Guest guest Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Another thing to consider n allthis, is that Madonna WAS raised in a very traditional catholic home. with catholic values. I do believe the themes she chooses are personally REAL issues for her often. I feel sex is/has-been a big issue for her. In her private life she's been very sexually rebellious and strove against the rigid catholic upbringing which instills so much guilt. The fact that there are so many others like her out there, longing to be free from the guilt trip trap of so much reliigion, creates the perfect environment for madonna parading her personal issues on stage to be a BIG PROFIT enterprise. So she capitalizes on it, but as Nora said, this stuff doesn't just come up from nowhere for no reason... I agree also with what you said about childhood abuse, and to some extent the drug use. BUT, there is a LOT of weed use in the youth of today that does not lead to anything destructive these kids grow up and have families and jobs. But there is a mix of certain kinds of drugs and if the parents are into them, they are often very troubled people, and often pass on very conflicted and troubled values to their kids, even if they didn't actually Abuse them perse, but as you point out, often that is the case. Peace, Cathie In a message dated 1/17/2005 7:32:10 AM Mountain Standard Time, paulie-rainbow writes: > Namaste, > > Actually I've done a lot of work involving folks "in transition" over the > years, some > counseling, some group facilitating, some hot line work, some intervention, > etc and have > known a fair amount of women who earned money in the sex industry. > > I would agree with you about Madonna ( and even Britney) they seem to be > much more > attached to images of unicorns. I don't know what it is about unicorns, but > I have never > known a hooker who did not have a unicorn somewhere in her decor and > sometimes a lot > of them. Okay, I have not always seen their living spaces so this might be a > generalization, > but it still impressed me with its seeming consistency. > > Additionally the two factors that seemed to most point to a future of this > kind were > childhood abuse and drug use. Not pop culture. Not at all. That may have > changed a little > with the ubiquitousness of hip hop and it's glorification of "stripper > chic"....which we > haven't even touched here...but Britney and Madonna have not been players in > this at all. > > My feeling is that our culture is so sex negative that sex work for money > cannot be > anything other than deeply stigmatized and therefore cannot be other than > very self > destructive, and hence I see that drug use and sex work are a circle. Again, > no pop music > involved. > > Which makes me again reflect on the contradictions that I saw in India. I > was in a society > that appeared extremely conservative and modest, yet the statues and images > of the > divine where very sexual. And I'm given to understand that sex workers are > deeply > stigmatized, and that reluctance to deal with sexual matters openly is > causing difficulty in > slowing down the spread of AIDS. I just don't know how to balance out and > understand it. > > About Madonna and sex, I feel that she chose sex as a theme because it is > very powerful > and provocative and that her work was about exposing the different > relationships and > dynamics in sex...including virginity, sex work, promiscuity,pornography, > homosexuality > and overall ownership. She was constantly looking at sex from the p.o.v. > that ultimately > she owned her own sexuality regardless of the role that she played and this > is what I found > very powerful. > > Namaste, > > prainbow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Namaste, Actually I've done a lot of work involving folks "in transition" over the years, some counseling, some group facilitating, some hot line work, some intervention, etc and have known a fair amount of women who earned money in the sex industry. I would agree with you about Madonna ( and even Britney) they seem to be much more attached to images of unicorns. I don't know what it is about unicorns, but I have never known a hooker who did not have a unicorn somewhere in her decor and sometimes a lot of them. Okay, I have not always seen their living spaces so this might be a generalization, but it still impressed me with its seeming consistency. Additionally the two factors that seemed to most point to a future of this kind were childhood abuse and drug use. Not pop culture. Not at all. That may have changed a little with the ubiquitousness of hip hop and it's glorification of "stripper chic"....which we haven't even touched here...but Britney and Madonna have not been players in this at all. My feeling is that our culture is so sex negative that sex work for money cannot be anything other than deeply stigmatized and therefore cannot be other than very self destructive, and hence I see that drug use and sex work are a circle. Again, no pop music involved. Which makes me again reflect on the contradictions that I saw in India. I was in a society that appeared extremely conservative and modest, yet the statues and images of the divine where very sexual. And I'm given to understand that sex workers are deeply stigmatized, and that reluctance to deal with sexual matters openly is causing difficulty in slowing down the spread of AIDS. I just don't know how to balance out and understand it. About Madonna and sex, I feel that she chose sex as a theme because it is very powerful and provocative and that her work was about exposing the different relationships and dynamics in sex...including virginity, sex work, promiscuity,pornography, homosexuality and overall ownership. She was constantly looking at sex from the p.o.v. that ultimately she owned her own sexuality regardless of the role that she played and this is what I found very powerful. Namaste, prainbow , SophiasHeaven@a... wrote: > Less than five years ago, I knew a woman who worked as a lap dancer in a > strip club. > Less than five years ago, or approximately that long ago, I knew a > hooker once (not the same woman as the lap dancer). > IN my impression of madonnna and her music, i do NOT see a cult > following of her among the younger generation in fact the younger generation seem to > care LESS about madonna and it seems to me she draws the older women at least > college aged, who have a value toward freedom about their sexuality, but > absolutely NO tendency nor desire to be either strippers or hookers... > I seriously Doubt a trip to the local present-time strip bar, would > reveal a hoard of madonna followers. I seriously Doubt she intends to send out > the image of free, wholesale sex. Rather, she seems to be political in an > artsy kind of basic way, about sex and power dynamics in a way that says women > should reClaim their freedom and their power and NOT give it away wholesale to > Men ... > > maybe i have misunderstood something, > peace, > cathie > In a message dated 1/16/2005 5:56:13 PM Mountain Standard Time, > sephirah5 writes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 --- prainbow61 <paulie-rainbow wrote: > > Namaste, > > Actually I've done a lot of work involving folks "in > transition" over the years, some > counseling, some group facilitating, some hot line > work, some intervention, etc and have > known a fair amount of women who earned money in the > sex industry. > > I would agree with you about Madonna ( and even > Britney) they seem to be much more > attached to images of unicorns. I don't know what it > is about unicorns, but I have never > known a hooker who did not have a unicorn somewhere > in her decor and sometimes a lot > of them. Okay, I have not always seen their living > spaces so this might be a generalization, > but it still impressed me with its seeming > consistency. ################################################## Actually, if you understand the unicorn as a symbol of the sublimated Divine Masculine, it is no surprise at all that this image would find favour among the priestesshood of the Great Whore. Prostitution is one of those things that has become detached from its sacred roots and is now strictly a commercial undertaking with not a speck of sacredness about it anymore, except for this hovering image of the sacred Masculine Force lurking about. When I was a stripper, I was constantly aware of a sacred element to what I was doing. It seemed important that it be acknowledged. As a young woman, sex always seemed the same way. I admit that I certainly took full advantage of the sexual license that reigned at the time (Late70s-early eighties; AIDS and disease was not an issue then the way it is today!) but eventually I came to the conclusion that I deserved better and I started to become much more picky. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ > > Additionally the two factors that seemed to most > point to a future of this kind were > childhood abuse and drug use. Not pop culture. Not > at all. That may have changed a little > with the ubiquitousness of hip hop and it's > glorification of "stripper chic"....which we > haven't even touched here...but Britney and Madonna > have not been players in this at all. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Jeez, what do you mean they haven't been players at all? Who do you think helped to get that dynamic off the ground in the first place? It changed form eventually, but Madonna certainly played a tremendous role in implanting the seeds of a debased sexual ethic in our subconsciousnesses, and made a killing at the same time! Just because people don't talk about it, doesn't mean the damage hasn't been done! Britney and her predecessors, the Spice Girls just kept the ball rolling that Madonna started in the first place. ################################################### > > My feeling is that our culture is so sex negative > that sex work for money cannot be > anything other than deeply stigmatized and therefore > cannot be other than very self > destructive, and hence I see that drug use and sex > work are a circle. Again, no pop music > involved. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ True. We like to think of ourselves as sexually liberated, but you are not liberated from sex until you can say NO, just as easily as YES. And sex is not used just by sex workers. It is used covertly by Big Business to sell products too, even products that have nothing to do with sex. Until people stop thinking with their wallets and "just say NO" to the exploitation of the sacred feminine, things will continue on and on and on... $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ > > Which makes me again reflect on the contradictions > that I saw in India. I was in a society > that appeared extremely conservative and modest, yet > the statues and images of the > divine where very sexual. And I'm given to > understand that sex workers are deeply > stigmatized, and that reluctance to deal with sexual > matters openly is causing difficulty in > slowing down the spread of AIDS. I just don't know > how to balance out and understand it. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ I have already mentioned the horrifying situation of AIDS in India (as bad or worse than Africa). This state of affairs is deplorable in a country that numbers among its people the God-Realized. For shame!!! I cannot read anything anymore about Ammaji or any others like her, knowing this sort of thing is going on. These women should be out there (after they finish their work with the tsunami victims, of course!) spreading the word that India needs to face this scourge honestly, and stop turning its face away from it! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$4 > > About Madonna and sex, I feel that she chose sex as > a theme because it is very powerful > and provocative and that her work was about exposing > the different relationships and > dynamics in sex...including virginity, sex work, > promiscuity,pornography, homosexuality > and overall ownership. She was constantly looking at > sex from the p.o.v. that ultimately > she owned her own sexuality regardless of the role > that she played and this is what I found > very powerful. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Well, as I see it, it was more about exploiting a good hook to make big bucks, rather than any desire to "expose sexual dynamics for the purpose of personal empowerment". What you found powerful was your very own projection of your own sexual quest onto a public figure who was acting it out for you, but not for self-knowledge, but instead for money. Once the commercial dynamic enters into this sort of thing, however, there is then no more question of a "spiritual quest"; it is all knocked down to the lowest common denominator. For instance: when the Crusaders were fighting for God, they were exempted from their karma, but the moment one of them succumbed to greed, and took that piece of jewelry or that money pouch from his victims'corpses, and put it in his pocket, it was no longer a "Holy" war from then on, but a war for personal gain! Lilith M. ################################################# > > Namaste, > > prainbow > > , > SophiasHeaven@a... wrote: > > Less than five years ago, I knew a woman who > worked as a lap dancer in a > > strip club. > > Less than five years ago, or approximately > that long ago, I knew a > > hooker once (not the same woman as the lap > dancer). > > IN my impression of madonnna and her music, > i do NOT see a cult > > following of her among the younger generation in > fact the younger generation seem to > > care LESS about madonna and it seems to me she > draws the older women at least > > college aged, who have a value toward freedom > about their sexuality, but > > absolutely NO tendency nor desire to be either > strippers or hookers... > > I seriously Doubt a trip to the local > present-time strip bar, would > > reveal a hoard of madonna followers. I seriously > Doubt she intends to send out > > the image of free, wholesale sex. Rather, she > seems to be political in an > > artsy kind of basic way, about sex and power > dynamics in a way that says women > > should reClaim their freedom and their power and > NOT give it away wholesale to > > Men ... > > > > maybe i have misunderstood something, > > peace, > > cathie > > In a message dated 1/16/2005 5:56:13 PM Mountain > Standard Time, > > sephirah5 writes: > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 , Lili Masamura <sephirah5> wrote: > Well, as I see it, it was more about exploiting a > good hook to make big bucks, rather than any desire to > "expose sexual dynamics for the purpose of personal > empowerment". What you found powerful was your very > own projection of your own sexual quest onto a public > figure who was acting it out for you, but not for > self-knowledge, but instead for money. Once the > commercial dynamic enters into this sort of thing, > however, there is then no more question of a > "spiritual quest"; it is all knocked down to the > lowest common denominator. For instance: when the > Crusaders were fighting for God, they were exempted > from their karma, but the moment one of them succumbed > to greed, and took that piece of jewelry or that money > pouch from his victims'corpses, and put it in his > pocket, it was no longer a "Holy" war from then on, > but a war for personal gain! > Lilith M. > ################################################# Were they still exempt from karma when they succumbed cannibalism? "During the first crusade, a small group of knights who may have started out with sincere piety came to believe that they were the instruments of God's wrath here on earth. In 1096 after taking the town of Marat, Radulph of Caen says that they engaged in cannibalism and ate those who were killed in battle, both men, women and children. They then decided to go directly on to Jerusalem with the rest of the army or not. In the town of Antioch they killed people regardless of Christian, Muslim, or Jew with no bias to age, sex or religion. With the firm belief that they were under the direct leadership of God almighty, no atrocity was too terrible for these fanatics to commit. After every engagement they would return to camp with the heads of the Muslim dead on top of poles, and sometimes making the captured carry the heads of their fellow soldiers." http://www.umich.edu/~marcons/Crusades/topics/chivalry/chivalry-article.html Weren't they responsible for the havoc they wreaked in the self-righteous persuit of religious dominance? It was okay for them to murder in the name of God, but pilfering a few coins is okay with you? Madonna is saintly in comparison, no pun intended. namaste, pr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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