Relationships

[Guest guest]

Here is an article I think is very good that addresses the issue of

using other people as "means to an end," a topic that came up in an

on-board exchange recently (the Machig Lapdron and/or related

subjects).

 

http://www.commonground.ca/iss/0408157/tolle.shtml

 

The author of this article is Eckhart Tolle, who had a huge

bestseller with his book The Power of Now. This article contains

information along the same lines as that book, coming from his

follow-up Stillness Speaks.

 

To all Shakti Sadhana members: If you read the article, I would be

interested in your thoughts as to whether the information given in

this article conflicts with Hinduism and Shakta views, or whether

there is more common ground than conflict.

[Guest guest]

Dear Mary,

 

I almost wanted to post on message on Love and relationships last

week with the intention of discussin that topic with the group.

I would like to post it now ....

I am sure this message would be close to the current topic ...

 

A simple definition of self-realization is coming/being to/in a

stage where there is no ego at all - meaning there is no "I". When

we chose a Deity or a Guru as our God/Goddess, we/I try to reach

that stage by giving credit to Him/Her not to "ourselves/I/ego" -

like Rama gave me this ( "I" did not get it myself), Rama made me do

this (not "I" did it again) etc, we want to cut our "I" this way. So

finally we reach a stage when everythin in this world would be

percieve as a form of our choses God/Godess.

I always wondered if the same principle can be applied to a human

being (the diff btw this person and our chosen Gurus is that our

mind says that our Guru is all powerful but our loved ones are no

diff than us or not all powerful).

Is self realization possible by unconditionally loving a human

being, without expecting any benefit from that person? We would be

doing the same thing, loving that person and not expecting anything

in return - there is no "I", only the other person remains. (As in

Karma yoga it is doing our activites without expecting anything, for

the sake of karma itself). After many stages, similar to Advaita (as

we see our Diety/Guru in all animate and inanimate things), can we

come to a stage where our "loved ones" will only be seen in whatever

we see (including ourselves) - is this not advaita - only one

remains and there is no duality.

I feel this is possible. I tried to discuss the same issue with two

of my spiritual friends - one agreed and another disagreed.

There is a part in Yoga Vasishta called Indrahalyopakyanam which is

abt love. The pair in that story is Indra (not frm Heaven but a

normal human) and Ahalya. Their love starts from illicit

relationship but reaches a stage where for Indra everything in this

world seems like Ahalya (Ahalya mayam evam Jagat) and for Ahalya it

is the opposite. They do not even feel physical pain or pleasure,

but they end up becoming deers... More abt this in further emails.

Sai.

 

, "Mary Ann"

<buttercookie61> wrote:

>

> Here is an article I think is very good that addresses the issue

of

> using other people as "means to an end," a topic that came up in

an

> on-board exchange recently (the Machig Lapdron and/or related

> subjects).

>

> http://www.commonground.ca/iss/0408157/tolle.shtml

>

> The author of this article is Eckhart Tolle, who had a huge

> bestseller with his book The Power of Now. This article contains

> information along the same lines as that book, coming from his

> follow-up Stillness Speaks.

>

> To all Shakti Sadhana members: If you read the article, I would

be

> interested in your thoughts as to whether the information given in

> this article conflicts with Hinduism and Shakta views, or whether

> there is more common ground than conflict.

[Guest guest]

Thank you for posting your comments on this topic. I agree; I think

it is possible to love human beings unconditionally. In the Tolle

article I posted, he's advocating space in not judging others, and

letting go of expectations. I have noticed my ability to allow such

space increases when my interactions with certain people who

challenge me decrease, meaning it's a lot easier not to expect

things when people are farther away.

 

I have been reading a book called The Creative Use Of Emotion that

you might find interesting. It is by Swami Rama and Swami Ajaya. It

is very clear in its description of the obstacles to unconditional

love, using parent-child relations for a very good example. I have

found that reading it assists me in creating the space for that

unconditional love. The truth is so clearly stated that it's

meditative to read it. That's how I feel about Tolle's article, too.

 

I posted excerpts from the Creative Use of Emotion on this message

board long ago, but I was rereading the book this weekend and it

really is a wonderful book. I may post more from it. What I find

especially valuable in it is it discusses how to love others and set

proper limits, how not let yourself be mistreated, and how setting

and respecting your boundaries by what genuinely works for the

person you are as you are is the way to love others (and yourself)

unconditionally.

 

I look forward to reading more from you on this topic.

 

 

, "saikumar_durga"

<saikumar_durga> wrote:

>

> Dear Mary,

>

> I almost wanted to post on message on Love and relationships last

> week with the intention of discussin that topic with the group.

> I would like to post it now ....

> I am sure this message would be close to the current topic ...

>

> A simple definition of self-realization is coming/being to/in a

> stage where there is no ego at all - meaning there is no "I". When

> we chose a Deity or a Guru as our God/Goddess, we/I try to reach

> that stage by giving credit to Him/Her not to "ourselves/I/ego" -

> like Rama gave me this ( "I" did not get it myself), Rama made me

do

> this (not "I" did it again) etc, we want to cut our "I" this way.

So

> finally we reach a stage when everythin in this world would be

> percieve as a form of our choses God/Godess.

> I always wondered if the same principle can be applied to a human

> being (the diff btw this person and our chosen Gurus is that our

> mind says that our Guru is all powerful but our loved ones are no

> diff than us or not all powerful).

> Is self realization possible by unconditionally loving a human

> being, without expecting any benefit from that person? We would be

> doing the same thing, loving that person and not expecting

anything

> in return - there is no "I", only the other person remains. (As in

> Karma yoga it is doing our activites without expecting anything,

for

> the sake of karma itself). After many stages, similar to Advaita

(as

> we see our Diety/Guru in all animate and inanimate things), can we

> come to a stage where our "loved ones" will only be seen in

whatever

> we see (including ourselves) - is this not advaita - only one

> remains and there is no duality.

> I feel this is possible. I tried to discuss the same issue with

two

> of my spiritual friends - one agreed and another disagreed.

> There is a part in Yoga Vasishta called Indrahalyopakyanam which

is

> abt love. The pair in that story is Indra (not frm Heaven but a

> normal human) and Ahalya. Their love starts from illicit

> relationship but reaches a stage where for Indra everything in

this

> world seems like Ahalya (Ahalya mayam evam Jagat) and for Ahalya

it

> is the opposite. They do not even feel physical pain or pleasure,

> but they end up becoming deers... More abt this in further

emails.

> Sai.

>

> , "Mary Ann"

> <buttercookie61> wrote:

> >

> > Here is an article I think is very good that addresses the issue

> of

> > using other people as "means to an end," a topic that came up in

> an

> > on-board exchange recently (the Machig Lapdron and/or related

> > subjects).

> >

> > http://www.commonground.ca/iss/0408157/tolle.shtml

> >

> > The author of this article is Eckhart Tolle, who had a huge

> > bestseller with his book The Power of Now. This article contains

> > information along the same lines as that book, coming from his

> > follow-up Stillness Speaks.

> >

> > To all Shakti Sadhana members: If you read the article, I would

> be

> > interested in your thoughts as to whether the information given

in

> > this article conflicts with Hinduism and Shakta views, or

whether

> > there is more common ground than conflict.

[Guest guest]

why do you want to be God/Godess?

if you want to -be- , then your devotion is not pure....

if it is not pure, then you can not -be-

if you leave -I- then you have to leave everything....

if you leave everything for purpose, then it will not be - the way-

[Guest guest]

Dear Cella:

 

What you say is true of certain bhakti-centered systems, yes; but it

is not true in the universal absolute sense you suggest.

 

Most Hindu Tantric systems, for example, will advocate "becoming" the

deity as an integral component of one's sadhana. This does not imply

a lack of purity, but rather a commitment to purification. Likewise,

the act of becoming the deity as well as s/he who worships the deity

does not express a reluctance to "leave 'I'," as you put it. On the

contrary, it is a systematic replacement of the individual with the

cosmic, the limited with the limitless, the microcosm with the

macrocosm.

 

Likewise sense of purpose or goal in one's sadhana does not, in

itself, negate the validity of that sadhana, as you seem to be

suggesting. Rather, it is the underlying nature or purpose of that

goal (broadly, whether it is ultimately selfish or selfless) that

mark the value of the sadhak's efforts.

 

I am not saying that your opinion is wrong. It is right for the path

you prescribe. But the path you prescribe is not exclusive, and the

truth you posit is not universal.

 

DB

 

 

, "cella" <cella@t...> wrote:

>

> why do you want to be God/Godess?

> if you want to -be- , then your devotion is not pure....

> if it is not pure, then you can not -be-

> if you leave -I- then you have to leave everything....

> if you leave everything for purpose, then it will not be - the way-

[Guest guest]

I would like to second this, and add the ancient maxim:

 

sivo bhutva sivam yajet

 

"Worship Shiva by becoming Shiva."

 

 

sa'ham,

erin

 

>

> Most Hindu Tantric systems, for example, will advocate "becoming" the

> deity as an integral component of one's sadhana. This does not imply

> a lack of purity, but rather a commitment to purification. Likewise,

> the act of becoming the deity as well as s/he who worships the deity

> does not express a reluctance to "leave 'I'," as you put it. On the

> contrary, it is a systematic replacement of the individual with the

> cosmic, the limited with the limitless, the microcosm with the

> macrocosm.

>

[Guest guest]

I have wanted to post this for a couple of days:

 

"When a mountain stream overflows and becomes a torrent of

floodwater carrying debris, a man or woman who wants to get across

might think, 'What is the safest way to cross this floodwater?'

Assessing the situation, she may decide to gather branches and

grasses, construct a raft and use it to get to the other side. But,

after arriving on the other side, she thinks, 'I spent a lot of time

and energy building this raft. It is a prized possession, and I will

carry it with me as I continue on my journey.' ... She could have

thought, 'This raft helped me get across the water safely. Now I

will leave it at the water's edge for someone else to use the same

way.' The Buddha taught: "...let go of all the true teachings, not

to mention the teachings that are not true."

 

Also, one person's raft may not function as a safe craft for another

person. Each to her/his own.

 

And I came across this today:

 

"What if we smashed the mirrors and saw our true face? What if we

left the sacred books to the worms and found our True Mind? What if

we burned the wooden Buddhas? Gave the stone Buddhas back to the

mountains? Dispersed the gurus with a great laugh and discovered the

path we had always been on?" -- Elsa Gidlow

 

 

 

, Erin Johansen

<erin.johansen@g...> wrote:

>

> I would like to second this, and add the ancient maxim:

>

> sivo bhutva sivam yajet

>

> "Worship Shiva by becoming Shiva."

>

>

> sa'ham,

> erin

>

>

> >

> > Most Hindu Tantric systems, for example, will

advocate "becoming" the

> > deity as an integral component of one's sadhana. This does not

imply

> > a lack of purity, but rather a commitment to purification.

Likewise,

> > the act of becoming the deity as well as s/he who worships the

deity

> > does not express a reluctance to "leave 'I'," as you put it. On

the

> > contrary, it is a systematic replacement of the individual with

the

> > cosmic, the limited with the limitless, the microcosm with the

> > macrocosm.

> >