Is Kali the beloved mother only or are there other aspects as well?

[Guest guest]

My greetings to this group !

 

I have been reading the discussion in this group now for a few months.

So i do know may of the regulars in the list but they don´t know me

 

I am from Germany and english is not my mother tongue so plz excuse

any errors that might creep in.

 

I think there are a people contributing here that do know quite a lot

about shakta and kaula worship.

 

But now i am a little perplexed.

I have been following the Discussion about the sha´can group and i

noted that all participiants agreed that to fear Kali is only caused

by a misunderstanding of her and her symbolism.

 

Is it your opinion that this fear of kali and her devotees is

entirely based on prejudice, and there is absolutly no reason for it?

 

Consequently if somebody is afraid of Kali and her devotees this is

only a prejudice and "hot air" ?

 

Or on the contrary are there practices connected with the worship of

Kali that are a cause for this fear and those people that fear Kali

and their devotees have a good reason for that fear?

 

My opinion is that there several reason that this fear is not a

prejudice and that there are good reasons to fear Kali and some of

the practices connected with Kali.

I recommend going the middle way and not belittle the destructive

power of the ugra devatas.

People do approach Kali as the mother to appease her destructive

power, not because she ist the mother but because a mother would not

harm her child.

There are few who dare to approach her in a different way.

But enough of this-What is you opinion?

 

Regards

[Guest guest]

There are few who dare to approach her in a different way.

But enough of this-What is you opinion?

 

Regards

 

----It's a great question, and the answer that comes to my mind is that we

humans have a limited ability called reason, intellect and rationality, which

cannot comprehend the vast nature of life itself, and that when one does plug

into the eternal present then one must do so out of the discursive state of the

mind. Ie., One must worship based on awareness itself and not based upon

relative frames of reference. Therefore, Kali is the chopping off of thought and

of the usual daily-life individual and substituting not some other concept but

the reality as it appears to the inner eyes of the heart.

 

This opening up is very scary because it's populated by all our samsaric

tendencies including self preservation and other brain stem cognition remnants.

For this reason one normally prefaces most Hindu rites with an opening

exoneration to Ganesha the brain stem/ gana/ fight and flight response portion

of the brain. Before opening ones heart to the expanse of awareness.

 

However, as I tell others, sometimes looking outside of the usual tradition can

give one the greatest vantage point from which to understand. Comparisons are

more easy when done with great contrasts, so to all kali worshippers I recommend

studying the Chod system of machig Lapdron to understand best how to use the

compassionate nature of the Great Black Wrathful Goddess. Because she really

stands as the spontaneous present beyond time, who is the untrammeled nature of

consciousness, your consciousness itself. This consciousness is great beyond

all imagination of potential, and very compassionate.

 

If you haven't felt the compassion then you need to go back to your Ramakrishna

and see where the fear crept in. Because Kali is the opposite of fear. Kali is

the certainty of the Absolute peering into maya to behold Her beloved.

[Guest guest]

Thank you for your input, i do appreciate your opinions but still

think that one should be careful before venturing to enter the realm

of the wrathful deities.

You wrote:

Therefore, Kali is the chopping off of thought and of the usual

daily-life individual and substituting not some other concept but the

reality as it appears to the inner eyes of the heart.

 

This is one aspect, but i like to remind you there are not only egos

chopped off in the rites of Kali but also Heads. Maybe more Heads

than egos? Some of these Heads are from animals some from human

beings. What do you think, coüld this possibly be a reason why some

people that are afraid of Kali have a rational fear, not neccesarily

an irrational?

>

> However, as I tell others, sometimes looking outside of the usual

tradition can give one the greatest vantage point from which to

understand. Comparisons are more easy when done with great contrasts,

so to all kali worshippers I recommend studying the Chod system of

machig Lapdron to understand best how to use the compassionate nature

of the Great Black Wrathful Goddess. Because she really stands as the

spontaneous present beyond time, who is the untrammeled nature of

consciousness, your consciousness itself. This consciousness is

great beyond all imagination of potential, and very compassionate.

 

It is interesting that you mention the chod. I have been iniitiated

into the sindhura Mandal of Vajrayogini and have as well practiced

the chod regularly.

 

It does help you in the practice of Chod if you have received

initiation into the mandala of Vajrayogini-which in fact is a red

Dakini not a black Goddess, but it is not a prerequiste for the chod.

It is not the compassion of Vajrayogini that chod is about but if it

is at all about compassion it is about your own compassion not thatr

of some goddess.

 

The main deity that is worshipped in the Chod System ist the Prajna

Paramita, transcendent Wisdom she is peaceful and is comaparble to

saraswati or gayatri. (If anybody is interested in the chod and has

question i will answer according to my limited ability of course)

 

But back to my main issue. There are aspects in the worship of

wrathful gods and godesses which are dangerous not only the Kali

Tradition but also the Chod you mentionend:

Thats why long probationary periods of careful preparation and

training under a teacher of Chod are required before one is ready to

go forth on ones own and perform this psychically demanding practice.

Chod is not for beginners on the Spiritual Path. Done properly, it

is a powerful means of cutting the root of delusions but it is also a

very dangerous exercise.

[Guest guest]

I am interested in Chod. Is there any particular book you recommend?

Are you familiar with Tsultrim Allione?

 

BTW you may be interested in in the God/punishment thread; earlier

this morning I posted what I've read of Machig Lapdron's teachings.

Her name has come up before on this message board, too. I'd be

interested to hear your thoughts after reading it.

 

I think Kochu's advice re meditating and allowing the mind to become

still (in the God/punishment thread) is excellent for dealing with

your question/concern. There is also a book called The Dark Side of

the Light Chasers by Debbie Ford, who has worked with Deepak Chopra,

that addresses the fearful, killing tendencies of others, and how to

recognize/own the seeds of those tendencies within instead of to

just see/project those "monster" tendencies onto others.

 

People do teach and learn and practice physical, emotional, and

psychological maiming and killing rituals, using deities others

utilize to teach and learn and practice life-giving, higher-

consciousness-raising rituals. I think sadhana is about staying

centered, and what can help keep you centered - able to return to

center - because yes, others are misguided, including those who call

themselves "enlightened."

 

 

, "mahahradanatha"

<mahahradanatha> wrote:

>

>

> Thank you for your input, i do appreciate your opinions but still

> think that one should be careful before venturing to enter the

realm

> of the wrathful deities.

> You wrote:

> Therefore, Kali is the chopping off of thought and of the usual

> daily-life individual and substituting not some other concept but

the

> reality as it appears to the inner eyes of the heart.

>

> This is one aspect, but i like to remind you there are not only

egos

> chopped off in the rites of Kali but also Heads. Maybe more Heads

> than egos? Some of these Heads are from animals some from human

> beings. What do you think, coüld this possibly be a reason why

some

> people that are afraid of Kali have a rational fear, not

neccesarily

> an irrational?

> >

>

> > However, as I tell others, sometimes looking outside of the

usual

> tradition can give one the greatest vantage point from which to

> understand. Comparisons are more easy when done with great

contrasts,

> so to all kali worshippers I recommend studying the Chod system of

> machig Lapdron to understand best how to use the compassionate

nature

> of the Great Black Wrathful Goddess. Because she really stands as

the

> spontaneous present beyond time, who is the untrammeled nature of

> consciousness, your consciousness itself. This consciousness is

> great beyond all imagination of potential, and very compassionate.

>

> It is interesting that you mention the chod. I have been

iniitiated

> into the sindhura Mandal of Vajrayogini and have as well practiced

> the chod regularly.

>

> It does help you in the practice of Chod if you have received

> initiation into the mandala of Vajrayogini-which in fact is a red

> Dakini not a black Goddess, but it is not a prerequiste for the

chod.

> It is not the compassion of Vajrayogini that chod is about but if

it

> is at all about compassion it is about your own compassion not

thatr

> of some goddess.

>

> The main deity that is worshipped in the Chod System ist the

Prajna

> Paramita, transcendent Wisdom she is peaceful and is comaparble to

> saraswati or gayatri. (If anybody is interested in the chod and

has

> question i will answer according to my limited ability of course)

>

> But back to my main issue. There are aspects in the worship of

> wrathful gods and godesses which are dangerous not only the Kali

> Tradition but also the Chod you mentionend:

> Thats why long probationary periods of careful preparation and

> training under a teacher of Chod are required before one is ready

to

> go forth on ones own and perform this psychically demanding

practice.

> Chod is not for beginners on the Spiritual Path. Done properly,

it

> is a powerful means of cutting the root of delusions but it is

also a

> very dangerous exercise.

[Guest guest]

Hello,

 

I have not followed the entire thread, so pardon me if what i am about to say is

out of context ..

 

Per the teachings of sri ramakrishna paramahamsa, there are two ways to approach

Kali the divine mother .. a) is like a lover b) is like a child ... the first

one is far more difficult to follow but the second one is relatively easier and

more like the method followed by Sri ramakrishna paramahamsa himself!

 

Kali obviously has all aspects in herself ... she is neutral to either good or

bad .. at the same time it is her will that people who are in delusion are to be

in delusion .. it is also her will and wish as to how the universe should move

... if you try to accept her will and approach her like her child she will cut

your ego and take the responsibilty of guiding you to herself ...

 

what is chod all about?

 

mahahradanatha <mahahradanatha wrote:

 

 

Thank you for your input, i do appreciate your opinions but still

think that one should be careful before venturing to enter the realm

of the wrathful deities.

You wrote:

Therefore, Kali is the chopping off of thought and of the usual

daily-life individual and substituting not some other concept but the

reality as it appears to the inner eyes of the heart.

[Guest guest]

>

> what is chod all about?

 

Chod is a practice traditionally practiced by Yogis who wander around

and who own nothing in which they prepare their own body as an

offering to all sentient beings.

 

Chod literally translated from the tibetan language means "cutting"

the chod i have been practicing is called the "kusali tsog sog"

which means translated: "A beggars method of accumulating merit"

 

A beggar has nothing to give and no means to accumulate good karma by

giving alms. The Chod offering allows even a beggar to accumulate

merit and destroy the bad karma and hindrances to achieve

enlightenment.

 

Traditionaly the Chod is practised in cementarys and haunted place

because the offering is not only to the buddhas and peaceful deities

and gurus but also to the demons and evil spirits which will be

called to attend the feast also.

 

Properly performed it has also the following effects. One will be

free from obstacles, will overcome the attachment to the body, so

neither human nor non human beings can harm you you will not be

affected by destructive mantras of others and also save from the

harmful effects of fire wind and other elements.

 

There are many different ways chod can be practised-they range from

small prayers and visualisation that are done in less tha a minute to

elaborate rituals involving dance, the use of a human thighbone

trumpet a tent made of human skin and a special drum and elaborate

mantaras and songs that have to be chanted.

The proper chod also requires that the yogi is able to actually leave

the human body through the top of the head an enter the expanse of

the sky.

This is done be the use of a secret mantra and meditation process.

After leaving his body in the form of the red or black vajrayogini he

is preparing it to be consumed by the deities and demons.

 

I have myself seen very sick people that were near to death overcame

that state to become healthy again because the chod was practised on

their behalf.

The practioners of chod are very sought after if there is an epidmic

for their powers to subdue sickness. They also perform the chod to

help deceased people and perform at funerals.

But the main reason fo the practice is to achieve moksha for

themselves, not only to exorcise and subdue evil spirits.

 

The chod practice is a yogic practice that aims not only to get

supernatural powers by subdueing evil spirits but in the words of

Machig labdron is done for attaining moksha:

 

Once the yogini has recognized the non-difference of inner and outer

phenomena, after the psychic energy (prana-vayu) has entered and

started to rise up the central nervous system (avadhuti/sushumna),

then she will begin to experience extraordinary states of ecstasy and

[eventually] the Clear Light itself. Knowledge of the three times,

and clairvoyant perception of events near and far, will begin to

emerge. Having attained the uncreate Clear Light, then the yogini

will acquire an ability of mind to aid vast numbers of sentient

beings everywhere... The instruction lineage that explains how to

accomplish this is that called the Chöd of Mahamudra."