practical and esoteric

[Guest guest]

Regarding esoteric details, Yvonne writes:

 

*** what I see here lots of times is esoteric details ***

 

Once you've assimilated the basics of any spiritual system (and most

certainly Shakta), "esoteric details" are what you need (and want)

in order to continue on through ever deeper, ever more expansive

levels of experience. That is not theory, that is practice.

 

*** some of them described with sanskrit terminology that I have a

hard time keeping straight. ***

 

As it happens, Sanskrit is the primary liturgical language of

Hinduism. In the Group, we offer many translations and abundant

explanations, but ultimately -- it is what it is. At a certain

point, if one is interested enough to meet the system on its own

terms (rather than as a mediated experience), a certain amount of

effort is needed to make this additional vocabulary your own.

 

*** Auntie Usha concentrates more on the basics ... ***

 

As noted, basics are essential as a foundation for any serious

practice. Once you have assimilated "the basics", however, you

should begin using them as foundations were intended to be used: as

platforms to build upon. Again, that is not theory, but the essence

of any living, evolving practice.

 

*** ... like how to meditate, how to harness your inner energy, what

are the best yoga positions, stuff like that. ***

 

None of these are necessarily "basic", you know. It's like

saying "how to paint" is basic. Well, yeah, I can hand a 5-year-old

a brush, some colors and some paper, and she'll paint. A tree, a

house, a sun. But "painting" also encompasses some of the most

intricate, radiant, skillful creations of the human mind. There are

(I think you'll agree) many degrees of separation between the art on

a kindergarten wall and the art on, say, a wall in the Louvre. But

to get from one to the other, the artist's training *needs* to

become a bit "esoteric" (apart from its obvious aesthetic qualities,

the sheer technical wizardry underlying "Mona Lisa," for example, is

no mean feat) -- in practice as well as theory. It's hard work

getting there, and requires much talent and no little grace; but

perhaps it is worth it, after all -- especially compared to the

alternative of remaining infinitely in kindergarten.

 

*** And she usually has a goal in mind ... ***

 

As does any sadhak, be it guru or shishya.

 

*** Take mantras for example. I have seen people on this list

discuss at some great length how to pronounce some specific mantra.

Auntie Usha says the choice of mantra is yours and yours alone. ***

 

In Shakta (or most any kind of Hindu) practice, the guru

traditionally assigns the mantra or mantra, depending on the needs

of the shishya, though many might choose a favorite -- Gayatri

mantra, Saraswati mantra, etc. -- in the absence of a guru.

 

Your auntie is, however (as I understand it), propounding a system

of her own invention -- it is not Shakta, nor does she appear to

present it as such. But since you clearly consider her to be your

primary spiritual teacher or guru; well, yes, you should follow her

guidance. But understand that this advice, while right for you, is

simply one opinion, no doubt based on her personal experiences and

beliefs. Likewise, Shakta and other systems have their own sets

of "advice," based on the oral and written traditions and

experiences of the various lineages over the millennia. They tend to

work pretty well, too. ;-) In practice and in theory. That's why

people talk about them.

 

*** After all, the Goddess lives within your soul and she is the one

you are trying to communicate with. She knows you and knows what you

want. You don't need to communicate anything TO her. Goal is for you

to hear what she's telling you, not the other way around. So pick

whatever mantra you want. ***

 

Mantra is not a means of "communication" with the deity in the sense

you describe. Mantra is the deity herself (himself, itself, etc) in

her (his, its) vibrational essence. Mantra is a means of profoundly

changing -- or at least fine-tuning -- the sadhak's own subtle

vibrational frequency, for a staggering variety of spiritual

purposes. And mantra is considerably more than that, as well.

Volumes have been filled over the centuries, minutely propounding

the art and science of mantra in its infinite aspects. "Esoteric"

though much of this knowledge may be, it is extremely useful, even

indispensable at certain levels of practice. Which is why "pick

whatever mantra you want" might found somewhat lacking as

truly "practical" advice beyond the very initial, introductory

stages of self-inquiry.

 

*** [The] purpose of the mantra is to concentrate your thoughts and

push extraneous chatter out of your brain so you can better received

the wisdom and the enlightenment the Goddess is offering you. ***

 

Yes, that is certainly one "purpose" of mantra. But it's a purpose

the floats very close to the surface of a very deep ocean. Men and

women of very great spiritual accomplishment have, through the ages,

catalogued and described infinitely deeper levels of meaning and

understanding to explore. As wise as your auntie may be, these great

souls were no slouches themselves -- "esoteric" and difficult though

their teachings might appear to the novice. Generations of people

who really could not be considered fools have followed their advice

and replicated their results.

 

*** At least that's the way I understand it. ***

 

Precisely.

 

*** Maybe Auntie Usha can clarify if I've misstated anything. ***

 

No doubt.

 

Aum MAtangyai NamaH

[Guest guest]

Thanx, Devi Bhakta, or whatever your name is, for taking the time to

explain all this. I pretty much know all you said. But the question

becomes how much detail a person really wants to know about somebody

else's path.

My Auntie Usha's philosophy is that you are your own judge about

how to do these things. You study from other people and learn what

they have done, and try their ideas, but you decide which ones to

follow and which ones you don't. You don't follow anybody's advice

unquestioningly, including Auntie Usha's.

This is a logical conclusion from the concept that the Goddess

lives inside the soul of every individual. She never reveals herself

completely to anybody. Not to you, not to me, not to the ancient

sages, nobody. So you listen to the wise gurus and leaders who came

before us so that we can learn what the Goddess taught to them, but

then we have to allow the piece of the Goddess that lies within us

the freedom to express herself through us, making through each of us

whatever contribution she wishes to make to the vast pool of wisdom.

So the experience is and should be different for everybody. And we

all swap notes. You teach me what you've learned and I teach you my

revelations.

This may be different from the way you guys do things, but like

you said yourself, Auntie Usha never claims to be following the same

path as you.

Thanx again.

 

Yvonne

[Guest guest]

> Western Neo-Pagans often cannot grasp the fact that

> Sanskrit mantra cannot be "translated" -- ... As if chanting in

> English would have the same effect in performing a

> Puja!

 

Sometimes I do it in Spanish. I believe the Goddess understands all

languages.

> I've always been told that PRAYER is the art of

> speaking to the Godhead; and MEDITATION (with or

> without mantra) is the art of listening to the

> Godhead.

 

Probably true.

 

Yvonne

[Guest guest]

Yvonne writes:

 

*** Thanx, Devi Bhakta, or whatever your name is, for taking the

time to explain all this. ***

 

You are quite welcome. *lol*

 

*** I pretty much know all you said. ***

 

Then I defer to you, and thank you for your patience with my

prattling.

 

*** Len commented: "Western Neo-Pagans often cannot grasp the fact

that Sanskrit mantra cannot be "translated" -- ... As if chanting in

English would have the same effect in performing a Puja!

 

Yvonne responded: "Sometimes I do it in Spanish. I believe the

Goddess understands all languages." ***

 

I think you're missing (and perhaps illustrating) Len's point.

Obviously, the idea of a deity whose understanding is limited to a

few human languages is patently absurd.

 

What Len said, and what I was trying to say in my post also, is

that -- in Hindu systems at least -- the primary significance of a

mantra is its vibrational quality. Its literal and symbolic meanings

are important too, of course, but the vibrational science of japa

(having been developed in and around India, using Sanskrit letters)

tends to be Sanskrit-specific.

 

Prayer is another matter altogether. There, of course, meaning is

central. And there is never any question of whether this language or

that one "works" -- ultimately, you are addressing your own essence,

and deep and complete understanding by the deity is really a given.

But mantra and prayer are not necessarily interchangeable concepts.

 

*** Yvonne wrote: "Huh? You mean turn it [i.e., anger] off?"

 

I am sorry for being unclear. My meaning was that anger is a very

simple and base emotion. Even tiny little children are already very

good at it. Controlled avoidance or alleviation of anger, on the

other hand, is a very difficult and sophisticated human emotional

accomplishment. But -- as with all other "esoteric" skills -- that

does not mean it is not worth developing.

 

DB

[Guest guest]

Interesting Quote from Meru Tantra:

 

There will be born at London English folk whose mantra for worship is

in the Phiringa (foreign) language, who will be undefeated in battle

and Lords of the World - Meru Tantra, XXIII, 17th century

 

> *** Len commented: "Western Neo-Pagans often cannot grasp the fact

> that Sanskrit mantra cannot be "translated" -- ... As if chanting

in > English would have the same effect in performing a Puja!

>

> Yvonne responded: "Sometimes I do it in Spanish. I believe the

> Goddess understands all languages." ***

>

> I think you're missing (and perhaps illustrating) Len's point.

> Obviously, the idea of a deity whose understanding is limited to a

> few human languages is patently absurd.

>

> What Len said, and what I was trying to say in my post also, is

> that -- in Hindu systems at least -- the primary significance of a

> mantra is its vibrational quality. Its literal and symbolic

meanings

> are important too, of course, but the vibrational science of japa

> (having been developed in and around India, using Sanskrit letters)

> tends to be Sanskrit-specific.

[Guest guest]

I thank Devi Bhakta for his kind and patient discussions with Yvonne on

this subject. I have one comment to add.

To continue with your analogy to teaching someone to paint: Yes,

teach the student to paint and to paint well, but do not tell her what

to paint. Ask her to study the works and methods of the great masters,

but then ask her to produce something original, from her own heart.

 

Sister Usha