Guest guest Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 The Maa Batakali website is co-ordinated by a Neo-Pagan named Chandra Alexandre. She was a member of New Moon New York (as I have been), moved to California, and claims to have been initiated as a Shakta Priestess in Orissa. I don't think Chandra Alexandre is the same person as Alexandra Kafka. Kafka's grasp of English doesn't seem very good, and she has few social skills when communicating on the Net. Her usual style is to ask direct questions, without using "please,thank you," or any of the normal signs of civility. -- Len/ Kalipadma --- sankara menon <kochu1tz wrote: > > are you the same alexandra kafka who told me that > you are a sales girl in a book store in Austria? > > I think both the IDs are the same and that you are > just a knowledge miner who then purveys the info you > gather for use in the web site > http://maabatakali.org/. I think that web site > belongs to you. > > Do you need the info so that you can claim some Guru > gave it to you you are ordained this and that? You > were very provocative in ambal and some good soul > replied to you. Here, you know suh provocation is > not useful. So you ask. Very clever. > > That website is well done and can fool gullible > westerners. > > This missing and matching is a lot of nonsense. > > Yes I know the answers bt you will not get it from > me. Not for the purpose for which for which you are > mining. We Indians are kind but do not take us for > fools. > > Sorry thats it. > > alexandra_108 <alexandra_108 wrote: > > > > In Sri Yantra there a places where there seem to be > no Devis > > – On the bhupura > > – In the spaces between the lotus leaves of the > second and third enclosures > > – In the spaces between the other enclosures > > Are there no Devis or are they so very secret that > they are mentioned nowhere? > Celebrate 's 10th Birthday! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday./netrospective/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 I did a little google-ing.... I tend to agree with Len/Kalipadma; I would guess that alexandra_108 is indeed in Europe and is a non-native speaker of English. What she does with the answers to her many questions....who knows. , Len Rosenberg <kalipadma108> wrote: > > [....] > I don't think Chandra Alexandre is the same person as > Alexandra Kafka. Kafka's grasp of English doesn't > seem very good, [....] > --- sankara menon <kochu1tz> wrote: > > > > are you the same alexandra kafka who told me that > > you are a sales girl in a book store in Austria? > > > > I think both the IDs are the same and that you are > > just a knowledge miner who then purveys the info you > > gather for use in the web site > > http://maabatakali.org/. I think that web site > > belongs to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Her usual style is to ask > direct questions, without using "please,thank you," > or any of the normal signs of civility. > > -- Len/ Kalipadma You crafty savage Len, that wasn't nice. hahah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 me doubt whether different. me will check or get check the IP nos of both. Me come conclusion because some member of that group only mentions that both one. {How’s that for faulty English?) *smile*. When ppl have hidden agenda they can do all sorts of things to hide identity. I am basing my suspicions on verified data. But then we can all be wrong and this Alexandra may very well be a genuine person. But I strongly disagree on this mixing and matching. It can be too dangerous. And remember the subject of discussion is unusually silent. Len Rosenberg <kalipadma108 wrote: The Maa Batakali website is co-ordinated by a Neo-Pagan named Chandra Alexandre. She was a member of New Moon New York (as I have been), moved to California, and claims to have been initiated as a Shakta Priestess in Orissa. I don't think Chandra Alexandre is the same person as Alexandra Kafka. Kafka's grasp of English doesn't seem very good, and she has few social skills when communicating on the Net. Her usual style is to ask direct questions, without using "please,thank you," or any of the normal signs of civility. -- Len/ Kalipadma --- sankara menon wrote: are you the same alexandra kafka who told me that you are a sales girl in a book store in Austria? I think both the IDs are the same and that you are just a knowledge miner who then purveys the info you gather for use in the web site http://maabatakali.org/. I think that web site belongs to you. Do you need the info so that you can claim some Guru gave it to you you are ordained this and that? You were very provocative in ambal and some good soul replied to you. Here, you know suh provocation is not useful. So you ask. Very clever. That website is well done and can fool gullible westerners. This missing and matching is a lot of nonsense. Yes I know the answers bt you will not get it from me. Not for the purpose for which for which you are mining. We Indians are kind but do not take us for fools. Sorry thats it. alexandra_108 wrote: In Sri Yantra there a places where there seem to be no Devis – On the bhupura – In the spaces between the lotus leaves of the second and third enclosures – In the spaces between the other enclosures Are there no Devis or are they so very secret that they are mentioned nowhere? Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 I've corresponded with both Chandra Alexandre and Alexandra 108. Chandra is more New Agey than I'd prefer, but she is polite. Alexandra is just a question-generating machine, and she's rude. I'm nice to people who are nice to me. -- Len/ Kalipadma --- Eve__69 <eve__69 wrote: > > Her usual style is to ask > > direct questions, without using "please,thank > you," > > or any of the normal signs of civility. > > > > -- Len/ Kalipadma > > > You crafty savage Len, that wasn't nice. hahah > > > > Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail./mail_250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Hi Everyone ... I *may* be able to add something of substance to this conversation -- but please bear with me, because the context is essential to understanding the comments that follow. By way of background: Last October, I had an interesting, voluminous, and frankly kinda weird exchange of off-board correspondence with a woman who quit the Shakti Sadhana group, and wrote to tell me (since she thought I might be redeemable) that she felt Hinduism was inherently anti-female/feminist and patriarchal, and that Shaktism (as one of the four principle schools of Hinduism) was therefore also inherently anti-female/feminist and patriarchal. Basically, her feeling was that males could never understand the Goddess, and that any Goddess-oriented sect that allowed males to be gurus (or moderators) was inherently suspect. Her intention, she told me, was to basically "spread the word" among "Goddess Women" that Shaktism -- and the Shakti Sadhana group in particular -- presented an insidiously dangerous "trap" for nice pagan Goddess women, enticing them with a remarkably ancient and complete system of Goddess-oriented mythology, worship, ritual and scripture -- and then *bam!* sucking them back into the misery of its nasty, hidden underlying patriarchy. Hokay? Now how is all this relevant to the question of alexandra108 and her identity? Well, in the course of telling me that she would spread the word against Shaktism, this woman suddenly presented -- as a kind of secret weapon, intended to blow my mind and send me crashing to my knees, begging for mercy -- a "revelation" about alexandra108. She wrote: "I [have] discovered that the mysterious "A" or "Alexandra Kafka" was none other that Chandra Alexandre / Erin Johansen! I know Erin and I admire her and her work very much. If she is your [idea of] "Evil" then I am afraid I am very, very "Evil" by your standards. ... I am now discussing [the matter of Shakti Sadhana] with Erin ... "Alexander Kafka = Chandra Alexandra = Sharanya = the "A" who will be delighted [to know the "truth" about Shaktis Sadhana]! ... Erin and All shall shall know about the viscious control game you have played on women of the Goddess! Arrogant male fools! To think that Kali Ma was working for you and not for women!!!" End of quote. Okay? Now, I must quite honestly say that I did not then (nor do I now) understand the references to Evil, and "A" and Sharanya -- I am very definitely missing something there. But believe it or not, we xcahnged a few more (surprisingly civil and polite) letters, continuing our discussion. She eventually understood that there was no "vicious control game" going on here, though she still does not much care for Shaktism, and dislikes several (male) moderators of the Shakti Sadhana group. We parted on friendly terms, but have not corresponded since last autumn. The only reason I quote this is for the light it throws on the topic under discussion. So ... what do y'all think? DB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Wow! Bizarre! I briefly met Chandra Alexandre about a year and a half ago; she was giving a talk to a small group. Her thoughtful discussion of the meaning of "tantra" and the "5 m's" could have come from one of our moderators, and she handled a rather problematic question-and-answer session with remarkable good grace. And (to my recollection) she didn't represent Kali as a symbol or standard-bearer of feminist anger. I rather feel like I owe Ms. Alexandre a favor....I had a vague notion that Shaktism existed, but had no idea any segment of it would be accessible in any way to me. After the talk, I went home and googled up...this group! I have a hard time believing that Chandra and Alexandra are the same person, but perhaps it's so. As far as the patriarchy arguments go....I have a hard time getting my mind around the concepts enough to comment. However, the last time we had an on-group discussion of gender and authenticity, I remember thinking that (what I see as) the misunderstanding could spring from a fundamental difference of the Self. To my understanding, the Hindu concept of the ultimate Self does not include gender. While many (most?) Neopagans believe in reincarnation, there is not a set of shared beliefs about the fundamental Self. For a feminist Neopagan, that Self certainly could include gender. , "Devi Bhakta" <devi_bhakta> wrote: > [DB's correspondent wrote:] > "I [have] discovered that the mysterious > "A" or "Alexandra Kafka" was > none other that Chandra Alexandre / Erin Johansen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 I think they sound like lonely words. - "I [have] discovered that the mysterious "A" or "Alexandra Kafka" was none other that Chandra Alexandre / Erin Johansen! I know Erin and I admire her and her work very much. If she is your [idea of] "Evil" then I am afraid I am very, very "Evil" by your standards. ... I am now discussing [the matter of Shakti Sadhana] with Erin ... "Alexander Kafka = Chandra Alexandra = Sharanya = the "A" who will be delighted [to know the "truth" about Shaktis Sadhana]! ... Erin and All shall shall know about the viscious control game you have played on women of the Goddess! Arrogant male fools! To think that Kali Ma was working for you and not for women!!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 , "msbauju" <msbauju> wrote: > I briefly met Chandra Alexandre about a year and a half ago; she was > giving a talk to a small group. Her thoughtful discussion of the > meaning of "tantra" and the "5 m's" could have come from one of our > moderators, Bwahahahaaha - from what I've read here...it probably did. rofl. Blessings, prainbow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 , sankara menon <kochu1tz> wrote: > > very simple. Silly. mixing and matching is not the mre. > Whats this "ordained" priestess called? Rashini? ever hear of such an expression not in Hinduism as far as I know. > who is her initator? names are absent. But then any name can be flaunted. The poor "guru" will not know anything about his/her name being used. > Silly is one word for it all. Did u notice the deafening silence from the subject under discussion? > and the same silence descended once earlier when I questioned the motives behind the knowledge mining. Hello All, I've been a lurking here for some time, but it's time I pipe in. I am a member of SHARANYA and have known both Chandra and Erin for sometime. I'm including Chandra's bio here so you can see names are NOT absent. I understand of course that the world is full of people pretending to be gurus/have all sorts of secret knowledge and claim lineage they don't possess. Please don't jump to conclusions here, this Kafka person is obviously not Chandra nor does she know her or Erin. My guess is that she has conversed with one of them a few times via email, and wanted to add some creditability to her nonsense by name dropping. I also happen to know that neither of them are memebers of this group. I'm including some info about SHARANYA and I hope you will all look the website over and see what we are really about. Best, Caitlin Powell (This is my real name, you'll find me on the staff page if you want to check my credibility:) Bio- Chandra Alexandre, Ph.D. (President) is an Inner Council member and the Founder of SHARANYA, serving as the President of the corporation and its Executive. She is Rashani (Priestess) and offers worship ceremonies regularly. She is a graduate of the Women's Spirituality Master's Program, a doctorate holder in Philosophy & Religion from The California Institute of Integral Studies with a concentration in Asian & Comparative Studies (Hinduism), a holder of an additional doctorate from the University of Creation Spirituality in Oakland, focusing on bringing Spirit to the workplace, and is teaching there in January of 2004. Her dissertation from CIIS, titled Through Vulture's Eye-With Peacock's Tail: A Western (Eco)Feminist Engagement with Kali and The Black Madonna as Antinomian Agents of Transformation in a Patriarchal World, is currently available, and is currently finishing an MBA in Sustainable Management at Presidio World College. Chandra teaches on the Dark Goddess through the Institute of Transpersonal Psychology in Palo Alto, the University of Creation Spirituality in Oakland and the CIIS Lifelong Learning Program in San Francisco. She has also been a lecturer at The Cultural Integration Fellowship, and has spoken at the United Religions Initiative Gathering of Blessings at the Presidio Interfaith Chapel. Chandra is an active voice in Women's Sahayog in Kolkata (Calcutta), and since 1998, a yearly visitor to the Indian states of Assam, Orissa and West Bengal where she participates in lectures and project work as well as scholarly research. She is deeply committed to the work of alliance building among spiritual communities and education to eradicate erroneous beliefs about South Asia and its religious faiths. A long-time practitioner and Priestess of The Craft, Chandra received her initial initiation into women's mysteries from her grandmother, a lineage carrier in the Old Tradition. A native of New York, Chandra was also a founding member of New Moon-New York and the first Editor of Our Pagan Times. Chandra received diksha (initiation) into the Shakta tradition at a Kali temple in Puri, India from Shyam Sundar Dash, a Priest of Kali, and continues to work with both East and West in her practice. Her most recent connection to her spiritual ancestors occurred in Assam at Kamakhya Mandir during the festival of the goddess' menstruation?Ambubachi. In San Francisco, Chandra conducts spiritual counseling sessions for those interested in furthering their own personal growth and development and guides the community. She also leads annual pilgrimage tours to India. A teacher, speaker and writer on topics as diverse as animal liberation, ecofeminism, The Craft, transpersonal psychology and the yogini tradition of India, Chandra has appeared on MTV, Good Morning America, NPR and has lead workshops and classes in a variety of forums. She also teaches through Cherry Hill Seminary and Academy Arkadia, and is most recently a poetry contributor to The Book of Hope & The World Healing Book. Her current project is a devotional translation of the Kalikapurana. Her curriculum vitae includes many publications and presentations, including work in Sahayog, and academic conferences such as the New College Women's Spirituality Conference and the Association of Transpersonal Psychology conference, Thresholds of Creativity: Eros, Shadow and Spirit. She is a member of the Association of Interfaith Ministers and performs rites and other life-event ceremonies in the Bay Area. ------------ OUR VISION... We are a community of life-affirming individuals gathered to bridge East and West, as well as other differences amongst the divine Creation, in order to facilitate compassionate understanding through the tenets of Sha'can. In addition, we are activists who believe in engaged and embodied spirituality in the name of the Goddess in Her myriad manifestations, and particularly in Her most powerful forms. OUR MISSION... { To maintain The Sanctuary (our Goddess Temple or Devi Mandir) for regular worship, and the performance of special ceremonies such as rites of passage, handfastings, and other life events. { To promote awareness and change regarding the mind-body-spirit issues affecting women and girls here and in India. { To promote cross-cultural and interfaith dialogue and create spaces for alliance building. { To educate about and foster awareness of the Divine Feminine in life. { To lead sacred pilgrimages to India and other sacred sites around the world which deepen spiritual and cultural knowledge. { To establish reverence for partnership between Sacred Feminine and Sacred Masculine. { To help all spiritual seekers committed to a life-affirming path learn new methods of worship and ritual. { To inform about South Asian culture and religion. { To better the situation of women and children in India through SHARANYA in Action. 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Guest guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Namaste everyone, Thank you for saying this Msbauju. I'm not quite sure I am following the whole of the conversation thread here but I wanted to speak on behalf of Chandra and say that she is the reason that I came to know Kali Maa as the loving Mother that she is; accepting and beautiful, not "angry" or whatever it was that this other alexandra person had written. She does in fact teach courses at the university level on the Dark Goddesses(which includes Kali and Goddesses from other traditions). I volunteer for her non-profit organization, Sharanya, and if you look her up under the staff section it tells you where (Puri) and from whom she received diksha. I know there are quite a few of you that aren't comfortable with the blending of Paganism and Shakta traditions and that is fine, to each their own. However, please know that she is not misleading or "tricking" anyone. Everyone that comes to a circle or puja at the sanctuary knows very much, up-front, that they are learning about two traditions. I have been a member of Sharanya since last August. I grew up Catholic and am not Pagan nor do I feel a deep connection with Paganism. I am a member of Sharanya because of what I have learned of the Shakta tradition and my love for Maa in my heart. I'm saying this because I want to just emphasize that Sharanya and Chandra are accepting of people of all religious faiths, backgrounds, colors, sizes,etc. I've learned to take what I love and connect with(Maa) and leave behind what I don't. My life has changed because of the Sharanya community and how accepting they have been and continue to be of me in my life. I see Maa everywhere and in everyone and my heart is full because of the unconditional love I feel for and from Her. So, while I know some of you aren't comfortable with the blending together of these two traditions, please try and look at what the outcome has been for me(Coming to know and feel Maa in my heart:) before you judge others so harshly. Thank you for hearing me-Reese:) Jai Kali Maa! >"msbauju" <msbauju > > > Re: Questions about Alexandra vs. Alexandre >Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:54:31 -0000 > > >Wow! >Bizarre! > >I briefly met Chandra Alexandre about a year and a half ago; she was >giving a talk to a small group. Her thoughtful discussion of the >meaning of "tantra" and the "5 m's" could have come from one of our >moderators, and she handled a rather problematic question-and-answer >session with remarkable good grace. And (to my recollection) she >didn't represent Kali as a symbol or standard-bearer of feminist >anger. > >I rather feel like I owe Ms. Alexandre a favor....I had a vague >notion that Shaktism existed, but had no idea any segment of it would >be accessible in any way to me. After the talk, I went home and >googled up...this group! > >I have a hard time believing that Chandra and Alexandra are the same >person, but perhaps it's so. > >As far as the patriarchy arguments go....I have a hard time getting >my mind around the concepts enough to comment. However, the last >time we had an on-group discussion of gender and authenticity, I >remember thinking that (what I see as) the misunderstanding could >spring from a fundamental difference of the Self. To my >understanding, the Hindu concept of the ultimate Self does not >include gender. While many (most?) Neopagans believe in >reincarnation, there is not a set of shared beliefs about the >fundamental Self. For a feminist Neopagan, that Self certainly could >include gender. > >, "Devi Bhakta" ><devi_bhakta> wrote: > > [DB's correspondent wrote:] > > "I [have] discovered that the mysterious > > "A" or "Alexandra Kafka" was > > none other that Chandra Alexandre / Erin Johansen! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 One more thing. I've sent some of the emails to Erin, since Kafka was writing about her, and she may be able to clear up some of this mess. Best, Caitlin > > , sankara menon <kochu1tz> wrote: > > > > > very simple. Silly. mixing and matching is not the mre. > > Whats this "ordained" priestess called? Rashini? ever hear of such an expression not in Hinduism as far as I know. > > who is her initator? names are absent. But then any name can be flaunted. The poor "guru" will not know anything about his/her name being used. > > Silly is one word for it all. Did u notice the deafening silence from the subject under discussion? > > and the same silence descended once earlier when I questioned the motives behind the knowledge mining. > > > Hello All, > > I've been a lurking here for some time, but it's time I pipe in. I am a member of SHARANYA and have known both Chandra and Erin for sometime. I'm including Chandra's bio here so you can see names are NOT absent. I understand of course that the world is full of people pretending to be gurus/have all sorts of secret knowledge and claim lineage they don't possess. Please don't jump to conclusions here, this Kafka person is obviously not Chandra nor does she know her or Erin. My guess is that she has conversed with one of them a few times via email, and wanted to add some creditability to her nonsense by name dropping. I also happen to know that neither of them are memebers of this group. I'm including some info about SHARANYA and I hope you will all look the website over and see what we are really about. > > Best, > Caitlin Powell (This is my real name, you'll find me on the staff page if you want to check my credibility:) > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 She sounds pretty cool in my book. Anyone who figured out that Assam is the center of ancient Shaktism shows some scholarship. Already worshipping the Goddess (wink at wife) I need not another guru. The Dakini is my sangha anyway. It's all good in the hood. wink wink nudge nudge. I'm not sure to what degree people here care if Alex 108 is also Chandra, but moreover, people really are just curious what Alexandra's motives for being a knowledge miner are. And myself I just wonder what was with the twenty question at all times, and whether she deserved the thoughtful answers that she got so often. But having no knowledge of her personality any way, I am more likely to think that Alex Kafka is actually a man, who later changed persona to Alexandra, or whathaveyou, much as I usually go by Eve 69, though not female, u make the connection or not as it were. (did Adam?) and so I ramble. But mainly who cares anyway since all this info is easily gotten, and getting easier to get. Only twenty years ago, I would not have heard of the Shakti Peethas, Jyotirlingas, Dzogchen practice caves and so on. Now, due to the net, I'm all over them. Information flow should be like this, simple as clicking a button. This is a very fortunate time. For all of us. It is quite likely that with some study someone of any possible tradition can find a guru. - Caitlin Thursday, March 10, 2005 4:16 PM Re: Questions about Alexandra vs. Alexandre One more thing. I've sent some of the emails to Erin, since Kafka was writing about her, and she may be able to clear up some of this mess. Best, Caitlin > > , sankara menon <kochu1tz> wrote: > > > > > very simple. Silly. mixing and matching is not the mre. > > Whats this "ordained" priestess called? Rashini? ever hear of such an expression not in Hinduism as far as I know. > > who is her initator? names are absent. But then any name can be flaunted. The poor "guru" will not know anything about his/her name being used. > > Silly is one word for it all. Did u notice the deafening silence from the subject under discussion? > > and the same silence descended once earlier when I questioned the motives behind the knowledge mining. > > > Hello All, > > I've been a lurking here for some time, but it's time I pipe in. I am a member of SHARANYA and have known both Chandra and Erin for sometime. I'm including Chandra's bio here so you can see names are NOT absent. I understand of course that the world is full of people pretending to be gurus/have all sorts of secret knowledge and claim lineage they don't possess. Please don't jump to conclusions here, this Kafka person is obviously not Chandra nor does she know her or Erin. My guess is that she has conversed with one of them a few times via email, and wanted to add some creditability to her nonsense by name dropping. I also happen to know that neither of them are memebers of this group. I'm including some info about SHARANYA and I hope you will all look the website over and see what we are really about. > > Best, > Caitlin Powell (This is my real name, you'll find me on the staff page if you want to check my credibility:) > > / b.. c.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Hi Caitlin: Just to clarify, Alexandra Kafka did not write that "revelation" I excerpted in my last post; it was a third party, a woman who has since left the group. She claimed to be a friend or acquaintance of Chandra and Erin, and told me that the ID alexandra108 (i.e. "Alexandra Kafka") was their alter ego. This raised some eyebrows, since alexandra108 has a strange habit of posting brief, extremely esoteric questions; then not responding to replies (just "harvesting" them, I assume); then disappearing until her next question. Such Netiquette-challenged behavior has caused many members (as you can see in this thread) to grow weary of this person and suspicious of her motives, whatever they may be. The calimed connection between "Alexandra Kafka" and Chandra Alexandre appeared to make sense at first glance -- because Alexandre is one of the more prominent "mix and match" practitioners, borrowing from several different traditions, preserving many outward trappings and symbols of Shaktism, but comparatively little of its authentic, traditional content. As MSBauju noted and as you know, Alexandre appears to be quite well versed in Shakta lore and thus (it seemed to us) would probably be entirely capable of coming up with the sorts of esoteric questions that alexandra108/Kafka typically posts. As I said, all of these "revelations" happened last October, and we made no big deal of it. Just noted the connection and carried on. The problem arose last week when this Kafka began -- in this and several other forums -- aggressively circling in on Sriyantra itself, the sanctum sanctorum of Shaktism, which is generally not delved into too deeply without initiation and the close guidance of a guru. My interpretation of Kochu's (and others') objection would be this: While it is fine, even complimentary in a way to "borrow" South Asian and Shakta imagery to illustrate or reinforce some "new tradition" (oxymoron?), as Chandra Alexandre appears to be doing, there is a certain point where Shakta/ Srividya/ Kaula practice reaches a critical mass and power, and cannot too lightly (or safely, or respectfully) be removed from their original context to serve whatever spiritual/ social/ environmental/ political causes the "borrower" wishes to use them for. Because at bottom, Shaktism is extremely grounded in the material, tangible universe -- more oriented toward practice and quantifiable results than theory and speculative discussion. The shaktis of Sriyantra are unspeakably powerful and the techniques used to access and worship them are simply not safe or appropriate for those lacking proper training and guidance. One can very literally, very grievously harm oneself or others, and/or affect the flow of energy in important world processes. It's not a "system of symbolism" to be played with or "adapted" for the edification/"empowerment" of new audiences. At its highest levels, one must meet Shaktism on its own terms. If the devotee is not willing to do so, s/he quite truly ought to stay away from Sriyantra, except on the most superficial levels. Listen, we are really, truly not snobs here; that's not the thing. Our Khadgamala Stotra presentation (click on the front-page photo for details) is perhaps the most in-depth Sriyantra pooja ever made easily available and accessible to the general public. Many would say (and have said) that we have gone too far by offering it. However, even "religious liberals" like ourselves have to draw the line somewhere. If that line incorrectly pointed to Chandra Alexandre, then she has my sincerest apologies. Whomever Alexandra Kafka may be, however, ought to take note. Aum MAtangyai NamaH , "Caitlin" <caitlinbp@g...> wrote: > > > One more thing. > > I've sent some of the emails to Erin, since Kafka was writing about > her, and she may be able to clear up some of this mess. > Best, > Caitlin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Hi again! I wanted to respond to this... first off, I don't take offense to any of this, as it's very important stuff you're saying. The fact is, however, that Chandra, as an initiate, is not a dabbler, and treats the energy of these practices very seriously. It's impossible to really know unless you work within the tradition, really. What I can assure you is that the "respect" goes beyond mere research. Rather, Chandra has dedicated her life to the Kaula, and to making that accessible to the West in a safe, practical and respectful way. Because we are in a Western context, we must teach things in a Western context, and translate them, as it were, from the Indian paradigm. Practices are taught carefully and gradually, and participants are fully grounded in the knowledge behind the practice, and then in the practices themselves, and each level of initiation brings a deeper level of practice. It is developed over the course of years. Make no mistake, we are not a group of cloud chasing, smurf-worshipper women singing kumbaya and dabbling in Indian mysticism! We do not mistake powerful goddesses for mere symbols, though we appreciate and delve into the symbolic meaning of their murthis. In fact, the organization and tradition was founded to counteract the co-opting and denigrating of these powerful goddesses in the West, and provide an alternative that gave a true honoring. We are proponents of a powerfully embodied spirituality. In that vein, we do not believe that spirituality is separate from the world at large. At any rate, I hope this answers the question. I am grateful for this forum, and for your openness and honesty. Blessings and sa'ham, Erin > My interpretation of Kochu's (and others') objection would be this: > While it is fine, even complimentary in a way to "borrow" South > Asian and Shakta imagery to illustrate or reinforce some "new > tradition" (oxymoron?), as Chandra Alexandre appears to be doing, > there is a certain point where Shakta/ Srividya/ Kaula practice > reaches a critical mass and power, and cannot too lightly (or > safely, or respectfully) be removed from their original context to > serve whatever spiritual/ social/ environmental/ political causes > the "borrower" wishes to use them for. > > Because at bottom, Shaktism is extremely grounded in the material, > tangible universe -- more oriented toward practice and quantifiable > results than theory and speculative discussion. The shaktis of > Sriyantra are unspeakably powerful and the techniques used to access > and worship them are simply not safe or appropriate for those > lacking proper training and guidance. One can very literally, very > grievously harm oneself or others, and/or affect the flow of energy > in important world processes. It's not a "system of symbolism" to be > played with or "adapted" for the edification/"empowerment" of new > audiences. At its highest levels, one must meet Shaktism on its own > terms. If the devotee is not willing to do so, s/he quite truly > ought to stay away from Sriyantra, except on the most superficial > levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Namaste, I have had occasional posts from Alexandra for a couple of years now, and her questions have been quite naturally evolving. At first she seemed to be trying to track down the names and characteristics of every Hindu Goddess; and her focus was gradually drawn more particularly to the Shri Yantra and all that it contains. I am not surprised that she is still trying to fill in EVERY last space in the Yantra, but the task could be so much more simply completed with devotion to a single Guru of Shri Yantra. Like others here, I have been surprised by her apparently thankless "take the knowledge and run" manner. Since Alexandra is posting to this Group, perhaps we should ask questions of her directly, rather than discussing her as a third party. Alexandra, if you don't mind me asking, and if you are still with us, what is the purpose of all your questions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Thank You DB for the clear and catagoric statements. I am not capable of putting things so clearly. I, personally have been slammed very heavily for revealing many things. But I have been very carefull to go only to the extent necessary to open up real aspirants so that an apropriate Guru appears for the sinciere seeker. I am proud to say that my efforts have borne fruit at least to some of us here. That makes it easy to bear the insults and recriminations I have faced. Regarding Alexandra or Alexandre I have no problems in asking questions, but I do have objections to knowldge mining because that results in pontifications without foundation. There is the story of this harvard "professor" who deserves credit for searching out an astrological treatise called "yavana jataka" but his lack of depth was revealed by the fact despite the author of the book in his introduction said "I am a brahmin king in (the present) Gujarat......" and refers extensively to vedas the "professor" latched on to the single word "yavana" meaning Greek to say that indian astrology is "Greek astrology". The lack of basic knowledge of the subject made him jump into wrong conclusions. What I mean is that without fundamental basic knowledge, the conclusions drawn would be wrong. This is the reason why I am against the mixing and matching. similarly, it may be noted that getting hands on esoteric knowledge can lead to unnecessary claims of intellectual property. Its people who come and act coy and get the info and then suddenly make claims. Like the story of Panchagavya, which is used in EVERY religious function and in ayurveda, being attempted to be patented for its well known peoperties. There was attempt by the west (including a US Government department) to attemp to patent Neem. I feel now the attention has been turned to esoteric knowledge. Hence all the more reason to be wary of kowledge miners. Most are genuine seekers but when ppl claim all sorts of lineages and "sell" consultations, one has to be careful. Devi Bhakta <devi_bhakta wrote: Hi Caitlin: Just to clarify, Alexandra Kafka did not write that "revelation" I excerpted in my last post; it was a third party, a woman who has since left the group. She claimed to be a friend or acquaintance of Chandra and Erin, and told me that the ID alexandra108 (i.e. "Alexandra Kafka") was their alter ego. This raised some eyebrows, since alexandra108 has a strange habit of posting brief, extremely esoteric questions; then not responding to replies (just "harvesting" them, I assume); then disappearing until her next question. Such Netiquette-challenged behavior has caused many members (as you can see in this thread) to grow weary of this person and suspicious of her motives, whatever they may be. The calimed connection between "Alexandra Kafka" and Chandra Alexandre appeared to make sense at first glance -- because Alexandre is one of the more prominent "mix and match" practitioners, borrowing from several different traditions, preserving many outward trappings and symbols of Shaktism, but comparatively little of its authentic, traditional content. As MSBauju noted and as you know, Alexandre appears to be quite well versed in Shakta lore and thus (it seemed to us) would probably be entirely capable of coming up with the sorts of esoteric questions that alexandra108/Kafka typically posts. As I said, all of these "revelations" happened last October, and we made no big deal of it. Just noted the connection and carried on. The problem arose last week when this Kafka began -- in this and several other forums -- aggressively circling in on Sriyantra itself, the sanctum sanctorum of Shaktism, which is generally not delved into too deeply without initiation and the close guidance of a guru. My interpretation of Kochu's (and others') objection would be this: While it is fine, even complimentary in a way to "borrow" South Asian and Shakta imagery to illustrate or reinforce some "new tradition" (oxymoron?), as Chandra Alexandre appears to be doing, here is a certain point where Shakta/ Srividya/ Kaula practice reaches a critical mass and power, and cannot too lightly (or safely, or respectfully) be removed from their original context to serve whatever spiritual/ social/ environmental/ political causes the "borrower" wishes to use them for. Because at bottom, Shaktism is extremely grounded in the material, tangible universe -- more oriented toward practice and quantifiable results than theory and speculative discussion. The shaktis of Sriyantra are unspeakably powerful and the techniques used to access and worship them are simply not safe or appropriate for those lacking proper training and guidance. One can very literally, very grievously harm oneself or others, and/or affect the flow of energy in important world processes. It's not a "system of symbolism" to be played with or "adapted" for the edification/"empowerment" of new audiences. At its highest levels, one must meet Shaktism on its own terms. If the devotee is not willing to do so, s/he quite truly ought to stay away from Sriyantra, except on the most superficial levels. Listen, we are really, truly not snobs here; that's not the thing. Our Khadgamala Stotra presentation (click on the front-page photo for details) is perhaps the most in-depth Sriyantra pooja ever made easily available and accessible to the general public. Many would say (and have said) that we have gone too far by offering it. However, even "religious liberals" like ourselves have to draw the line somewhere. If that line incorrectly pointed to Chandra Alexandre, then she has my sincerest apologies. Whomever Alexandra Kafka may be, however, ought to take note. Aum MAtangyai NamaH , "Caitlin" <caitlinbp@g...> wrote: > > > One more thing. > > I've sent some of the emails to Erin, since Kafka was writing about > her, and she may be able to clear up some of this mess. > Best, > Caitlin / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Dear Erin: I appreciate your comments, and please be assured that I do not take offense at them. Likewise, I hope you will not take offense at my further questions ... *** Chandra has dedicated her life to the Kaula, and to making that accessible to the West in a safe, practical and respectful way. *** I must admit that this seems an odd statement to me. Shaktism and Srividya are what they are, and are already accessible to all devotees at their appropriate level. Temples have been established by Gurus of qualified lineages throughout the West. English is the lingua franca of India, and spoken fluently by most major Gurus in the authentic traditions. Most of the major Shakta texts have long since been available in English translation. So I guess my question would be, what does Chandra offer that is more "safe, practical and respectful" than the received wisdom and teaching of the established Kaula lineages? If she has "dedicated her life to the Kaula," why does she feel the necessity to augment and blend it with Wicca and whatnot? Does she feel that Kaula is insufficient on its own? Her biography seems to make a great deal of her academic credentials, her qualifications as a paid consultant or counselor, and the tax-exempt status of the "religion" she has established. But does she have an authentic Guru who is guiding her is her mission to make Shaktism more palatable (as she appears to feel is necessary) to her audience? Does she hold herself out as Guru to those who join her? Or does the religion she's created reject the Guru system? *** Because we are in a Western context, we must teach things in a Western context, and translate them, as it were, from the Indian paradigm. *** Must you? That was certainly true when Swami Vivekananda arrived in the United States in 1893, when Eastern philosophy was barely known outside rarified intellectual cliques like the Transcendentalists. But is it still true today? There has been a substantial scholarly and religious literature readily available in English since the days of Woodroffe, and the amount of material readily available today (particularly since the advent of the Internet) as just vast. In addition, anyone who is deeply dedicated to Shakta will eventually gravitate toward learning Sanskrit (just as devout Jews will learn Hebrew, devout Roman Catholics will learn Latin or Aramaic, and devout Muslims will learn Arabic) -- at which point, the accumulated wisdom of the path opens up to them, a vast lamp of inner illumination, ready to be ignited by the grace of Guru and Devi. Is it Chandra's hope that the entrant into her religion will eventually be drawn to authentic Shakta? or to Wicca? Or does she feel that the system she has constructed is a self-contained improvement on both, and requires neither? *** Practices are taught carefully and gradually, and participants are fully grounded in the knowledge behind the practice, and then in the practices themselves, and each level of initiation brings a deeper level of practice. *** This sounds like the method of authentic Shakta. But is it in substance or in form only? Does initiation = diksha; i.e. is it an intentional transmission of the lineage's wisdom from guru to shishya? Or is it some outward ceremony designed by Chandra herself? Is it more like graduating to the next grade in school, where after a certain amount of time and learning a certain number of things you earn the right to promotion? Does everyone who wants the next level of initiation get it after a certain period? *** Make no mistake, we are not a group of cloud chasing, smurf- worshipper women singing kumbaya and dabbling in Indian mysticism! *** *lol* The cloud-chasing, Smurf-worshipping, Kumbaya-singing part I would never accuse you of. In fact, it is the very specific claims and information on the site that made me (personally) wonder what is going on there? There is certainly a well-presented system, and I am no one to question the obvious intellectual firepower behind it all. You are extremely well-spoken and Chandra is as well, based on the writings at her website. Please know that I am really, truly not trying to mock you or denigrate your efforts or intelligence or sincerity. I am just trying to "get it" -- and (as my comments above might illustrate) I am not sure that I do. *** In fact, the organization and tradition was founded to counteract the co-opting and denigrating of these powerful goddesses in the West, and provide an alternative that gave a true honoring. *** Maybe this is the crux of things? Who is co-opting and denigrating these devis? (Who can even touch them?) Are you trying to counteract the misuse of terms like "Tantric" as marketing come-on's, and the image of Ganesh on toilet seats and Lakshmi-print underwear? If you are, then you have that in common with our group. But why does it require a new religion to accomplish this? Why the blending? Why the Wicca? Again with no disrespect to Wicca intended: It is a holistic, self-contained path. So is Shakta. Why the need to mix 'n' match? Was it just Chandra's personal taste as it evolved? Or is there a spiritual reason for it? *** We are proponents of a powerfully embodied spirituality. In that vein, we do not believe that spirituality is separate from the world at large. *** Again, this is in complete agreement with authentic, traditional Shakta systems. *** I am grateful for this forum, and for your openness and honesty. *** Thank you for your kind words, and for your open honesty as well. I thank you very much for your particpation and I hope you will see fit to particpate in the group regularly. Aum MAtangyai NamaH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Hi again, > I appreciate your comments, and please be assured that I do not take > offense at them. Likewise, I hope you will not take offense at my > further questions ... > None taken at all. I'm happy to answer questions as best I can. > So I guess my question would be, what does Chandra offer that is > more "safe, practical and respectful" than the received wisdom and > teaching of the established Kaula lineages? If she has "dedicated > her life to the Kaula," why does she feel the necessity to augment > and blend it with Wicca and whatnot? Does she feel that Kaula is > insufficient on its own? > I don't think the question is whether she or any of us feel that Kaula is "insufficient" on its own, or that anything is 'more' or 'less' this or that. It is simply a different way of approaching it that has proven easier or simpler for many Westerners to use, both in conjunction with their existing practices, as well as being a bridge for their progression onto the Shakta path, and for those who may not have even known the goddess before, but feel deeply drawn to the path upon experiencing our pujas, or for Westerners who have no idea what Shakta is, but know that they love Maa. To tell you the truth, it's so based in experience, that it's difficult to put into words, or encapsulate in just a few words, so I apologize at the length of this email! The system she has created, and which continues to evolve, finds a place between Wicca/witchcraft and Shakta Tantra. Who we reach and who our tradition speaks to are those people for whom the Craft may have been a path that they've followed, but who feel drawn to the goddesses of the Hindu tradition. Although Woodroffe/Avalon and others have translated the texts of Tantra, and beautifully so, the philosophy can be difficult for Western minds to grasp. I'm not sure where you are from, but certainly you must know the Western and Eastern paradigms are dramatically different, and it's difficult to really understand the Eastern mindset and philosophy unless you go through some sort of immersion process, ideally by spending some time in India. Same languages don't mean same philosophies, mindsets or automatic ways of looking at the world (my partner is English, I am American, and even we have experienced trouble in our relationship due to purely cultural differences in relating to each other). In fact, many Western practitioners do want to worship Indian goddesses, but aren't sure how, and don't really know where to begin. There aren't a lot of authentic teachers of the Shakta path here. In addition, the Hindu tradition (and particularly Tantra) is a long and extremely complex one, and is very difficult to wrap your head around from a Western perspective, where the culture is suffused with a particular concept of God that is difficult to break away from. Just trying to explain to newcomers the concepts of Hindu mythology, which is extremely complex, can be difficult. "How can Kali be Parvati? They're so different!" or "How can Kali have so many different origin myths?" people ask me. We come from a culture of no debate, no discussion, this is what you must believe, there is only one God and he has one way of being manifest in the world, this is the ONE truth that you must believe or you're going to hell, end of story. How remarkably different from Indian culture! Much of the understanding is only gained with time and patience, as well as study and practice (as anything). To the point, the path we walk is a sort of middle path that embraces the spiritual-political feminist philosophies of the West, as well as the spiritual philosophies of Shakta Tantra in the East. As you say, those who feel very strongly drawn to this subject will learn Sanskrit and will take care to dive deeper into it (such as Chandra and myself - and you probably know that to learn Sanskrit, you REALLY have to want to learn it... it's by far the most difficult language I've learned - German, French and Hebrew seem easy now by comparison). In a way, we provide a means through which they can discover if the Shakta path is one they care to walk. For some, it is a way of finding out how they as witches or Western practitioners can honor Indian goddesses in appropriate ways. For others, it is the beginning of a long journey that may lead them to eventually finding a guru and learning Sanskrit, or perhaps living in India and immersing themselves in the culture. We see ourselves as a bridge between East and West, and we believe that each person has a level of involvement that is appropriate for them. For instance, when we teach Kali puja (and I mean our version of Kali puja), the response we typically get is that it is very powerful for people on an individual level, and that they feel like they are able to really connect with Devi. Of course, you and I know that Devi is everywhere, all the time, in all things, even ourselves, as we are all part of the universal oneness, but it's the process of training the body and the mind to pay attention that's the hard part. As I said before, we provide a middle path that helps to train willing participants in a spiritual discipline that brings together ancient practices from the Western path as well as the Eastern path, where we have found that those paths fit together. Those who wish to further their study are encouraged to do so, and those who wish to simply sit in circle and sing kirtan and participate in puja are also encouraged to do so, as well. Those who wish to work with Kali or other forms of Devi, as well as Western or other dark goddesses (the ancient British goddess Sul comes to mind, who is very much like Kali, though distinct and different), are also encouraged. Each person has a path that works for them, and we are here to help guide those who feel drawn to Devi at whatever level or from whichever perspective they've come from. We work on providing authentic and accurate information and practice to these seekers. > Her biography seems to make a great deal of her academic > credentials, her qualifications as a paid consultant or counselor, > and the tax-exempt status of the "religion" she has established. But > does she have an authentic Guru who is guiding her is her mission to > make Shaktism more palatable (as she appears to feel is necessary) > to her audience? Does she hold herself out as Guru to those who join > her? Or does the religion she's created reject the Guru system? > I should mention that the payments for counseling are donations to the mandir. All proceeds from our services go toward our temple fund, as we are working on creating a public devi mandir in San Francisco - a very expensive venture, as real estate rental and purchase is expensive here. In addition, the Western mindset generally requires authentication of some sort - where did this person study? What makes them so special? Chandra does have an impressive background, but so do many in our community, and if you met Chandra, you would realize that she is ultimately an enormously humble individual who strives to maintain an egalitarian structure amongst all who practice in the tradition. She believes (I think rightly) that any teacher learns as much (if not more) from the student as the student learns from the teacher, and it shows in her relating to the group. It's one of the reasons I deeply love and respect her as a friend and teacher. Second, Chandra does have teachers in India who have guided her. I cannot speak for her, obviously, but as I stated earlier, Shyam is an invaluable resource to her and to the organization. Again, I do not know that she would refer to him as her "guru," though some may see it that way. Certainly, he is her respected teacher. As I said before, he considers her as his daughter, and she is effectively a part of his family now. Chandra explicitly does not hold herself out as a guru. Our system is egalitarian in nature, and does not require or request participants to pledge to a guru. We believe that the pledge is to one's self and one's own spiritual path, and that the ultimate deepening of the knowledge of the self, unlocking the deep wisdom within and deeply realizing the interconnectedness of all things, is the goal. This is, of course, part of the Western component, but is also compatible with Eastern philosophy. That being said, we do respect other systems, and the wisdom that has been passed down through gurus throughout the ages. > *** Because we are in a Western context, we must teach things in a > Western context, and translate them, as it were, from the Indian > paradigm. *** > > Must you? That was certainly true when Swami Vivekananda arrived in > the United States in 1893, when Eastern philosophy was barely known > outside rarified intellectual cliques like the Transcendentalists. > But is it still true today? I absolutely think it is still true today. The system is incredibly complicated and often intimidating to Westerners. (and in many cases has been devolved into popular yoga studios and the like that don't really teach the wisdom behind the practice, just offer the trappings). In particular, many Westerners feel that if they are not Indian, they cannot be Hindus (and many Hindu Indians feel the same way about Westerners becoming Hindus - a popular, though not universal, notion is that one must be born a Hindu). Our community serves a population that desires to access this material and learn about it from a qualified teacher, but do not necessarily wish to become Hindus. We do not convert people to Hinduism. I think some use us as a jumping-off point to dive deeper into the material, and others find our tradition to be just the right thing. Others discover it's not really what they're looking for, but appreciate the experience. > In addition, anyone who is deeply dedicated to Shakta will > eventually gravitate toward learning Sanskrit (just as devout Jews > will learn Hebrew, devout Roman Catholics will learn Latin or > Aramaic, and devout Muslims will learn Arabic) -- at which point, > the accumulated wisdom of the path opens up to them, a vast lamp of > inner illumination, ready to be ignited by the grace of Guru and > Devi. Is it Chandra's hope that the entrant into her religion will > eventually be drawn to authentic Shakta? or to Wicca? Or does she > feel that the system she has constructed is a self-contained > improvement on both, and requires neither? > I don't think any of us see Sha'can as an "improvement" on either religion. Rather, it is a bridge between them, and it is unique. It is simply one way for Westerners to access Shakta in their own spiritual language. What we do, in essence, is use the phenominological similarities between the two religions to build a bridge for Westerners to the Shakta path. In fact, much of modern Wiccan ritual comes from Hermetic ritual, which is an amalgam of various ritual traditions, including Hindu Tantra. We pick up on those connecting threads and weave them together. Sha'can is a self-contained tradition, but it draws heavily on Shakta Tantra, and we are Kaula in the sense that we are part of the larger "family," and have received the lineage teachings. Again, it is not an "improvement," but simply another way to access it that may make more sense for some Western practitioners. A big difference is that we are also feminists, and one focus of ours is embracing the feminine divine, as well as depathologizing the masculine divine - all of which is completely and utterly radical in the West. There is no universally accepted goddess in the West, and in fact, the goddess is hated in much of Western culture (one of the reasons that we encourage recitation of the sappodhara mantra as a regular practice), and is indicative of the continued subjugation and objectification of women in our culture. (I believe it was Mary Daly who said of the Western Judeo-Christian paradigm, "if God is male, then male is God.") This is part of what I mean when I say that we see no distinction between the spiritual and the political. Many feminists in India, for instance, have rejected their spiritual traditions because traditional Hinduism (including Tantra) has propitiated the subjugation of women through strict gender roles, tradition, goddess imagery, etc. Chandra has worked with Indian feminists, however, who believe that Devi can be used to empower women. Sha'can works from this perspective, as well, which can be rare when one is looking for traditional teachers of Shakta. > This sounds like the method of authentic Shakta. But is it in > substance or in form only? Does initiation = diksha; i.e. is it an > intentional transmission of the lineage's wisdom from guru to > shishya? Or is it some outward ceremony designed by Chandra herself? > Is it more like graduating to the next grade in school, where after > a certain amount of time and learning a certain number of things you > earn the right to promotion? Does everyone who wants the next level > of initiation get it after a certain period? > I would say of my own experience that it is emphatically in substance and in form, though along with the Shakta tradition, we also transmit the teachings of the Western goddess tradition, because we believe that both hold power for the Western practitioner. Initiation does equal diksha in a sense. I can't speak about the initiation ritual, for perhaps obvious reasons. However, like the tradition itself, it blends the intentional transmission with the Western tradition's oath to the self, and the practitioner's own path. This initiation is all that is required to be a full member of the tradition. The gradual process of progression and ordination within the structure of the organization is again the Western influence. Not everyone will progress. Not everyone will want to. Those who are sincere, and who do the inner and outer work, and exhibit the signs that they are ready to progress to the next level will certainly do so. If participants do not do these things, and they are not ready, then they will not receive initiation. We don't believe in simply initiating people because they feel entitled to it. > I am just trying to "get it" -- and (as my comments above > might illustrate) I am not sure that I do. > Thank you for your kind words. It's difficult, I think, for some people to "get" our system for a lot of reasons until they really experience it. For one, I think there have been Western feminists who have borrowed Kali and other goddesses as symbols of feminine power, without really delving in, doing the research, and finding the real information, and the real spiritual teachings behind it all. One of the things that always really disturbs me is the lack of understanding even in her name - mistaking Kali (the goddess) and kali ("terrible"), which, if you know Sanskrit, you will recognize is completely ridiculous, as they are completely unrelated words. It's sloppy scholarship. And I think there is a lot of sloppy spiritual work that has been done. Also, in the Western goddess spirituality movement, there is a tremendous amount of fear surrounding certain Indian goddesses, particularly Kali in her various forms, as well as even Durga. Carol Christ in her book "Rebirth of the Goddess" completely misses the point when she says that we shouldn't honor warrior goddesses, and at a recent convention, where I gave lectures on Kali Puja as well as the Dark Goddess around the world, I heard many, many people spreading misinformation and fear around Kali and other powerful dark goddesses. I have heard stories from members of our community who have talked to Indians about Kali puja, and if they are not from certain areas where Kali is the beloved mother (specifically, Bengal, Assam or Orissa), they are shunned, or told that "Kali is like when you take a shit - it's necessary, but it's dirty and you don't look at it." (that is an exact quote!) I myself was speaking to a Parsi woman at school a couple of years ago before I learned to be more judicious with who I told about my practice, and mentioned my personal interest in Shakta Tantra, and she literally ended the conversation and ran the other way! I think this is one of the reasons that SHARANYA's work is important. We provide a way for people who may be otherwise afraid to access Kali, and around here it's difficult to find Shakta practitioners or even anyone who will acknowledge Kali as a viable goddess. We have had people of all backgrounds at our pujas, including Indian Americans, who have expressed gratitude at our treatment and transformation of the ritual and the energy present. A big part of what we do in community is just provide a space for Westerners to connect with Devi, who might not otherwise feel able to do so for various reasons. So absolutely, I think this sort of middle path between East and West is important. > Maybe this is the crux of things? Who is co-opting and denigrating > these devis? (Who can even touch them?) Are you trying to counteract > the misuse of terms like "Tantric" as marketing come-on's, and the > image of Ganesh on toilet seats and Lakshmi-print underwear? If you > are, then you have that in common with our group. There abounds in the Western goddess spirituality movement a huge wave of misunderstanding around the Indian goddesses, particularly Kali. And of course, Tantra remains largely misunderstood in the West. We absolutely strive to educate on the true meanings of Tantra, and as for Ganesha toilet seats and Lakshmi underwear, I think that a strict policy of non-dualism (such as the Aghoris follow, for instance) would say that such things are not necessarily bad, but may remind us that divinity is in every place and every action, even while sitting on the toilet. I can understand how people have been offended by such things, however, in a religion that emphasizes strict purity, and that sees every image of the divine as a manifestation of the divine. This is a whole OTHER discussion, however. But why does it > require a new religion to accomplish this? Why the blending? Why the > Wicca? Again with no disrespect to Wicca intended: It is a holistic, > self-contained path. So is Shakta. Why the need to mix 'n' match? > Was it just Chandra's personal taste as it evolved? Or is there a > spiritual reason for it? > All of this information is contained in Chandra's published work. Chandra began as a witch, having been taught by her grandmother, so the Craft is in her blood. She went to India to do research for her PhD. While there, she was caught as the only Westerner in a hotel during riots in Orissa. The hotel staff protected her while her hotel room (and others) was ravaged by the rioters smashing windows with bricks, and rioting with torches and weapons. An image of Maa Tara she'd recently acquired was the only thing left unbroken in her hotel room. She took this as a sign, and went immediately the next day to a Kali temple to offer thanks for her safety throughout the ordeal. This is where she met Shyam, who had been told by his guru that he would someday meet a Westerner that he would teach the Shakta path to, who would take it to the West. Through various signs, he recognized Chandra as this person. Recognizing his offer to teach her as a rare opportunity, she spent the next several months and years studying with him. What she found was a radical transmission and practice of Shakta Tantra, and discovered that those things meshed completely with certain aspects of Western ritual. Chandra was interested, then, in taking her experience of connecting directly with Devi, and translating the formal puja to a ritual that would retain the power of the puja, while allowing participants to deal directly with the divine. Darshan becomes not just a brief moment in time to receive the blessings of goddess facilitated through a pujari, but actually becomes a moment where one can radically transform their inner selves through communing with the divine directly, where they bless Her image themselves, and present Her with their prayers and ask for Her blessings themselves, as in some Western rituals. This form of puja, then, becomes the gateway for further work with the divine, a jumping off point, or a bridge, as it were. That is what makes us different, and what makes things more accessible to Westerners. In addition, while we chant in Sanskrit, we also spend a considerable amount of time unpacking and translating the Sanskrit, and explaining the ritual components. For instance, one can sprinkle water and say "amritam kuru svaha," and chant the 7 sacred rivers mantra, but explaining what it means (and over time, revealing the layers of meaning) in simple Western terms takes time, and makes the experience deeper for the participants. Of course, the deepest levels of meaning come through practice and experience, and the unlocking of wisdom, etc. Even the common, simple chant of "jai maa!" has deeper meanings when the Hindi and Sanskrit are connected, and deep knowledge of things like this only come with time, study, and careful practice. (I like to refer to "mind knowledge" and "body knowledge," the former being what you are taught by your teacher, the latter being what you come to know through practice and thus gradual internalization of those teachings, which leads to personal revelation.) At any rate, the reason for Sha'can is that some of us feel the desire to make Shakta rituals more familiar to our Western minds. And we find that as we go deeper into it, we lose many of the Western components, and it becomes purer Shakta/Eastern ritual. As I said, Sha'can was created as a bridge, and some enjoy going on one side or the other, and some prefer to stay in the middle. We are simply there to facilitate that process, and to encourage the unfolding of the individual, and the deepening of their commitment to their own path. > > Thank you for your kind words, and for your open honesty as well. I > thank you very much for your particpation and I hope you will see > fit to particpate in the group regularly. > Again, I'm grateful for the open discussion. Jai KAlI MA! blessings and sa'ham, erin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 Wow. I go away for 10 days and come back to find Chandra Alexandre under fire. So much suspicion! I only know her tangentially but feel secure in vouching for her deep and sincere devotion to Maa Kali. I see nothing wrong with her retaining elements of her previous spiritual practice. Max -- Max Dashu Suppressed Histories Archives Global Women's History http://www.suppressedhistories.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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