Mystery of the 5M

[Guest guest]

The Mystery of the "five M".

(extract from the article)

 

One of the most essential components of doctrine and practice of Kaula-tantrism

is panchatattva or the mystery of the "five M" (panchamakara). In the context of

sadhana (religious practice) panchatattva is the main ritual, the sacrifice of

Kula and

the mystical communion with the Goddess. Doctrinally it reveals itself as a

gnosiological

matrix upon which the Body of the Godhead, macro- and microcosm are classified.

 

According to the doctrine of Tantras, the method to reach full perfection is

enjoyment of the world in love towards the Goddess. Yoni-tantra 6.25 says:

"Happiness is

achieved through enjoyment, through enjoyment liberation is achieved. Thus one

has to

devote himself completely to enjoyment". But alongside it is stressed that love

is the

most essential on this way. For instance, Meru-tantra 10.67 says: "Only that one

whose love is strong succeeds on this way of the Left"; same is stated by

Kularnava-tantra,

Parananda-sutra and other Tantras. Why enjoyment is so important? Because

enjoyment is

the means to reveal that spiritual bliss which is said to be the form of the

Absolute

manifested in body (Kularnava-tantra 5.80). And as Devi-rahasya puts it, "the

Supreme

Lady is satisfied through the worship of the taste of bliss" (Uttarakhanda

58.11). However

this path of enjoyment is opened not for everyone; Tantras underline that only

"hero", vira,

is capable of following it. Such vira possesses complete faith in himself and

God, right

knowledge and logic (saljnana and sattarka), devotion to Shakti (Goddess and

beloved

woman) and appropriate initiation into Kula lineage. Then there is only one

prescription

which he has to follow - svechchhachara, "following one's own [true] will"

(Kali-tantra

8.19). Thus Kaula-tantrism gives the same Law of Thelema as Liber AL does.

 

The doctrine of "five M" has to be set in this context. Panchamakara is the

essence of kula-yoga. It is stated in Jnanarnava-tantra 22.68 that "the union of

male and

female is the true yoga". Through the union in love one enters the transcendent

abode,

paramapada. As Shiva says in Maheshvara-tantra, "being in love is [being] above

the world".

 

Five essences of Kula, panchatattva, are five aspects of amorous union with

Shakti. Mahanirvana-tantra 5.22 insists that panchatattva is necessary in the

worship of

Her. The "five M" are that much important so Kularatnavali states that without

5M the

Goddess is never pleased.

 

Five kula-tattvas are signifying the totality of the Goddess' presence. It can

be put that the tantric communion exists in five forms: wine, meat, fish, mudra

and

maithuna. In sanskrit all these words start from letter "m", thus the title

panchamakara.

Out of these five two last are left without translation; the reason is that

their meanings are

several. Mudra commonly stands for fried grain (which symbolise that seeds of

karmas are

burned in the fire of knowledge), but original sense must have been "sexual

partner". This

reading is supported not only by buddhist tradition but also by the tantric

etymology of

the term: "that which brings joy is called mudra". Final makara, maithuna, is a

sexual

communion and its result, emission of secretions.

>From one side the ritual usage of 5M was the act of antinomianism, transgression

of socio-religious law of Smriti. Like that Niruttara-tantra suggests to reject

vedic prescriptions. However this is merely surface of this ritual; its essence

is

much deeper.

 

Symbolically five tattvas represent five aspects of the Goddess, five parts of

Her Body. In their succession 5M constitute the method of tantric yoga. Wine

(madya)

symbolises the mystical intoxication of love-feeling, prema-rasa, which occurs

as a result

of awakening of the heart under the impact of divine grace (anugraha-shakti).

Wine

corresponds to Shakti, feminine side of the Divinity. Meat on the other side

stands for Its

masculine side, Shiva. It symbolises awareness, inner silence, contemplation

(dhyana).

Wine and meat are Shakti and Shiva (see Kularnava-tantra 5.78), they are Nuit

and Hadit.

The verse of Kularnava further reads: "The one who enjoys [their union] is

himself

Bhairava, and the bliss springing up from their union is Liberation". Bhairava

or Hor of

Liber AL is symbolised by a fish (matsya or mina), dragon or serpent. This

dragon is

arising, it is a personification of arohana-shakti, energy of uplifting. As

Shiva-sutra says:

"Bhairava is raising". This is also sankshobha, sexual arousing of the Goddess

(see

Niruttara-tantra 5.19). Then, the bliss of union is mudra, "that which brings

joy". Mudra is

Maat and Babalon, Scarlet Woman and the lower Shekhinah of Kabbalah.

 

The four elements described are corresponding to the four letters of the Holy

Name of God, four sphiroth, four aeons of Liber AL and four directions. They are

the

four aspects of fifth tattva, which is above all. Maithuna represents the return

to the primal

Unity, which is the state of the Godhead. It is the perfect union of man and

woman in

love-taste, mahasukha of buddhist Tantras. While wine and meat correspond to the

descent of Shakti, graceful power of the Divine, and fish and mudra - to the

consequent

accent of lower kundalini, maithuna is samarasya, "merging in one taste". It is

in maithuna,

sexual union with shakti, that the highest bliss, paramananda, is realised. As

Tantras say,

"happiness that manifests in the union has the quality of bliss supreme"

(samyoge jAyate

saukhyaM paramAnandalakShaNam).

 

According to the teaching of Kula, the ritual of 5M ought to be performed only

when one has an authority (adhikara) given by the Goddess and guru and when he

has love

towards his shakti, woman. Tantras underline that woman has to be viewed as an

incarnation of the Goddess (for instance, see Mahakala-samhita Guhyakali-khanda

10.1663). Moreover, Annadakalpa-tantra 15.46 goes as far as to say that "one can

reject

his mother and father, one can reject Shiva and Vishnu, one can even reject the

Goddess -

but never his beloved woman".

 

"That Supreme Lady Shakti, who is glorified as [the Giver] of Liberation, She is

manifested in the form of a woman" (Bhutashuddhi-tantra 7.17).

 

Love is the law, love under will.

[Guest guest]

How does this system work if the worshipper is female?

Or gay?

 

-- Len/ Kalipadma

 

 

--- Arjuna Taradasa <bhagatirtha wrote:

> The Mystery of the "five M".

> (extract from the article)

>

> One of the most essential components of doctrine and

> practice of Kaula-tantrism

> is panchatattva or the mystery of the "five M"

> (panchamakara). In the context of

> sadhana (religious practice) panchatattva is the

> main ritual, the sacrifice of Kula and

> the mystical communion with the Goddess. Doctrinally

> it reveals itself as a gnosiological

> matrix upon which the Body of the Godhead, macro-

> and microcosm are classified.

>

> According to the doctrine of Tantras, the method to

> reach full perfection is

> enjoyment of the world in love towards the Goddess.

> Yoni-tantra 6.25 says: "Happiness is

> achieved through enjoyment, through enjoyment

> liberation is achieved. Thus one has to

> devote himself completely to enjoyment". But

> alongside it is stressed that love is the

> most essential on this way. For instance,

> Meru-tantra 10.67 says: "Only that one

> whose love is strong succeeds on this way of the

> Left"; same is stated by Kularnava-tantra,

> Parananda-sutra and other Tantras. Why enjoyment is

> so important? Because enjoyment is

> the means to reveal that spiritual bliss which is

> said to be the form of the Absolute

> manifested in body (Kularnava-tantra 5.80). And as

> Devi-rahasya puts it, "the Supreme

> Lady is satisfied through the worship of the taste

> of bliss" (Uttarakhanda 58.11). However

> this path of enjoyment is opened not for everyone;

> Tantras underline that only "hero", vira,

> is capable of following it. Such vira possesses

> complete faith in himself and God, right

> knowledge and logic (saljnana and sattarka),

> devotion to Shakti (Goddess and beloved

> woman) and appropriate initiation into Kula lineage.

> Then there is only one prescription

> which he has to follow - svechchhachara, "following

> one's own [true] will" (Kali-tantra

> 8.19). Thus Kaula-tantrism gives the same Law of

> Thelema as Liber AL does.

>

> The doctrine of "five M" has to be set in this

> context. Panchamakara is the

> essence of kula-yoga. It is stated in

> Jnanarnava-tantra 22.68 that "the union of male and

> female is the true yoga". Through the union in love

> one enters the transcendent abode,

> paramapada. As Shiva says in Maheshvara-tantra,

> "being in love is [being] above

> the world".

>

> Five essences of Kula, panchatattva, are five

> aspects of amorous union with

> Shakti. Mahanirvana-tantra 5.22 insists that

> panchatattva is necessary in the worship of

> Her. The "five M" are that much important so

> Kularatnavali states that without 5M the

> Goddess is never pleased.

>

> Five kula-tattvas are signifying the totality of the

> Goddess' presence. It can

> be put that the tantric communion exists in five

> forms: wine, meat, fish, mudra and

> maithuna. In sanskrit all these words start from

> letter "m", thus the title panchamakara.

> Out of these five two last are left without

> translation; the reason is that their meanings are

> several. Mudra commonly stands for fried grain

> (which symbolise that seeds of karmas are

> burned in the fire of knowledge), but original sense

> must have been "sexual partner". This

> reading is supported not only by buddhist tradition

> but also by the tantric etymology of

> the term: "that which brings joy is called mudra".

> Final makara, maithuna, is a sexual

> communion and its result, emission of secretions.

>

> From one side the ritual usage of 5M was the act of

> antinomianism, transgression

> of socio-religious law of Smriti. Like that

> Niruttara-tantra suggests to reject

> vedic prescriptions. However this is merely surface

> of this ritual; its essence is

> much deeper.

>

> Symbolically five tattvas represent five aspects of

> the Goddess, five parts of

> Her Body. In their succession 5M constitute the

> method of tantric yoga. Wine (madya)

> symbolises the mystical intoxication of

> love-feeling, prema-rasa, which occurs as a result

> of awakening of the heart under the impact of divine

> grace (anugraha-shakti). Wine

> corresponds to Shakti, feminine side of the

> Divinity. Meat on the other side stands for Its

> masculine side, Shiva. It symbolises awareness,

> inner silence, contemplation (dhyana).

> Wine and meat are Shakti and Shiva (see

> Kularnava-tantra 5.78), they are Nuit and Hadit.

> The verse of Kularnava further reads: "The one who

> enjoys [their union] is himself

> Bhairava, and the bliss springing up from their

> union is Liberation". Bhairava or Hor of

> Liber AL is symbolised by a fish (matsya or mina),

> dragon or serpent. This dragon is

> arising, it is a personification of arohana-shakti,

> energy of uplifting. As Shiva-sutra says:

> "Bhairava is raising". This is also sankshobha,

> sexual arousing of the Goddess (see

> Niruttara-tantra 5.19). Then, the bliss of union is

> mudra, "that which brings joy". Mudra is

> Maat and Babalon, Scarlet Woman and the lower

> Shekhinah of Kabbalah.

>

> The four elements described are corresponding to the

> four letters of the Holy

> Name of God, four sphiroth, four aeons of Liber AL

> and four directions. They are the

> four aspects of fifth tattva, which is above all.

> Maithuna represents the return to the primal

> Unity, which is the state of the Godhead. It is the

> perfect union of man and woman in

> love-taste, mahasukha of buddhist Tantras. While

> wine and meat correspond to the

> descent of Shakti, graceful power of the Divine, and

> fish and mudra - to the consequent

> accent of lower kundalini, maithuna is samarasya,

> "merging in one taste". It is in maithuna,

> sexual union with shakti, that the highest bliss,

> paramananda, is realised. As Tantras say,

> "happiness that manifests in the union has the

> quality of bliss supreme" (samyoge jAyate

> saukhyaM paramAnandalakShaNam).

>

> According to the teaching of Kula, the ritual of 5M

> ought to be performed only

> when one has an authority (adhikara) given by the

> Goddess and guru and when he has love

> towards his shakti, woman. Tantras underline that

> woman has to be viewed as an

> incarnation of the Goddess (for instance, see

> Mahakala-samhita Guhyakali-khanda

> 10.1663). Moreover, Annadakalpa-tantra 15.46 goes as

> far as to say that "one can reject

> his mother and father, one can reject Shiva and

> Vishnu, one can even reject the Goddess -

> but never his beloved woman".

>

> "That Supreme Lady Shakti, who is glorified as [the

> Giver] of Liberation, She is

> manifested in the form of a woman"

> (Bhutashuddhi-tantra 7.17).

>

> Love is the law, love under will.

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

There's a discussion on the SS Webpage about this:

 

"Q: How [is] a female aspirant [...] supposed to approach Tantric

Shaktism when virtually all of the extant scriptures appear to have

been written by and for male sadhaks?"

 

and

 

"Q: What are the relationship between Tantra and alternative (gay,

lesbian) forms of sexuality?"

 

I couldn't extract a one-line summary for the first question, but

here's a soundbite for the second:

 

"[Devi] selects the partners and you cannot protest. if you protest

you are ineligile. [....] Your sexual preferences are irrelevant."

 

http://www.shaktisadhana.org/Resource/Messageboard/MessageBoard5.html

 

I believe that I've read that the O.T.O./ceremonial magician take on

Tantra includes homosexual sacramental sex. I'll try to dig up the

reference later if I have time.

 

, Len Rosenberg

<kalipadma108> wrote:

>

> How does this system [the 5 M's] work if the worshipper is female?

> Or gay?

>

> -- Len/ Kalipadma

>

> --- Arjuna Taradasa <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote:

>

> > The Mystery of the "five M".

> > (extract from the article)

> > [....]

[Guest guest]

What I glean from this is that, no matter how you or others define

your sexuality, the spiritual nature of Tantric sexuality is

available between certain people at certain times, regardless of such

definitions. The only reason it would be necessary to include

descriptions of homosexual acts is so that people have guidance

and/or affirmation, not to speak to "the other half" externally, but

to speak to each of us, wholly and fully.

 

It reminds me of a beautiful poem by Gurumayi which I paraphrase

below, and will post in full later:

 

No matter how we judge the course of love

It is not judged by our judgments.

This is why the sages tell us become love.

It does no good to say

This is how love should be.

This is how love can be.

Become love as it is.

 

MAV

 

 

, "msbauju" <msbauju> wrote:

>

> There's a discussion on the SS Webpage about this:

>

> "Q: How [is] a female aspirant [...] supposed to approach Tantric

> Shaktism when virtually all of the extant scriptures appear to have

> been written by and for male sadhaks?"

>

> and

>

> "Q: What are the relationship between Tantra and alternative (gay,

> lesbian) forms of sexuality?"

>

> I couldn't extract a one-line summary for the first question, but

> here's a soundbite for the second:

>

> "[Devi] selects the partners and you cannot protest. if you protest

> you are ineligile. [....] Your sexual preferences are irrelevant."

>

>

http://www.shaktisadhana.org/Resource/Messageboard/MessageBoard5.html

>

> I believe that I've read that the O.T.O./ceremonial magician take

on

> Tantra includes homosexual sacramental sex. I'll try to dig up the

> reference later if I have time.

>

> , Len Rosenberg

> <kalipadma108> wrote:

> >

> > How does this system [the 5 M's] work if the worshipper is female?

> > Or gay?

> >

> > -- Len/ Kalipadma

> >

> > --- Arjuna Taradasa <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote:

> >

> > > The Mystery of the "five M".

> > > (extract from the article)

> > > [....]

[Guest guest]

Hi Mary Ann,

 

If we were to substitute the phrase "sacred sexuality" or "sacramental

sex" for the word "Tantric" in the paragraph below, does the altered

paragraph still capture your meaning, or is your meaning firmly tied to

the specific word "Tantric"?

 

, "Mary Ann" <buttercookie61>

wrote:

>[....] no matter how you or others define

> your sexuality, the spiritual nature of Tantric sexuality is

> available between certain people at certain times, [....]

[Guest guest]

YEs, probably so. I think highly enough of the Hindu spiritual

sciences/philosophies that I would apply it as the same thing. However,

I I recognize Hindu purists may consider this to be an abomination and

a lack of respect for their works; I think it's just carrying on the

spirit of the work without dogmatic trappings, i.e. not mistaking the

raft for the shore, or the journey, etc.

 

, "msbauju" <msbauju> wrote:

>

> Hi Mary Ann,

>

> If we were to substitute the phrase "sacred sexuality"

or "sacramental

> sex" for the word "Tantric" in the paragraph below, does the altered

> paragraph still capture your meaning, or is your meaning firmly tied

to

> the specific word "Tantric"?

>

> , "Mary Ann"

<buttercookie61>

> wrote:

> >[....] no matter how you or others define

> > your sexuality, the spiritual nature of Tantric sexuality is

> > available between certain people at certain times, [....]

[Guest guest]

, "msbauju" <msbauju> wrote:

> [discussion on females in Tantra; alternative sexuality]

>

>http://www.shaktisadhana.org/Resource/Messageboard/MessageBoard5.html

>

> I believe that I've read that

> the O.T.O./ceremonial magician take on

> Tantra includes homosexual sacramental sex.

> I'll try to dig up the

> reference later if I have time.

> > [....]

> > --- Arjuna Taradasa <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote:

> >

> > > The Mystery of the "five M".

> > > (extract from the article)

> > > [....]

 

Here's the reference, with a few quotes:

 

THE OMNIPOTENT OOM

Tantra and Its Impact on Modern Western Esotericism

Hugh B. Urban

Ohio State University

 

http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeIII/HTML/Oom.html

 

"The O.T.O. developed a system of nine degrees (later expanded to

eleven), the first six of which were more conventional Masonic

initiations. The seventh, eight and ninth, however, focused

respectively upon the theory of sex magic and on the techniques of

auto- and hetero-sexual magic. Homosexual intercourse also appears to

have played a central role in the rituals."

 

"Crowley's most intense period of experimentation in sexual magic

appears to have begun in 1914, during his "Paris Workings." Together

with his homosexual lover, the poet Victor Neuberg, Crowley engaged

in a variety of sexual rites intended to achieve both spiritual and

material ends – both the primary goal of "invoking the gods Jupiter

and Mercury and the secondary one of getting these gods to supply

Crowley and Neuberg with money". […], Crowley saw in orgasm (as in

drug experience) a means to create "openings or breakages of

consciousness" that give the soul access to supersensual and ecstatic

states. [….]

 

The purpose of these operations of High Magick Art was to obtain

priestly power and, on a lower plane, money. It would be a mistake to

think that the celebrants were performing the rites for sexual

pleasure. The aim was congress with gods."

 

[....]

 

"[....] [T]o what degree is his [Crowley's] magic genuinely based on

Hindu Tantra and to what degree is it his own creative re-

interpretation? [....] [There are] profound differences between

Crowleyian sex magic and Indian Tantric techniques. Not only did

Crowley's magic involve homosexual intercourse – something almost

never found in Tantric rituals; but […] [Crowley's ritual work, like

the O.T.O.'s, was] based on the release of semen and the creative

power of the emitted seed [which could potentially produce a magical

fetus or spiritual child]."

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the clarification.

 

, "Mary Ann" <buttercookie61>

wrote:

> Yes, probably so. [....]

>

> , "msbauju" <msbauju> wrote:

> >

> >> > If we were to substitute the phrase

> > >"sacred sexuality"

> or "sacramental

> > sex" for the word "Tantric" in the paragraph below,

> > [does it still work?]

> > , "Mary Ann"

> <buttercookie61>

> > wrote:

> > >[....] no matter how you or others define

> > > your sexuality, the spiritual nature of Tantric sexuality is

> > > available between certain people at certain times, [....]

[Guest guest]

Ouch. Try Neosporin.

 

, "Arjuna Taradasa"

<bhagatirtha@m...> wrote:

 

*** Doctrinally it reveals itself as a gnosiological matrix ***

[Guest guest]

DB, WHY?

 

It is a kind of antibiotic...

 

 

, "devi_bhakta" <devi_bhakta> wrote:

> Ouch. Try Neosporin.

>

> , "Arjuna Taradasa"

> <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote:

>

> *** Doctrinally it reveals itself as a gnosiological matrix ***

[Guest guest]

93

 

There is no shakta-sadhana for gays LOL.

 

For female it works with slight differences, but essentially same. For female it

is more advaitic

so to say .

 

A.

 

, Len Rosenberg <kalipadma108> wrote:

>

> How does this system work if the worshipper is female?

> Or gay?

[Guest guest]

93

 

Yes it does exist in western magical systems such as OTO or in hetherodox sufism

and

kabbalah. Among hindu traditions there are certain gay practices in vaishnavism

and

shaivism. But not is kaula-shaktism - for rather obvious reason.

 

BTW, in OTO system 11 degree can be practiced in hetherosexual way also, it is

not gay per

se.

 

A.

 

 

, "msbauju" <msbauju> wrote:

> I believe that I've read that the O.T.O./ceremonial magician take on

> Tantra includes homosexual sacramental sex.

[Guest guest]

"Shakti Puja is considered to be the life and soul of Sri Chakra Puja.

The adepts can perform all parts of the puja to Shakti, a living

person. Shakti could be any lovable person, male, female, or your own

self." - Amritananda

 

, "Arjuna Taradasa"

<bhagatirtha@m...> wrote:

> There is no shakta-sadhana for gays LOL.

> , Len Rosenberg

<kalipadma108> wrote:

> >

> > How does this system work if the worshipper is female?

> > Or gay?

[Guest guest]

Why does anyone get the idea that there is no shakta sadhana for gays?

Is there something scriptural, or something missing scripturally, that

seems to indicate that?

 

, "devi_bhakta" <devi_bhakta>

wrote:

> "Shakti Puja is considered to be the life and soul of Sri Chakra

Puja.

> The adepts can perform all parts of the puja to Shakti, a living

> person. Shakti could be any lovable person, male, female, or your own

> self." - Amritananda

>

> , "Arjuna Taradasa"

> <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote:

>

> > There is no shakta-sadhana for gays LOL.

>

> > , Len Rosenberg

> <kalipadma108> wrote:

> > >

> > > How does this system work if the worshipper is female?

> > > Or gay?

[Guest guest]

I think Amritananda is saying just the opposite.

 

, "Mary Ann"

<buttercookie61> wrote:

> Why does anyone get the idea that there is no shakta sadhana for

gays?

> Is there something scriptural, or something missing scripturally,

that

> seems to indicate that?

> , "devi_bhakta"

<devi_bhakta>

> wrote:

> > "Shakti Puja is considered to be the life and soul of Sri Chakra

> Puja.

> > The adepts can perform all parts of the puja to Shakti, a living

> > person. Shakti could be any lovable person, male, female, or

your own

> > self." - Amritananda

> > , "Arjuna Taradasa"

> > <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote:

> >

> > > There is no shakta-sadhana for gays LOL.

> > > , Len Rosenberg

> > <kalipadma108> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > How does this system work if the worshipper is female?

> > > > Or gay?

[Guest guest]

I know that Amrita is saying that, and I appreciate that very much.

But I have felt that actual texts (like hathayoga pradipika), and

Hindu scriptures, do NOT include sexuality as wholistic within one

person (a la Ardhanari), and are specific regarding heterosexual

practices externally, either Tantric, or householders. So I am just

asking - is this true, regarding strict scriptural (or other

respected text) references?

 

 

, "devi_bhakta"

<devi_bhakta> wrote:

> I think Amritananda is saying just the opposite.

>

> , "Mary Ann"

> <buttercookie61> wrote:

>

> > Why does anyone get the idea that there is no shakta sadhana for

> gays?

> > Is there something scriptural, or something missing scripturally,

> that

> > seems to indicate that?

>

> > , "devi_bhakta"

> <devi_bhakta>

> > wrote:

> > > "Shakti Puja is considered to be the life and soul of Sri

Chakra

> > Puja.

> > > The adepts can perform all parts of the puja to Shakti, a

living

> > > person. Shakti could be any lovable person, male, female, or

> your own

> > > self." - Amritananda

>

> > > , "Arjuna Taradasa"

> > > <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote:

> > >

> > > > There is no shakta-sadhana for gays LOL.

>

> > > > , Len Rosenberg

> > > <kalipadma108> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > How does this system work if the worshipper is female?

> > > > > Or gay?

[Guest guest]

93

 

U know my love and respect to Amrita , so i accept his view.

 

But traditionally still the situation is like what i told - there is no gay

variant of shaktopasana.

And I believe there are no descriptions of it in any Tantra.

 

Best regards,

A.

 

, "devi_bhakta" <devi_bhakta> wrote:

> "Shakti Puja is considered to be the life and soul of Sri Chakra Puja.

> The adepts can perform all parts of the puja to Shakti, a living

> person. Shakti could be any lovable person, male, female, or your own

> self." - Amritananda

[Guest guest]

93

 

, "Mary Ann" <buttercookie61> wrote:

> Why does anyone get the idea that there is no shakta sadhana for gays?

> Is there something scriptural, or something missing scripturally, that

> seems to indicate that?

 

1. There is no reference in Tantras describing shakta sadhana for gays in any

way.

 

2. There is a prohibition against making kula-chakra without at least one woman.

 

3. It is stated that sadhana without a woman is useless.

 

Of course we can interpret this and that and turn anything upside down. But that

will be an

invention - even if it really works. The only thing i want to say that there is

no place for

gay culture in traditional kaulism.

It is not a question of inferiority of gays but ONLY of compatibility with

particular tradition

and method. Being gay doesn't make one incapable to become saint.

 

Gays i believe can go into aghora-shaivism or vaishnavism, there it is of no

trouble .

 

Love is the law, love under will.

A.

[Guest guest]

As far as I know, Hindu scripture doesn't address the issue. As in

the West, homosexuality -- while not necessarily condemned -- was not

until recently considered an actual "lifestyle choice." It was

certainly out there; people were aware of it; but in the main it was

something that took place behind closed doors -- it was nobody's

business but those involved. Marriages, then as largely now, were not

intended as romantic matches, but as interfamilial and social

contracts. If she happened to prefer ladies, or he happened to prefer

gentlemen ... well, that was something they could discretely arrange

on the side as they wished -- so long as they also fulfilled the

dharma of upholding the contract. But no one was writing instruction

books on the Tantric ritual implications of such arrangements.

 

The thing is, it doesn't even matter. Hindu scriptures have never

been seen as carved-in-granite laws for the ages. Each generation

elucidates them anew, building on past elucidations and adapted for

the times. Historical longevity -- i.e., whatever was said first in

time is more correct -- does not really apply here. Whether an

interpretation was made a millennium ago, five centuries ago, 50

years ago, or last night doesn't really matter; only the authority

that you place in the sage matters.

 

So the Tantras did not arise in a world where homosexuality was

considered a legitimate "lifestyle choice" -- but Amritananda's

elucidations were made in a world where such arrangements are

increasingly commonplace. So, accordingly, he addressed it. If you

accept his teachings, that is all that matters. If you do not, you

can surely find other modern sages who will insist (as do the various

traditionalists of other religions) that it's an abomination against

nature. Whatever floats your boat. But that's the way it works.

 

Aim MAtangyai NamaH

 

 

, "Mary Ann"

<buttercookie61> wrote:

> I know that Amrita is saying that, and I appreciate that very much.

> But I have felt that actual texts (like hathayoga pradipika), and

> Hindu scriptures, do NOT include sexuality as wholistic within one

> person (a la Ardhanari), and are specific regarding heterosexual

> practices externally, either Tantric, or householders. So I am just

> asking - is this true, regarding strict scriptural (or other

> respected text) references?

>

>

> , "devi_bhakta"

> <devi_bhakta> wrote:

> > I think Amritananda is saying just the opposite.

> >

> > , "Mary Ann"

> > <buttercookie61> wrote:

> >

> > > Why does anyone get the idea that there is no shakta sadhana

for

> > gays?

> > > Is there something scriptural, or something missing

scripturally,

> > that

> > > seems to indicate that?

> >

> > > , "devi_bhakta"

> > <devi_bhakta>

> > > wrote:

> > > > "Shakti Puja is considered to be the life and soul of Sri

> Chakra

> > > Puja.

> > > > The adepts can perform all parts of the puja to Shakti, a

> living

> > > > person. Shakti could be any lovable person, male, female, or

> > your own

> > > > self." - Amritananda

> >

> > > > , "Arjuna Taradasa"

> > > > <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > > There is no shakta-sadhana for gays LOL.

> >

> > > > > , Len Rosenberg

> > > > <kalipadma108> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > How does this system work if the worshipper is female?

> > > > > > Or gay?

[Guest guest]

I think there is some confusion here. I did come accross some auto erotic

methodology in some palm leaf once. I do not remember where.

 

The actual positio, as I understand - and my understaning is not perfect or

authoritative - is to reach the immediate pre ogasmic state and to hold teh

position there and then go into meditative practices. This can be achieved in

hetro; gay or auto erotic states.

 

But then how many can reach that state and hold it there for any length of time?

very very few. So I feel it is better to concentrate on other practices til you

are ready. When you are ready teh teacher and the methodology to practice in

harmony with your particular persuation will appear. Have no doubt on that.

 

Please forgive if I am being foolish.

 

 

Arjuna Taradasa <bhagatirtha wrote:

93

 

, "Mary Ann" <buttercookie61> wrote:

> Why does anyone get the idea that there is no shakta sadhana for gays?

> Is there something scriptural, or something missing scripturally, that

> seems to indicate that?

 

1. There is no reference in Tantras describing shakta sadhana for gays in any

way.

 

2. There is a prohibition against making kula-chakra without at least one woman.

 

3. It is stated that sadhana without a woman is useless.

 

Of course we can interpret this and that and turn anything upside down. But that

will be an

invention - even if it really works. The only thing i want to say that there is

no place for

gay culture in traditional kaulism.

It is not a question of inferiority of gays but ONLY of compatibility with

particular tradition

and method. Being gay doesn't make one incapable to become saint.

 

Gays i believe can go into aghora-shaivism or vaishnavism, there it is of no

trouble .

 

Love is the law, love under will.

A.

 

 

 

 

 

 

/

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Namaste to all

 

About this issue...

 

I would fully accept what Sri Amritananda would saythe teachings in the past ie

from scriptures may not have included the preference people would make in the

future

 

About homosexuals , His holiness Dalai lama has said, that they might be

identifying themselve with there previous birth where they might be of the

opposite gender

 

If we carefully analyse what Sri amritananda's statement, The shakthi can be

ourselve, can a estimate be made of how much we love ourselve than someother

person have been the opposite gender

[Guest guest]

Hi DB:

 

Not having human wholeness recognized externally matters in that it

makes it that much more difficult for people -- esp. those who are

not valued externally -- to recognize their self-worth, the value of

their lives, and what they have to contribute to the world. The

caste system, racism in the west, sexism, compulsory heteroxuality

in all cultures' practices and religions, the imposition of the

heterosexual lifestyle "choice" that marriage has been, whether more

recently as a romanticized ideal, or in its longstanding tradition

as a means of carrying on lineage or family property rights, these

are externals imposed in ways that do not honor human wholeness.

 

I think when matters of the heart are only handled "discreetly

behind closed doors" it says that the heart is something to hide,

not to admit to, something shameful. Or, possibly, something one

must "protect" by not allowing the world to see. Either way, the

cycle of imposed false externals continues.

 

This is why the sages tell us:

Become love. ...

Become love as it is.

 

And then bring that love out into the world! (I added that part

myself

 

Namaste,

Mary Ann

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, "devi_bhakta"

<devi_bhakta> wrote:

> As far as I know, Hindu scripture doesn't address the issue. As in

> the West, homosexuality -- while not necessarily condemned -- was

not

> until recently considered an actual "lifestyle choice." It was

> certainly out there; people were aware of it; but in the main it

was

> something that took place behind closed doors -- it was nobody's

> business but those involved. Marriages, then as largely now, were

not

> intended as romantic matches, but as interfamilial and social

> contracts. If she happened to prefer ladies, or he happened to

prefer

> gentlemen ... well, that was something they could discretely

arrange

> on the side as they wished -- so long as they also fulfilled the

> dharma of upholding the contract. But no one was writing

instruction

> books on the Tantric ritual implications of such arrangements.

>

> The thing is, it doesn't even matter. Hindu scriptures have never

> been seen as carved-in-granite laws for the ages. Each generation

> elucidates them anew, building on past elucidations and adapted

for

> the times. Historical longevity -- i.e., whatever was said first

in

> time is more correct -- does not really apply here. Whether an

> interpretation was made a millennium ago, five centuries ago, 50

> years ago, or last night doesn't really matter; only the authority

> that you place in the sage matters.

>

> So the Tantras did not arise in a world where homosexuality was

> considered a legitimate "lifestyle choice" -- but Amritananda's

> elucidations were made in a world where such arrangements are

> increasingly commonplace. So, accordingly, he addressed it. If you

> accept his teachings, that is all that matters. If you do not, you

> can surely find other modern sages who will insist (as do the

various

> traditionalists of other religions) that it's an abomination

against

> nature. Whatever floats your boat. But that's the way it works.

>

> Aim MAtangyai NamaH

>

>

> , "Mary Ann"

> <buttercookie61> wrote:

>

> > I know that Amrita is saying that, and I appreciate that very

much.

> > But I have felt that actual texts (like hathayoga pradipika),

and

> > Hindu scriptures, do NOT include sexuality as wholistic within

one

> > person (a la Ardhanari), and are specific regarding heterosexual

> > practices externally, either Tantric, or householders. So I am

just

> > asking - is this true, regarding strict scriptural (or other

> > respected text) references?

> >

> >

> > , "devi_bhakta"

> > <devi_bhakta> wrote:

> > > I think Amritananda is saying just the opposite.

> > >

> > > , "Mary Ann"

> > > <buttercookie61> wrote:

> > >

> > > > Why does anyone get the idea that there is no shakta sadhana

> for

> > > gays?

> > > > Is there something scriptural, or something missing

> scripturally,

> > > that

> > > > seems to indicate that?

> > >

> > > > , "devi_bhakta"

> > > <devi_bhakta>

> > > > wrote:

> > > > > "Shakti Puja is considered to be the life and soul of Sri

> > Chakra

> > > > Puja.

> > > > > The adepts can perform all parts of the puja to Shakti, a

> > living

> > > > > person. Shakti could be any lovable person, male, female,

or

> > > your own

> > > > > self." - Amritananda

> > >

> > > > > , "Arjuna Taradasa"

> > > > > <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > > There is no shakta-sadhana for gays LOL.

> > >

> > > > > > , Len Rosenberg

> > > > > <kalipadma108> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > How does this system work if the worshipper is female?

> > > > > > > Or gay?

[Guest guest]

Well, there is always a woman there, if you recognize that male and

female are one within each being, like the Ardhanari. So I think kochu

and Amrita must be right about this

> Arjuna Taradasa <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote:

> 93

>

> 2. There is a prohibition against making kula-chakra without at

least one woman.

>

> 3. It is stated that sadhana without a woman is useless.

[Guest guest]

Hi Mary Ann:

 

You wrote: *** Not having human wholeness recognized externally

matters in that it makes it that much more difficult for people ...

to recognize their self-worth, the value of their lives, and what

they have to contribute to the world. ... [C]ompulsory heteroxuality

[and other acts of societal discrimination] are externals, imposed in

ways that do not honor human wholeness. ***

 

Precisely. Which is why, I think, Amritananda -- in the brief passage

I quoted -- dismisses human gender and sexual-orientation issues

outright: So that people don't get bogged down in parsing

such "externals" at the expense of more spiritually productive

endeavors.

 

*** I think when matters of the heart are only handled "discreetly

behind closed doors" it says that the heart is something to hide, not

to admit to, something shameful. Or, possibly, something one

must "protect" by not allowing the world to see. Either way, the

cycle of imposed false externals continues. ***

 

Right. And as societies evolve beyond these "false externals," so new

elaborations and clarifications of the traditions are called for. A

few advanced souls are already responding, as Amrita did in his

statement, "Shakti could be any lovable person, male, female, or your

own self." Or our own Kochu, in his statement, "This can be achieved

in hetero, gay or auto-erotic states." Two simple sentences, both

essentially saying "Stop wringing your hands over these externals,

and get back to your sadhana!"

 

Aim MAtangyai NamaH

[Guest guest]

93

 

Accepted

 

, sankara menon <kochu1tz> wrote:

> I think there is some confusion here. I did come accross some auto erotic

methodology in

some palm leaf once. I do not remember where.

>

> The actual positio, as I understand - and my understaning is not perfect or

authoritative -

is to reach the immediate pre ogasmic state and to hold teh position there and

then go into

meditative practices. This can be achieved in hetro; gay or auto erotic states.

>

> But then how many can reach that state and hold it there for any length of

time? very very

few. So I feel it is better to concentrate on other practices til you are ready.

When you are

ready teh teacher and the methodology to practice in harmony with your

particular

persuation will appear. Have no doubt on that.