Aesceticism in Tantra: Hindu vs. Buddhist Approaches

[Guest guest]

In fact, the opposite is true: "hindu tantra" is practised mostly by laymen who

have families, whereas buddhist tantra is mostly practiced by monks who are most

often celibate. There are no retreats recommended in hindu tantra, whereas at

least one retreat of 3 Years is a neccesssity in most buddhist schools before

you are allowed to teach others. Many teachers do this retreat 2-3 times.

Ascetism is much more pronounced in buddhist tantra than in the "hindu variety."

 

, Lars Hedström <lars@2...>

wrote:

> Eve 69:

>

> "Buddhist tantra is the only tantra specifically formulated to make

samsara into nirvana through realization through daily life and not

through retreats and running always elsewhere."

>

> But surely, this is also an attitude of hindu tantra?

>

> Regards

>

> Lars

[Guest guest]

I agree with mahahdranatha.

 

In Buddhist India, people were coverting to Buddhism and renouncing

the world IN LARGE NUMBERS to get to the coveted goal, NIRVANA. That

was a period of sociological trauma for India.

 

That set the stage for Adi Sankaracharya to come in and revive

Hinduism with his unique interpretation of Jnana for the

intellectually-inclined (Vivekachudamani) and sacred texts of Bhakti

and reverence (examples: Saundarya Lahiri and Bhaja Govindam). The

latter category, especially, allowed the people to remain

housleholders and yet retain a hope for glimpsing the Divine.

 

I agree though that people in the Orient seem to have adjusted

better to Buddhism sociologically than in India.

 

All I said above relates equally to the Tantra aspect of both

religions as it does to the "non-Tantra" aspects.

 

, "mahahradanatha"

<mahahradanatha> wrote:

> In fact, the opposite is true: "hindu tantra" is practised mostly

by laymen who have families, whereas buddhist tantra is mostly

practiced by monks who are most often celibate. There are no

retreats recommended in hindu tantra, whereas at least one retreat

of 3 Years is a neccesssity in most buddhist schools before you are

allowed to teach others. Many teachers do this retreat 2-3 times.

Ascetism is much more pronounced in buddhist tantra than in

the "hindu variety."

>

> , Lars Hedström <lars@2...>

> wrote:

> > Eve 69:

> >

> > "Buddhist tantra is the only tantra specifically formulated to

make

> samsara into nirvana through realization through daily life and

not

> through retreats and running always elsewhere."

> >

> > But surely, this is also an attitude of hindu tantra?

> >

> > Regards

> >

> > Lars

[Guest guest]

especially, allowed the people to remain

housleholders and yet retain a hope for glimpsing the Divine.

 

-----That's certainly kind of Sri Shankara. Quite nice of him to dole out the

promise of a glimpse of the Divine to some householders, when such a promise was

not his to give, as the Divine is an omnipresent reality which depends on

nothing but giving up pretention.

 

 

I agree though that people in the Orient seem to have adjusted

better to Buddhism sociologically than in India.

 

All I said above relates equally to the Tantra aspect of both

religions as it does to the "non-Tantra" aspects.

 

-----Again, someone who doesn't even hold buddhist views preaching on about how

this or that Buddha this Buddha that. All this knowledge and can you even take a

scrap of food from your mouth to give to a starving child? That is real

knowledge, not preaching Buddha this Buddhism that. Your ghettos exist not

because of Buddhism but because of the Hindu caste system. Because as you put

it, anything less than the priestly godlike smartas and their allied Hindu

factions are karmically unworthy to aspire to more than a glimpse. That same

attitude forces those that you alienate to pursue the extreme Muslim religions

and culture their hatred. All Buddha was saying is your karma is catching.

That's pretty simple. But the message was perhaps, too simple even for Shankara,

who wrote captivating and long winded treatises with no practical value. And had

old women physically forced out of the way of his caravan. Here I am and I am a

fool, and yet I know one thing. God is present right now in everything, even the

smallest lice on a dog. I need nobody to tell me different or try to refute me

because to refute my statement is a slap to the Divine. If you find the divine

somewhere and not somewhere else, including not in Buddhism, then you really

cannot find the Divine at all. It is. That's all. In the world God is suffering

in Calcutta in the miens of a million starving. God is all. When you kick a dog

you kick God. Wwhen you refute the Buddha, you refute your own awakened staus.

That can't be good.

 

Should you be confused about this that I speak then answer one single question.

What is enlightenment?

 

I might be, nay am wrong about Hinduism, and I am glad to be so, as the

surprising beauty of it is always greater than anything I could create or

imagine. Glory to Hinduism for you are beautiful people. Many sects under the

Hindu banner are totally perfect without remainder, such as the Sivaites. I love

the Sivaittes. I love so many of you Hindus. I really really would have

converted except that the Vedic creed is mistaken. There is no love there. There

cannot be love in an entrenched system where there is no personal will. Because

if one doesn't choose to open up and love, then they cannot choose to be the

recipient of love either.

 

My personal belief is that one cannot be born into a religion and hope to also

follow it, because of personal bias. Only those that leave their mental home can

return to the truth. The others, are just winking in a mirror of their own

illusions.

 

 

, "mahahradanatha"

<mahahradanatha> wrote:

> In fact, the opposite is true: "hindu tantra" is practised mostly

by laymen who have families, whereas buddhist tantra is mostly

practiced by monks who are most often celibate. There are no

retreats recommended in hindu tantra, whereas at least one retreat

of 3 Years is a neccesssity in most buddhist schools before you are

allowed to teach others. Many teachers do this retreat 2-3 times.

Ascetism is much more pronounced in buddhist tantra than in

the "hindu variety."

>

> , Lars Hedström <lars@2...>

> wrote:

> > Eve 69:

> >

> > "Buddhist tantra is the only tantra specifically formulated to

make

> samsara into nirvana through realization through daily life and

not

> through retreats and running always elsewhere."

> >

> > But surely, this is also an attitude of hindu tantra?

> >

> > Regards

> >

> > Lars

 

 

 

 

 

 

--

 

/

 

b..

 

c..

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

no comments except to say "no comments".

 

, "Eve__69" <eve__69@h...>

wrote:

> especially, allowed the people to remain

> housleholders and yet retain a hope for glimpsing the Divine.

>

> -----That's certainly kind of Sri Shankara. Quite nice of him to

dole out the promise of a glimpse of the Divine to some

householders, when such a promise was not his to give, as the Divine

is an omnipresent reality which depends on nothing but giving up

pretention.

>

>

> I agree though that people in the Orient seem to have adjusted

> better to Buddhism sociologically than in India.

>

> All I said above relates equally to the Tantra aspect of both

> religions as it does to the "non-Tantra" aspects.

>

> -----Again, someone who doesn't even hold buddhist views preaching

on about how this or that Buddha this Buddha that. All this

knowledge and can you even take a scrap of food from your mouth to

give to a starving child? That is real knowledge, not preaching

Buddha this Buddhism that. Your ghettos exist not because of

Buddhism but because of the Hindu caste system. Because as you put

it, anything less than the priestly godlike smartas and their allied

Hindu factions are karmically unworthy to aspire to more than a

glimpse. That same attitude forces those that you alienate to pursue

the extreme Muslim religions and culture their hatred. All Buddha

was saying is your karma is catching. That's pretty simple. But the

message was perhaps, too simple even for Shankara, who wrote

captivating and long winded treatises with no practical value. And

had old women physically forced out of the way of his caravan. Here

I am and I am a fool, and yet I know one thing. God is present right

now in everything, even the smallest lice on a dog. I need nobody

to tell me different or try to refute me because to refute my

statement is a slap to the Divine. If you find the divine somewhere

and not somewhere else, including not in Buddhism, then you really

cannot find the Divine at all. It is. That's all. In the world God

is suffering in Calcutta in the miens of a million starving. God is

all. When you kick a dog you kick God. Wwhen you refute the Buddha,

you refute your own awakened staus. That can't be good.

>

> Should you be confused about this that I speak then answer one

single question. What is enlightenment?

>

> I might be, nay am wrong about Hinduism, and I am glad to be so,

as the surprising beauty of it is always greater than anything I

could create or imagine. Glory to Hinduism for you are beautiful

people. Many sects under the Hindu banner are totally perfect

without remainder, such as the Sivaites. I love the Sivaittes. I

love so many of you Hindus. I really really would have converted

except that the Vedic creed is mistaken. There is no love there.

There cannot be love in an entrenched system where there is no

personal will. Because if one doesn't choose to open up and love,

then they cannot choose to be the recipient of love either.

>

> My personal belief is that one cannot be born into a religion and

hope to also follow it, because of personal bias. Only those that

leave their mental home can return to the truth. The others, are

just winking in a mirror of their own illusions.

>

>

> , "mahahradanatha"

> <mahahradanatha> wrote:

> > In fact, the opposite is true: "hindu tantra" is practised

mostly

> by laymen who have families, whereas buddhist tantra is mostly

> practiced by monks who are most often celibate. There are no

> retreats recommended in hindu tantra, whereas at least one retreat

> of 3 Years is a neccesssity in most buddhist schools before you

are

> allowed to teach others. Many teachers do this retreat 2-3 times.

> Ascetism is much more pronounced in buddhist tantra than in

> the "hindu variety."

> >

> > , Lars Hedström <lars@2...>

> > wrote:

> > > Eve 69:

> > >

> > > "Buddhist tantra is the only tantra specifically formulated to

> make

> > samsara into nirvana through realization through daily life and

> not

> > through retreats and running always elsewhere."

> > >

> > > But surely, this is also an attitude of hindu tantra?

> > >

> > > Regards

> > >

> > > Lars

[Guest guest]

I agree-and add: The amount of monks that have and had to be fed by

the working classes of course mostly peasants are a threat even today

to the social welfare of buddhist countries.

 

The non buddhist ascetics of india were and are not allowed to beg more

than once from one family thats why they have been and still are

wandering and where always thankful for what they received and did pose

no threat to the society -while the Buddhist mahants became more and

more greedy and were and are demanding jewels gold and riches and

luxuryand left the peasants with little more then the bare

necessesities of life.

 

, "manoj_menon" <ammasmon@s...>

wrote:

> I agree with mahahdranatha.

>

> In Buddhist India, people were coverting to Buddhism and renouncing

> the world IN LARGE NUMBERS to get to the coveted goal, NIRVANA. That

> was a period of sociological trauma for India.