' Authentic Maithuna' vs. Ordinary Sexual Intercourse

January 19, 2005

In a message dated 1/19/2005 4:30:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,

devi_bhakta writes:

Similarly, though some Tantric pujas may involve offering alcohol

(brandy, etc) to Devi, and the sadhak partaking a small amount him or

herself -- that doesn't mean that Tantrics are drunken sots who get a

kick out of abusing all kinds of mind-altering substances.

Hahah

This reminds me of my experiences hanging out with the Tantriks in Tarapith.

I watched the temple pujaris do a huge Yantra puja with at least a dozen

bottles of open booze, both moonshine (Bangla) and whiskey (english) afterwards

everyone taking small amounts themselves and not trying to get wrecked...

Now in the cremation grounds with all these crazy pagala Tantrik fakers (not

to be confused with fakirs) you see these guys dressed like holy men and

getting money from people then immediately buying large bottles of local

moonshine

and getting as drunk as possible.

One man was my best friend until he asked for money and I refused him, he

then got enraged and claimed I cheated him because he gave me the privelage of

his darshan!

January 19, 2005

I've already received an off-board query asking what I meant

by "authentic maithuna" in my last post, replying to Nora and Lili.

So here's what I posted on the topic a few months ago, in case

anyone else here might find it useful:

==========

I wrote: "The *real* Tantric sexual practices [i.e. maithuna] reach

the sadhak only when 'fun and recreation' are no longer relevant

concepts."

Cathie responded: "sounds like my marriage -- ;-)"

I replied: *LOL!!!!!* You are funny, Cathie! :-))

I guess my statement does require a brief expansion, though. I think

there is a big misunderstanding here about the use of 5-M's in

ritual, versus one's habits and engagements in everyday life.

The thing is, the 5M's tend to be used in rare, specific, and highly

controlled ritual contexts. Maithuna in such situations is not "fun"

or "sexy", etc. It is pooja to Devi. If one thinks of it as anything

else, one really isn't qualified to be doing it.

Now, that doesn't mean that qualified initiates into the Tantric

traditions are passionless, po-faced bores in bed. On the contrary,

as purveyors of the slews of so-called "Tantric Sex" books and videos

have discovered, a "Tantric" worldview does tend to bring a new and

improved perspective to ordinary sexual relations; one that increases

pleasure and gratification for all involved.

But merely bringing that so-called "Tantric" perspective into the

bedroom doesn't mean that you're suddenly engaged in ritual maithuna.

That's a completely different thing.

Similarly, though some Tantric pujas may involve offering alcohol

(brandy, etc) to Devi, and the sadhak partaking a small amount him or

herself -- that doesn't mean that Tantrics are drunken sots who get a

kick out of abusing all kinds of mind-altering substances.

I would argue, on the contrary, that the true Tantric adept is one of

the more self-controlled and disciplined living beings on this earth.

Again, that doesn't mean s/he can't have fun -- but it does mean that

s/he isn't very likely to confuse ordinary sex with Tantric ritual

maithuna and ordinary booze with Tantric ritual madya.

Aum MAtangyai NamaH

January 19, 2005

You have put it perfectly. There is serious business and fake business. In

erious business none gets drunk. Infact I am of opinion in serious business it

is ratrher very difficult to get drunk.

It is also m test that if one gets drunk what has taken place is NOT pooja.

swastik108 wrote:

In a message dated 1/19/2005 4:30:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,

devi_bhakta writes:

Similarly, though some Tantric pujas may involve offering alcohol

(brandy, etc) to Devi, and the sadhak partaking a small amount him or

herself -- that doesn't mean that Tantrics are drunken sots who get a

kick out of abusing all kinds of mind-altering substances.

Hahah

This reminds me of my experiences hanging out with the Tantriks in Tarapith.

I watched the temple pujaris do a huge Yantra puja with at least a dozen

bottles of open booze, both moonshine (Bangla) and whiskey (english) afterwards

everyone taking small amounts themselves and not trying to get wrecked...

Now in the cremation grounds with all these crazy pagala Tantrik fakers (not

to be confused with fakirs) you see these guys dressed like holy men and

getting money from people then immediately buying large bottles of local

moonshine

and getting as drunk as possible.

One man was my best friend until he asked for money and I refused him, he

then got enraged and claimed I cheated him because he gave me the privelage of

his darshan!

/

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January 20, 2005

And what about the three curses that reside in

alcohol? I believe I have mentioned this before.

Unless one performs a Soma Yajna over the liquor

before it is drunk, you are taking into your body a

cursed substance! One has only to look at all the

human suffering associated directly or indirectly with

alcohol drinking to have proof of this. There is a

ritual for purifying liquor, given in the book "Kali

Puja".

Lilith M.

--- sankara menon <kochu1tz wrote:

> You have put it perfectly. There is serious business

> and fake business. In erious business none gets

> drunk. Infact I am of opinion in serious business it

> is ratrher very difficult to get drunk.

>

> It is also m test that if one gets drunk what has

> taken place is NOT pooja.

>

> swastik108 wrote:

> In a message dated 1/19/2005 4:30:38 PM Eastern

> Standard Time,

> devi_bhakta writes:

> Similarly, though some Tantric pujas may involve

> offering alcohol

> (brandy, etc) to Devi, and the sadhak partaking a

> small amount him or

> herself -- that doesn't mean that Tantrics are

> drunken sots who get a

> kick out of abusing all kinds of mind-altering

> substances.

> Hahah

>

> This reminds me of my experiences hanging out with

> the Tantriks in Tarapith.

> I watched the temple pujaris do a huge Yantra puja

> with at least a dozen

> bottles of open booze, both moonshine (Bangla) and

> whiskey (english) afterwards

> everyone taking small amounts themselves and not

> trying to get wrecked...

>

> Now in the cremation grounds with all these crazy

> pagala Tantrik fakers (not

> to be confused with fakirs) you see these guys

> dressed like holy men and

> getting money from people then immediately buying

> large bottles of local moonshine

> and getting as drunk as possible.

>

> One man was my best friend until he asked for money

> and I refused him, he

> then got enraged and claimed I cheated him because

> he gave me the privelage of

> his darshan!

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

> Links

>

> /

>

> Your use of is subject to the

>

> Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced

> search. Learn more.

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.

http://info.mail./mail_250

January 20, 2005

Hello lili

I have heard that there is an ancient Masonic ritual of the partaking of

alcohol where as one learns to control the alcohol devas

I have also hear of a Tantric practice using the uncontrolled effects

that whisky has on the brain that over promote the imagination

The tantric in the middle of the night goes to the cemetery makes

himself comfortable on a grave begins his japa takes a swig very time

he has a thought of fear he takes another swig apparently the mind plays

all its games on the sadhaka. The pseudo ghost follows the tantric home

and the tantric perfects the practice when he overcomes the fear of

death

Personally I would not recommend such a sadhana to anyone although under

the right situation and I thought that I was ready I would do it.

I believe these are very advanced practices that yogis do once they have

already obtain very high stability within the mind and of the nervous

system. They have already successfully perfected other less demanding

sadhanas for them to face the obstacles and deepest fears in there mind

All the best

John Mathieson

January 21, 2005

the shudhi process is very much there is ritual drinking

Lili Masamura <sephirah5 wrote:

And what about the three curses that reside in

alcohol? I believe I have mentioned this before.

Unless one performs a Soma Yajna over the liquor

before it is drunk, you are taking into your body a

cursed substance! One has only to look at all the

human suffering associated directly or indirectly with

alcohol drinking to have proof of this. There is a

ritual for purifying liquor, given in the book "Kali

Puja".

Lilith M.

--- sankara menon <kochu1tz wrote:

> You have put it perfectly. There is serious business

> and fake business. In erious business none gets

> drunk. Infact I am of opinion in serious business it

> is ratrher very difficult to get drunk.

>

> It is also m test that if one gets drunk what has

> taken place is NOT pooja.

>

> swastik108 wrote:

> In a message dated 1/19/2005 4:30:38 PM Eastern

> Standard Time,

> devi_bhakta writes:

> Similarly, though some Tantric pujas may involve

> offering alcohol

> (brandy, etc) to Devi, and the sadhak partaking a

> small amount him or

> herself -- that doesn't mean that Tantrics are

> drunken sots who get a

> kick out of abusing all kinds of mind-altering

> substances.

> Hahah

>

> This reminds me of my experiences hanging out with

> the Tantriks in Tarapith.

> I watched the temple pujaris do a huge Yantra puja

> with at least a dozen

> bottles of open booze, both moonshine (Bangla) and

> whiskey (english) afterwards

> everyone taking small amounts themselves and not

> trying to get wrecked...

>

> Now in the cremation grounds with all these crazy

> pagala Tantrik fakers (not

> to be confused with fakirs) you see these guys

> dressed like holy men and

> getting money from people then immediately buying

> large bottles of local moonshine

> and getting as drunk as possible.

>

> One man was my best friend until he asked for money

> and I refused him, he

> then got enraged and claimed I cheated him because

> he gave me the privelage of

> his darshan!

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

> Links

>

> /

>

> Your use of is subject to the

>

> Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced

> search. Learn more.

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.

http://info.mail./mail_250

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January 22, 2005

"There is a ritual for purifying liquor"

The only way that liquor can be purified is by dealcoholizing it.

All this rubbish about including alcohol in pujas, is merely an

attempt by the weak to justify their dependence on alcohol and to

cover up their inability attain a transcendent consciousness

through their own efforts.

I've been away for a few weeks but I see that all the usual

suspects are busy promoting their licentious ways under the

guise of religious/scriptural blessings. Of course those

'blessings' were originally just attempts by the weak to justify

their own weakness. Now those early attempts at justification

are now eleveated to Holy Writ by the current crop of

ethical/moral weaklings in attempt to justify todays' weaknesses

and lapses.

The more things change, the more they remain the same.

OM Namah Sivah

Omprem

, Lili Masamura

<sephirah5> wrote:

> And what about the three curses that reside in

> alcohol? I believe I have mentioned this before.

> Unless one performs a Soma Yajna over the liquor

> before it is drunk, you are taking into your body a

> cursed substance! One has only to look at all the

> human suffering associated directly or indirectly with

> alcohol drinking to have proof of this. There is a

> ritual for purifying liquor, given in the book "Kali

> Puja".

> Lilith M.

> --- sankara menon <kochu1tz> wrote:

>

> > You have put it perfectly. There is serious business

> > and fake business. In erious business none gets

> > drunk. Infact I am of opinion in serious business it

> > is ratrher very difficult to get drunk.

> >

> > It is also m test that if one gets drunk what has

> > taken place is NOT pooja.

> >

> > swastik108@a... wrote:

> > In a message dated 1/19/2005 4:30:38 PM Eastern

> > Standard Time,

> > devi_bhakta writes:

> > Similarly, though some Tantric pujas may involve

> > offering alcohol

> > (brandy, etc) to Devi, and the sadhak partaking a

> > small amount him or

> > herself -- that doesn't mean that Tantrics are

> > drunken sots who get a

> > kick out of abusing all kinds of mind-altering

> > substances.

> > Hahah

> >

> > This reminds me of my experiences hanging out with

> > the Tantriks in Tarapith.

> > I watched the temple pujaris do a huge Yantra puja

> > with at least a dozen

> > bottles of open booze, both moonshine (Bangla) and

> > whiskey (english) afterwards

> > everyone taking small amounts themselves and not

> > trying to get wrecked...

> >

> > Now in the cremation grounds with all these crazy

> > pagala Tantrik fakers (not

> > to be confused with fakirs) you see these guys

> > dressed like holy men and

> > getting money from people then immediately buying

> > large bottles of local moonshine

> > and getting as drunk as possible.

> >

> > One man was my best friend until he asked for money

> > and I refused him, he

> > then got enraged and claimed I cheated him because

> > he gave me the privelage of

> > his darshan!

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> >

> > Links

> >

> > /

> >

> > Your use of is subject to the

> >

> > Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced

> > search. Learn more.

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> >

>

> Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.

> http://info.mail./mail_250

January 22, 2005

First of all things in india, the various systems are related.

All the dieties whatever number, 3.3 million they have a hierarchy and

a place and a certain sect of people worship them.

Secondly soma yajna is not using liquor. The Soma refers to a plant

seen in certain places. I attended one Soma Yajna which was held in

trichur, one specifically done for childless couples. The Prasad was

supposed to be eaten by the female who is desiring the child.

This is the reason why in very ancient india Varna ashrama dharma was

strictly followed. So people dont confuse one with another, now any

way there's no such thing, so it is natural that people mix and match

everything. I have said this before, in agamic tantric worship Shiva

and Shakti are equally worshipped, but there are certain things which

are done in a worship of Shiva and certain other things in worship of

shakti. They are complementary, and no where in india i have found

this competition of whether SHiva is primordial or shakti is

primordial. They are namas used for specific meaning and dieties.

January 22, 2005

Hey, I didn't make the ritual up; it was published

under the authority of Shri Maa, who is in fact a

God-realized person, unlike yourself. I thought the

long silence was too good to be true...the reason the

Samaya Path is the "pure" one is because the people on

it are not in control of their animalistic tendencies

and have to follow a path that does not encourage

them. The Left-Hand Path is referred to as "heroic"

because to succeed with it you must be already in

control of your own lower nature. Is that too complex

a concept for you? It was certainly good enough for

Ramakrishna Paramahansa. Oh yes, that's right, you got

no use for Ramakrishna whatever.

Lilith M.

--- omprem <omprem wrote:

>

> "There is a ritual for purifying liquor"

>

> The only way that liquor can be purified is by

> dealcoholizing it.

>

> All this rubbish about including alcohol in pujas,

> is merely an

> attempt by the weak to justify their dependence on

> alcohol and to

> cover up their inability attain a transcendent

> consciousness

> through their own efforts.

>

> I've been away for a few weeks but I see that all

> the usual

> suspects are busy promoting their licentious ways

> under the

> guise of religious/scriptural blessings. Of course

> those

> 'blessings' were originally just attempts by the

> weak to justify

> their own weakness. Now those early attempts at

> justification

> are now eleveated to Holy Writ by the current crop

> of

> ethical/moral weaklings in attempt to justify

> todays' weaknesses

> and lapses.

>

> The more things change, the more they remain the

> same.

>

> OM Namah Sivah

>

> Omprem

>

> , Lili Masamura

>

> <sephirah5> wrote:

> > And what about the three curses that reside in

> > alcohol? I believe I have mentioned this before.

> > Unless one performs a Soma Yajna over the liquor

> > before it is drunk, you are taking into your body

> a

> > cursed substance! One has only to look at all the

> > human suffering associated directly or indirectly

> with

> > alcohol drinking to have proof of this. There is a

> > ritual for purifying liquor, given in the book

> "Kali

> > Puja".

> > Lilith M.

> > --- sankara menon <kochu1tz> wrote:

> >

> > > You have put it perfectly. There is serious

> business

> > > and fake business. In erious business none gets

> > > drunk. Infact I am of opinion in serious

> business it

> > > is ratrher very difficult to get drunk.

> > >

> > > It is also m test that if one gets drunk what

> has

> > > taken place is NOT pooja.

> > >

> > > swastik108@a... wrote:

> > > In a message dated 1/19/2005 4:30:38 PM Eastern

> > > Standard Time,

> > > devi_bhakta writes:

> > > Similarly, though some Tantric pujas may involve

> > > offering alcohol

> > > (brandy, etc) to Devi, and the sadhak partaking

> a

> > > small amount him or

> > > herself -- that doesn't mean that Tantrics are

> > > drunken sots who get a

> > > kick out of abusing all kinds of mind-altering

> > > substances.

> > > Hahah

> > >

> > > This reminds me of my experiences hanging out

> with

> > > the Tantriks in Tarapith.

> > > I watched the temple pujaris do a huge Yantra

> puja

> > > with at least a dozen

> > > bottles of open booze, both moonshine (Bangla)

> and

> > > whiskey (english) afterwards

> > > everyone taking small amounts themselves and not

> > > trying to get wrecked...

> > >

> > > Now in the cremation grounds with all these

> crazy

> > > pagala Tantrik fakers (not

> > > to be confused with fakirs) you see these guys

> > > dressed like holy men and

> > > getting money from people then immediately

> buying

> > > large bottles of local moonshine

> > > and getting as drunk as possible.

> > >

> > > One man was my best friend until he asked for

> money

> > > and I refused him, he

> > > then got enraged and claimed I cheated him

> because

> > > he gave me the privelage of

> > > his darshan!

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > > removed]

> > >

> > > Links

> > >

> > > /

> > >

> > > To from this group, send an email

> to:

> > >

> > > Your use of is subject to the

> > >

> > > Mail - Find what you need with new

> enhanced

> > > search. Learn more.

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > > removed]

> > >

> >

> > Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced

> search.

> > http://info.mail./mail_250

>

January 23, 2005

Namaste,

Welcome back, omprem. Good to see you again.

Blessings,

prainbow

, "omprem" <omprem> wrote:

>

> "There is a ritual for purifying liquor"

>

> The only way that liquor can be purified is by dealcoholizing it.

>

> All this rubbish about including alcohol in pujas, is merely an

> attempt by the weak to justify their dependence on alcohol and to

> cover up their inability attain a transcendent consciousness

> through their own efforts.

>

> I've been away for a few weeks but I see that all the usual

> suspects are busy promoting their licentious ways under the

> guise of religious/scriptural blessings. Of course those

> 'blessings' were originally just attempts by the weak to justify

> their own weakness. Now those early attempts at justification

> are now eleveated to Holy Writ by the current crop of

> ethical/moral weaklings in attempt to justify todays' weaknesses

> and lapses.

>

> The more things change, the more they remain the same.

>

> OM Namah Sivah

>

> Omprem

>

> , Lili Masamura

> <sephirah5> wrote:

> > And what about the three curses that reside in

> > alcohol? I believe I have mentioned this before.

> > Unless one performs a Soma Yajna over the liquor

> > before it is drunk, you are taking into your body a

> > cursed substance! One has only to look at all the

> > human suffering associated directly or indirectly with

> > alcohol drinking to have proof of this. There is a

> > ritual for purifying liquor, given in the book "Kali

> > Puja".

> > Lilith M.

> > --- sankara menon <kochu1tz> wrote:

> >

> > > You have put it perfectly. There is serious business

> > > and fake business. In erious business none gets

> > > drunk. Infact I am of opinion in serious business it

> > > is ratrher very difficult to get drunk.

> > >

> > > It is also m test that if one gets drunk what has

> > > taken place is NOT pooja.

> > >

> > > swastik108@a... wrote:

> > > In a message dated 1/19/2005 4:30:38 PM Eastern

> > > Standard Time,

> > > devi_bhakta writes:

> > > Similarly, though some Tantric pujas may involve

> > > offering alcohol

> > > (brandy, etc) to Devi, and the sadhak partaking a

> > > small amount him or

> > > herself -- that doesn't mean that Tantrics are

> > > drunken sots who get a

> > > kick out of abusing all kinds of mind-altering

> > > substances.

> > > Hahah

> > >

> > > This reminds me of my experiences hanging out with

> > > the Tantriks in Tarapith.

> > > I watched the temple pujaris do a huge Yantra puja

> > > with at least a dozen

> > > bottles of open booze, both moonshine (Bangla) and

> > > whiskey (english) afterwards

> > > everyone taking small amounts themselves and not

> > > trying to get wrecked...

> > >

> > > Now in the cremation grounds with all these crazy

> > > pagala Tantrik fakers (not

> > > to be confused with fakirs) you see these guys

> > > dressed like holy men and

> > > getting money from people then immediately buying

> > > large bottles of local moonshine

> > > and getting as drunk as possible.

> > >

> > > One man was my best friend until he asked for money

> > > and I refused him, he

> > > then got enraged and claimed I cheated him because

> > > he gave me the privelage of

> > > his darshan!

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > > removed]

> > >

> > > Links

> > >

> > > /

> > >

> > > Your use of is subject to the

> > >

> > > Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced

> > > search. Learn more.

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > > removed]

> > >

> >

> > Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.

> > http://info.mail./mail_250

January 23, 2005

omprem wrote: "There is a ritual for purifying liquor" The only way

that liquor can be purified is by deal coholizing it. All this

rubbish about including alcohol in pujas, is merely an attempt by

the weak to justify their dependence on alcohol and to cover up

their inability attain a transcendent consciousness through their

own efforts.

oooooooooo Ompremji is back again. As Im reading omprem messages I

am reminded of a conversation : He is just another ex-alcoholic who

is undergoing withdrawal syndrome. Now he began to condemn others

and call them awful names.

Ah! I remember going through the archives to add something for the

frequent asked question page, and I came across this, written by

omprem himself in his list of 5 actions in sadhana :

"2. (b) You are what you think. Think positively all the time. If

you have negative thoughts/emotions regarding some person or event

then you have not understood the sitiuation properly.."

So I like to rephrase this sentence again : You have such negative

thoughts/emotions regarding some ritual/sadhana then you have not

understood the whole thing all about. The point is why do we even

bother to try to make somebody like yourself to understand our

ritual. For no matter you will never. Your mind have been block. It

like hitting against a wall.

And hey this what you wrote in the beginning :

"Sadhana is practical mysticism. It consists of performing those

actions that decondition your mind, that increase the vibration of

the mind, and that remove obstacles to the movement of prana,

especially kundalini"

It is odd that sadhana is suppose to decondition our mind, that

increase the vibration of the mind. I expect somebody like yourself

to be more open and tolerant, instead of criticising certain

practices that you have no knowledge of.

Perhaps you should lead the thread and discuss about the B. Gita. It

will do all of us good, and perhaps you too. The B.Gita can be very

reflective.

January 23, 2005

I am sorry I have to intervene.

OMPREM said “All this rubbish about including alcohol in pUjAs, is merely an

attempt by the weak to justify their dependence on alcohol and to cover up their

inability attain a transcendent consciousness through their own efforts.”

This shows the utter lack of knowledge and traditions that even Vishnuevananda,

his own Guru, would have frowned upon. As lilith said in all probability all

this talk of paths other than that which uses 5 Ms is for people who cannot

understand or excape the pitfalls of VIra sadhana.

Gurus have a tendency to safeguard their disciples from danger by saying

“ahhhhhhhhhhthat it’s all not correct” especially to weak disciples. The

mistaken Disciples take it as a solemn statement that, “other paths are wrong”.

That is disciples who are not reasonably grounded; those who are reasonably well

grounded (It does not take a HIGHLY ADVANCED disciple, but someone who is

reasonably intelligent) to understand that the path is not “wrong” per se but

the path is wrong “for him/her”.

Having had reasonable associations both with Shivananda Saraswati and his

deciple Vishnu devananda going back about 4+ decades I never heard then condemn

the paths per se; but have heard them say; “Han!! Han!! Who to hai; magar hame

who nahi chaahiye” –{yes yes it is there but we do not need it} mind you this is

a common restraint one hears from spiritual leaders when deciples ask about many

sadhana forms in the texts. When some ask the very same persons say “Han who to

hai, bahaut mushkil hai” without any further comments. {yes it is there; but a

difficult path}.

My own Guru, a woman and a Brahmin to boot (and a widow too) would never invite

a non initiate to her pooja. But during pooja she will have a Kumkum Tilak and

there will be one drop – mind you DROP – of alcohol in her VisheshArghyA. That

she used to keep in small bottles and adding of which only those in the know

noted.

After the pooja, the will wipe off the kumkum tilak before she emerges because

she has to conform to the mores of widows not wearing kumkum.

And to her shishyas she used to say a pooja is no pooja unless just a drop of

alcohol is added to the VisheshArghyA. A DROP is not something to get drunk on

or indulge in anything. The other makaras were replaced by specific pratheekas.

Alcohol alone was never replaced by pratheekas – Omprem may not be aware about

the temple poojas in Kerala. In the great Ettumanoor temple where Shiva is

worshipped as Aghora along with other dhyanas at particular times) I have had

the privilege of observing the Kalasha abhishekas really at close hand when my

aunt’s father-in-law presided over them. Even his close associates were not

aware of the small ampoule of alcohol inside his dress while the various

Kalashas were being prepared and suddenly when the preparation of “Asava

Kalasha” (Kalasha of wine) is going on he will suddenly distract everybody and

the small1 milliliter of alcohol will be dropped in. None the wiser!! Mind you

he was one of the most respected Brahmins of his time.

He told me, when my time is over and after the time of my immediate successor my

family will suffer because they are not capable of receiving the real esoteric

secrets. He said it most sadly. Indeed now the family suffers from various

things. I would rather not elaborate.

One of is successors (who is a very good man) told me Lalitasahasranama is

pornographic because it describes HER intimately – I was so angry I asked him to

come and see me privately- of course he did not!! And told his relation – the

great man’s son “I dare not!! I know what he will do to me”

I am not saying all this to emphasize my importance. But as incidents of

mistaken ideas from not listening carefully to the Guru.

The Kaula Marga is, as Lili says, is not for the weak; it is for the VIRA and

that path is not chosen by the practitioner but the path chooses the person.

Each sadhaka has his own private path. Let one who has not treaded it or

understood it criticize others. There are some here who knew nothing about it

was initiated by great Gurus and have understood the paths in no time and

attained even siddhis (not me OK? I am still a novice). All of them as far as I

know are neither drunkards nor debauchers.

This omnibus generalization on the basis of a path taught to one individual by

his Guru (without knowing what else he taught some others) is incorrect.

I am sorry about the verbal diarrhea. Please forgive me as I have no intention

of offending anyone but to clarify things in my own light.

Lili Masamura <sephirah5 wrote:

Hey, I didn't make the ritual up; it was published under the authority of Shri

Maa, who is in fact a God-realized person, unlike yourself. I thought the long

silence was too good to be true...the reason the Samaya Path is the "pure" one

is because the people on it are not in control of their animalistic tendencies

and have to follow a path that does not encourage them. The Left-Hand Path is

referred to as "heroic" because to succeed with it you must be already in

control of your own lower nature. Is that too complex a concept for you? It was

certainly good enough for Ramakrishna Paramahansa. Oh yes, that's right, you got

no use for Ramakrishna whatever.

Lilith M.

--- omprem <omprem wrote:

"There is a ritual for purifying liquor"

The only way that liquor can be purified is by dealcoholizing it.

All this rubbish about including alcohol in pUjAs, is merely an attempt by the

weak to justify their dependence on alcohol and to cover up their inability

attain a transcendent consciousness through their own efforts.

I've been away for a few weeks but I see that all the usual suspects are busy

promoting their licentious ways under the guise of religious/scriptural

blessings. Of course those 'blessings' were originally just attempts by the weak

to justify their own weakness. Now those early attempts at justification are now

elevated to Holy Writ by the current crop of ethical/moral weaklings in attempt

to justify today’s weaknesses and lapses.

The more things change, the more they remain the same.

OM Namah Sivah

Omprem

, Lili Masamura

<sephirah5 wrote:

And what about the three curses that reside in alcohol? I believe I have

mentioned this before. Unless one performs a Soma Yajna over the liquor before

it is drunk, you are taking into your body a cursed substance! One has only to

look at all the human suffering associated directly or indirectly with alcohol

drinking to have proof of this. There is a ritual for purifying liquor, given in

the book "Kali Puja".

Lilith M.

--- sankara menon <kochu1tz wrote:

You have put it perfectly. There is serious business and fake business. In

serious business none gets drunk. Infact I am of opinion in serious

business it is rather very difficult to get drunk.

It is also m test that if one gets drunk what has taken place is NOT pooja.

swastik108@a... wrote:

In a message dated 1/19/2005 4:30:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, devi_bhakta

writes:

Similarly, though some Tantric pujas may involve offering alcohol

(brandy, etc) to Devi, and the sadhak partaking a small amount him or herself --

that doesn't mean that Tantrics are drunken sots who get a kick out of abusing

all kinds of mind-altering substances.

Hahah

This reminds me of my experiences hanging out with the Tantriks in Tarapith. I

watched the temple pujaris do a huge Yantra puja with at least a dozen bottles

of open booze, both moonshine (Bangla) and

whiskey (english) afterwards everyone taking small amounts themselves and not

trying to get wrecked...

Now in the cremation grounds with all these crazy pagala Tantrik fakers (not to

be confused with fakirs) you see these guys dressed like holy men and getting

money from people then immediately buying

large bottles of local moonshine and getting as drunk as possible.

One man was my best friend until he asked for money and I refused him, he then

got enraged and claimed I cheated him because he gave me the privilege of his

darshan!

Read only the mail you want - Mail SpamGuard.

January 23, 2005

" you must be already in control of your own lower nature"

If one is in control of their lower nature why would they be

drinking alcohol, using drugs, engaging in casual sex, playing

with faeces or participating in any of the other weird and

not-so-wonderful practices promoted by you and others on this

board? All of these practices are evidence that the lower nature

is in the ascendency and most decidedly is not under control.

Om Namah Sivaya

Omprem

, Lili Masamura

<sephirah5> wrote:

> Hey, I didn't make the ritual up; it was published

> under the authority of Shri Maa, who is in fact a

> God-realized person, unlike yourself. I thought the

> long silence was too good to be true...the reason the

> Samaya Path is the "pure" one is because the people on

> it are not in control of their animalistic tendencies

> and have to follow a path that does not encourage

> them. The Left-Hand Path is referred to as "heroic"

> because to succeed with it you must be already in

> control of your own lower nature. Is that too complex

> a concept for you? It was certainly good enough for

> Ramakrishna Paramahansa. Oh yes, that's right, you got

> no use for Ramakrishna whatever.

> Lilith M.

> --- omprem <omprem> wrote:

>

> >

> > "There is a ritual for purifying liquor"

> >

> > The only way that liquor can be purified is by

> > dealcoholizing it.

> >

> > All this rubbish about including alcohol in pujas,

> > is merely an

> > attempt by the weak to justify their dependence on

> > alcohol and to

> > cover up their inability attain a transcendent

> > consciousness

> > through their own efforts.

> >

> > I've been away for a few weeks but I see that all

> > the usual

> > suspects are busy promoting their licentious ways

> > under the

> > guise of religious/scriptural blessings. Of course

> > those

> > 'blessings' were originally just attempts by the

> > weak to justify

> > their own weakness. Now those early attempts at

> > justification

> > are now eleveated to Holy Writ by the current crop

> > of

> > ethical/moral weaklings in attempt to justify

> > todays' weaknesses

> > and lapses.

> >

> > The more things change, the more they remain the

> > same.

> >

> > OM Namah Sivah

> >

> > Omprem

> >

> > , Lili Masamura

> >

> > <sephirah5> wrote:

> > > And what about the three curses that reside in

> > > alcohol? I believe I have mentioned this before.

> > > Unless one performs a Soma Yajna over the liquor

> > > before it is drunk, you are taking into your body

> > a

> > > cursed substance! One has only to look at all the

> > > human suffering associated directly or indirectly

> > with

> > > alcohol drinking to have proof of this. There is a

> > > ritual for purifying liquor, given in the book

> > "Kali

> > > Puja".

> > > Lilith M.

> > > --- sankara menon <kochu1tz> wrote:

> > >

> > > > You have put it perfectly. There is serious

> > business

> > > > and fake business. In erious business none gets

> > > > drunk. Infact I am of opinion in serious

> > business it

> > > > is ratrher very difficult to get drunk.

> > > >

> > > > It is also m test that if one gets drunk what

> > has

> > > > taken place is NOT pooja.

> > > >

> > > > swastik108@a... wrote:

> > > > In a message dated 1/19/2005 4:30:38 PM Eastern

> > > > Standard Time,

> > > > devi_bhakta writes:

> > > > Similarly, though some Tantric pujas may involve

> > > > offering alcohol

> > > > (brandy, etc) to Devi, and the sadhak partaking

> > a

> > > > small amount him or

> > > > herself -- that doesn't mean that Tantrics are

> > > > drunken sots who get a

> > > > kick out of abusing all kinds of mind-altering

> > > > substances.

> > > > Hahah

> > > >

> > > > This reminds me of my experiences hanging out

> > with

> > > > the Tantriks in Tarapith.

> > > > I watched the temple pujaris do a huge Yantra

> > puja

> > > > with at least a dozen

> > > > bottles of open booze, both moonshine (Bangla)

> > and

> > > > whiskey (english) afterwards

> > > > everyone taking small amounts themselves and not

> > > > trying to get wrecked...

> > > >

> > > > Now in the cremation grounds with all these

> > crazy

> > > > pagala Tantrik fakers (not

> > > > to be confused with fakirs) you see these guys

> > > > dressed like holy men and

> > > > getting money from people then immediately

> > buying

> > > > large bottles of local moonshine

> > > > and getting as drunk as possible.

> > > >

> > > > One man was my best friend until he asked for

> > money

> > > > and I refused him, he

> > > > then got enraged and claimed I cheated him

> > because

> > > > he gave me the privelage of

> > > > his darshan!

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > > > removed]

> > > >

> > > > Links

> > > >

> > > > /

> > > >

> > > > To from this group, send an email

> > to:

> > > >

> > > > Your use of is subject to the

> > > >

> > > > Mail - Find what you need with new

> > enhanced

> > > > search. Learn more.

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > > > removed]

> > > >

> > >

> > > Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced

> > search.

> > > http://info.mail./mail_250

> >

>

> Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam protection

around

>

January 23, 2005

"It is odd that sadhana is suppose to decondition our mind, that

increase the vibration of the mind."

Why do you find it odd that sadhana deconditions the mind and

in doing so enables the mind to achieve a higher, more sattvic

vibration, which vibration is necessary for spiritual discernment

and advancement?

Sadhanna is rigorous self-discipline to eliminate those

tendencies and practices that dull the consciousness. Sadhana

is not an exercise, as so many on this board seem to believe, in

justifying those practices and tendencies that dull the

consciousness but which are sooo enjoyable on a short-term

basis. This type of psuedo-sadhana is nothing but

self-delusion, self-justification, and self-hypnosis for the weak

and the uninformed.

OM Namah Sivaya

Omprem

, "NMadasamy"

<nmadasamy@s...> wrote:

>

> omprem wrote: "There is a ritual for purifying liquor" The only

way

> that liquor can be purified is by deal coholizing it. All this

> rubbish about including alcohol in pujas, is merely an attempt

by

> the weak to justify their dependence on alcohol and to cover up

> their inability attain a transcendent consciousness through

their

> own efforts.

>

> oooooooooo Ompremji is back again. As Im reading omprem

messages I

> am reminded of a conversation : He is just another

ex-alcoholic who

> is undergoing withdrawal syndrome. Now he began to

condemn others

> and call them awful names.

>

> Ah! I remember going through the archives to add something

for the

> frequent asked question page, and I came across this, written

by

> omprem himself in his list of 5 actions in sadhana :

>

> "2. (b) You are what you think. Think positively all the time. If

> you have negative thoughts/emotions regarding some person

or event

> then you have not understood the sitiuation properly.."

>

> So I like to rephrase this sentence again : You have such

negative

> thoughts/emotions regarding some ritual/sadhana then you

have not

> understood the whole thing all about. The point is why do we

even

> bother to try to make somebody like yourself to understand our

> ritual. For no matter you will never. Your mind have been block.

It

> like hitting against a wall.

>

> And hey this what you wrote in the beginning :

>

> "Sadhana is practical mysticism. It consists of performing

those

> actions that decondition your mind, that increase the vibration

of

> the mind, and that remove obstacles to the movement of

prana,

> especially kundalini"

>

> It is odd that sadhana is suppose to decondition our mind, that

> increase the vibration of the mind. I expect somebody like

yourself

> to be more open and tolerant, instead of criticising certain

> practices that you have no knowledge of.

>

> Perhaps you should lead the thread and discuss about the B.

Gita. It

> will do all of us good, and perhaps you too. The B.Gita can be

very

> reflective.

January 23, 2005

" Having had reasonable associations both with Shivananda

Saraswati and his deciple Vishnu devananda going back about

4+ decades"

Swami Sivananda entered Mahasamadhi in 1963, some 42

years ago, so it is not possible that you had any type of

relationship with him 'going back about 4+ decades".

Similary, Swami Vishhnudevananda left India in 1957 under the

directions of Swami Sivananda to set up ashrams and Yoga

centers in the west. While Swami Vishnu did return to India

occassionally, he spent most of his time in the West. I doubt that

you had any type of 'reasonable association' with him either. You

may have fancied that you had a superficial relationship with him

if you happened to meet him the odd time just as any of tens of

thousands of people could claim, but you did not have anything

near to a 'reasonable' or close relationship with him.

Please do not attempt to build yourself up by falsely asserting

association with these particular Gurus. You only diminish

yourself in the eyes of others.

OM Namah Sivaya

Omprem

, sankara menon

<kochu1tz> wrote:

>

> I am sorry I have to intervene.

>

> OMPREM said "All this rubbish about including alcohol in

pUjAs, is merely an attempt by the weak to justify their

dependence on alcohol and to cover up their inability attain a

transcendent consciousness through their own efforts."

>

> This shows the utter lack of knowledge and traditions that even

Vishnuevananda, his own Guru, would have frowned upon. As

lilith said in all probability all this talk of paths other than that

which uses 5 Ms is for people who cannot understand or excape

the pitfalls of VIra sadhana.

>

> Gurus have a tendency to safeguard their disciples from

danger by saying "ahhhhhhhhhhthat it's all not correct" especially

to weak disciples. The mistaken Disciples take it as a solemn

statement that, "other paths are wrong". That is disciples who are

not reasonably grounded; those who are reasonably well

grounded (It does not take a HIGHLY ADVANCED disciple, but

someone who is reasonably intelligent) to understand that the

path is not "wrong" per se but the path is wrong "for him/her".

>

> Having had reasonable associations both with Shivananda

Saraswati and his deciple Vishnu devananda going back about

4+ decades I never heard then condemn the paths per se; but

have heard them say; "Han!! Han!! Who to hai; magar hame who

nahi chaahiye" –{yes yes it is there but we do not need it} mind

you this is a common restraint one hears from spiritual leaders

when deciples ask about many sadhana forms in the texts.

When some ask the very same persons say "Han who to hai,

bahaut mushkil hai" without any further comments. {yes it is

there; but a difficult path}.

>

> My own Guru, a woman and a Brahmin to boot (and a widow

too) would never invite a non initiate to her pooja. But during

pooja she will have a Kumkum Tilak and there will be one drop –

mind you DROP – of alcohol in her VisheshArghyA. That she

used to keep in small bottles and adding of which only those in

the know noted.

>

> After the pooja, the will wipe off the kumkum tilak before she

emerges because she has to conform to the mores of widows

not wearing kumkum.

>

> And to her shishyas she used to say a pooja is no pooja

unless just a drop of alcohol is added to the VisheshArghyA. A

DROP is not something to get drunk on or indulge in anything.

The other makaras were replaced by specific pratheekas.

Alcohol alone was never replaced by pratheekas – Omprem may

not be aware about the temple poojas in Kerala. In the great

Ettumanoor temple where Shiva is worshipped as Aghora along

with other dhyanas at particular times) I have had the privilege of

observing the Kalasha abhishekas really at close hand when my

aunt's father-in-law presided over them. Even his close

associates were not aware of the small ampoule of alcohol

inside his dress while the various Kalashas were being

prepared and suddenly when the preparation of "Asava Kalasha"

(Kalasha of wine) is going on he will suddenly distract everybody

and the small1 milliliter of alcohol will be dropped in. None the

wiser!! Mind you he was one of the most respected Brahmins of

his time.

>

> He told me, when my time is over and after the time of my

immediate successor my family will suffer because they are not

capable of receiving the real esoteric secrets. He said it most

sadly. Indeed now the family suffers from various things. I would

rather not elaborate.

>

> One of is successors (who is a very good man) told me

Lalitasahasranama is pornographic because it describes HER

intimately – I was so angry I asked him to come and see me

privately- of course he did not!! And told his relation – the great

man's son "I dare not!! I know what he will do to me"

>

> I am not saying all this to emphasize my importance. But as

incidents of mistaken ideas from not listening carefully to the

Guru.

>

> The Kaula Marga is, as Lili says, is not for the weak; it is for the

VIRA and that path is not chosen by the practitioner but the path

chooses the person.

>

> Each sadhaka has his own private path. Let one who has not

treaded it or understood it criticize others. There are some here

who knew nothing about it was initiated by great Gurus and have

understood the paths in no time and attained even siddhis (not

me OK? I am still a novice). All of them as far as I know are

neither drunkards nor debauchers.

>

> This omnibus generalization on the basis of a path taught to

one individual by his Guru (without knowing what else he taught

some others) is incorrect.

>

> I am sorry about the verbal diarrhea. Please forgive me as I

have no intention of offending anyone but to clarify things in my

own light.

>

> Lili Masamura <sephirah5 wrote:

>

> Hey, I didn't make the ritual up; it was published under the

authority of Shri Maa, who is in fact a God-realized person, unlike

yourself. I thought the long silence was too good to be true...the

reason the Samaya Path is the "pure" one is because the people

on it are not in control of their animalistic tendencies and have to

follow a path that does not encourage them. The Left-Hand Path

is referred to as "heroic" because to succeed with it you must be

already in control of your own lower nature. Is that too complex a

concept for you? It was certainly good enough for Ramakrishna

Paramahansa. Oh yes, that's right, you got no use for

Ramakrishna whatever.

> Lilith M.

>

> --- omprem <omprem wrote:

>

> "There is a ritual for purifying liquor"

>

> The only way that liquor can be purified is by dealcoholizing it.

>

> All this rubbish about including alcohol in pUjAs, is merely an

attempt by the weak to justify their dependence on alcohol and to

cover up their inability attain a transcendent consciousness

through their own efforts.

>

> I've been away for a few weeks but I see that all the usual

suspects are busy promoting their licentious ways under the

guise of religious/scriptural blessings. Of course those

'blessings' were originally just attempts by the weak to justify

their own weakness. Now those early attempts at justification

are now elevated to Holy Writ by the current crop of ethical/moral

weaklings in attempt to justify today's weaknesses and lapses.

>

> The more things change, the more they remain the same.

>

> OM Namah Sivah

>

> Omprem

>

> , Lili Masamura

>

> <sephirah5 wrote:

> And what about the three curses that reside in alcohol? I

believe I have mentioned this before. Unless one performs a

Soma Yajna over the liquor before it is drunk, you are taking into

your body a cursed substance! One has only to look at all the

human suffering associated directly or indirectly with alcohol

drinking to have proof of this. There is a ritual for purifying liquor,

given in the book "Kali Puja".

> Lilith M.

>

> --- sankara menon <kochu1tz wrote:

>

> You have put it perfectly. There is serious business and fake

business. In serious business none gets drunk. Infact I am of

opinion in serious

> business it is rather very difficult to get drunk.

>

> It is also m test that if one gets drunk what has taken place is

NOT pooja.

>

> swastik108@a... wrote:

>

> In a message dated 1/19/2005 4:30:38 PM Eastern Standard

Time, devi_bhakta writes:

>

> Similarly, though some Tantric pujas may involve offering

alcohol

> (brandy, etc) to Devi, and the sadhak partaking a small amount

him or herself -- that doesn't mean that Tantrics are drunken

sots who get a kick out of abusing all kinds of mind-altering

substances.

>

> Hahah

>

> This reminds me of my experiences hanging out with the

Tantriks in Tarapith. I watched the temple pujaris do a huge

Yantra puja with at least a dozen bottles of open booze, both

moonshine (Bangla) and

> whiskey (english) afterwards everyone taking small amounts

themselves and not trying to get wrecked...

>

> Now in the cremation grounds with all these crazy pagala

Tantrik fakers (not to be confused with fakirs) you see these guys

dressed like holy men and getting money from people then

immediately buying

> large bottles of local moonshine and getting as drunk as

possible.

>

> One man was my best friend until he asked for money and I

refused him, he then got enraged and claimed I cheated him

because he gave me the privilege of his darshan!

>

> Read only the mail you want - Mail SpamGuard.

>

January 23, 2005

No one who is a shakta promotes over indulgence in anything.

There is no CASUAL SEX is shakti sadhana.

There is NO PLAYING with Faeces in Shakti Sadhana

There are no weierd practices in SHAKTI Sadhana.

Lets us be clear on that. OK?

omprem <omprem wrote:

" you must be already in control of your own lower nature"

If one is in control of their lower nature why would they be

drinking alcohol, using drugs, engaging in casual sex, playing with faeces or

participating in any of the other weird and not-so-wonderful practices promoted

by you and others on this board? All of these practices are evidence that the

lower nature is in the ascendency and most decidedly is not under control.

Om Namah Sivaya

Omprem

, Lili Masamura

<sephirah5> wrote:

> Hey, I didn't make the ritual up; it was published

> under the authority of Shri Maa, who is in fact a

> God-realized person, unlike yourself. I thought the

> long silence was too good to be true...the reason the

> Samaya Path is the "pure" one is because the people on

> it are not in control of their animalistic tendencies

> and have to follow a path that does not encourage

> them. The Left-Hand Path is referred to as "heroic"

> because to succeed with it you must be already in

> control of your own lower nature. Is that too complex

> a concept for you? It was certainly good enough for

> Ramakrishna Paramahansa. Oh yes, that's right, you got

> no use for Ramakrishna whatever.

> Lilith M.

> --- omprem <omprem> wrote:

>

> >

> > "There is a ritual for purifying liquor"

> >

> > The only way that liquor can be purified is by

> > dealcoholizing it.

> >

> > All this rubbish about including alcohol in pujas,

> > is merely an

> > attempt by the weak to justify their dependence on

> > alcohol and to

> > cover up their inability attain a transcendent

> > consciousness

> > through their own efforts.

> >

> > I've been away for a few weeks but I see that all

> > the usual

> > suspects are busy promoting their licentious ways

> > under the

> > guise of religious/scriptural blessings. Of course

> > those

> > 'blessings' were originally just attempts by the

> > weak to justify

> > their own weakness. Now those early attempts at

> > justification

> > are now eleveated to Holy Writ by the current crop

> > of

> > ethical/moral weaklings in attempt to justify

> > todays' weaknesses

> > and lapses.

> >

> > The more things change, the more they remain the

> > same.

> >

> > OM Namah Sivah

> >

> > Omprem

> >

> > , Lili Masamura

> >

> > <sephirah5> wrote:

> > > And what about the three curses that reside in

> > > alcohol? I believe I have mentioned this before.

> > > Unless one performs a Soma Yajna over the liquor

> > > before it is drunk, you are taking into your body

> > a

> > > cursed substance! One has only to look at all the

> > > human suffering associated directly or indirectly

> > with

> > > alcohol drinking to have proof of this. There is a

> > > ritual for purifying liquor, given in the book

> > "Kali

> > > Puja".

> > > Lilith M.

> > > --- sankara menon <kochu1tz> wrote:

> > >

> > > > You have put it perfectly. There is serious

> > business

> > > > and fake business. In erious business none gets

> > > > drunk. Infact I am of opinion in serious

> > business it

> > > > is ratrher very difficult to get drunk.

> > > >

> > > > It is also m test that if one gets drunk what

> > has

> > > > taken place is NOT pooja.

> > > >

> > > > swastik108@a... wrote:

> > > > In a message dated 1/19/2005 4:30:38 PM Eastern

> > > > Standard Time,

> > > > devi_bhakta writes:

> > > > Similarly, though some Tantric pujas may involve

> > > > offering alcohol

> > > > (brandy, etc) to Devi, and the sadhak partaking

> > a

> > > > small amount him or

> > > > herself -- that doesn't mean that Tantrics are

> > > > drunken sots who get a

> > > > kick out of abusing all kinds of mind-altering

> > > > substances.

> > > > Hahah

> > > >

> > > > This reminds me of my experiences hanging out

> > with

> > > > the Tantriks in Tarapith.

> > > > I watched the temple pujaris do a huge Yantra

> > puja

> > > > with at least a dozen

> > > > bottles of open booze, both moonshine (Bangla)

> > and

> > > > whiskey (english) afterwards

> > > > everyone taking small amounts themselves and not

> > > > trying to get wrecked...

> > > >

> > > > Now in the cremation grounds with all these

> > crazy

> > > > pagala Tantrik fakers (not

> > > > to be confused with fakirs) you see these guys

> > > > dressed like holy men and

> > > > getting money from people then immediately

> > buying

> > > > large bottles of local moonshine

> > > > and getting as drunk as possible.

> > > >

> > > > One man was my best friend until he asked for

> > money

> > > > and I refused him, he

> > > > then got enraged and claimed I cheated him

> > because

> > > > he gave me the privelage of

> > > > his darshan!

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > > > removed]

> > > >

> > > > Links

> > > >

> > > > /

> > > >

> > > > To from this group, send an email

> > to:

> > > >

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> > > >

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January 23, 2005

My dear Om Prem:

This is not an evangelist group. We follow texts and Guru upadesha as far as

possible. If your Guru, Vishnudevananda said that all this is Bull shit its OK

or YOU. I am sure Vishnudevananda never said that Shakti Sadhana(as prescribe by

Shakta texts) is wrong.Please do not think that that which you know not is

wrong. You can do your sadhana as you please. Let others do what is prescribed

FOR them. But please remember that intolarence for others' belief systems is not

really aceptable.

When ine is in a group be tolerant of others and their beliefs. Why not quote

authorities including your own Guru? (we want specific sentences; not sentences

taken out of context or misunderstood interpretations).

Mere assertions without basis is unacceptable OK?

Some of us, poor souls, have some gurus tii

omprem <omprem wrote:

"It is odd that sadhana is suppose to decondition our mind, that

increase the vibration of the mind."

Why do you find it odd that sadhana deconditions the mind and

in doing so enables the mind to achieve a higher, more sattvic

vibration, which vibration is necessary for spiritual discernment

and advancement?

Sadhanna is rigorous self-discipline to eliminate those

tendencies and practices that dull the consciousness. Sadhana

is not an exercise, as so many on this board seem to believe, in

justifying those practices and tendencies that dull the

consciousness but which are sooo enjoyable on a short-term

basis. This type of psuedo-sadhana is nothing but

self-delusion, self-justification, and self-hypnosis for the weak

and the uninformed.

OM Namah Sivaya

Omprem

, "NMadasamy"

<nmadasamy@s...> wrote:

>

> omprem wrote: "There is a ritual for purifying liquor" The only

way

> that liquor can be purified is by deal coholizing it. All this

> rubbish about including alcohol in pujas, is merely an attempt

by

> the weak to justify their dependence on alcohol and to cover up

> their inability attain a transcendent consciousness through

their

> own efforts.

>

> oooooooooo Ompremji is back again. As Im reading omprem

messages I

> am reminded of a conversation : He is just another

ex-alcoholic who

> is undergoing withdrawal syndrome. Now he began to

condemn others

> and call them awful names.

>

> Ah! I remember going through the archives to add something

for the

> frequent asked question page, and I came across this, written

by

> omprem himself in his list of 5 actions in sadhana :

>

> "2. (b) You are what you think. Think positively all the time. If

> you have negative thoughts/emotions regarding some person

or event

> then you have not understood the sitiuation properly.."

>

> So I like to rephrase this sentence again : You have such

negative

> thoughts/emotions regarding some ritual/sadhana then you

have not

> understood the whole thing all about. The point is why do we

even

> bother to try to make somebody like yourself to understand our

> ritual. For no matter you will never. Your mind have been block.

It

> like hitting against a wall.

>

> And hey this what you wrote in the beginning :

>

> "Sadhana is practical mysticism. It consists of performing

those

> actions that decondition your mind, that increase the vibration

of

> the mind, and that remove obstacles to the movement of

prana,

> especially kundalini"

>

> It is odd that sadhana is suppose to decondition our mind, that

> increase the vibration of the mind. I expect somebody like

yourself

> to be more open and tolerant, instead of criticising certain

> practices that you have no knowledge of.

>

> Perhaps you should lead the thread and discuss about the B.

Gita. It

> will do all of us good, and perhaps you too. The B.Gita can be

very

> reflective.

/

January 23, 2005

My aunt was a principal deciple of his starting from early 50s. She attained

Samadhi in late 90s. I had the foortune to accompany her to the great man for

the first time in 1959 (as you seem to want exact dates); Then again I had

continuing association with Shivananda Ashram almost every alternate year during

summer holidays for 2 months at a time and I have continued the association with

Swami Chidananda Saraswatihis successor - who used to stay with us during his

visits to South India; and with Swami Krishananda who was No. 2 in the Ashram.

Thats what i said. Yes the relationship was such that even as a small boy I

could walk into his Kutia on the Banks of Ganga as and when i pleased; he and

Chidanandaji and Krishnandaji always encouraged me and helped me. They never

found anything wrong when i was initiated into Shakta path and always answered

my questions. They NEVER said that kaula path is wrong.(by the way please be

assured that I am not a person who inulges in drunken bouts

and lisentious sex).

Regarding Vishnudevanada, he also visited Kerala whenever he came to India and

he was a welcome visitor to this fool's house (as has been many sages and saints

for generations). He has seen my pooja. Just because someone left India in 1957

it does not mean that he never again visited the shores and he never had any

intercourse with poor Indians and confined his relationships to exalted whites

alone.

I am not dimished with anything nor am I exalted by anything. I am what I am.

I am sickened at the use of the names of these personalities for asserting

convoluted misunderstanding of what things are.

It is just like your suspecting me of having "Hijacked" the group when i have

been the least active of moderators. Jumping into conclusions when the very

basis is wrong.

I am sorry I had to say all this. But the whole continued attack without basis

and not knowing the funamentals of Shakti Sadhana is nauseating and I just

thought i have to respond.

I am NOT writing this as a moderator. But as an ordinary member and these views

are mine and mine alone.

There is more to be said, but as a kaula and believing the aphorism

kshamaabalamashaktaanaam shaktaanaam bhooshanam kshamaa - if you do not

understand "It is a virtue for the weak to be tolerant and for the Strong it is

an adornment"; I refrain.

I will just say that without disparging others' practices and beliefs why don't

you just expound your own so that people may benift?

omprem <omprem wrote:

" Having had reasonable associations both with Shivananda

Saraswati and his deciple Vishnu devananda going back about

4+ decades"

Swami Sivananda entered Mahasamadhi in 1963, some 42

years ago, so it is not possible that you had any type of

relationship with him 'going back about 4+ decades".

Similary, Swami Vishhnudevananda left India in 1957 under the

directions of Swami Sivananda to set up ashrams and Yoga

centers in the west. While Swami Vishnu did return to India

occassionally, he spent most of his time in the West. I doubt that you had any

type of 'reasonable association' with him either. You may have fancied that you

had a superficial relationship with him if you happened to meet him the odd time

just as any of tens of thousands of people could claim, but you did not have

anything near to a 'reasonable' or close relationship with him.

Please do not attempt to build yourself up by falsely asserting association with

these particular Gurus. You only diminish yourself in the eyes of others.