Guest guest Posted April 12, 2005 Report Share Posted April 12, 2005 CALCUTTA, India (Wed Apr 6, 2005)(Reuters) - Indian police are investigating a complaint against an award-winning author after he wrote he had been sexually aroused in his youth by clay idols of a revered Hindu goddess, a police officer says. Police acted after a complaint was filed by a former police officer against Sunil Gangopadhyay, who has written over 250 books in the Bengali language, alleging he had hurt the sentiments of Hindus by referring to Saraswati, the goddess of learning and knowledge, in a sexual manner. "We have received a complaint and launched an investigation. Suitable action will be taken," Additional Superintendent of Police Chanchal Dutta said on Wednesday in Calcutta, the capital of communist-ruled West Bengal state. Dutta said Gangopadhyay could be charged with offending religious sentiments, which is a criminal offence punishable with up to two years imprisonment and/or a fine. "Sunil has defiled and desecrated an object held sacred and worshipped as the goddess of learning by the Hindu community, which is a crime under Indian laws," said complainant Bibhuti Bhusan Nandy, a former top federal police officer. Gangopadhyay wrote in an autobiography published two years ago that as a young man, he had been aroused by the physical beauty of the clay idols of Saraswati, and had fantasised about her form. After he won a prestigious literary award last month, given by a major Indian industrial group, a leading Bengali newspaper ran an article that quoted excerpts from Gangopadhyay's autobiography, "Ardhek Jibon" (Half Life). The excerpts included Gangopadhyay saying he had also kissed the idol of Saraswati as a young man. The author dismissed the complaint to the police. "I don't give any importance to this childish complaint," the 71- year-old writer said. "Now that this complaint has come out in the open, I will speak out more openly," he told Reuters. Gangopadhyay won the Sahitya Akademi award, the country's highest literary prize, in 1983. There have been no public protests over his remarks and Nandy said he had filed a complaint on an individual basis and was not representing any group or organisation. SOURCE: © Reuters 2005. . URL: http://today.reuters.co.uk/News/newsArticle.aspx? type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyID=2005-04- 06T074527Z_01_CAS627845_RTRIDST_0_OUKOE-INDIA-AUTHOR.XML Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2005 Report Share Posted April 12, 2005 This is interesting. I've been thinking that knowledge and creativity ARE connected with sexuality, that creative energy, including knowledge, information transmittal and embodiment, etc. are not separate from sexuality. I have read and heard that gurus experience high levels of intense emotional awareness, including sexual arousal, and that they understand how to channel this energy creatively (with some apparent slip-ups that we have all heard about, and no doubt lots we haven't heard about). This is understandable in terms of the idea that householders are choosing something somehow "less elevated" in a sense by creating families, acquiring material possessions, etc. if they (householders) are imagining these items to be solid, substantial, real unto themselves, rather than simply other manifestations, fluctuations of energy, of flow, the current of Life. I would guess the upset over the author's identification of Saraswati with sexuality would be based on if the author's sexual response was considered to be a degradation of humanity, like in snuff films, or The Man Show, something low vibrational frequency- like. Otherwise, who can say that what the author experienced naturally wasn't a high vibrational frequency such as those known to gurus? , "devi_bhakta" <devi_bhakta> wrote: > > CALCUTTA, India (Wed Apr 6, 2005)(Reuters) - Indian police are > investigating a complaint against an award-winning author after he > wrote he had been sexually aroused in his youth by clay idols of a > revered Hindu goddess, a police officer says. > > Police acted after a complaint was filed by a former police officer > against Sunil Gangopadhyay, who has written over 250 books in the > Bengali language, alleging he had hurt the sentiments of Hindus by > referring to Saraswati, the goddess of learning and knowledge, in a > sexual manner. > > "We have received a complaint and launched an investigation. > Suitable action will be taken," Additional Superintendent of Police > Chanchal Dutta said on Wednesday in Calcutta, the capital of > communist-ruled West Bengal state. > > Dutta said Gangopadhyay could be charged with offending religious > sentiments, which is a criminal offence punishable with up to two > years imprisonment and/or a fine. > > "Sunil has defiled and desecrated an object held sacred and > worshipped as the goddess of learning by the Hindu community, which > is a crime under Indian laws," said complainant Bibhuti Bhusan > Nandy, a former top federal police officer. > > Gangopadhyay wrote in an autobiography published two years ago that > as a young man, he had been aroused by the physical beauty of the > clay idols of Saraswati, and had fantasised about her form. > > After he won a prestigious literary award last month, given by a > major Indian industrial group, a leading Bengali newspaper ran an > article that quoted excerpts from Gangopadhyay's > autobiography, "Ardhek Jibon" (Half Life). > > The excerpts included Gangopadhyay saying he had also kissed the > idol of Saraswati as a young man. > > The author dismissed the complaint to the police. > > "I don't give any importance to this childish complaint," the 71- > year-old writer said. "Now that this complaint has come out in the > open, I will speak out more openly," he told Reuters. > > Gangopadhyay won the Sahitya Akademi award, the country's highest > literary prize, in 1983. > > There have been no public protests over his remarks and Nandy said > he had filed a complaint on an individual basis and was not > representing any group or organisation. > > SOURCE: © Reuters 2005. . > URL: http://today.reuters.co.uk/News/newsArticle.aspx? > type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyID=2005-04- > 06T074527Z_01_CAS627845_RTRIDST_0_OUKOE-INDIA-AUTHOR.XML Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 Gurus don't experience anything differently than anyone else. Knowing who you really are doesn't add anything to what you've already been. We are always the Self, in each moment of every life, whether or not we are directly aware of it, no matter what we may happen to be doing at the time. Low vibration, high vibration, no vibration. It all makes absolutely no difference to the Self. Sunil Gangopadhyay's revelations aren't really that unusual when you factor out the psychotic reaction that ex-cop Bhibhuti Bhusan Nandy had to them. Ajit Mookerjee, author of "Kali: The Feminine Force," confessed to me in a letter written just before he died that he knew the same sentiments about Ma Kali. I have also known intense sexual attraction to Ma Kali, and have been literally floored many times by the intensity of the ecstatic bliss which resulted. There is plenty of precedent for this in Tantric Shaktism after you filter out all the false admonishment that is installed in the literature. It is the height of absurdity that the authorities would even entertain an investigation. It just goes to show that Hindus can be just as ridiculously stupid as fundamentalist Christians in their pursuit of cultural and religious hegemony and the exercise of their exceedingly over-reaching self righteousness. http://guruphiliac.blogspot.com/2005/04/poet-sued-by-ex-cop-for-loving-god.html , "Mary Ann" <buttercookie61> wrote: > > This is interesting. I've been thinking that knowledge and > creativity ARE connected with sexuality, that creative energy, > including knowledge, information transmittal and embodiment, etc. > are not separate from sexuality. > > I have read and heard that gurus experience high levels of intense > emotional awareness, including sexual arousal, and that they > understand how to channel this energy creatively (with some apparent > slip-ups that we have all heard about, and no doubt lots we haven't > heard about). This is understandable in terms of the idea that > householders are choosing something somehow "less elevated" in a > sense by creating families, acquiring material possessions, etc. if > they (householders) are imagining these items to be solid, > substantial, real unto themselves, rather than simply other > manifestations, fluctuations of energy, of flow, the current of Life. > > I would guess the upset over the author's identification of > Saraswati with sexuality would be based on if the author's sexual > response was considered to be a degradation of humanity, like in > snuff films, or The Man Show, something low vibrational frequency- > like. Otherwise, who can say that what the author experienced > naturally wasn't a high vibrational frequency such as those known to > gurus? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 I question this portion of your post: "Gurus don't experience anything differently than > anyone else." I have seen Ammachi giving darshan, and I have seen what appear to be tremendous amounts of energy in the form of strong emotions move across her face rapidly when she is attending to people who are in great pain. And people are comforted, feel better afterward. Also, I have read in the Awaken Children series of Amma's "swoon" like states, and a report of the information that she received during one such state. While I think we all are able to receive such information, and to channel our energies in healing and wondrous ways, my understanding is that gurus are notably adept at this. If not, from your post, I ask, what's the difference between any Jill or Joe on the street and your guru? And why not adopt the Jill or Joe as your guru/teacher instead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 , "Mary Ann" <buttercookie61> wrote: > > I question this portion of your post: "Gurus don't experience > anything differently than > > anyone else." > > I have seen Ammachi giving darshan, and I have seen what appear to be > tremendous amounts of energy in the form of strong emotions move > across her face rapidly when she is attending to people who are in > great pain. That's your interpretation of your observation. She could just be making faces. It would be easy to observe those in pain and respond accordingly. She wouldn't even be dishonest in doing so. That could be the pattern of behavior which occurs when she observes a face in pain. Besides, there are plenty of healers who are not gurus who may know the same experience. You can be a guru *and* a healer, just like you can be a guru and a tennis player. They aren't necessarily connected, despite everyone wanting to believe otherwise. > And people are comforted, feel better afterward. Just as people feel better after a sugar pill, if they believe it was aspirin. > Also, I > have read in the Awaken Children series of Amma's "swoon" like states, > and a report of the information that she received during one such > state. Information from where? Plenty of people "channel." I believe most of them unwittingly make it up, and some of them knowingly do so. And the "swoon?" It could be an act just as easily as something authentic. Or, it could be a symptom of mental illness. That happens to gurus too. > While I think we all are able to receive such information, and > to channel our energies in healing and wondrous ways, my understanding > is that gurus are notably adept at this. If not, from your post, I > ask, what's the difference between any Jill or Joe on the street and > your guru? And why not adopt the Jill or Joe as your guru/teacher > instead? My guru has experiential understanding. That's what a guru does, share their thoughts in the light of self realization. All the special powers nonsense is just like faith-healing. It happens because people believe and expect it to happen. Amma is not functioning as a guru at all with her hugs. She's just being a surrogate mommy. I believe that there are a lot of people she helps, but they are helped much more by their belief in Amma's special powers than they are by anything actually magical about what she is doing.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 The information I am talking about that Amma receives - based on what I read in Awaken Children, and yes, how I interpreted that, which was someone else's account to begin with, is that she is open on levels that allow her to have insight into others; she's receptive, intuitive. This is my personal experience of Amma, however, based on the times I have met/interacted wtih her. We all do have such capacity, but not everyone allows her/himself to tune in to such a great degree. It is true that other people also contort their faces in pain when they truly recognize the pain in others, and such recognition itself may be healing, just to have that acknowledgement in or of deep pain. About our interpretations, yours about "mommy" (which I do think aptly describes how many people may embrace Amma, just basically out of need for Mommy) and mine regarding intuition, healing, etc. -- I compare this to how we are affected by great art and beauty - it awakens something in us, or touches upon things within us, a touch from which we can grow, go deeper, have realizations, etc. If you just want Mommy, or Santa, sure, go sit on their laps. , "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote: > > > , "Mary Ann" > <buttercookie61> wrote: > > > > I question this portion of your post: "Gurus don't experience > > anything differently than > > > anyone else." > > > > I have seen Ammachi giving darshan, and I have seen what appear to be > > tremendous amounts of energy in the form of strong emotions move > > across her face rapidly when she is attending to people who are in > > great pain. > > That's your interpretation of your observation. She > could just be making faces. It would be easy to observe > those in pain and respond accordingly. She wouldn't even > be dishonest in doing so. That could be the pattern of > behavior which occurs when she observes a face in pain. > > Besides, there are plenty of healers who are not gurus > who may know the same experience. You can be a guru *and* > a healer, just like you can be a guru and a tennis player. > They aren't necessarily connected, despite everyone wanting > to believe otherwise. > > > And people are comforted, feel better afterward. > > Just as people feel better after a sugar pill, if > they believe it was aspirin. > > > Also, I > > have read in the Awaken Children series of Amma's "swoon" like states, > > and a report of the information that she received during one such > > state. > > Information from where? Plenty of people "channel." > I believe most of them unwittingly make it up, and > some of them knowingly do so. > > And the "swoon?" It could be an act just as easily > as something authentic. Or, it could be a symptom of > mental illness. That happens to gurus too. > > > While I think we all are able to receive such information, and > > to channel our energies in healing and wondrous ways, my understanding > > is that gurus are notably adept at this. If not, from your post, I > > ask, what's the difference between any Jill or Joe on the street and > > your guru? And why not adopt the Jill or Joe as your guru/teacher > > instead? > > My guru has experiential understanding. That's what > a guru does, share their thoughts in the light of self > realization. All the special powers nonsense is just > like faith-healing. It happens because people believe > and expect it to happen. > > Amma is not functioning as a guru at all with her hugs. > She's just being a surrogate mommy. I believe that there > are a lot of people she helps, but they are helped much > more by their belief in Amma's special powers than they > are by anything actually magical about what she is doing.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 If this topic is about the kids who don't keep regular hours in Amma's Movement then at another group we have discussed this and many peoople who are around the children say that they are very well cared for and have everything in the world. Now as for reality who can say but the kids, and they're not talking. - Mary Ann Thursday, April 14, 2005 9:14 AM Re: Police Probe Author's Goddess 'Fantasy' The information I am talking about that Amma receives - based on what I read in Awaken Children, and yes, how I interpreted that, which was someone else's account to begin with, is that she is open on levels that allow her to have insight into others; she's receptive, intuitive. This is my personal experience of Amma, however, based on the times I have met/interacted wtih her. We all do have such capacity, but not everyone allows her/himself to tune in to such a great degree. It is true that other people also contort their faces in pain when they truly recognize the pain in others, and such recognition itself may be healing, just to have that acknowledgement in or of deep pain. About our interpretations, yours about "mommy" (which I do think aptly describes how many people may embrace Amma, just basically out of need for Mommy) and mine regarding intuition, healing, etc. -- I compare this to how we are affected by great art and beauty - it awakens something in us, or touches upon things within us, a touch from which we can grow, go deeper, have realizations, etc. If you just want Mommy, or Santa, sure, go sit on their laps. , "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote: > > > , "Mary Ann" > <buttercookie61> wrote: > > > > I question this portion of your post: "Gurus don't experience > > anything differently than > > > anyone else." > > > > I have seen Ammachi giving darshan, and I have seen what appear to be > > tremendous amounts of energy in the form of strong emotions move > > across her face rapidly when she is attending to people who are in > > great pain. > > That's your interpretation of your observation. She > could just be making faces. It would be easy to observe > those in pain and respond accordingly. She wouldn't even > be dishonest in doing so. That could be the pattern of > behavior which occurs when she observes a face in pain. > > Besides, there are plenty of healers who are not gurus > who may know the same experience. You can be a guru *and* > a healer, just like you can be a guru and a tennis player. > They aren't necessarily connected, despite everyone wanting > to believe otherwise. > > > And people are comforted, feel better afterward. > > Just as people feel better after a sugar pill, if > they believe it was aspirin. > > > Also, I > > have read in the Awaken Children series of Amma's "swoon" like states, > > and a report of the information that she received during one such > > state. > > Information from where? Plenty of people "channel." > I believe most of them unwittingly make it up, and > some of them knowingly do so. > > And the "swoon?" It could be an act just as easily > as something authentic. Or, it could be a symptom of > mental illness. That happens to gurus too. > > > While I think we all are able to receive such information, and > > to channel our energies in healing and wondrous ways, my understanding > > is that gurus are notably adept at this. If not, from your post, I > > ask, what's the difference between any Jill or Joe on the street and > > your guru? And why not adopt the Jill or Joe as your guru/teacher > > instead? > > My guru has experiential understanding. That's what > a guru does, share their thoughts in the light of self > realization. All the special powers nonsense is just > like faith-healing. It happens because people believe > and expect it to happen. > > Amma is not functioning as a guru at all with her hugs. > She's just being a surrogate mommy. I believe that there > are a lot of people she helps, but they are helped much > more by their belief in Amma's special powers than they > are by anything actually magical about what she is doing.. Sponsor Children International Would you give Hope to a Child in need? · Click Here to meet a Girl And Give Her Hope · Click Here to meet a Boy And Change His Life Learn More Links / b.. c.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 , "Mary Ann" <buttercookie61> wrote: > > The information I am talking about that Amma receives - based on what I read in > Awaken Children, and yes, how I interpreted that, which was someone else's > account to begin with, is that she is open on levels that allow her to have insight into > others; she's receptive, intuitive. This is my personal experience of Amma, Those are your personal *beliefs* about Amma. I'm not saying she is a fraud, just that anything supposedly magic about her can be explained without having to resort to magical explanations. It's all much more about what people believe about her than it is what she is actually doing with any magic powers she supposedly possesses. > however, > based on the times I have met/interacted wtih her. We all do have such capacity, but > not everyone allows her/himself to tune in to such a great degree. It is true that other > people also contort their faces in pain when they truly recognize the pain in others, > and such recognition itself may be healing, just to have that acknowledgement in or > of deep pain. > > About our interpretations, yours about "mommy" (which I do think aptly describes > how many people may embrace Amma, just basically out of need for Mommy) and > mine regarding intuition, healing, etc. -- I compare this to how we are affected by > great art and beauty - it awakens something in us, or touches upon things within us, > a touch from which we can grow, go deeper, have realizations, etc. If you just want > Mommy, or Santa, sure, go sit on their laps. > > > > > > , "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote: > > > > > > , "Mary Ann" > > <buttercookie61> wrote: > > > > > > I question this portion of your post: "Gurus don't experience > > > anything differently than > > > > anyone else." > > > > > > I have seen Ammachi giving darshan, and I have seen what appear to be > > > tremendous amounts of energy in the form of strong emotions move > > > across her face rapidly when she is attending to people who are in > > > great pain. > > > > That's your interpretation of your observation. She > > could just be making faces. It would be easy to observe > > those in pain and respond accordingly. She wouldn't even > > be dishonest in doing so. That could be the pattern of > > behavior which occurs when she observes a face in pain. > > > > Besides, there are plenty of healers who are not gurus > > who may know the same experience. You can be a guru *and* > > a healer, just like you can be a guru and a tennis player. > > They aren't necessarily connected, despite everyone wanting > > to believe otherwise. > > > > > And people are comforted, feel better afterward. > > > > Just as people feel better after a sugar pill, if > > they believe it was aspirin. > > > > > Also, I > > > have read in the Awaken Children series of Amma's "swoon" like states, > > > and a report of the information that she received during one such > > > state. > > > > Information from where? Plenty of people "channel." > > I believe most of them unwittingly make it up, and > > some of them knowingly do so. > > > > And the "swoon?" It could be an act just as easily > > as something authentic. Or, it could be a symptom of > > mental illness. That happens to gurus too. > > > > > While I think we all are able to receive such information, and > > > to channel our energies in healing and wondrous ways, my understanding > > > is that gurus are notably adept at this. If not, from your post, I > > > ask, what's the difference between any Jill or Joe on the street and > > > your guru? And why not adopt the Jill or Joe as your guru/teacher > > > instead? > > > > My guru has experiential understanding. That's what > > a guru does, share their thoughts in the light of self > > realization. All the special powers nonsense is just > > like faith-healing. It happens because people believe > > and expect it to happen. > > > > Amma is not functioning as a guru at all with her hugs. > > She's just being a surrogate mommy. I believe that there > > are a lot of people she helps, but they are helped much > > more by their belief in Amma's special powers than they > > are by anything actually magical about what she is doing.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Are you referring to children that are in Amma's schools, and housing? What are you referring to? My topic - that is, my input on the article posted by Devi Bhakta - was actually about gurus and energy/awareness levels, healing, etc. , "Eve__69" <eve__69@h...> wrote: > If this topic is about the kids who don't keep regular hours in Amma's Movement then at another group we have discussed this and many peoople who are around the children say that they are very well cared for and have everything in the world. Now as for reality who can say but the kids, and they're not talking. > - > Mary Ann > > Thursday, April 14, 2005 9:14 AM > Re: Police Probe Author's Goddess 'Fantasy' > > > > The information I am talking about that Amma receives - based on what I read in > Awaken Children, and yes, how I interpreted that, which was someone else's > account to begin with, is that she is open on levels that allow her to have insight into > others; she's receptive, intuitive. This is my personal experience of Amma, however, > based on the times I have met/interacted wtih her. We all do have such capacity, but > not everyone allows her/himself to tune in to such a great degree. It is true that other > people also contort their faces in pain when they truly recognize the pain in others, > and such recognition itself may be healing, just to have that acknowledgement in or > of deep pain. > > About our interpretations, yours about "mommy" (which I do think aptly describes > how many people may embrace Amma, just basically out of need for Mommy) and > mine regarding intuition, healing, etc. -- I compare this to how we are affected by > great art and beauty - it awakens something in us, or touches upon things within us, > a touch from which we can grow, go deeper, have realizations, etc. If you just want > Mommy, or Santa, sure, go sit on their laps. > > > > > > , "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote: > > > > > > , "Mary Ann" > > <buttercookie61> wrote: > > > > > > I question this portion of your post: "Gurus don't experience > > > anything differently than > > > > anyone else." > > > > > > I have seen Ammachi giving darshan, and I have seen what appear to be > > > tremendous amounts of energy in the form of strong emotions move > > > across her face rapidly when she is attending to people who are in > > > great pain. > > > > That's your interpretation of your observation. She > > could just be making faces. It would be easy to observe > > those in pain and respond accordingly. She wouldn't even > > be dishonest in doing so. That could be the pattern of > > behavior which occurs when she observes a face in pain. > > > > Besides, there are plenty of healers who are not gurus > > who may know the same experience. You can be a guru *and* > > a healer, just like you can be a guru and a tennis player. > > They aren't necessarily connected, despite everyone wanting > > to believe otherwise. > > > > > And people are comforted, feel better afterward. > > > > Just as people feel better after a sugar pill, if > > they believe it was aspirin. > > > > > Also, I > > > have read in the Awaken Children series of Amma's "swoon" like states, > > > and a report of the information that she received during one such > > > state. > > > > Information from where? Plenty of people "channel." > > I believe most of them unwittingly make it up, and > > some of them knowingly do so. > > > > And the "swoon?" It could be an act just as easily > > as something authentic. Or, it could be a symptom of > > mental illness. That happens to gurus too. > > > > > While I think we all are able to receive such information, and > > > to channel our energies in healing and wondrous ways, my understanding > > > is that gurus are notably adept at this. If not, from your post, I > > > ask, what's the difference between any Jill or Joe on the street and > > > your guru? And why not adopt the Jill or Joe as your guru/teacher > > > instead? > > > > My guru has experiential understanding. That's what > > a guru does, share their thoughts in the light of self > > realization. All the special powers nonsense is just > > like faith-healing. It happens because people believe > > and expect it to happen. > > > > Amma is not functioning as a guru at all with her hugs. > > She's just being a surrogate mommy. I believe that there > > are a lot of people she helps, but they are helped much > > more by their belief in Amma's special powers than they > > are by anything actually magical about what she is doing.. > > > > > Sponsor > > Children International > Would you give Hope to a Child in need? > > · Click Here to meet a Girl > And Give Her Hope > > · Click Here to meet a Boy > And Change His Life > > Learn More > > - ----------- > Links > > > / > > b.. > > > c.. Terms of Service. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 I don't know if it's true that all observations are colored, or created, by "belief." I do know people used to think the earth was flat, and that didn't make it flat. It is because scientists stopped believing that the atom is a solid entity that we can communicate in this medium right now. So, there are things that occur as a result of understanding more about the nature of things, of "reality," etc. Just because you say something is my "belief" does not make it my belief, no matter how interconnected we all are , "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote: > > > , "Mary Ann" > <buttercookie61> wrote: > > > > The information I am talking about that Amma receives - based on > what I read in > > Awaken Children, and yes, how I interpreted that, which was someone > else's > > account to begin with, is that she is open on levels that allow her > to have insight into > > others; she's receptive, intuitive. This is my personal experience > of Amma, > > Those are your personal *beliefs* about Amma. > > I'm not saying she is a fraud, just that anything > supposedly magic about her can be explained without > having to resort to magical explanations. > > It's all much more about what people believe about > her than it is what she is actually doing with any > magic powers she supposedly possesses. > > > however, > > based on the times I have met/interacted wtih her. We all do have > such capacity, but > > not everyone allows her/himself to tune in to such a great degree. > It is true that other > > people also contort their faces in pain when they truly recognize > the pain in others, > > and such recognition itself may be healing, just to have that > acknowledgement in or > > of deep pain. > > > > About our interpretations, yours about "mommy" (which I do think > aptly describes > > how many people may embrace Amma, just basically out of need for > Mommy) and > > mine regarding intuition, healing, etc. -- I compare this to how we > are affected by > > great art and beauty - it awakens something in us, or touches upon > things within us, > > a touch from which we can grow, go deeper, have realizations, etc. > If you just want > > Mommy, or Santa, sure, go sit on their laps. > > > > > > > > > > > > , "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote: > > > > > > > > > , "Mary Ann" > > > <buttercookie61> wrote: > > > > > > > > I question this portion of your post: "Gurus don't experience > > > > anything differently than > > > > > anyone else." > > > > > > > > I have seen Ammachi giving darshan, and I have seen what appear > to be > > > > tremendous amounts of energy in the form of strong emotions move > > > > across her face rapidly when she is attending to people who are in > > > > great pain. > > > > > > That's your interpretation of your observation. She > > > could just be making faces. It would be easy to observe > > > those in pain and respond accordingly. She wouldn't even > > > be dishonest in doing so. That could be the pattern of > > > behavior which occurs when she observes a face in pain. > > > > > > Besides, there are plenty of healers who are not gurus > > > who may know the same experience. You can be a guru *and* > > > a healer, just like you can be a guru and a tennis player. > > > They aren't necessarily connected, despite everyone wanting > > > to believe otherwise. > > > > > > > And people are comforted, feel better afterward. > > > > > > Just as people feel better after a sugar pill, if > > > they believe it was aspirin. > > > > > > > Also, I > > > > have read in the Awaken Children series of Amma's "swoon" like > states, > > > > and a report of the information that she received during one such > > > > state. > > > > > > Information from where? Plenty of people "channel." > > > I believe most of them unwittingly make it up, and > > > some of them knowingly do so. > > > > > > And the "swoon?" It could be an act just as easily > > > as something authentic. Or, it could be a symptom of > > > mental illness. That happens to gurus too. > > > > > > > While I think we all are able to receive such information, and > > > > to channel our energies in healing and wondrous ways, my > understanding > > > > is that gurus are notably adept at this. If not, from your post, I > > > > ask, what's the difference between any Jill or Joe on the street > and > > > > your guru? And why not adopt the Jill or Joe as your guru/teacher > > > > instead? > > > > > > My guru has experiential understanding. That's what > > > a guru does, share their thoughts in the light of self > > > realization. All the special powers nonsense is just > > > like faith-healing. It happens because people believe > > > and expect it to happen. > > > > > > Amma is not functioning as a guru at all with her hugs. > > > She's just being a surrogate mommy. I believe that there > > > are a lot of people she helps, but they are helped much > > > more by their belief in Amma's special powers than they > > > are by anything actually magical about what she is doing.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 >It's all much more about what people believe about >her than it is what she is actually doing with any >magic powers she supposedly possesses. You also are welcome to your belief to that effect. However, according to my readings of her teachings, Amma would not describe her siddhas as "magic powers" (she doesn't talk about them at all, in the sense of personally claiming any "powers") but instead what naturally proceeds from realization of the basic nature of Being. Which all can attain, but the powers are not the point. Realization of full, deep, original nature is. >If you just want > > Mommy, or Santa, sure, go sit on their laps. OK, so you have contempt for what you don't understand. It often happens. People do project, but much more is going on in those "hugs" than what people project. In fact, it is often what they do not expect. Max -- Max Dashu Suppressed Histories Archives Global Women's History http://www.suppressedhistories.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Dear Max: I made the comment about "Mommy or Santa's laps," and I agree with you that there is much more going on in Amma's hugs than that. I was saying, though, that some people really may go just for that level of comfort. But if that's what they want, let them. And I think I may have had a "tone" (yes, such a thing is evident in read-only format!) in my post b/c of how I was taking what I was responding to. Apologies if I offended with my flippant comment. Mary Ann , Max Dashu <maxdashu@l...> wrote: > >It's all much more about what people believe about > >her than it is what she is actually doing with any > >magic powers she supposedly possesses. > > You also are welcome to your belief to that effect. > > However, according to my readings of her teachings, Amma would not > describe her siddhas as "magic powers" (she doesn't talk about them > at all, in the sense of personally claiming any "powers") but instead > what naturally proceeds from realization of the basic nature of > Being. Which all can attain, but the powers are not the point. > Realization of full, deep, original nature is. > > >If you just want > > > Mommy, or Santa, sure, go sit on their laps. > > OK, so you have contempt for what you don't understand. It often happens. > > People do project, but much more is going on in those "hugs" than > what people project. In fact, it is often what they do not expect. > > Max > -- > Max Dashu > Suppressed Histories Archives > Global Women's History > http://www.suppressedhistories.net > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 , "Mary Ann" <buttercookie61> wrote: > > I don't know if it's true that all observations are colored, or > created, by "belief." I do know people used to think the earth was > flat, and that didn't make it flat. Right. Thinking Ammachi has magic powers doesn't make them magic. > It is because scientists stopped believing that the atom is a solid > entity that we can communicate in this medium right now. So, there > are things that occur as a result of understanding more about the > nature of things, of "reality," etc. Just because you say something > is my "belief" does not make it my belief, no matter how > interconnected we all are We are not interconnected outside of the social realm, but we are all the same being in truth. It's a different thing entirely. I just wanted to point out that people *expect* gurus to be magic, and they're willing to suspend their disbelief for it much more readily than they would for anyone else. It's all about wanting to get a pat on the head from "God." My observations and experience have led me to see that the magic is in peoples' heads much more than an actual causality. There are a number of problems with this, the primary one being people expect magic powers come with self-realization. Their expectation of becoming magic actually prevents them from seeing the ongoing truth of their being, available and as close as their own breath in every moment of their existence. Magic not required. > > , "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> > wrote: > > > > > > , "Mary Ann" > > <buttercookie61> wrote: > > > > > > The information I am talking about that Amma receives - based on > > what I read in > > > Awaken Children, and yes, how I interpreted that, which was > someone > > else's > > > account to begin with, is that she is open on levels that allow > her > > to have insight into > > > others; she's receptive, intuitive. This is my personal > experience > > of Amma, > > > > Those are your personal *beliefs* about Amma. > > > > I'm not saying she is a fraud, just that anything > > supposedly magic about her can be explained without > > having to resort to magical explanations. > > > > It's all much more about what people believe about > > her than it is what she is actually doing with any > > magic powers she supposedly possesses. > > > > > however, > > > based on the times I have met/interacted wtih her. We all do have > > such capacity, but > > > not everyone allows her/himself to tune in to such a great > degree. > > It is true that other > > > people also contort their faces in pain when they truly recognize > > the pain in others, > > > and such recognition itself may be healing, just to have that > > acknowledgement in or > > > of deep pain. > > > > > > About our interpretations, yours about "mommy" (which I do think > > aptly describes > > > how many people may embrace Amma, just basically out of need for > > Mommy) and > > > mine regarding intuition, healing, etc. -- I compare this to how > we > > are affected by > > > great art and beauty - it awakens something in us, or touches > upon > > things within us, > > > a touch from which we can grow, go deeper, have realizations, > etc. > > If you just want > > > Mommy, or Santa, sure, go sit on their laps. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Mary Ann" > > > > <buttercookie61> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I question this portion of your post: "Gurus don't > experience > > > > > anything differently than > > > > > > anyone else." > > > > > > > > > > I have seen Ammachi giving darshan, and I have seen what > appear > > to be > > > > > tremendous amounts of energy in the form of strong emotions > move > > > > > across her face rapidly when she is attending to people who > are in > > > > > great pain. > > > > > > > > That's your interpretation of your observation. She > > > > could just be making faces. It would be easy to observe > > > > those in pain and respond accordingly. She wouldn't even > > > > be dishonest in doing so. That could be the pattern of > > > > behavior which occurs when she observes a face in pain. > > > > > > > > Besides, there are plenty of healers who are not gurus > > > > who may know the same experience. You can be a guru *and* > > > > a healer, just like you can be a guru and a tennis player. > > > > They aren't necessarily connected, despite everyone wanting > > > > to believe otherwise. > > > > > > > > > And people are comforted, feel better afterward. > > > > > > > > Just as people feel better after a sugar pill, if > > > > they believe it was aspirin. > > > > > > > > > Also, I > > > > > have read in the Awaken Children series of Amma's "swoon" > like > > states, > > > > > and a report of the information that she received during one > such > > > > > state. > > > > > > > > Information from where? Plenty of people "channel." > > > > I believe most of them unwittingly make it up, and > > > > some of them knowingly do so. > > > > > > > > And the "swoon?" It could be an act just as easily > > > > as something authentic. Or, it could be a symptom of > > > > mental illness. That happens to gurus too. > > > > > > > > > While I think we all are able to receive such information, > and > > > > > to channel our energies in healing and wondrous ways, my > > understanding > > > > > is that gurus are notably adept at this. If not, from your > post, I > > > > > ask, what's the difference between any Jill or Joe on the > street > > and > > > > > your guru? And why not adopt the Jill or Joe as your > guru/teacher > > > > > instead? > > > > > > > > My guru has experiential understanding. That's what > > > > a guru does, share their thoughts in the light of self > > > > realization. All the special powers nonsense is just > > > > like faith-healing. It happens because people believe > > > > and expect it to happen. > > > > > > > > Amma is not functioning as a guru at all with her hugs. > > > > She's just being a surrogate mommy. I believe that there > > > > are a lot of people she helps, but they are helped much > > > > more by their belief in Amma's special powers than they > > > > are by anything actually magical about what she is doing.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 , Max Dashu <maxdashu@l...> wrote: > >It's all much more about what people believe about > >her than it is what she is actually doing with any > >magic powers she supposedly possesses. > > You also are welcome to your belief to that effect. > > However, according to my readings of her teachings, Amma would not > describe her siddhas as "magic powers" (she doesn't talk about them > at all, in the sense of personally claiming any "powers") but instead > what naturally proceeds from realization of the basic nature of > Being. Which all can attain, but the powers are not the point. > Realization of full, deep, original nature is. It's not as deep as you think. It's right here, with us all, right now. How come we're not magic? I've been a yogi for a number of years, and I've met or listened to many gurus of all sorts. I have never seen anything to lead me to believe they had magic powers. Everything had a more simple and believable explantion. > >If you just want > > > Mommy, or Santa, sure, go sit on their laps. > > OK, so you have contempt for what you don't understand. It often happens. I have contempt for the occluding ideas that follow Amma's and other bigtime guru satsangs. People need their hugs. I understand that. However, that has nothing to do with self-realization. It's just a mommy fix. > People do project, but much more is going on in those "hugs" than > what people project. In fact, it is often what they do not expect. But they expect something. That's all it takes, the belief that something will happen. The mind does the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2005 Report Share Posted April 15, 2005 I think you are making a mistake by calling what I was referring to as "magic" or "special powers." I did not mean to say that Amma is "magic" or "special" in the way that you seem to mean - somehow you are not recognizing my meanings and I'm done sharing them now. Good luck to you. , "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote: > > > , "Mary Ann" > <buttercookie61> wrote: > > > > I don't know if it's true that all observations are colored, or > > created, by "belief." I do know people used to think the earth was > > flat, and that didn't make it flat. > > Right. Thinking Ammachi has magic powers doesn't make them > magic. > > > It is because scientists stopped believing that the atom is a solid > > entity that we can communicate in this medium right now. So, there > > are things that occur as a result of understanding more about the > > nature of things, of "reality," etc. Just because you say something > > is my "belief" does not make it my belief, no matter how > > interconnected we all are > > We are not interconnected outside of the social realm, but we > are all the same being in truth. It's a different thing entirely. > > I just wanted to point out that people *expect* gurus to > be magic, and they're willing to suspend their disbelief > for it much more readily than they would for anyone else. > > It's all about wanting to get a pat on the head from "God." > > My observations and experience have led me to see that > the magic is in peoples' heads much more than an actual > causality. > > There are a number of problems with this, the primary one > being people expect magic powers come with self-realization. > Their expectation of becoming magic actually prevents > them from seeing the ongoing truth of their being, available > and as close as their own breath in every moment of their > existence. Magic not required. > > > > > , "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > , "Mary Ann" > > > <buttercookie61> wrote: > > > > > > > > The information I am talking about that Amma receives - based on > > > what I read in > > > > Awaken Children, and yes, how I interpreted that, which was > > someone > > > else's > > > > account to begin with, is that she is open on levels that allow > > her > > > to have insight into > > > > others; she's receptive, intuitive. This is my personal > > experience > > > of Amma, > > > > > > Those are your personal *beliefs* about Amma. > > > > > > I'm not saying she is a fraud, just that anything > > > supposedly magic about her can be explained without > > > having to resort to magical explanations. > > > > > > It's all much more about what people believe about > > > her than it is what she is actually doing with any > > > magic powers she supposedly possesses. > > > > > > > however, > > > > based on the times I have met/interacted wtih her. We all do have > > > such capacity, but > > > > not everyone allows her/himself to tune in to such a great > > degree. > > > It is true that other > > > > people also contort their faces in pain when they truly recognize > > > the pain in others, > > > > and such recognition itself may be healing, just to have that > > > acknowledgement in or > > > > of deep pain. > > > > > > > > About our interpretations, yours about "mommy" (which I do think > > > aptly describes > > > > how many people may embrace Amma, just basically out of need for > > > Mommy) and > > > > mine regarding intuition, healing, etc. -- I compare this to how > > we > > > are affected by > > > > great art and beauty - it awakens something in us, or touches > > upon > > > things within us, > > > > a touch from which we can grow, go deeper, have realizations, > > etc. > > > If you just want > > > > Mommy, or Santa, sure, go sit on their laps. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Mary Ann" > > > > > <buttercookie61> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I question this portion of your post: "Gurus don't > > experience > > > > > > anything differently than > > > > > > > anyone else." > > > > > > > > > > > > I have seen Ammachi giving darshan, and I have seen what > > appear > > > to be > > > > > > tremendous amounts of energy in the form of strong emotions > > move > > > > > > across her face rapidly when she is attending to people who > > are in > > > > > > great pain. > > > > > > > > > > That's your interpretation of your observation. She > > > > > could just be making faces. It would be easy to observe > > > > > those in pain and respond accordingly. She wouldn't even > > > > > be dishonest in doing so. That could be the pattern of > > > > > behavior which occurs when she observes a face in pain. > > > > > > > > > > Besides, there are plenty of healers who are not gurus > > > > > who may know the same experience. You can be a guru *and* > > > > > a healer, just like you can be a guru and a tennis player. > > > > > They aren't necessarily connected, despite everyone wanting > > > > > to believe otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > > And people are comforted, feel better afterward. > > > > > > > > > > Just as people feel better after a sugar pill, if > > > > > they believe it was aspirin. > > > > > > > > > > > Also, I > > > > > > have read in the Awaken Children series of Amma's "swoon" > > like > > > states, > > > > > > and a report of the information that she received during one > > such > > > > > > state. > > > > > > > > > > Information from where? Plenty of people "channel." > > > > > I believe most of them unwittingly make it up, and > > > > > some of them knowingly do so. > > > > > > > > > > And the "swoon?" It could be an act just as easily > > > > > as something authentic. Or, it could be a symptom of > > > > > mental illness. That happens to gurus too. > > > > > > > > > > > While I think we all are able to receive such information, > > and > > > > > > to channel our energies in healing and wondrous ways, my > > > understanding > > > > > > is that gurus are notably adept at this. If not, from your > > post, I > > > > > > ask, what's the difference between any Jill or Joe on the > > street > > > and > > > > > > your guru? And why not adopt the Jill or Joe as your > > guru/teacher > > > > > > instead? > > > > > > > > > > My guru has experiential understanding. That's what > > > > > a guru does, share their thoughts in the light of self > > > > > realization. All the special powers nonsense is just > > > > > like faith-healing. It happens because people believe > > > > > and expect it to happen. > > > > > > > > > > Amma is not functioning as a guru at all with her hugs. > > > > > She's just being a surrogate mommy. I believe that there > > > > > are a lot of people she helps, but they are helped much > > > > > more by their belief in Amma's special powers than they > > > > > are by anything actually magical about what she is doing.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2005 Report Share Posted April 15, 2005 , "Mary Ann" <buttercookie61> wrote: > > I think you are making a mistake by calling what I was referring to > as "magic" or "special powers." I did not mean to say that Amma > is "magic" or "special" in the way that you seem to mean - > somehow you are not recognizing my meanings and I'm done > sharing them now. Good luck to you. If she is getting information without hearing it being said or giving any kind of "energy," that is what I'm calling magic. She's a nice lady giving hugs. Anything on top of that is in the eyes of her behugged only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2005 Report Share Posted April 15, 2005 >I was saying, though, that some people really may go just for that >level of comfort. But if that's what they want, let them. Yes, I agree that's true. blessed be, Max -- Max Dashu Suppressed Histories Archives Global Women's History http://www.suppressedhistories.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2005 Report Share Posted April 15, 2005 > > Realization of full, deep, original nature is. > >It's not as deep as you think. It's right here, with >us all, right now. How come we're not magic? We are, and it is right with us, but we are not fully conscious of it, and so the Union does not manifest in the same way, according to our full potential. That's why I say, deep. We in our incarnate forms with all the mental attachments and veils haven't accessed those heights and depths, or we would Know and Be in accord with the Absolute, Adi Parashakti. >I've been a yogi for a number of years, and I've met or >listened to many gurus of all sorts. I have never seen >anything to lead me to believe they had magic powers. OK, "magic powers," you're not listening. Whatever. Everyone has a right to their opinions. And experiences. Max -- Max Dashu Suppressed Histories Archives Global Women's History http://www.suppressedhistories.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2005 Report Share Posted April 20, 2005 In my view Belief is just a tool. If it serves to make our lives better, sometimes it's useful to believe something that's not true. Although this is very different from being brainwashed or ignorant of what the truth "really" is, which might only be the generally accepted view and not really the truth after all. No the earth isn't the center, no wait, the sun isn't the center, no wait, the galaxy isn't the center, no wait, the universe has an edge, no wait, no it doesn't etc... etc... etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2005 Report Share Posted April 20, 2005 Put that way, it sounds more like an idea that is accepted until new information causes the edge to move - you gave a good description of expanding consciousness. It's like the light shines out a little farther and you realize there's something more out there, something beyond what had been previously perceived as the "edge." I guess it's not for one person to judge another's beliefs, yet there are many who seem to prefer beliefs or belief systems that do not allow for such expansion of consciousness. I guess they fear people will be led astray or are being led astray when they vary from "the generally accepted view." , "quetz333" <ashoka33@h...> wrote: > > In my view Belief is just a tool. If it serves to make our lives > better, sometimes it's useful to believe something that's not true. > Although this is very different from being brainwashed or ignorant > of what the truth "really" is, which might only be the generally > accepted view and not really the truth after all. No the earth isn't > the center, no wait, the sun isn't the center, no wait, the galaxy > isn't the center, no wait, the universe has an edge, no wait, no it > doesn't etc... etc... etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.