Guest guest Posted February 1, 2005 Report Share Posted February 1, 2005 sephirah5 wrote: Well, as to knowing how one has become "enlightened", I started to get an inkling that "it" had happened when I happened to read some personal accounts of people who were "realized" and I found I knew EXACTLY what they were talking about because similar things had and were happening to me. Good Morning Sephirah, Thank you. "Mind is the source of freedom and also of bondage" [Mind according to Vedanta, Swami Satprakashananda] A mind can trap us in our own illusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Well, someday when it happens to you, maybe then you will understand what I am saying... Lilith M. --- NMadasamy <nmadasamy wrote: > > sephirah5 wrote: Well, as to knowing how one has > become "enlightened", I started to get an inkling > that "it" had > happened when I happened to read some personal > accounts of people > who were "realized" and I found I knew EXACTLY what > they were > talking about because similar things had and were > happening to me. > > Good Morning Sephirah, Thank you. > > "Mind is the source of freedom and also of bondage" > [Mind according to Vedanta, Swami Satprakashananda] > > A mind can trap us in our own illusion. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2005 Report Share Posted February 3, 2005 Sephirah5 wrote: Well, someday when it happens to you, maybe then you will understand what I am saying... Perhaps Sephire! Perhaps! but again, when it ever happens or will it ever happen , will I know? To be honest, I rather not want to know about it. I rather not look forward for that day. To me a state of realization and enlightment is what others see in you and not what you see into yourself. Once you start to be conscious of yourself, that is when delusion begin. In Tripura Rahasya : Parasurama remarked about Sage Samvarta, "His greatness was like red hot coal hidden in embers. Every inch of his body filled one with exhilaration so that I have a refreshing feeling in his mere proximity." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 --- NMadasamy <nmadasamy wrote: > > Sephirah5 wrote: Well, someday when it happens to > you, maybe then > you will understand what I am saying... > > Perhaps Sephire! Perhaps! but again, when it ever > happens or will > it ever happen , will I know? To be honest, I rather > not want to > know about it. I rather not look forward for that > day. To me a state > of realization and enlightment is what others see in > you and not > what you see into yourself. Once you start to be > conscious of > yourself, that is when delusion begin. ############################################### I disagree; Ramakrishna certainly demonstrated that he was aware that he had "attained"; he even at one point set out to describe the complete experience to his devotees, but when he attempted to explain what happened after achieving the level of "ajna", he kept slipping into samadhi, and thus was unable to complete the description! One begins to detach from one's ego and observe it as it goes about its worldly life, and thus delusion is not possible. The Mother is there at all times to prevent this happening; just as Ramakrishna, possessed by Kali, spun about and slapped Rani Rasmani's face right in the middle of puja to correct her for her thinking about worldly matters at that moment instead of concentrating on the worship, the Mother stands ready to prevent her faithful devotee from slipping into delusion and worldliness at all times. But this happens only after one has proven to the Mother that one wants Her to the exclusion of all else! ################################################ > > In Tripura Rahasya : Parasurama remarked about Sage > Samvarta, "His > greatness was like red hot coal hidden in embers. > Every inch of his > body filled one with exhilaration so that I have a > refreshing > feeling in his mere proximity." > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Lili Masamura wrote: I disagree; Ramakrishna certainly demonstrated that he was aware that he had "attained"; he even at one point set out to describe the complete experience to his devotees, but when he attempted to explain what happened after achieving the level of "ajna", he kept slipping into samadhi, and thus was unable to complete the description! One begins to detach from one's ego and observe it as it goes about its worldly life, and thus delusion is not possible. yes Lili you have just said it : One begins to detach from one's ego ... Did Ramakrishna Or Amritanandamata publicly tell others : hey! I am the realise one. I am the enlightened one! They show it by their actions. That is what I am saying all the time : your action is the prove of your state of being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Well, in case you hadn't noticed, we are ONLINE here, and it is hard to demonstrate by any "action" OTHER than words, when nobody can SEE anyone else! These are circumstances that Ramakrishna and all the other great saints did not have to contend with! The very best way to test anyone making such grandiose claims is to ask pertinent questions, rather than jumping feet first into ridicule and denigration. Surely you must have tested your own guru first before you sat at his feet? If not, well, then, you get the guru you deserve! I am prepared to share information; in fact I have been doing this all along. I have even invited people to talk to me offlist if they wish. I have made no secret of the methods, but nobody is remotely interested in further information..one would think people who express so much interest in attainment would at least be mildly curious, but no, not at all. This simply demonstrates the lack of sincere desire for God which is, of course, the mark of the Kali Yuga. Lilith M. --- NMadasamy <nmadasamy wrote: > > Lili Masamura wrote: I disagree; Ramakrishna > certainly demonstrated > that he was aware that he had "attained"; he even at > one point set > out to describe the complete experience to his > devotees, but when he > attempted to explain what happened after achieving > the level > of "ajna", he kept slipping into samadhi, and thus > was unable to > complete the description! One begins to detach from > one's ego and > observe it as it goes about its worldly life, and > thus delusion is > not possible. > > > yes Lili you have just said it : One begins to > detach from one's > ego ... Did Ramakrishna Or Amritanandamata publicly > tell others : > hey! I am the realise one. I am the enlightened one! > They show it by > their actions. That is what I am saying all the time > : your action > is the prove of your state of being. > > > > Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail./mail_250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2005 Report Share Posted February 6, 2005 Lili Masamura wrote: Well, in case you hadn't noticed, we are ONLINE here, and it is hard to demonstrate by any "action" OTHER than words, when nobody can SEE anyone else! These are circumstances that Ramakrishna and all the other great saints did not have to contend with! .. Lili! Lili! My dear darling Lili. Whatever you say. Hey! if you want to consider yourself as one of the realized one, so let it be. Gosh! How fortunate we are in Shakti Sadhana. Lets all drink to that !!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2005 Report Share Posted February 6, 2005 Yes, and we can eat some meat to celebrate, too , "NMadasamy" <nmadasamy@s...> wrote: > > Lili Masamura wrote: Well, in case you hadn't noticed, we are ONLINE > here, and it is hard to demonstrate by any "action" OTHER than > words, when nobody can SEE anyone else! These are circumstances that > Ramakrishna and all the other great saints did not have to contend > with! .. > > > > Lili! Lili! My dear darling Lili. Whatever you say. Hey! if you want > to consider yourself as one of the realized one, so let it be. Gosh! > How fortunate we are in Shakti Sadhana. Lets all drink to that !!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2005 Report Share Posted February 6, 2005 One of the signs of God-realization is joy. There is absolutely no hesitancy in such a person, who is like an ocean in joyous waves. But deep beneath the surface, there is profound silence and peace. ---Sri Ramakrishna These are from Rumi, (I'm pretty sure, some of it may be Hafiz...): If a torrent of love for spirit has gone by, where is the streambed? Why are you sour? Don't be absorbed in the waterwheel's motion Turn your gaze to the river .... there are several signs in eyes that see all the way to the ocean. Bewilderment is one. Those who look out to sea become the sea, and they can't speak about that. On the beach there's desire-singing and rage-ranting, the elaborate language-dance of personality, but in the waves and underneath there's no volition, no hypocrisy, just love forming and unfolding... And this from China, no attribution: Like a stream of music flowing throughout the whole being. the Book of the Yellow Court: The great Tao plays! Wonderful peace! Wonderful peace! Concentrate to the utmost all your willpower in order to contemplate the true One of the Tao... And from Lao Tze: I let my heart revel where things had their beginning. Dark! Dark! Mystery! Mystery! In the center there are Essences, most true Essences. ---Hun-Yuan Huang-Di Sheng-Zhi M -- Max Dashu Suppressed Histories Archives Global Women's History http://www.suppressedhistories.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2005 Report Share Posted February 6, 2005 Mary Ann wrote: Yes, and we can eat some meat to celebrate, too hahhaaaa Mary Ann. No wonder people are running away from us. We sound like cannibals. What do you like to eat? MEAT. Maybe time to tell others : Please save yourself from us eh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Thank you, Nora, I knew you would eventually understand. Have one on me. Lilith M. --- NMadasamy <nmadasamy wrote: > > Lili! Lili! My dear darling Lili. Whatever you say. Hey! if you want to > consider yourself as one of the realized one, so let it be. Gosh! > How fortunate we are in Shakti Sadhana. Lets all drink to that !!!! > > Lili Masamura wrote: Well, in case you hadn't > noticed, we are ONLINE > here, and it is hard to demonstrate by any "action" > OTHER than > words, when nobody can SEE anyone else! These are > circumstances that > Ramakrishna and all the other great saints did not > have to contend > with! .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Don't forget the fish, parched grain and the "making whoopee" as well! Might as well cover all bases! Lilith M. --- Mary Ann <buttercookie61 wrote: > > > Yes, and we can eat some meat to celebrate, too > > , "NMadasamy" > <nmadasamy@s...> > wrote: > > > > Lili Masamura wrote: Well, in case you hadn't > noticed, we are > ONLINE > > here, and it is hard to demonstrate by any > "action" OTHER than > > words, when nobody can SEE anyone else! These are > circumstances > that > > Ramakrishna and all the other great saints did not > have to contend > > with! .. > > > > > > > > Lili! Lili! My dear darling Lili. Whatever you > say. Hey! if you > want > > to consider yourself as one of the realized one, > so let it be. > Gosh! > > How fortunate we are in Shakti Sadhana. Lets all > drink to that !!!! > > > > > > > Mail - You care about security. So do we. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 "One of the signs of God-realization is joy." All this is true, of course. But the essential personality remains as well. Realized people, despite being filled with joy, do not necessarily behave towards others in a "saintly" fashion. The great Ma Tara devotee and saint Bamakhepa ("Crazy saint") would behave in antisocial ways, throwing shit at people, insulting and verbally abusing them, never wore clothes, and smoked his chillum (hashish pipe) incessantly, while wandering around in the cremation ground where he lived all his life. One of Ammaji's devotees, in "Women Saints of India" describes encountering an avadhuta who merely sat in a corner, and would spit on and insult people who came for his darshan. Ammaji would sit there with him while he would spit on her, and then remark after they left, "He's really in the Supreme state!", and the devotees would all chorus, "Oh! If that's the "supreme state" I don't want anything to do with it!", and Mother would respond, "You cannot understand until you yourself have realized, why he is like that!" Ammaji herself went through the avadhut state, wandering alone around in the jungle, eating any old thing she was given or able to find, and sitting motionless or dancing in the torrential monsoon rains for hours. Ramakrishna would wander about naked, oblivious to his condition, or indeed, to anything else, when he was going through the early part of his samadhi. So, hanging on to the illusion that "realization" always transforms one into a physical embodiment of "sweetness and light towards all" according to popular definition will seriously hamper one in the recognition of the "realization" of one's own self, or of others! Lilith M. --- Max Dashu <maxdashu wrote: > One of the signs of God-realization is joy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 In a message dated 2/7/2005 7:02:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, lars writes: I for one wouldn't choose what appears as an idiot as my teacher. It's a tough call isn't it! I mean if a person totally manifested a type of "white light" flowery consciousness people could call him realized, BUT What if someone manifested a totally "evil" consciousness, would people say the same things about them? Was Hitler enlightened? Of course, we would all say NO! There is something terrifying when we se the divine manifest destructively, even recently we can see the damage done by the Tsunami and everyone wonders why? It's easy to see the death and destruction and forget that we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Ma's creative aspect in the first place. Thank you Ma Kali! Well nature carries me to awestruck levels of delight and terrifies me also! So what are the signs of a realized person? How do you judge? Would they be full of love, or hate, or perhaps something completely other? I have never met a realized person to that degree to answer. How do I even find a Guru knowing there are so many varieties about?! I certainly always try to follow my heart on these things, but I dont think it can be easily defined at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Lili wrote: "So, hanging on to the illusion that "realization" always transforms one into a physical embodiment of "sweetness and light towards all" according to popular definition will seriously hamper one in the recognition of the "realization" of one's own self, or of others!" But how do we know that the persons you refered to are realized and not suffering from psychic illness? I for one wouldn't choose what appears as an idiot as my teacher. Lars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 swastik108 wrote: "So what are the signs of a realized person? How do you judge? Would they be full of love, or hate, or perhaps something completely other? I have never met a realized person to that degree to answer." The best book I have read describing Self-realization or Enlightment is The Three Pillars of Zen: Teaching, Practice, and Enlightenment by Philip Kapleau Roshi. Reda more: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385260938/ref=ase_wwwciolekcomasia/103-4\ 454492-4431059 Whne you read it it's almost so you get a foot in the state of Enlightment. In his "Bible" about yoga Feuerstein describes enlighted persons who behave odd showing that they are not any longer slave to cultural values. But that is one thing, behaving like a complete idiot another. Regards Lars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 swastik108 wrote: "So what are the signs of a realized person? How do you judge? Would they be full of love, or hate, or perhaps something completely other? I have never met a realized person to that degree to answer." In Tripura Rahasya, Parasurama commented about Sage Samvarta. "I have noticed that Samvarta, the Lord, is quite happy being completely free from any sense of obligation to act and its disastrous results. He seems to laugh at the ways of the world, to stride unconcerned up the road of fearlessness, like a majestic elephant refreshing itself in a lake of melted snow when the surrounding forest is on fire. I found him absolutely free from any sense of obligation and at the same time perfectly happy in his realization of Eternal Being." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 NMadasamy wrote: "I have noticed that Samvarta, the Lord, is quite happy being completely free from any sense of obligation to act and its disastrous results. He seems to laugh at the ways of the world, to stride unconcerned up the road of fearlessness, like a majestic elephant refreshing itself in a lake of melted snow when the surrounding forest is on fire. I found him absolutely free from any sense of obligation and at the same time perfectly happy in his realization of Eternal Being." Personally I wouldn't want to be free from my obligations to the world, the life, to all living beings. Regards Lars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 NMadasamy wrote and excerpt from the TR "I have noticed that Samvarta, the Lord, is quite happy being completely free from any sense of obligation to act and its disastrous results. He seems to laugh at the ways of the world, to stride unconcerned up the road of fearlessness, like a majestic elephant refreshing itself in a lake of melted snow when the surrounding forest is on fire. I found him absolutely free from any sense of obligation and at the same time perfectly happy in his realization of Eternal Being." Lars Hedström wrote: Personally I wouldn't want to be free from my obligations to the world, the life, to all living beings. You know what, the more you said you wouldn't want to be be free from your obligations, the more DEVI will make you. If its your destiny, can you prevent it. YOu can say : I am in control of my action, but the reality is that destiny will decides it. How often have I seen. I remember once a man told me" no! no! my son will not marry no other but indian girl" but eventually his son did marry a nonindian. Somebody said once to me : nope! I will never do such a thing, but atlas! he actually did it. When I asked him : how come, I thought you said, you will not do it. His response is : what to do, MA wants me to. Haaaaa That is why Lalitha is called the Playful one. She likes to play with you. You are in a shakti group, and you just said it. We shall see what she is capable of doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 Dear Lili: Can you direct me to a source material that discusses Amma's time spent on a beach motionless/speechless? I read about it online, but haven't found any further details, like how long she spent in that state, what she had to say about it later, etc. Gee, someone complained about being spat on and having excrement thrown at them? People these days just want to be spoonfed spiritual pablum! :-P The avadhoot you mention sounds like an upset child, and you are right, it is important to be able to realize such things in others and self to keep perspective. I read that Jesus cursed a fig tree, causing it to die because it bore no fruit when he was hungry, though it was not the time of year for figs to be produced. That tree was withered by the Master just for being there in its natural state. Reminds me of Donald Trump saying he nearly fired a great employee for asking him for a raise when The Donald was having a bad day. He mentioned that it is wise for people to recognize what is going on around them and with others before stepping into the fray. That advice is sage, and I have heard it from Amma, as well. Even so, I saw Trump as a big baby who likes to make others wrong instead of recognizing when he himself needs to get some perspective. Mary Ann , Lili Masamura <sephirah5> wrote: > > "One of the signs of God-realization is joy." > > All this is true, of course. But the essential personality remains as well. Realized people, despite being filled with joy, do not necessarily behave towards others in a "saintly" fashion. The great Ma Tara devotee and saint Bamakhepa ("Crazy saint") would behave in antisocial ways, throwing shit at people, insulting and verbally abusing them, never wore clothes, and smoked his chillum (hashish pipe) incessantly, while wandering around in the cremation ground where he lived all his life. One of Ammaji's devotees, in "Women Saints of India" describes encountering an avadhuta who merely sat in a corner, and would spit on and insult people who came for his darshan. Ammaji would sit there with him while he would spit on her, and then remark after they left, "He's really in the Supreme state!", and the devotees would all chorus, "Oh! If that's the "supreme state" I don't want anything to do with it!", and Mother would respond, "You cannot understand until you yourself have realized, why he is like that!" > > Ammaji herself went through the avadhut state, wandering alone around in the jungle, eating any old thing she was given or able to find, and sitting motionless or dancing in the torrential monsoon rains for hours. Ramakrishna would wander about naked, oblivious to his condition, or indeed, to anything else, when he was going through the early part of his samadhi. So, hanging on to the illusion that "realization" always transforms one into a physical embodiment of "sweetness and light towards all" according to popular definition will seriously hamper one in the recognition of the "realization" of > one's own self, or of others! > > Lilith M. > > --- Max Dashu <maxdashu@l...> wrote: > > > One of the signs of God-realization is joy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 I love the avadhutas. When they spit on someone, it is prasad. When they strike a blow, it takes away negative karma, or lifts awareness in some way. However, I've never heard of one who was concerned to protest that others did not recognize their enlightenment, accept their teachings, or for that matter, gave a damn what anyone else thinks of them. Quite the opposite. >So, hanging on to the illusion that "realization" always transforms >one into a physical embodiment of "sweetness and light towards all" >according to popular definition will seriously hamper one in the >recognition of the "realization" of >one's own self, or of others! Illusion or not, paradoxical behavior notwithstanding, anyone merged with the Divine Source is acting out of love. It may not seem like it, but cannot be otherwise. Max -- Max Dashu Suppressed Histories Archives Global Women's History http://www.suppressedhistories.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 This reminds me of BKS Iyengar claiming his adjustments during hatha yoga, which sound and look like body blows, are healing, similar to acupuncture or acupressure. It also makes me think of The Autobiography of a Yogi in which there is a story about a woman who, out of upset with her mother in law, stops eating, and never again needs to eat. God/dess or Self Realization or Universal Consciousness or whatever it is that we tap into that transforms us, it is not necessary for anyone else to recognize our spittle or excrement, body blows, or profanity, as divine, nor to argue or defend such things, IMHO. Mary Ann , Max Dashu <maxdashu@l...> wrote: > I love the avadhutas. When they spit on someone, it is prasad. When > they strike a blow, it takes away negative karma, or lifts awareness > in some way. However, I've never heard of one who was concerned to > protest that others did not recognize their enlightenment, accept > their teachings, or for that matter, gave a damn what anyone else > thinks of them. Quite the opposite. > > >So, hanging on to the illusion that "realization" always transforms > >one into a physical embodiment of "sweetness and light towards all" > >according to popular definition will seriously hamper one in the > >recognition of the "realization" of > >one's own self, or of others! > > Illusion or not, paradoxical behavior notwithstanding, anyone merged > with the Divine Source is acting out of love. It may not seem like > it, but cannot be otherwise. > > Max > > -- > Max Dashu > Suppressed Histories Archives > Global Women's History > http://www.suppressedhistories.net > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 Well, if they were meant to be your teacher, you would be inexplicably drawn to them in spite of your prejudices,or given some other indication that this is what was intended. Signs and indications of such things are always given, and at a certain point, one has to trust in one's intuition! Narendra (Vivekananda) was not initially attracted to Ramakrishna because he saw him at first as a representative of the "old" ways that he felt were holding India back, but it was not long before he was brought round to realization that Ramakrishna was in fact his guru! And if you fail to connect, then other opportunities will later arise, if one is truly ready. If one is truly obstinate, however, then you may have to wait a whole lifetime or two in order to get another opportunity! Lilith M. --- Lars Hedström <lars wrote: > > Lili wrote: > > "So, hanging on to the illusion that "realization" > always transforms one into a physical embodiment of > "sweetness and light towards all" according to > popular definition will seriously hamper one in the > recognition of the "realization" of > one's own self, or of others!" > > > But how do we know that the persons you refered to > are realized and not suffering from psychic illness? > > I for one wouldn't choose what appears as an idiot > as my teacher. > > > Lars > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 What, you mean you want to carry your karmic burden forever? We are meant to evolve PAST the need for physical bodies...wanting to stay stuck here in the physical realm is spiritual stagnation! If you mean, however, that you wish to be of service to humanity, and to hang around as a bodhisattva, rather than be dissolved in the Infinite, well, when you get to a certain point of spiritual development, you will be given the choice of one option or the other. Lilith M. --- Lars Hedström <lars wrote: > Personally I wouldn't want to be free from my > obligations to the world, the life, to all living > beings. > > Regards > > Lars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 God, yes, tell me about it...I can no longer count the number of times I have said "I will NEVER...." and then had to eat my words and do that very thing...sometimes within the week! So now I just say, "The only way I will EVER do (whatever it is) is if God wants me to!" That works much better! Lilith M. --- NMadasamy <nmadasamy wrote: > You know what, the more you said you wouldn't want > to be be free > from your obligations, the more DEVI will make you. > If its your > destiny, can you prevent it. YOu can say : I am in > control of my > action, but the reality is that destiny will decides > it. How often > have I seen. I remember once a man told me" no! no! > my son will not > marry no other but indian girl" but eventually his > son did marry a > nonindian. Somebody said once to me : nope! I will > never do such a > thing, but atlas! he actually did it. When I asked > him : how come, I > thought you said, you will not do it. His response > is : what to do, > MA wants me to. Haaaaa %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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