Guest guest Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 93, Greetings. Please excuse me for the replying, but i am forced to speak. In Her Name... , "childofdevi" <childofdevi> wrote: > Arjuna, > > This is gross over-statement/ mis-statement. Reference: Jnaneshwar in the Jnaneshwari states that by practice of mechanical hatha yoga > pratices alone(he gives specific excercises), Kundalini can be awakened and aroused. He even goes on to say that this is the quickest way to arouse kundalini. Love may be one of the many ways... > > -yogaman Interesting, why U concider the view of Jnaneshwar to be true and the view of Abhinavagupta and the whole great tradition of Kula to be false. Finally, it is Ur choise. Everyone is free to practice "liberating" monkey excersises, hold breath or torture his body by severe diet or by being a celibate. There is no point in arguing - time will reveal the truth. There are two options on the way of every human being - understanding or suffering. Liberating is only true understanding, but suffering also indirectly leads to it. Choosing mechanical practices, one will suffer. As it is said in "Tantraloka", "all 8 limbs of yoga are of no use; they are called steps only because they go in successing and help to make certain conclusions out of them" . If Jnaneshwar provides such a doctrine he simply shows his misconception of hatha-yoga. These corrupted views were common among the followers of later natha tradition attributed to Goraksha. Yet even there they were not so primitive. The early texts mentioning Kundalini are Kubjika-tantras and Kashmiri-Shaiva texts. There Mahakundalini is located above the head while her minor aspect is below in adhara (as variations we meet nabhi or feet). The descent of Mahakundalini is the result of Grace of Shiva only, it is called shakti-[ni]pata. And the awakening of lower kundalini is occurring in the responce to the descent of the higher one. This process is mentioned by Sri Aurobindo, who is quiet more popularly known than Kashmiri mystics. If U agree that Kundalini is the aspect of Divine Mother, how can U make such an insult to Her saying what U have said? Goddess can be awakened by some circus' gymnastics? - Never! Her heart is moved by Love and grace, compassion. That is why saints underline the uttermost importance of bhakti. Most of holy people never did any "mechanical excersises" and yet got in the presence of Her, achieved liberation. While lakhs of "yogins" practice their excersises for years with no spiritual result. Some even become world champions in "yoga-sport" . But not even one became a jnani... Alas, hinduism is killed by such views. And Devi is insulted . U speak as if U want to rape Her (God forbid!). Such path leads to the curse only, it is nIchAchAra - not even pashvAchAra. Noone ever achieves Her through any kind of excersises. "Only Love saves", states Shiva in Kularnava-tantra. I beg a pardon for such a severe reply. Although i was told by my kula-deshika not to criticize mcuh, i see this to be needed in this case. Even if i get a blow for this myself, it may open somebody's eyes to the truth... Satyameva Jayate! Love is the law, love under will. Arjunanandanatha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 Arjuna wrote: "Her heart is moved by Love and grace, compassion. That is why saints underline the uttermost importance of bhakti. Most of holy people never did any "mechanical excersises" and yet got in the presence of Her, achieved liberation." While this is true, for my own part I started with "mechanical excersises" which awakened the Goddess to me. After that I felt - or rather Universe told me - that bhakti was very important. And not only bhakti in front of an image but IN REAL LIFE, to perceive the Godesss in every woman and in the nature and serve her in this incarnations. If there are people practizing yoga excersises without results, my advice to them is that Life is our school, then perhaps little more time in school will help. Time used to some form of (altruistic) social work where you transform your person. Or perhaps even a fungus-trip to break down the materialistic worldpicture. "Noone ever achieves Her through any kind of excersises. "Only Love saves", states Shiva in Kularnava-tantra." How do yogastudents learn how to love? You can't just push a button you know. If yoga means union with a greater reality this mean that the self-love is transformed to love to other beings as well as you become them by doing yoga. Regards Lars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 Brother Arjuna, I did not consider this reply as severe LOL. Nowhere did I say that Jnaneshwar was right and Abhinavagupta was wrong. Why could not both be right- why does Abhinavagupta have to be right and everybody else wrong. Scripture is full of references to variegated paths - so there is no question of one path alone to the exclusivity of others. As I consider you very knowledgeable in Kula and tantra, I am somewhat shocked at this exhibition of "my way or the highway". It may interest you that though Jnaneshwar (who would be on par with Abhinavagupta) stated Hatha alone can lead to the goal, he exhorted all to resort to Bhakthi. The path of Hatha is very hard and is for the rare aspirant (note I am not referring to excercises as depicted in the Yoga Journal showing scantily clad women in various poses). You are right, the practices of Hatha are monkey excercises when monkeys practice them (as seem to be case most of the time) :-). Now if I take your reasoning one step further(which is that monkeys practice them so they are monkey excercises), then it can be readily inferred that most tantriks are donkeys (consdering how much rubbish is advocated in the name of tantra most of the time) and all tantra sadhana is nothing but donkey excercises. So I hope you realise the fallacy of judging with a myopic eye. Quoting tantraloka in refuting yoga is baseless just as quoting from the Bible in refuting Hinduism. From the Devi Gita , the divine mother herself says "There is no siddhi in mantra without yoga" (the context is control of breath for mantra japa), so I rest my case. REgards, -yogaman , "Arjuna Taradasa" <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote: > > 93, Greetings. > > Please excuse me for the replying, but i am forced to speak. In Her > Name... > > , "childofdevi" > <childofdevi> wrote: > > Arjuna, > > > > This is gross over-statement/ mis-statement. Reference: Jnaneshwar > in the Jnaneshwari states that by practice of mechanical hatha yoga > > pratices alone(he gives specific excercises), Kundalini can be > awakened and aroused. He even goes on to say that this is the quickest > way to arouse kundalini. Love may be one of the many ways... > > > > -yogaman > > Interesting, why U concider the view of Jnaneshwar to be true and the > view of Abhinavagupta and the whole great tradition of Kula to be > false. Finally, it is Ur choise. Everyone is free to practice > "liberating" monkey excersises, hold breath or torture his body by > severe diet or by being a celibate. There is no point in arguing - > time will reveal the truth. > There are two options on the way of every human being - understanding > or suffering. Liberating is only true understanding, but suffering > also indirectly leads to it. Choosing mechanical practices, one will > suffer. As it is said in "Tantraloka", "all 8 limbs of yoga are of no > use; they are called steps only because they go in successing and help > to make certain conclusions out of them" . > > If Jnaneshwar provides such a doctrine he simply shows his > misconception of hatha-yoga. These corrupted views were common among > the followers of later natha tradition attributed to Goraksha. Yet > even there they were not so primitive. > > The early texts mentioning Kundalini are Kubjika-tantras and > Kashmiri-Shaiva texts. There Mahakundalini is located above the head > while her minor aspect is below in adhara (as variations we meet nabhi > or feet). The descent of Mahakundalini is the result of Grace of Shiva > only, it is called shakti-[ni]pata. And the awakening of lower > kundalini is occurring in the responce to the descent of the higher > one. This process is mentioned by Sri Aurobindo, who is quiet more > popularly known than Kashmiri mystics. > If U agree that Kundalini is the aspect of Divine Mother, how can U > make such an insult to Her saying what U have said? Goddess can be > awakened by some circus' gymnastics? - Never! > Her heart is moved by Love and grace, compassion. That is why saints > underline the uttermost importance of bhakti. Most of holy people > never did any "mechanical excersises" and yet got in the presence of > Her, achieved liberation. While lakhs of "yogins" practice their > excersises for years with no spiritual result. Some even become world > champions in "yoga-sport" . But not even one became a jnani... > > Alas, hinduism is killed by such views. And Devi is insulted . U > speak as if U want to rape Her (God forbid!). Such path leads to the > curse only, it is nIchAchAra - not even pashvAchAra. > > Noone ever achieves Her through any kind of excersises. "Only Love > saves", states Shiva in Kularnava-tantra. > > I beg a pardon for such a severe reply. Although i was told by my > kula-deshika not to criticize mcuh, i see this to be needed in this > case. Even if i get a blow for this myself, it may open somebody's > eyes to the truth... > > Satyameva Jayate! > Love is the law, love under will. > Arjunanandanatha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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