown-nose > >the Pope, and I was right about that, too. I suppose > >she dropped the Indian thing because of all those icky > >teachings about karma and renouncing the > >material...Now her latest religious trip is trying to > >get everyone to wear little red strings and celebrate > >Passover, and making "pilgrimages" to Israel. If she > >keeps that up in the public eye, she is liable to have > >a few irate Palestinians bearing gifts attend her > >concerts, which will end her career with a BANG. > > Lilith M. > >--- prainbow61 <paulie-rainbow@u...> wrote: > > > >> > >>Namaste DB, > >> > >>I'm really not sure about the point of this article. > >>Why would it be less offensive that > >>Madonna made crucifixes into props than when she > >>made saris into props? > >> > >>And I really don't believe in "reverse racism" > >>racism is racism, period. > >> > >>Overall, I think that there is a real problem with > >>the fact that the consumer culture in the > >>U.S. is blind and unthinking. We insist on one > >>language, we gun down brown people that > >>we mistake for other brown people...etc etc. We > >>don't take responsibility for our effects on > >>the world and we don't make it profitable for the > >>media to feed us anything but candy. > >> > >>The venom that is being spewed out at the female pop > >>idols that are at the front of this > >>makes no sense to me. Why isn't there a thread about > >>Rupert Murdoch? > >> > >>To me, attacking the symptom is just another way of > >>refusing to recognize the real > >>problem. > >> > >>Blessings, > >> > >>pr > >> > >>, "Devi Bhakta" > >><devi_bhakta> wrote: > >>> > >>>[i posted this once before, back when it first > >>came out, but I can't > >>>find it in the archives now, so here it is again > >>-- for those who are > >>>riding this strange Madonna thread:] > >>> > >>>WHY I HATE MADONNA: > >>>Subtle Racisms and the Exotification of My South > >>Asian Self > >>> > >>>by Sriya Shrestha > >>> > >>>Sitting in NYU classrooms, I am struck by the > >>extremely light, tiptoe > >>>approach students take when it comes to racial > >>issues. They strain to > >>>make sure they leave only tiny marks behind, > >>nothing to offend > >>>anyone. Nothing can be said, no generalizations > >>can be made, because > >>>that would be prejudiced, stereotypical and > >>negative. > >>> > >>>Yet in taking these painfully planned baby steps, > >>most manage to be > >>>grossly ignorant, racist and ridiculous - usually > >>without even > >>>noticing. Still, everyone continues to strain for > >>those tiny steps. > >>>During a small group discussion on everyday racism > >>in my South Asian > >>>diaspora class, my classmates were constantly > >>qualifying their > >>>statements: "Not all [blanks] do this, of course, > >>just some." When I > >>>mentioned that I am often exotified, seen with > >>disgusting oriental > >>>fantasies by white men, and never Asian men, my > >>white male groupmate > >>>delicately reminded me I was on the verge of > >>making a gross > >>>generalization. I replied that it was not a > >>generalization; it was > >>>the truth. But wait, I was reminded, you don't > >>want to say that all > >>>white men would look at you like that and that no > >>Asian men would. > >>>That is true; I did not want to say that, and I > >>hadn't. > >>> > >>>What I think my concerned classmate was doing was > >>simply mentioning > >>>that some - not him necessarily - may think I was > >>being a reverse- > >>>racist. And I believe this same deep-seated white > >>fear of reverse > >>>racism fueled the sudden, fierce anger expressed > >>by some white (or > >>>should I call them Caucasian?) students during a > >>later discussion at > >>>the idea that perhaps there was something slightly > >>more offensive > >>>about Madonna wearing a bindi, sari and henna then > >>there was about > >>>her donning and defaming the Catholic cross. White > >>kids think the > >>>same rules apply to them, about what can be said > >>and what can't, and > >>>in my experience many students of color feel the > >>same way. Nearly > >>>everyone at NYU shudders at the thought of > >>offending anyone, but what > >>>they lack is actual knowledge of what is > >>offensive, how and why. > >>>Rather, they attempt to be politically correct, > >>using terms like > >>>African-American and Hispanic, but still managing > >>to claim that a > >>>black student has the same benefits as a white one > >>if they both come > >>>from an elite private school or that Latino > >>immigrant workers should > >>>be grateful for the low-wage, exploitative jobs > >>they find in the > >>>United States. These PC pushers still manage to be > >>out of touch with > >>>reality, out of touch with what racism, sexism, > >>heterosexism and > >>>prejudice really is. > >>> > >>>They do not understand that a history exists that > >>makes Madonna's > >>>flippant, fleeting usage of South Asian-Hindu > >>fashion and culture a > >>>bit offensive. A history in which we have been the > >>source of the > >>>West's stories of mystery, enchantment, oddity and > >>the exotic. We > >>>have always been trinkets and charming tales. We > >>are brass pots and > >>>spiritual men who can float; and tongue-tickling > >>spices and thick, > >>>luxurious rugs; and skinny, starvation-swelled > >>bellies standing in a > >>>brown mass waiting to be saved by British food and > >>religion. We are > >>>the women who, due to a lack of a strong > >>Western-style feminism, > >>>starve, suffocate and drown our baby girls for not > >>being baby boys. > >>>We are anything but human. > >>> > >>>And now, many years after British colonialism, in > >>a global market run > >>>by U.S. imperialism, we are once again remembered > >>by our trinkets. > >>>While South Asian women remain invisible in U.S. > >>pop culture, they > >>>are now seen painted on Madonna's hands, > >>glittering on her forehead, > >>>wrapped around her personal-trainer-trimmed white > >>body. We are her > >>>toys, her fashion, her flavor of the month. We are > >>alternative > >>>lifestyles full of spirituality, meditation, > >>incense, homeopathy and > >>>relaxation. We are frozen samosas and TV-dinner > >>channa masala at the > >>>local grocery and iced chai lattes at Starbucks. > >>> > >>>And suddenly now we are also frightening, fiendish > >>and dangerous. We > >>>are fearing for our lives and livelihoods because > >>we have been > >>>transformed from trinkets to terrorists. Our > >>foreignness has become > >>>less charming and increasingly frightening. And > >>Madonna's phase of > >>>wearing us on her body has only made it easier for > >>us to be targeted. > >>>She reduced us, or reinforced an already existing > >>reduction, to > >>>inhuman, fashionable baubles. And it is not > >>difficult to stop giving > >>>visas to a bindi or a set of gold bangles. Nobody > >>has qualms about > >>>jumping or shooting several yards of rich, > >>luxurious silk. Who would > >>>mind throwing thousands of Buddha, Shiva and Laxmi > >>print T-shirts > >>>into detention camps without explanation or > >>lawyers? After all, ultra- > >>>fashionable tops do not need legal representation. > >> > >>> > >>>So I think that when Madonna stretches the > >>boundaries of Catholicism, > >>>uses a cross to criticize the racist, white > >>supremacy and > >>>puritanical, sexually-repressive aspects of her > >>religion, it is quite > >>>different than her playing dress-up with a culture > >>that no one owns, > >>>but that she can still certainly exploit. I'm sure > >>if she had not > >> > >=== message truncated === Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 It's quite amusing to see this article being posted in one of the world's most unlike places - a Hindu group honoring the Mother Goddess. Well, first and foremost, I am not a fan of Madonna, simply because i think of her music as kindergarten material and her public persona right about as complicated as a five piece jigsaw puzzle. Therefore, if i sounded like i am defending pop music's most vacant dinasour, I would have to confess that i am not guilty. What is a funnier trait among losers, mainly non-white races (p.s. I am a chinaman and therefore this insults applies to me equally) is that it is apparant that we are just impossible to be pleased. If Madonna would wear a bindu, a sari, we hurl at her for exploiting our culture or "exotifying" south asian culture, and if she would don a cheong sam with a pair of jade bracelets, she's to be blame for perpetuating the Chinese courtesan stereotype, and blah blah blah ... However, if she choose to ignore us, we would once again accuse her of being a typical whitey who never dares to venture out of her comfort zone aka judeo christian culture.. So, what can she or white people do in general to please us, the losers who are still moaning and whinning about the colonialism that happened centuries ago? This is a suggestion for all my dear Asian brothers and sisters - Stop caring what they think about us and start concentrating on what we THINK OF OURSELVES!!! Are we the losers who crave and slave for European acceptance, and descend deep into hatred and depression to find that they fail to reciprocate their love to us ? Or are the winners who are comfortable with our skin, who groove to our music, laugh at our weaknesses, share tea with our foreign friends and at the end of the day, truly happy with what the Great Maha devi gave us? When I look at our girlfriend's blonde hair and blue eyes, and when i caught my reflection in the mirror with her, right beside me, white people were right -- I am exotic. But at the same time, I am also correct, she is just as exotic to me. madonna is just another dancing girl working for an extra dime for the rainy day, and as much as people gave her credit for her stripper dancing, cross burning, jesus kissing skills, she's not to be blame for your and my insecuritites. Tang , Lili Masamura <sephirah5> wrote: > Oh, the crucifix props were squawked about plenty at > the time..I remember the Church all up in arms over > that one, and everybody snickering. At the time, I > remember thinking she would eventually do the family > thing and then run back to the Church and brown-nose > the Pope, and I was right about that, too. I suppose > she dropped the Indian thing because of all those icky > teachings about karma and renouncing the > material...Now her latest religious trip is trying to > get everyone to wear little red strings and celebrate > Passover, and making "pilgrimages" to Israel. If she > keeps that up in the public eye, she is liable to have > a few irate Palestinians bearing gifts attend her > concerts, which will end her career with a BANG. > Lilith M. > --- prainbow61 <paulie-rainbow@u...> wrote: > > > > > Namaste DB, > > > > I'm really not sure about the point of this article. > > Why would it be less offensive that > > Madonna made crucifixes into props than when she > > made saris into props? > > > > And I really don't believe in "reverse racism" > > racism is racism, period. > > > > Overall, I think that there is a real problem with > > the fact that the consumer culture in the > > U.S. is blind and unthinking. We insist on one > > language, we gun down brown people that > > we mistake for other brown people...etc etc. We > > don't take responsibility for our effects on > > the world and we don't make it profitable for the > > media to feed us anything but candy. > > > > The venom that is being spewed out at the female pop > > idols that are at the front of this > > makes no sense to me. Why isn't there a thread about > > Rupert Murdoch? > > > > To me, attacking the symptom is just another way of > > refusing to recognize the real > > problem. > > > > Blessings, > > > > pr > > > > , "Devi Bhakta" > > <devi_bhakta> wrote: > > > > > > [i posted this once before, back when it first > > came out, but I can't > > > find it in the archives now, so here it is again > > -- for those who are > > > riding this strange Madonna thread:] > > > > > > WHY I HATE MADONNA: > > > Subtle Racisms and the Exotification of My South > > Asian Self > > > > > > by Sriya Shrestha > > > > > > Sitting in NYU classrooms, I am struck by the > > extremely light, tiptoe > > > approach students take when it comes to racial > > issues. They strain to > > > make sure they leave only tiny marks behind, > > nothing to offend > > > anyone. Nothing can be said, no generalizations > > can be made, because > > > that would be prejudiced, stereotypical and > > negative. > > > > > > Yet in taking these painfully planned baby steps, > > most manage to be > > > grossly ignorant, racist and ridiculous - usually > > without even > > > noticing. Still, everyone continues to strain for > > those tiny steps. > > > During a small group discussion on everyday racism > > in my South Asian > > > diaspora class, my classmates were constantly > > qualifying their > > > statements: "Not all [blanks] do this, of course, > > just some." When I > > > mentioned that I am often exotified, seen with > > disgusting oriental > > > fantasies by white men, and never Asian men, my > > white male groupmate > > > delicately reminded me I was on the verge of > > making a gross > > > generalization. I replied that it was not a > > generalization; it was > > > the truth. But wait, I was reminded, you don't > > want to say that all > > > white men would look at you like that and that no > > Asian men would. > > > That is true; I did not want to say that, and I > > hadn't. > > > > > > What I think my concerned classmate was doing was > > simply mentioning > > > that some - not him necessarily - may think I was > > being a reverse- > > > racist. And I believe this same deep-seated white > > fear of reverse > > > racism fueled the sudden, fierce anger expressed > > by some white (or > > > should I call them Caucasian?) students during a > > later discussion at > > > the idea that perhaps there was something slightly > > more offensive > > > about Madonna wearing a bindi, sari and henna then > > there was about > > > her donning and defaming the Catholic cross. White > > kids think the > > > same rules apply to them, about what can be said > > and what can't, and > > > in my experience many students of color feel the > > same way. Nearly > > > everyone at NYU shudders at the thought of > > offending anyone, but what > > > they lack is actual knowledge of what is > > offensive, how and why. > > > Rather, they attempt to be politically correct, > > using terms like > > > African-American and Hispanic, but still managing > > to claim that a > > > black student has the same benefits as a white one > > if they both come > > > from an elite private school or that Latino > > immigrant workers should > > > be grateful for the low-wage, exploitative jobs > > they find in the > > > United States. These PC pushers still manage to be > > out of touch with > > > reality, out of touch with what racism, sexism, > > heterosexism and > > > prejudice really is. > > > > > > They do not understand that a history exists that > > makes Madonna's > > > flippant, fleeting usage of South Asian-Hindu > > fashion and culture a > > > bit offensive. A history in which we have been the > > source of the > > > West's stories of mystery, enchantment, oddity and > > the exotic. We > > > have always been trinkets and charming tales. We > > are brass pots and > > > spiritual men who can float; and tongue-tickling > > spices and thick, > > > luxurious rugs; and skinny, starvation-swelled > > bellies standing in a > > > brown mass waiting to be saved by British food and > > religion. We are > > > the women who, due to a lack of a strong > > Western-style feminism, > > > starve, suffocate and drown our baby girls for not > > being baby boys. > > > We are anything but human. > > > > > > And now, many years after British colonialism, in > > a global market run > > > by U.S. imperialism, we are once again remembered > > by our trinkets. > > > While South Asian women remain invisible in U.S. > > pop culture, they > > > are now seen painted on Madonna's hands, > > glittering on her forehead, > > > wrapped around her personal-trainer-trimmed white > > body. We are her > > > toys, her fashion, her flavor of the month. We are > > alternative > > > lifestyles full of spirituality, meditation, > > incense, homeopathy and > > > relaxation. We are frozen samosas and TV-dinner > > channa masala at the > > > local grocery and iced chai lattes at Starbucks. > > > > > > And suddenly now we are also frightening, fiendish > > and dangerous. We > > > are fearing for our lives and livelihoods because > > we have been > > > transformed from trinkets to terrorists. Our > > foreignness has become > > > less charming and increasingly frightening. And > > Madonna's phase of > > > wearing us on her body has only made it easier for > > us to be targeted. > > > She reduced us, or reinforced an already existing > > reduction, to > > > inhuman, fashionable baubles. And it is not > > difficult to stop giving > > > visas to a bindi or a set of gold bangles. Nobody > > has qualms about > > > jumping or shooting several yards of rich, > > luxurious silk. Who would > > > mind throwing thousands of Buddha, Shiva and Laxmi > > print T-shirts > > > into detention camps without explanation or > > lawyers? After all, ultra- > > > fashionable tops do not need legal representation. > > > > > > > > So I think that when Madonna stretches the > > boundaries of Catholicism, > > > uses a cross to criticize the racist, white > > supremacy and > > > puritanical, sexually-repressive aspects of her > > religion, it is quite > > > different than her playing dress-up with a culture > > that no one owns, > > > but that she can still certainly exploit. I'm sure > > if she had not > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > > Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. > http://info.mail./mail_250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 Hello tangchikhay, thank you. Eventually you have decided to join in. tangchikhay wrote: "It's quite amusing to see this article being posted in one of the world's most unlike places - a Hindu group honoring the Mother Goddess" Good you should come here more often. We even post on how to cook pudding rice once. [ rememeber that Devi Bhakta ! lol!] and I posted on World Cup Fever. So nothing is odd in Devi's group. She is everything. See weather you can surprise us with other topics? "What is a funnier trait among losers, mainly non-white races (p.s. I am a chinaman and therefore this insults applies to me equally) is that it is apparant that we are just impossible to be pleased. If Madonna would wear a bindu, a sari, we hurl at her for exploiting our culture or "exotifying" south asian culture, and if she would don a cheong sam with a pair of jade bracelets, she's to be blame for perpetuating the Chinese courtesan stereotype, and blah blah blah ... " I remember somewhere sometime back about a University [ sorry I forgot which one ] have started a subject called : Madonnalogy . A subject specially to study this Madonna phenomenon. When I read about it, I thought : those people are crazy, now after reading all those messages here about Madonna in our group, I began to understand. Just imagine if she can invoke such strong feelings of hatred and dislike from spiritual person like Lili Masamura, what others emotions have she stirred in others. It is interesting to study them yes! As soon as I read Lili Masamura messages, I remembers a poem I used to recite long time ago : The Pipe Piper. It is a long poem but allow me to post the last few verses, for I thought its really beautiful and sad. XII. Once more he stept into the street And to his lips again Laid his long pipe of smooth straight cane; And ere he blew three notes (such sweet Soft notes as yet musician's cunning Never gave the enraptured air) There was a rustling that seemed like a bustling Of merry crowds justling at pitching and hustling, Small feet were pattering, wooden shoes clattering, Little hands clapping and little tongues chattering, And, like fowls in a farm-yard when barley is scattering, Out came the children running. All the little boys and girls, With rosy cheeks and flaxen curls, And sparkling eyes and teeth like pearls, Tripping and skipping, ran merrily after The wonderful music with shouting and laughter. XIII. The Mayor was dumb, and the Council stood As if they were changed into blocks of wood, Unable to move a step, or cry To the children merrily skipping by, ---Could only follow with the eye That joyous crowd at the Piper's back. But how the Mayor was on the rack, And the wretched Council's bosoms beat, As the Piper turned from the High Street To where the Weser rolled its waters Right in the way of their sons and daughters! However be turned from South to West, And to Koppelberg Hill his steps addressed, And after him the children pressed; Great was the joy in every breast. ``He never can cross that mighty top! ``He's forced to let the piping drop, ``And we shall see our children stop!'' When, lo, as they reached the mountain-side, A wondrous portal opened wide, As if a cavern was suddenly hollowed; And the Piper advanced and the children followed, And when all were in to the very last, The door in the mountain-side shut fast. Did I say, all? No! One was lame, What does The Pipe Piper got to do with Madonna. Not sure, but when I read Lili messages about Madonna, The Pipe Piper comes into my mind. I saw the rats : You heard as if an army muttered; And the muttering grew to a grumbling; And the grumbling grew to a mighty rumbling; And out of the houses the rats came tumbling. Great rats, small rats, lean rats, brawny rats, Brown rats, black rats, grey rats, tawny rats, Grave old plodders, gay young friskers, Fathers, mothers, uncles, cousins, Cocking tails and pricking whiskers, Families by tens and dozens, Brothers, sisters, husbands, wives--- Followed the Piper for their lives. >From street to street he piped advancing, And step for step they followed dancing, Until they came to the river Weser, Wherein all plunged and perished! Perhaps that is why I kinda of like Madonna. I have all her CDS and I still listen and watch her music videos. And when my daughter asked: Who's that girl? I remarked: A girl who is daring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 Hi Nora: Thanks for sharing about the Piper. Is that poem by Robert Browning? I have never really understood the story, nor looked it up before, so I went online to look up some interpretations. I knew there was something being hinted at as evil in the sweet allure of the music, but I think that could be chalked up to the parents' fear of losing control of their children, because the children respond from within to something that does not come from the parents. And music touches so deeply, and comes from something mysterious within. Of course, conscious, loving parents would fear that the children may be led to harm or ruin, but some just fear losing control. "Kind of like" Madonna, and you have ALL of her CDs and videos? You are a true fan! I found an interesting article at: http://www.ims.uni-stuttgart.de/~jonas/Scutts-article.html that is too long to post in its entirety, but here is some of it for anyone who is interested: "There has been much discussion of the historical origins of the story. Was the Piper a ratcatcher cheated of his just remuneration? Was he a recruiting agent for a military campaign? Was he the instigator of an emigration to Rumania, the German colonies in the Baltic region or the Holy Land? That no one has as yet found conclusive evidence for any of these contentions may well point to the secret of the legend's appeal to both the popular and the poetic imagination; through the centuries the legend has shown itself open to reinterpretation without losing its identity as a nexus of associations based on a common theme. The story links myth and history, the supernatural and the world of daily experience. ... We have seen that the figure of the Piper was identified with Death in the late Middle Ages. However, in what is probably the original version of the story, that told by the inscription on the Rattenfängerhaus any value judgement as to the Piper's intentions is withheld. Even the nature of the children's fate is left open to conjecture. Did they perish or simply disappear? The word "lost" leaves both possibilities open. The versions of the tale written in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries present the Piper as an evil musician and seducer of the young. The first volume of Des Knaben Wunderhorn, an anthology of German folksongs which Achim von Arnim and Clemens Brentano published in 1806, includes a ballad in which the Piper is depicted as a malicious and sinister fellow who steals children from their parents and disrupts the most basic social ties. Any literal interpretation of the story must present the Piper as a kidnapper. Treated metaphorically, however, the figure may be cast in a positive light. It was significantly in the wake of the Romantic movement that a fundamental change in attitude towards the Piper, the gipsy and the outsider took place. At the same time the legend of the Piper passed from the domain of the folktale and derivative prose narratives such as those written by G. Schott, Dr. J. Wier and R. Verstegen, to that of literature proper.7 Thereafter, treatments of the legend expressed the particular poetic vision of such poets as Blake, Goethe, Browning and Apollinaire. After a survey of the basic symbolic associations common to the legend and all works subject to its influence, a poem by each of these authors will be examined. The story of the Pied Piper or Der Rattenfänger links the idea of music (usually but not always played on a pipe) with the image of a child. This linking goes far to elucidate the reason for the legend's appeal to poets from the Romantic period onwards. M.H. Abrams stresses in The Mirror and the Lamp that music was to the Romantics what the pictorial arts were to their predecessors--a metaphor most suited to express the quintessential nature of poetry. As to the child motif, the mere mention of such poets as Blake and Wordsworth will recall its great significance as a symbol of innocence and rejuvenation. The Piper himself takes on positive child-like qualities. Another association evoked by the Piper which is perhaps less obvious than those of music and childhood is his association with time. .... Time may be associated with music no less than with life and death. Musical rhythms, song, dance and poetic metre all depend in various ways on the human being's inborn sense of time. ..." I will stop here. I have been listening to Deepak Chopra lately (on CD), and he talks about the intellect's "timebound awareness" that causes aging and death, and the "timeless awareness" that is one's knowledge/experience of God, Devi, Universal Consciousness, or whatever you want to call it. , "NMadasamy" <nmadasamy@s...> wrote: > > Hello tangchikhay, thank you. Eventually you have decided to join > in. > > tangchikhay wrote: > > "It's quite amusing to see this article being posted in one of > the world's most unlike places - a Hindu group honoring the Mother > Goddess" > > Good you should come here more often. We even post on how to cook > pudding rice once. [ rememeber that Devi Bhakta ! lol!] and I posted > on World Cup Fever. So nothing is odd in Devi's group. She is > everything. See weather you can surprise us with other topics? > > "What is a funnier trait among losers, mainly non-white races > (p.s. I am a chinaman and therefore this insults applies to me > equally) is that it is apparant that we are just impossible to be > pleased. If Madonna would wear a bindu, a sari, we hurl at her for > exploiting our culture or "exotifying" south asian culture, and if > she would don a cheong sam with a pair of jade bracelets, she's to > be blame for perpetuating the Chinese courtesan stereotype, and blah > blah blah ... " > > I remember somewhere sometime back about a University [ sorry I > forgot which one ] have started a subject called : Madonnalogy . A > subject specially to study this Madonna phenomenon. When I read > about it, I thought : those people are crazy, now after reading all > those messages here about Madonna in our group, I began to > understand. Just imagine if she can invoke such strong feelings of > hatred and dislike from spiritual person like Lili Masamura, what > others emotions have she stirred in others. It is interesting to > study them yes! > > As soon as I read Lili Masamura messages, I remembers a poem I used > to recite long time ago : The Pipe Piper. It is a long poem but > allow me to post the last few verses, for I thought its really > beautiful and sad. > > XII. > > Once more he stept into the street > And to his lips again > Laid his long pipe of smooth straight cane; > And ere he blew three notes (such sweet > Soft notes as yet musician's cunning > Never gave the enraptured air) > There was a rustling that seemed like a bustling > Of merry crowds justling at pitching and hustling, > Small feet were pattering, wooden shoes clattering, > Little hands clapping and little tongues chattering, > And, like fowls in a farm-yard when barley is scattering, > Out came the children running. > All the little boys and girls, > With rosy cheeks and flaxen curls, > And sparkling eyes and teeth like pearls, > Tripping and skipping, ran merrily after > The wonderful music with shouting and laughter. > > XIII. > > The Mayor was dumb, and the Council stood > As if they were changed into blocks of wood, > Unable to move a step, or cry > To the children merrily skipping by, > ---Could only follow with the eye > That joyous crowd at the Piper's back. > But how the Mayor was on the rack, > And the wretched Council's bosoms beat, > As the Piper turned from the High Street > To where the Weser rolled its waters > Right in the way of their sons and daughters! > However be turned from South to West, > And to Koppelberg Hill his steps addressed, > And after him the children pressed; > Great was the joy in every breast. > ``He never can cross that mighty top! > ``He's forced to let the piping drop, > ``And we shall see our children stop!'' > When, lo, as they reached the mountain-side, > A wondrous portal opened wide, > As if a cavern was suddenly hollowed; > And the Piper advanced and the children followed, > And when all were in to the very last, > The door in the mountain-side shut fast. > Did I say, all? No! One was lame, > > What does The Pipe Piper got to do with Madonna. Not sure, but when > I read Lili messages about Madonna, The Pipe Piper comes into my > mind. I saw the rats : > > You heard as if an army muttered; > And the muttering grew to a grumbling; > And the grumbling grew to a mighty rumbling; > And out of the houses the rats came tumbling. > Great rats, small rats, lean rats, brawny rats, > Brown rats, black rats, grey rats, tawny rats, > Grave old plodders, gay young friskers, > Fathers, mothers, uncles, cousins, > Cocking tails and pricking whiskers, > Families by tens and dozens, > Brothers, sisters, husbands, wives--- > Followed the Piper for their lives. > From street to street he piped advancing, > And step for step they followed dancing, > Until they came to the river Weser, > Wherein all plunged and perished! > > > Perhaps that is why I kinda of like Madonna. I have all her CDS and > I still listen and watch her music videos. And when my daughter > asked: Who's that girl? I remarked: A girl who is daring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 buttercookie61 wrote: "Kind of like" Madonna, and you have ALL of her CDs and videos? You are a true fan! hmmmm I would not consider myself as a true fan. I do not have a specific Music idol. This is how I approach Music : I listen to the sound first. The different musical instrument that are being used in this particualar music. And try to "see" how all these different instrument blend themselves with one another to produce such beautiful sound. Then I listen to the lyrics. Trying to go into the lyricist mind : on how he/she able to come up with such words and the way they runs from one word to another. Next is the voice and the last is the physical appearance of that voice. To me the same goes with Madonna. When I watch her music video, I like to go beyond that physical appearance. The way she moves, dance or dressed up for specific music video and why. Maybe tedious, but to me that is how I see. Like many other musical personality, she fascinates me. Though sometimes I do not agree with her, instead of wasting my time condemning her , I like to reason it out, and what can I learn from this person. The real fact is that Madonna will be Madonna. She will continue to be recognise as one of the most contraversial musical icon. She will continue to win more awards and I am told she just got herself into the England Hall of Fame. So she will continue to be rich. After all she is the material girl, so her bank account and her balance sheet will definitely be in a surplus all the time. But what about us. We are so called spiritualist, how much do we have right now in our "bank account". How healthy is our balance sheet? How much have we credit into our "bank account" lately? To me all these condemnation on another is like a withdrawal into our "bank account". We withdraw all the time, Do we put in anything back? SHould there be withdrawals in the first place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Ok, Nora. I only ever buy all of someone's work when I'm a true fan, but that's me. Do you have "Justify My Love?" That's the only video of hers I own. Very clever analogy of Madonna the self-proclaimed material girl living true to her nature vs. self-proclaimed spiritualists being hateful. Guess that isn't only a fundamentalist Christian tendency. , "NMadasamy" <nmadasamy@s...> wrote: > > buttercookie61 wrote: "Kind of like" Madonna, and you have ALL of > her CDs and videos? You are a true fan! > > > hmmmm I would not consider myself as a true fan. I do not have a > specific Music idol. This is how I approach Music : I listen to the > sound first. The different musical instrument that are being used > in this particualar music. And try to "see" how all these > different instrument blend themselves with one another to produce > such beautiful sound. Then I listen to the lyrics. Trying to go > into the lyricist mind : on how he/she able to come up with such > words and the way they runs from one word to another. Next is the > voice and the last is the physical appearance of that voice. > > To me the same goes with Madonna. When I watch her music video, I > like to go beyond that physical appearance. The way she moves, > dance or dressed up for specific music video and why. Maybe > tedious, but to me that is how I see. Like many other musical > personality, she fascinates me. Though sometimes I do not agree > with her, instead of wasting my time condemning her , I like to > reason it out, and what can I learn from this person. > > The real fact is that Madonna will be Madonna. She will continue to > be recognise as one of the most contraversial musical icon. She will > continue to win more awards and I am told she just got herself into > the England Hall of Fame. So she will continue to be rich. After all > she is the material girl, so her bank account and her balance sheet > will definitely be in a surplus all the time. But what about us. We > are so called spiritualist, how much do we have right now in > our "bank account". How healthy is our balance sheet? How > much have we credit into our "bank account" lately? To me all > these > condemnation on another is like a withdrawal into our "bank > account". We withdraw all the time, Do we put in anything back? > SHould there be withdrawals in the first place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 In a message dated 1/15/2005 8:51:26 PM Mountain Standard Time, nmadasamy writes: > To me the same goes with Madonna. When I watch her music video, I > like to go beyond that physical appearance. The way she moves, > dance or dressed up for specific music video and why. Maybe > tedious, but to me that is how I see. Like many other musical > personality, she fascinates me. Though sometimes I do not agree > with her, instead of wasting my time condemning her , I like to > reason it out, and what can I learn from this person. > > The real fact is that Madonna will be Madonna I think the tendency to condemn others comes from the theology of original sin: the idea that we are all born full of sin and need to suffer to get our sin out. Matthew Fox's book, "Original Blessing" says we are each born full of Blessing from the Creator. I think this is a healtheir way to see the world. Hildegard of Bingen he ways was a Creation Centered spiritual not a Sin-Fall-Redemption. Creation Centered thinking says each moment is perfection each moment of creation each person as they are right now in the process of being and becoming is perfect in the eyes of the Creator. Blessings of the Goddess, Cathie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 In a message dated 1/15/2005 8:51:26 PM Mountain Standard Time, nmadasamy writes: > To me the same goes with Madonna. When I watch her music video, I > like to go beyond that physical appearance. The way she moves, > dance or dressed up for specific music video and why. Maybe > tedious, but to me that is how I see. Like many other musical > personality, she fascinates me. Though sometimes I do not agree > with her, instead of wasting my time condemning her , I like to > reason it out, and what can I learn from this person. > > The real fact is that Madonna will be Madonna. ooops. i meant also to say that it seems simple to say that Madonna will be Madonna, but this is also biblical and very ancient from the bible when Moses asked God His name in the O.T. of the Bible, God is reported to have said something in Hebrew which I learned in a theology class back in college means, "I am as I am." or Really more accurately and at the very least alteranately, "I will be as I will be." So, it is with the Spirit that Moves within us as the Implicate Unfolding into the Explicate... Blesssings of the Goddess, Cathie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 PREACH THE WORD BROTHER!!!! YOU SAID IT RIGHT!!!! But why complain about Madonna when the East have been adopting Western culture anyway such as much and everyday outfits? The all-new My - Get yours free! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 East will absorb anything good. but not anything and everything Pamele Brooks <pbabc2002 wrote: PREACH THE WORD BROTHER!!!! YOU SAID IT RIGHT!!!! But why complain about Madonna when the East have been adopting Western culture anyway such as much and everyday outfits? The all-new My - Get yours free! / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 This entire argument is growing tiring. It is not a simple duality of East = Good, and West = Bad. Shakti Sadhana should be *beyond* dualities of East and West, Man and Woman, Good and Bad. The Devi is the Jagat-Mata - the World Mother. When we talk about Eastern Culture and Western Debauchery, we must realize that both are deeply rooted in Mahamaya and Mahamoha - Great Illusion and Great Deception. This turmoil our world is going through with the "Clash of Cultures" is only the Devi trying to teach us something. All we can do is pray to the Devi to grant us Her blessing of Vidya-Maya - Enlightenment - and show us a way out. Please, let's stop this and talk about the Devi again. -Santo "Aum Shantih Shantih Shantih!" sankara menon wrote: > East will absorb anything good. but not anything and everything > > Pamele Brooks <pbabc2002 wrote: > PREACH THE WORD BROTHER!!!! YOU SAID IT RIGHT!!!! But > why complain about Madonna when the East have been > adopting Western culture anyway such as much and > everyday outfits? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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