Guest guest Posted September 2, 2005 Report Share Posted September 2, 2005 Half Knowledge is more dangerous than no knowledge at all. It is better to abstain from tantric type of pujas if you do not known the proper way to do it. Stick to devotional type of rituals which do not cause trouble and use tantric type of puja only with the guidance of a competent teacher. Not considering the inward preparation of the Sadhaka which may take years - the tantric type of Ritual has to contain some standard elements to avoid Problems. None of these elements are mentionend in the advice given by panditji, nonetheless "high voltage" tantric bijas and visualizations are used. This combination is dangerous. A tantric type of puja is tapping "high voltage" therefore preparation must include cleansing of the place and the worshipper and the materials of worship isolation / filtering of earth energies by special yantras and asanas. Binding of the directions, Calling upon protectors of the earth, construction of the power field and its protectors to allow the absorption and projection of forces. Calling upon the guru-lineage, Preparation of the body by nyasa,offering to disturbing spirits, these are the main elements that should be present in every tantric type of puja that aims to achieve a result. Only if these things are done the deities force can be safely channelled. Now do you go and blame the Gouverment for providing high voltage if you get a shock because of wrong handling of the wire? Neither should Hanuman or Laxmi be blamend for the problems that arise by practising without the guidance of a teacher and having half knowledge only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2005 Report Share Posted September 2, 2005 I saw this painting, Messenger in the Wind, by Mexian artist Rufino Tamayo, months ago and felt like it really spoke to me. The comments made below about high voltage, who gets blamed for crossed wires, etc. brought it to mind. I did some internet research trying to find information on the artist, and the most interesting thing I found at that point was a schoolgirl's comments on what she felt the message of the painting, or of the angel in it, is. This was the best link I could find for the painting; it's beautiful but the renderings on line don't do it justice. http://www.wmich.edu/dialogues/texts/selectedpoemsofrosariocastellanos ..htm Here are the girl's comments: http://www.humanities.uci.edu/hot/journal/student/display_one.php? recid=852 I must say that I still prefer a message of love and compassion over mechanical renderings, mathematics, and physics. Humans need to be careful with their babies. , "mahahradanatha" <mahahradanatha> wrote: > Half Knowledge is more dangerous than no knowledge at all. > > It is better to abstain from tantric type of pujas if you do not known > the proper way to do it. > > Stick to devotional type of rituals which do not cause trouble and use > tantric type of puja only with the guidance of a competent teacher. > > Not considering the inward preparation of the Sadhaka which may take > years - the tantric type of Ritual has to contain some standard > elements to avoid Problems. > None of these elements are mentionend in the advice given by panditji, > nonetheless "high voltage" tantric bijas and visualizations are used. > This combination is dangerous. > > A tantric type of puja is tapping "high voltage" therefore preparation > must include cleansing of the place and the worshipper and the > materials of worship isolation / filtering of earth energies by special > yantras and asanas. > Binding of the directions, Calling upon protectors of the earth, > construction of the power field and its protectors to allow the > absorption and projection of forces. Calling upon the guru-lineage, > Preparation of the body by nyasa,offering to disturbing spirits, these > are the main elements that should be present in every tantric type of > puja that aims to achieve a result. > Only if these things are done the deities force can be safely > channelled. > > Now do you go and blame the Gouverment for providing high voltage if > you get a shock because of wrong handling of the wire? Neither should > Hanuman or Laxmi be blamend for the problems that arise by practising > without the guidance of a teacher and having half knowledge only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2005 Report Share Posted September 2, 2005 Hi Mary Ann: I liked your comment: *** I must say that I still prefer a message of love and compassion over mechanical renderings, mathematics, and physics. Humans need to be careful with their babies. *** As you know, I've used Maharadanatha's simile before -- the one about certain yantras and pujas being the equivalent of high-voltage machines. And so, yeah, I agree with him to a certain extent. But I have to say, the sorts of warnings he is tossing your way are a bit much for the occasion. Like a teacher who uses intimidation to cow students into obedience, it is 95% hot air and melodramatics, and only about 5% sincerely well-meaning advice. Though there are exceptions to every rule, in general you need to be a pretty damned advanced sadhak to get anywhere near accessing the level of power he's talking about. Sure, a baby could conceivably crawl past multiple security posts and enter the core control center of a nuclear power plant and start switching switches and pushing buttons -- but the chances that any of these actions would ever result in a meltdown or even a irregularity of power flow are infinitesimal. Not only are the baby's actions random (and randomness does not count for much in Tantra), the baby also lacks the security codes (in Tantra, the equivalent would be the oral initiatory overlay) that authorized personnel would need to take the really important actions. So am I calling you a baby? Not at all; I have no inkling of how advanced your sadhana might be. That is between you and Devi, eh? Am I calling myself an important "authorized personnel"? No way, I would never presume as much. Am I saying that Maharadanatha is *not* authorized personnel? Again, the answer is no. He is who and what he is, and I wish him well. His advice does appear somewhat overwrought and self-important, but it's hard to read the emotional content of naked words on a computer screen, so I'll just assume he means only the best. Having said all that, however, I would make one final and (I believe) indispensible point: Regardless of the how many "power tools" a sadhak possesses, regardless of her/his level of initiation, regardless of their length and heft of spiritual lingam or depth and breadth of spiritual yoni, none of it is worth a thing without LOVE. Laugh if you like. Bhakti, I submit, is the essential ingredient of Tantra, the sine qua non of siddhi. It is the plutonium, baby, without which all of the technology and ingenuity and mathematics and physics in the world will not make da bomb go boom. In that regard, at least, I stand with Mary Ann 110% ... Here's to being careful with babies! DB > > > > , "mahahradanatha" > <mahahradanatha> wrote: > > Half Knowledge is more dangerous than no knowledge at all. > > > > It is better to abstain from tantric type of pujas if you do not > known > > the proper way to do it. > > > > Stick to devotional type of rituals which do not cause trouble and > use > > tantric type of puja only with the guidance of a competent teacher. > > > > Not considering the inward preparation of the Sadhaka which may > take > > years - the tantric type of Ritual has to contain some standard > > elements to avoid Problems. > > None of these elements are mentionend in the advice given by > panditji, > > nonetheless "high voltage" tantric bijas and visualizations are > used. > > This combination is dangerous. > > > > A tantric type of puja is tapping "high voltage" therefore > preparation > > must include cleansing of the place and the worshipper and the > > materials of worship isolation / filtering of earth energies by > special > > yantras and asanas. > > Binding of the directions, Calling upon protectors of the earth, > > construction of the power field and its protectors to allow the > > absorption and projection of forces. Calling upon the guru- lineage, > > Preparation of the body by nyasa,offering to disturbing spirits, > these > > are the main elements that should be present in every tantric type > of > > puja that aims to achieve a result. > > Only if these things are done the deities force can be safely > > channelled. > > > > Now do you go and blame the Gouverment for providing high voltage > if > > you get a shock because of wrong handling of the wire? Neither > should > > Hanuman or Laxmi be blamend for the problems that arise by > practising > > without the guidance of a teacher and having half knowledge only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2005 Report Share Posted September 2, 2005 Hi DB: Thanks for the comments. I'm not sure it's all that visible online, but the angel in Tamayo's painting is flying over power lines with a message in her hands. I have a print of this work hanging in my home, it impressed me so much. , "Devi Bhakta" <devi_bhakta> wrote: > Hi Mary Ann: > > I liked your comment: > > *** I must say that I still prefer a message of love and compassion > over mechanical renderings, mathematics, and physics. Humans need to > be careful with their babies. *** > > As you know, I've used Maharadanatha's simile before -- the one > about certain yantras and pujas being the equivalent of high- voltage > machines. And so, yeah, I agree with him to a certain extent. But I > have to say, the sorts of warnings he is tossing your way are a bit > much for the occasion. Like a teacher who uses intimidation to cow > students into obedience, it is 95% hot air and melodramatics, and > only about 5% sincerely well-meaning advice. > > Though there are exceptions to every rule, in general you need to be > a pretty damned advanced sadhak to get anywhere near accessing the > level of power he's talking about. Sure, a baby could conceivably > crawl past multiple security posts and enter the core control center > of a nuclear power plant and start switching switches and pushing > buttons -- but the chances that any of these actions would ever > result in a meltdown or even a irregularity of power flow are > infinitesimal. Not only are the baby's actions random (and > randomness does not count for much in Tantra), the baby also lacks > the security codes (in Tantra, the equivalent would be the oral > initiatory overlay) that authorized personnel would need to take the > really important actions. > > So am I calling you a baby? Not at all; I have no inkling of how > advanced your sadhana might be. That is between you and Devi, eh? Am > I calling myself an important "authorized personnel"? No way, I > would never presume as much. Am I saying that Maharadanatha is *not* > authorized personnel? Again, the answer is no. He is who and what he > is, and I wish him well. His advice does appear somewhat overwrought > and self-important, but it's hard to read the emotional content of > naked words on a computer screen, so I'll just assume he means only > the best. > > Having said all that, however, I would make one final and (I believe) > indispensible point: Regardless of the how many "power tools" a > sadhak possesses, regardless of her/his level of initiation, > regardless of their length and heft of spiritual lingam or depth and > breadth of spiritual yoni, none of it is worth a thing without LOVE. > > Laugh if you like. Bhakti, I submit, is the essential ingredient of > Tantra, the sine qua non of siddhi. It is the plutonium, baby, > without which all of the technology and ingenuity and mathematics > and physics in the world will not make da bomb go boom. > > In that regard, at least, I stand with Mary Ann 110% ... > > Here's to being careful with babies! > > DB > > > > > > > > > > , "mahahradanatha" > > <mahahradanatha> wrote: > > > Half Knowledge is more dangerous than no knowledge at all. > > > > > > It is better to abstain from tantric type of pujas if you do not > > known > > > the proper way to do it. > > > > > > Stick to devotional type of rituals which do not cause trouble > and > > use > > > tantric type of puja only with the guidance of a competent > teacher. > > > > > > Not considering the inward preparation of the Sadhaka which may > > take > > > years - the tantric type of Ritual has to contain some standard > > > elements to avoid Problems. > > > None of these elements are mentionend in the advice given by > > panditji, > > > nonetheless "high voltage" tantric bijas and visualizations are > > used. > > > This combination is dangerous. > > > > > > A tantric type of puja is tapping "high voltage" therefore > > preparation > > > must include cleansing of the place and the worshipper and the > > > materials of worship isolation / filtering of earth energies by > > special > > > yantras and asanas. > > > Binding of the directions, Calling upon protectors of the earth, > > > construction of the power field and its protectors to allow the > > > absorption and projection of forces. Calling upon the guru- > lineage, > > > Preparation of the body by nyasa,offering to disturbing spirits, > > these > > > are the main elements that should be present in every tantric > type > > of > > > puja that aims to achieve a result. > > > Only if these things are done the deities force can be safely > > > channelled. > > > > > > Now do you go and blame the Gouverment for providing high > voltage > > if > > > you get a shock because of wrong handling of the wire? Neither > > should > > > Hanuman or Laxmi be blamend for the problems that arise by > > practising > > > without the guidance of a teacher and having half knowledge only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2005 Report Share Posted September 2, 2005 Actually, I just realized the link to the girl's comments doesn't work. Here's what she said: Messenger in the Wind by Rufino Tamayo by Marlyn Rodriguez Response to Messenger in the Wind painting: Is she a god or an angel? Why does the woman look so worried? I think she is a beautiful white angel. She is very tired and worried because one week ago a huge storm came. A baby was lying on the ground so the storm washed the baby away. The script that she has in her hand is a WARNING to people on the earth, a warning to be careful with their babies. The angel went flying all over the world, from Mexico to Spain, to look for the baby. She flew over the dark blue Atlantic Ocean. Her gown dragged the salty waves. She was very tired so she decided to go home. She would look for the baby first thing in the morning. A huge storm was coming-- she could feel it by listening to the wind. On the way home she didn't just hear the storm, she also heard a baby crying. She quickly grabbed the baby from the branches of an apple tree and hugged it tight. The baby felt cold from being in the night air, but she smiled and did not cry or cough. The angel was so happy. , "Mary Ann" <buttercookie61> wrote: > I saw this painting, Messenger in the Wind, by Mexian artist Rufino > Tamayo, months ago and felt like it really spoke to me. The comments > made below about high voltage, who gets blamed for crossed wires, > etc. brought it to mind. > > I did some internet research trying to find information on the > artist, and the most interesting thing I found at that point was a > schoolgirl's comments on what she felt the message of the painting, > or of the angel in it, is. This was the best link I could find for > the painting; it's beautiful but the renderings on line don't do it > justice. > > http://www.wmich.edu/dialogues/texts/selectedpoemsofrosariocastellanos > .htm > > Here are the girl's comments: > > http://www.humanities.uci.edu/hot/journal/student/display_one.php? > recid=852 > > I must say that I still prefer a message of love and compassion over > mechanical renderings, mathematics, and physics. Humans need to be > careful with their babies. > > > > , "mahahradanatha" > <mahahradanatha> wrote: > > Half Knowledge is more dangerous than no knowledge at all. > > > > It is better to abstain from tantric type of pujas if you do not > known > > the proper way to do it. > > > > Stick to devotional type of rituals which do not cause trouble and > use > > tantric type of puja only with the guidance of a competent teacher. > > > > Not considering the inward preparation of the Sadhaka which may > take > > years - the tantric type of Ritual has to contain some standard > > elements to avoid Problems. > > None of these elements are mentionend in the advice given by > panditji, > > nonetheless "high voltage" tantric bijas and visualizations are > used. > > This combination is dangerous. > > > > A tantric type of puja is tapping "high voltage" therefore > preparation > > must include cleansing of the place and the worshipper and the > > materials of worship isolation / filtering of earth energies by > special > > yantras and asanas. > > Binding of the directions, Calling upon protectors of the earth, > > construction of the power field and its protectors to allow the > > absorption and projection of forces. Calling upon the guru- lineage, > > Preparation of the body by nyasa,offering to disturbing spirits, > these > > are the main elements that should be present in every tantric type > of > > puja that aims to achieve a result. > > Only if these things are done the deities force can be safely > > channelled. > > > > Now do you go and blame the Gouverment for providing high voltage > if > > you get a shock because of wrong handling of the wire? Neither > should > > Hanuman or Laxmi be blamend for the problems that arise by > practising > > without the guidance of a teacher and having half knowledge only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2005 Report Share Posted September 3, 2005 --- he is tossing your way are a bit > much for the occasion. I was not adressing Mary ann i was adressing Pandit dev maharaj. Please mind that he has even been given out medical advice without seeing the patient, (which included the use of toxic substances that should just be taken in under the strict supervison of a physician) His ritual advice is similiarly unsound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2005 Report Share Posted September 3, 2005 Dear Mary Ann, Yes it is sad that people do get caught up in their own nets so to say. But if they must go that way they should better believe that their own devices work, maybe most of the time their device do not work like DB said, but then why use them? to be more specific: if someone uses a Bija visualization like Gam to invoke the deity he is attracting the causal body - sound body of the deity-the sound body must be established in a prana body that has to be drawn out of your own body via the breath-that braeth-prana form has to be placed in the yantra or murti- it is not good advice to invite the causal body alone. If you only invite the Causal Body form and imagine that it sends a ray of light in your ajna chakra it will cause overheating of the brain center-this will cause headaches and ultimate mental illness-the energy has to be grounded also in the chakra system. There are many problems like that in the ritual advice from maharaj.If Devi Bhakta is doubting my agenda he should erase my membership then i wouzldn´t have to read all this expert advice and could leave my wings in the closet regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2005 Report Share Posted September 3, 2005 My dear!! Is that not what i said? Please do not take these things personally. Take it as a discussion. Even a heated one. But no personal affront is there. mahahradanatha <mahahradanatha wrote: Dear Mary Ann, Yes it is sad that people do get caught up in their own nets so to say. But if they must go that way they should better believe that their own devices work, maybe most of the time their device do not work like DB said, but then why use them? to be more specific: if someone uses a Bija visualization like Gam to invoke the deity he is attracting the causal body - sound body of the deity-the sound body must be established in a prana body that has to be drawn out of your own body via the breath-that braeth-prana form has to be placed in the yantra or murti- it is not good advice to invite the causal body alone. If you only invite the Causal Body form and imagine that it sends a ray of light in your ajna chakra it will cause overheating of the brain center-this will cause headaches and ultimate mental illness-the energy has to be grounded also in the chakra system. There are many problems like that in the ritual advice from maharaj.If Devi Bhakta is doubting my agenda he should erase my membership then i wouzldn´t have to read all this expert advice and could leave my wings in the closet regards Beliefs of hinduism Traditions Divine Hinduism Visit your group "" on the web. Start your day with - make it your home page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2005 Report Share Posted September 3, 2005 and to add: You do not need to be an "advanced sadhaka" whatever this "monster" is.. to overload your brain center-on the contraray many cases of migraine, bodily armours in the neck region, insomnia etc are caused by disregarding the emotions and bodily needs, which are located in the 2 lower regions of the body and chakra-energy system(the three cities of tripura sundari being brain heart and erotic-bodily centers) while concentrating on the brain energy only. This disregard for the emotion and body is the cause of much unhappiness. In the puja the energies can be drawn in via the brain center but must be led downwards to the heart and body to achieve the unity of mind heart and body which has great healing power. These three worlds are shown in the kindergarden of the puja to the baby self in the the picture of the causal sound body the prana body and the yantra (or picture or statue body of the deity). But this is only the finger pointing to the moon. The real work 0f transformation should be done in the mind heart body system of your own self, brain energy unites with love and unites with the erotic-body earth energy to accomplish energetic harmony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2005 Report Share Posted September 4, 2005 Namaskaar Of all the people that I have recommended this to I can't recall one that has had a problem, you however seem to see problems galore. You see if you actually did what I said, a simple panchopchara puja which a child could do, tantric way or not from a devotional perspective (which is what I recommended) you would find that the energy manifesting from Lord Ganesh, Hanuman etc. is only a simple spark which enables you to connect to the deity. The full-blown energy will not manifest. Everything that I have recommended in my posts have been tried by me personally with good results, hence I make no apologies to you or anyone else. --- mahahradanatha <mahahradanatha wrote: and to add: You do not need to be an "advanced sadhaka" ……………………(message truncated for ease) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2005 Report Share Posted September 6, 2005 Hi Mahahradanatha: Regarding my reply to Mary Ann, you wrote: "If Devi Bhakta is doubting my agenda he should erase my membership then i wouldn't have to read all this expert advice and could leave my wings in the closet :)" (1) As you pointed out, your reply was to Pandit Dev Maharaj, so my response was based on a false premise to start with. My mistake, not yours. I apologize. ;-) (2) As Kochu pointed out, it is just a conversation. If I "erased" every member with whom I occasionally disagree, it would get pretty lonely around here. *lol* No offense, okay? I very much appreciate your contributions here, as do many others I am sure. DB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2005 Report Share Posted September 7, 2005 "Devi Bhakta" <devi_bhakta> wrote: > Hi Mahahradanatha: > > Regarding my reply to Mary Ann, you wrote: > > "If Devi Bhakta is doubting my agenda he should erase my membership > then i wouldn't have to read all this expert advice and could leave > my wings in the closet :)" > > (1) As you pointed out, your reply was to Pandit Dev Maharaj, so my > response was based on a false premise to start with. My mistake, not > yours. I apologize. ;-) > > (2) As Kochu pointed out, it is just a conversation. If I "erased" > every member with whom I occasionally disagree, it would get pretty > lonely around here. *lol* > > No offense, okay? I very much appreciate your contributions here, as > do many others I am sure. There you see Mahahradanatha, didnt I tell you DB is such a nice guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2005 Report Share Posted September 7, 2005 No Problem, misunderstandings can happen. Especially in a list where many different people from different cultural and social and religious backgrounds meet. , "Devi Bhakta" <devi_bhakta> wrote: > Hi Mahahradanatha: > > Regarding my reply to Mary Ann, you wrote: > > "If Devi Bhakta is doubting my agenda he should erase my membership > then i wouldn't have to read all this expert advice and could leave > my wings in the closet :)" > > (1) As you pointed out, your reply was to Pandit Dev Maharaj, so my > response was based on a false premise to start with. My mistake, not > yours. I apologize. ;-) > > (2) As Kochu pointed out, it is just a conversation. If I "erased" > every member with whom I occasionally disagree, it would get pretty > lonely around here. *lol* > > No offense, okay? I very much appreciate your contributions here, as > do many others I am sure. > > DB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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