Guest guest Posted September 5, 2005 Report Share Posted September 5, 2005 Serpent Symbolism in the Mythologies of Andhra Folk Goddesses Serpent worship and its religious and symbolic significance in India has been written about extensively by many scholars in the past since the late 19th century. The source material for these studies was mostly sculptures and sometimes paintings, the myths of Sanskrit texts (chiefly those describing the exploits of Vishnu, Krishna and Siva) and occasional field reports of devotees who worship serpents. Remarkably, however, these previous studies do not focus on the intimate relationship that exists between village goddesses and serpent lore. In my own field work in villages and at goddess temples in Andhra Pradesh, I noted that understanding this connection is crucial to ascertaining the socio-religious significance of the goddess in her cultic context and that the connection between serpents and village goddesses is perhaps even more extensive than in relation to male deities. In this paper I will attempt to answer a series of questions including: Why do village people visualize their goddesses in serpent form? That is, what are the perceived affinities between the powers of the serpent and the powers of the goddess which render the association so complete? My answers will address issues of gender, sexuality, fertility and cosmogony. I will determine how specific my understanding is to Andhra or whether it is also prevalent throughout other cultural regions of India with the same intensity. I will also trace out the history of viewing the divine as a serpent with an eye toward determining early reasons behind it. Sree Padma, Bowdoin College Association of South Asian Studies Abstracts from 1998 AAS Annual Meeting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2005 Report Share Posted September 5, 2005 "Kundala means coiled. The power is the Goddess [Devi] Kundalini or that which is coiled, for Her form is that of a coiled and sleeping serpent in the lowest bodily center, at the base of the spinal column, until by means described She is aroused in that Yoga which is names after Her. Kundalini is the Divine Cosmic Energy in bodies. >From The Serpent Power, by Sir John Woodroffe, 1919 See also : http://www.shaktisadhana.org/Photo%20Gallery/cakra/muladhara.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2005 Report Share Posted September 5, 2005 Namaskaar I tend to agree with this, actually when you view this in meditation she appears quite annoyed on being roused from sleep and is black in colour in the base chakra but when she begins to move upward she appears as a pleasing white cobra until she transforms into a stunningly beautiful woman ! Dhanyavaad Pandit Devindra Maharaj --- NMadasamy <nmadasamy wrote: > "Kundala means coiled. The power is the Goddess > [Devi] Kundalini or > that which is coiled, for Her form is that of a > coiled and sleeping > serpent in the lowest bodily center, at the base of > the spinal column, > until by means described She is aroused in that Yoga > which is names > after Her. Kundalini is the Divine Cosmic Energy in > bodies. > > From The Serpent Power, by Sir John Woodroffe, 1919 > > See also > : > http://www.shaktisadhana.org/Photo%20Gallery/cakra/muladhara.html > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2005 Report Share Posted September 5, 2005 Namaste Snake worship is more prevelent in Parashurama Kshetra,or southren part of westren Ghat i.e Kerala and Tulunad . Large number of snakes in the area and the necesity to coexist with them might have led to snake worship.Snake worship here has some peculiarities which are not found in other parts of India, Nagamandala puja, Naga bana (vana),etc.It is said that the practice of keeping Naga stones originated in this area. In other parts of India Naga is related to gods through legends . Like Vasuki and vishnu, Sarpa and shiva,Ganapati and snake(he used it as belt), Subramanya and Vasuki,Krisha and Kalinga.Even in mahabaratha Nahusha takes birth as a huge snake.In childhood Bhima is thrown in to a lake and goes to Nagaloka. There are some amazing stories.Snakes are notorious for their vegence(in stories and films!!) I wonder are there any such stories in Shakta mythology or does they have any significance in any Tantric rituals.(other than Kundalini which is quite symbolic). KHK.Prasad. , "NMadasamy" <nmadasamy@s...> wrote: > Serpent Symbolism in the Mythologies of Andhra Folk Goddesses > > > Serpent worship and its religious and symbolic significance in India > has been written about extensively by many scholars in the past > since the late 19th century. The p.source material for these studies > was mostly sculptures and sometimes paintings, the myths of Sanskrit > texts (chiefly those describing the exploits of Vishnu, Krishna and > Siva) and occasional field reports of devotees who worship serpents. > Remarkably, however, these previous studies do not focus on the > intimate relationship that exists between village goddesses and > serpent lore. In my own field work in villages and at goddess > temples in Andhra Pradesh, I noted that understanding this > connection is crucial to ascertaining the socio-religious > significance of the goddess in her cultic context and that the > connection between serpents and village goddesses is perhaps even > more extensive than in relation to male deities. > > In this paper I will attempt to answer a series of questions > including: Why do village people visualize their goddesses in > serpent form? That is, what are the perceived affinities between the > powers of the serpent and the powers of the goddess which render the > association so complete? My answers will address issues of gender, > sexuality, fertility and cosmogony. I will determine how specific my > understanding is to Andhra or whether it is also prevalent > throughout other cultural regions of India with the same intensity. > I will also trace out the history of viewing the divine as a serpent > with an eye toward determining early reasons behind it. > > Sree Padma, Bowdoin College > Association of South Asian Studies > Abstracts from 1998 AAS Annual Meeting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2005 Report Share Posted September 5, 2005 Back in the 80´s i was researching the origins of the natha sampradaya in nepala. Its founders visit to nepal ist still commemorated in a ratha yatra dedicated to red matsyendranatha. excerpt from my paper on the Nathas in Nepala: "The smaller yearly festival of Ratha jatra,-where the god is carried with a chariot through the city streets, is dedicated to Red Matsyendra. This festival connects with a legend of Gorakshanath keeping the Nagas under control by sitting on them so that no rain fell for a long time in the valley. The inhabitants then asked Matsyendra to come to Nepal. Goraksha rose up from his meditation to greet his Guru, so that the Nagas fled and rain fell again. So Red Matsyendra is propitiated at the jatra to bring rain." Full text http://www.shivashakti.com/werner.htm There are several others Legends which do not mention Gorakshanatha but only talk about a 12 year draught that was ended by the powers of Mahayogi Matsyendranatha. In one Legend Matsyendranath left Assam in the form of a black bee held in a golden ceremonial Kalasha To this day the Newaris still avoid killing these insects and priests worship the golden vessel as the God of Rain and Harvest. Actually the bee must bee caught to cause the rainfall (The bee being the mind with the six legs equalling the 6 sense nadis which being captured held still in the kalasha and connected to the guru chakra eats the Honey=amritkala=Rainfall) Bandhudatta who propiated Matsyendranatha later established the murti of red matsyendranatha and instead of dying vanished into it. (Matsyendrapadyasatakam written by Nilakantha dated 1677) The Nepali translation mentions Gorakhnatha binding the Nagas the sanskrit version does not. The idol is housed in summer in Bungamati wearing a jeweled vest which is asscociated with the nagas and the rainfall it is held aloft by the pujari during yatra, another link to the shakta tradition is that the Patan Kumari has to witness this celebration while the King is not allowed to watch. This strengthens the bond between the Matsyendranatha cult and the very important and secret shakta Cult of taleju devi (ie. Kumari) this cult is very powerful and actually invests the King ritually with the full spiritual force to reign over the Valley. (which Valley is considered to form an astapadma) Again the association of the festival with general fertiltiy can be seen in the Highlights of the Ratha: As the chariot crosses the Nakhu river, snakes of all sizes and colors are to flock around the chariot wheels. In Lagankhel, a priest throws a coconut from the chariot and the man who catches it is assured of having a son. >From Lagankhel to Thati - all one hundred meters - some 300 or 400 single women pull the chariot for about half an hour. The Naga worship is apparently very old and connected with fertility and rainfall. Matsyendranaha being the founder of not only the Natha Sampradaya but also of the Yogini Kaula and is respected by all Kaulas and original Shaktas as the adi or original first Guru of the current Yuga because he rescued the Kaula knowledge that was lost during the deluge out of the ocean he being in the form of a fish. There is also interesting oral lore (which shows the connection of Srividya to natha sampradaya) of the superhuman birth of several nathas by the union of shiva and Lalita MAhatripurasundari: Vishnu, in the form of Mohini as an irresistible dancing girl, appeared before Shiva so that he ejaculated, he held every drop of semen in his hand and fed it to a fish. This Fish was offered to the Queen of Assam, She impregnated with the Sperm gave birth to Natha Gurus (She also was considered to be the Wife of Matsyendranatha) this serves to show the supernatural birth of the sons of Matsyendrantha who founded the different schools of Kaula (according to the Kaula Jnanan Nirnaya) There is another Legend containing very similiar kaula elements: In this version Vishnu in the form of Mohini washes Shivas semen of his hand after he ejaculated into it,and a fish eats it, this fish gives birth to Matsyendranatha, Vishnu still had some semen stuck to his hand so he wipes it off in cow dung, out of this Cow dung Gorakhshanath is born. Of course there is the Naga Panchami Festival in Nepala but this has no such apparent connection to Shakta or Kaula Philosophy as far as i know. Hope this helps. , "NMadasamy" <nmadasamy@s...> wrote: > Serpent Symbolism in the Mythologies of Andhra Folk Goddesses > > > Serpent worship and its religious and symbolic significance in India > has been written about extensively by many scholars in the past > since the late 19th century. The source material for these studies > was mostly sculptures and sometimes paintings, the myths of Sanskrit > texts (chiefly those describing the exploits of Vishnu, Krishna and > Siva) and occasional field reports of devotees who worship serpents. > Remarkably, however, these previous studies do not focus on the > intimate relationship that exists between village goddesses and > serpent lore. In my own field work in villages and at goddess > temples in Andhra Pradesh, I noted that understanding this > connection is crucial to ascertaining the socio-religious > significance of the goddess in her cultic context and that the > connection between serpents and village goddesses is perhaps even > more extensive than in relation to male deities. > > In this paper I will attempt to answer a series of questions > including: Why do village people visualize their goddesses in > serpent form? That is, what are the perceived affinities between the > powers of the serpent and the powers of the goddess which render the > association so complete? My answers will address issues of gender, > sexuality, fertility and cosmogony. I will determine how specific my > understanding is to Andhra or whether it is also prevalent > throughout other cultural regions of India with the same intensity. > I will also trace out the history of viewing the divine as a serpent > with an eye toward determining early reasons behind it. > > Sree Padma, Bowdoin College > Association of South Asian Studies > Abstracts from 1998 AAS Annual Meeting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2005 Report Share Posted September 6, 2005 Namaskaar mahahradanathaji I too am interested in Taleju, I was fortunate to see a documentary on Navartri Puja in Nepala and wanted to get more information on this. I am in the process of rewriting a paper on Navaratri and would greatly appreciate information on this form of Devi, also if you have any on Jvalamukhi, Tvarita, Indrakshi, svapnesvari and Ucchista Chandali - These are forms of the Goddess where very little information is available to me. Incidentally I have a copy of the Kaula Gyana Nirnaya and was in the process of getting the Vamakesvari matam and Kumari tantras however never been able to lay hands on it. Any ideas where I may be able to look. Dhanyavaad Pandit Devindra Maharaj --- mahahradanatha <mahahradanatha wrote: > Back in the 80´s i was researching the origins of > the natha > sampradaya in nepala. Its founders visit to nepal > ist still > commemorated in a ratha yatra dedicated to red > matsyendranatha. > excerpt from my paper on the Nathas in Nepala: > "The smaller yearly festival of Ratha jatra,-where > the god is carried > with a chariot through the city streets, is > dedicated to Red > Matsyendra. This festival connects with a legend of > Gorakshanath > keeping the Nagas under control by sitting on them > so that no rain > fell for a long time in the valley. The inhabitants > then asked > Matsyendra to come to Nepal. Goraksha rose up from > his meditation to > greet his Guru, so that the Nagas fled and rain fell > again. So Red > Matsyendra is propitiated at the jatra to bring > rain." Full text > http://www.shivashakti.com/werner.htm > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2005 Report Share Posted September 6, 2005 A beautiful website on taleju devi http://kumari.puellula.com About the tantras you mention i believe all of them have been in Print but are out of print now i think, kumari tantra which i have never heard of before i don´t know if it ever was edited and printed or if it exists at all. Jwalamukhi is one of the nitya deities and one of the 51 pitha goddesses her shrine is in manali area and consist of a natural fire that exists by itself and cannot be extinguished. Muslim invaders tried to quench the flames with big iron lids but they exploded in pieces and the flames ignited again. Twarita is a pivotal nitya also and a huntress with connection to sabari, like Len said svapnesvari is a form of Varahi, ucchista chandali is eating all ritual leftovers also mantra and mudra and prana leftovers. She helps to keep unwanted energies and stupid people away from her devotees by creating the illusion that her devotee is ucchista=unclean also, while in fact this is only divine illusion to protect the knowledge from the dualists. , Dev Maharaj <dev_maharaj> wrote: > Namaskaar mahahradanathaji > > I too am interested in Taleju, I was fortunate to see > a documentary on Navartri Puja in Nepala and wanted to > get more information on this. I am in the process of > rewriting a paper on Navaratri and would greatly > appreciate information on this form of Devi, also if > you have any on Jvalamukhi, Tvarita, Indrakshi, > svapnesvari and Ucchista Chandali - These are forms of > the Goddess where very little information is available > to me. Incidentally I have a copy of the Kaula Gyana > Nirnaya and was in the process of getting the > Vamakesvari matam and Kumari tantras however never > been able to lay hands on it. Any ideas where I may be > able to look. > > Dhanyavaad > Pandit Devindra Maharaj > > --- mahahradanatha <mahahradanatha> wrote: > > > Back in the 80´s i was researching the origins of > > the natha > > sampradaya in nepala. Its founders visit to nepal > > ist still > > commemorated in a ratha yatra dedicated to red > > matsyendranatha. > > excerpt from my paper on the Nathas in Nepala: > > "The smaller yearly festival of Ratha jatra,-where > > the god is carried > > with a chariot through the city streets, is > > dedicated to Red > > Matsyendra. This festival connects with a legend of > > Gorakshanath > > keeping the Nagas under control by sitting on them > > so that no rain > > fell for a long time in the valley. The inhabitants > > then asked > > Matsyendra to come to Nepal. Goraksha rose up from > > his meditation to > > greet his Guru, so that the Nagas fled and rain fell > > again. So Red > > Matsyendra is propitiated at the jatra to bring > > rain." Full text > > http://www.shivashakti.com/werner.htm > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2005 Report Share Posted September 6, 2005 , "mahahradanatha" <mahahradanatha> wrote: A beautiful website on taleju devi http://kumari.puellula.com About the tantras you mention i believe all of them have been in Print but are out of print now i think, kumari tantra which i have never heard of before i don´t know if it ever was edited and printed or if it exists at all. Jwalamukhi is one of the nitya deities and one of the 51 pitha goddesses her shrine is in manali area and consist of a natural fire that exists by itself and cannot be extinguished. Muslim invaders tried to quench the flames with big iron lids but they exploded in pieces and the flames ignited again. Twarita is a pivotal nitya also and a huntress with connection to sabari, like Len said svapnesvari is a form of Varahi, ucchista chandali is eating all ritual leftovers also mantra and mudra and prana leftovers. She helps to keep unwanted energies and stupid people away from her devotees by creating the illusion that her devotee is ucchista=unclean also, while in fact this is only divine illusion to protect the knowledge from the dualists. Hahhaa this is good. Thank you mahahradanatha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2005 Report Share Posted September 7, 2005 Mahandranatha wrote : She helps to keep unwanted energies and stupid people away from her devotees by creating the illusion that her devotee is ucchista=unclean also, while in fact this is only divine illusion to protect the knowledge from the dualists. Yes agreed. Sometimes DEVI will throw in the GEM and purposely make it look like a fake. Only those who knows to differentiate between the real and the fake will be able to recognise it. This you cant learn from the book. It must come from first hand experience and from the master themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2005 Report Share Posted September 7, 2005 Well, one needs to be careful about this, too. There are a lot of people out there who think they know it all, and that when others don't recognize it, it's because everyone else is a dualist, or unenlightened, or whatever. About keeping unwanted energies away, the great sage Mick Jagger said it best: "You can't always get what you want/but if you try sometimes/you just might find/you get what you need." , "NMadasamy" <nmadasamy@s...> wrote: > Mahandranatha wrote : She helps to keep unwanted energies and stupid > people away from her devotees by creating the illusion that her > devotee is ucchista=unclean also, while in fact this is only divine > illusion to protect the knowledge from the dualists. > > > Yes agreed. Sometimes DEVI will throw in the GEM and purposely make it > look like a fake. Only those who knows to differentiate between the > real and the fake will be able to recognise it. This you cant learn > from the book. It must come from first hand experience and from the > master themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2005 Report Share Posted September 7, 2005 It is just a function of this devi. Often people mistake the cover for the content, there can be worthwhile content in a simple cover. The devi takes that which we throw away and puts it to an use. This is an internal function representing transformation of that which is unhealthy to something which is useful and good. What you are talking about is self righteousness which is the normal daily state of the average human mind, not a function of ucchista candali. The ugly appearance of the Gurus connected to the kaula sampradaya is legendary. In fact also Shiva himself often appears in a very ugly outfit, so ugly that he is not invited to the legendary sacrifice of daksha which caused problems that eventually led to the death of sati and the appeareance of the devis body parts in the holy places-like the tongue in jawalamukhi pith etc. , "Mary Ann" <buttercookie61> wrote: > Well, one needs to be careful about this, too. There are a lot of > people out there who think they know it all, and that when others don't > recognize it, it's because everyone else is a dualist, or > unenlightened, or whatever. About keeping unwanted energies away, the > great sage Mick Jagger said it best: "You can't always get what you > want/but if you try sometimes/you just might find/you get what you > need." > > , "NMadasamy" <nmadasamy@s...> > wrote: > > Mahandranatha wrote : She helps to keep unwanted energies and stupid > > people away from her devotees by creating the illusion that her > > devotee is ucchista=unclean also, while in fact this is only divine > > illusion to protect the knowledge from the dualists. > > > > > > Yes agreed. Sometimes DEVI will throw in the GEM and purposely make > it > > look like a fake. Only those who knows to differentiate between the > > real and the fake will be able to recognise it. This you cant learn > > from the book. It must come from first hand experience and from the > > master themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2005 Report Share Posted September 7, 2005 Today in the parking garage for my office, the daily quote posted at the entry says: "Beware as long as you live of judging people by appearances." -- Jean de la Fontaine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_de_La_Fontaine But are you saying that Shiva made a mistake in choosing to appear that way? , "mahahradanatha" <mahahradanatha> wrote: > It is just a function of this devi. Often people mistake the cover > for the content, there can be worthwhile content in a simple cover. > The devi takes that which we throw away and puts it to an use. > This is an internal function representing transformation of that > which is unhealthy to something which is useful and good. > > What you are talking about is self righteousness which is the normal > daily state of the average human mind, not a function of ucchista > candali. > > The ugly appearance of the Gurus connected to the kaula sampradaya is > legendary. > In fact also Shiva himself often appears in a very ugly outfit, so > ugly that he is not invited to the legendary sacrifice of daksha > which caused problems that eventually led to the death of sati and > the appeareance of the devis body parts in the holy places-like the > tongue in jawalamukhi pith etc. > > > , "Mary Ann" > <buttercookie61> wrote: > > Well, one needs to be careful about this, too. There are a lot of > > people out there who think they know it all, and that when others > don't > > recognize it, it's because everyone else is a dualist, or > > unenlightened, or whatever. About keeping unwanted energies away, > the > > great sage Mick Jagger said it best: "You can't always get what > you > > want/but if you try sometimes/you just might find/you get what you > > need." > > > > , "NMadasamy" <nmadasamy@s...> > > wrote: > > > Mahandranatha wrote : She helps to keep unwanted energies and > stupid > > > people away from her devotees by creating the illusion that her > > > devotee is ucchista=unclean also, while in fact this is only > divine > > > illusion to protect the knowledge from the dualists. > > > > > > > > > Yes agreed. Sometimes DEVI will throw in the GEM and purposely > make > > it > > > look like a fake. Only those who knows to differentiate between > the > > > real and the fake will be able to recognise it. This you cant > learn > > > from the book. It must come from first hand experience and from > the > > > master themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2005 Report Share Posted September 7, 2005 Namaskaar Mary Ann I just wanted to point you a couple of things, when a person perceives a Devi/devatas a lot of the "ugliness" that is seen is actually emanating from the perceivers mind - due to samskaars vasaanas and mental clutter. Some of the wrathful forms appear quite grotesque but that is as a result of the amount of power and energy that they possess. This is how it appears to a developing mind that is unaware of this. Also to judge people is to form an opinion by what they radiate to others. Many times however people although well intentioned may not know how to express themselves in a manner that is acceptable to all and sundry and because they lack this they appear to be hostile, rude (and a host of other adjectives) etc. Some of the most erudite opinions that I have heard have not come from scholars but from very simple people who really wanted to find out things. You see the problem with teaching people who already KNOW is that they already "know" ! Devindra Maharaj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2005 Report Share Posted September 7, 2005 Yes about that transformation of negative emotional "leftovers" Repression causes sicknesses Dumping them on other means loosing important parts of your own vitality and you will eventually get them thrown back at you. another quote from the pop culture:) jesus died for somebodys sins but not mine, they belong to me. patti smith Shiva is an outlaw he takes drugs even murdered brahma the karma of this killing caused him to appear in the guise of Bhairava to roam the earth with a skull stuck to his hand. He is adressed as the Lord of thieves. But all these deeds create possibilities for other beings of achieving freedom from rebirth. Time starts with an imbalance, if the deities want to appear to us and other imbalanced beings they must also create imabalances otherwise we would not see them, but these imbalanced forms of the gods are willful, playful manifestations. They are happening out of their own will. (sanskrit:sveccha) this own will is one of the primal shaktis, human beings also have this (icchha)shakti but usually in avery limited form. She is one of the triad Icchha Jnana Kriya, Will Mind and Deed , "Mary Ann" <buttercookie61> wrote: > Today in the parking garage for my office, the daily quote posted at > the entry says: "Beware as long as you live of judging people by > appearances." -- Jean de la Fontaine > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_de_La_Fontaine > > But are you saying that Shiva made a mistake in choosing to appear > that way? > > > > , "mahahradanatha" > <mahahradanatha> wrote: > > It is just a function of this devi. Often people mistake the cover > > for the content, there can be worthwhile content in a simple cover. > > The devi takes that which we throw away and puts it to an use. > > This is an internal function representing transformation of that > > which is unhealthy to something which is useful and good. > > > > What you are talking about is self righteousness which is the > normal > > daily state of the average human mind, not a function of ucchista > > candali. > > > > The ugly appearance of the Gurus connected to the kaula sampradaya > is > > legendary. > > In fact also Shiva himself often appears in a very ugly outfit, so > > ugly that he is not invited to the legendary sacrifice of daksha > > which caused problems that eventually led to the death of sati and > > the appeareance of the devis body parts in the holy places-like the > > tongue in jawalamukhi pith etc. > > > > > > , "Mary Ann" > > <buttercookie61> wrote: > > > Well, one needs to be careful about this, too. There are a lot of > > > people out there who think they know it all, and that when others > > don't > > > recognize it, it's because everyone else is a dualist, or > > > unenlightened, or whatever. About keeping unwanted energies away, > > the > > > great sage Mick Jagger said it best: "You can't always get what > > you > > > want/but if you try sometimes/you just might find/you get what > you > > > need." > > > > > > , "NMadasamy" > <nmadasamy@s...> > > > wrote: > > > > Mahandranatha wrote : She helps to keep unwanted energies and > > stupid > > > > people away from her devotees by creating the illusion that her > > > > devotee is ucchista=unclean also, while in fact this is only > > divine > > > > illusion to protect the knowledge from the dualists. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes agreed. Sometimes DEVI will throw in the GEM and purposely > > make > > > it > > > > look like a fake. Only those who knows to differentiate between > > the > > > > real and the fake will be able to recognise it. This you cant > > learn > > > > from the book. It must come from first hand experience and from > > the > > > > master themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2005 Report Share Posted September 8, 2005 Hi Mahahradanatha - Yes, I love those Patti Smith lines (from "Gloria" on the Horses album for anyone out there who might want to give that a listen if unafamiliar). I think by Smith's statement, Jesus died, really, for his own sins, or choices. Re the notion that Shiva's bad behaviors "create possibilities for other beings > of achieving freedom from rebirth" - this leaves room for people to allow their mental imbalances to go unchecked. I am speaking specifically of a man I know who identifies with Shiva and is purposefully "acting out" so he can help others transform. Meanwhile, he gets kicked out of groups, alienates folks, etc. I consider him to have a "Jesus complex" in that he is sacrificing himself for what he thinks is our benefit (I'm in a group he's been part of). To take the idea to another extreme, you might say a woman could thank her rapist b/c she had to do so much healing work after the rape - and of course, this is truly a misapplication of spiritual principles. But I feel spiritual principles have been misapplied this way for millenia. And I get a hint of that in what you said about Shiva's behavior's effect on others. Whatever the behavior's effect on others, I think Shiva needs to just be responsible for his own choices, and same with the rest of us, Devis/devatas or humans. , "mahahradanatha" <mahahradanatha> wrote: > Yes about that transformation of negative emotional "leftovers" > > Repression causes sicknesses > Dumping them on other means loosing important parts of your own > vitality and you will eventually get them thrown back at you. > another quote from the pop culture:) jesus died for somebodys sins > but not mine, they belong to me. patti smith > > Shiva is an outlaw he takes drugs even murdered brahma the karma of > this killing caused him to appear in the guise of Bhairava to roam > the earth with a skull stuck to his hand. He is adressed as the Lord > of thieves. But all these deeds create possibilities for other beings > of achieving freedom from rebirth. Time starts with an imbalance, if > the deities want to appear to us and other imbalanced beings they > must also create imabalances otherwise we would not see them, but > these imbalanced forms of the gods are willful, playful > manifestations. They are happening out of their own will. > (sanskrit:sveccha) this own will is one of the primal shaktis, human > beings also have this (icchha)shakti but usually in avery limited > form. > She is one of the triad Icchha Jnana Kriya, Will Mind and Deed > > > > , "Mary Ann" > <buttercookie61> wrote: > > Today in the parking garage for my office, the daily quote posted > at > > the entry says: "Beware as long as you live of judging people by > > appearances." -- Jean de la Fontaine > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_de_La_Fontaine > > > > But are you saying that Shiva made a mistake in choosing to appear > > that way? > > > > > > > > , "mahahradanatha" > > <mahahradanatha> wrote: > > > It is just a function of this devi. Often people mistake the > cover > > > for the content, there can be worthwhile content in a simple > cover. > > > The devi takes that which we throw away and puts it to an use. > > > This is an internal function representing transformation of that > > > which is unhealthy to something which is useful and good. > > > > > > What you are talking about is self righteousness which is the > > normal > > > daily state of the average human mind, not a function of > ucchista > > > candali. > > > > > > The ugly appearance of the Gurus connected to the kaula > sampradaya > > is > > > legendary. > > > In fact also Shiva himself often appears in a very ugly outfit, > so > > > ugly that he is not invited to the legendary sacrifice of daksha > > > which caused problems that eventually led to the death of sati > and > > > the appeareance of the devis body parts in the holy places-like > the > > > tongue in jawalamukhi pith etc. > > > > > > > > > , "Mary Ann" > > > <buttercookie61> wrote: > > > > Well, one needs to be careful about this, too. There are a lot > of > > > > people out there who think they know it all, and that when > others > > > don't > > > > recognize it, it's because everyone else is a dualist, or > > > > unenlightened, or whatever. About keeping unwanted energies > away, > > > the > > > > great sage Mick Jagger said it best: "You can't always get > what > > > you > > > > want/but if you try sometimes/you just might find/you get what > > you > > > > need." > > > > > > > > , "NMadasamy" > > <nmadasamy@s...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > Mahandranatha wrote : She helps to keep unwanted energies and > > > stupid > > > > > people away from her devotees by creating the illusion that > her > > > > > devotee is ucchista=unclean also, while in fact this is only > > > divine > > > > > illusion to protect the knowledge from the dualists. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes agreed. Sometimes DEVI will throw in the GEM and > purposely > > > make > > > > it > > > > > look like a fake. Only those who knows to differentiate > between > > > the > > > > > real and the fake will be able to recognise it. This you cant > > > learn > > > > > from the book. It must come from first hand experience and > from > > > the > > > > > master themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2005 Report Share Posted September 8, 2005 Maybe what you are saying is that the ugliness is all in our projections, but that is still not a reason for people or Devis/devatas to behave in ugly ways. See my post just above this. Are you saying that the Devis/devatas are just our own psychic projections of God/dess, so that's why we revere them? , Dev Maharaj <dev_maharaj> wrote: > Namaskaar Mary Ann > > I just wanted to point you a couple of things, when a person perceives a Devi/devatas a lot of the "ugliness" that is seen is actually emanating from the perceivers mind - due to samskaars vasaanas and mental clutter. Some of the wrathful forms appear quite > grotesque but that is as a result of the amount of power and energy that they possess. This is how it appears to a developing mind that is unaware of this. > > Also to judge people is to form an opinion by what they radiate to others. Many times however people although well intentioned may not know how to express themselves in a manner that is acceptable to all and sundry and because they lack this they appear to be hostile, rude (and a host of other adjectives) etc. Some of the most erudite opinions that I have heard have not come from scholars but from very simple people who really wanted to find out things. You see the problem with teaching people who already KNOW is that they already "know" ! > > Devindra Maharaj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2005 Report Share Posted September 8, 2005 Hi Mary ann > Hi Mahahradanatha - Yes, I love those Patti Smith lines > (from "Gloria" on the Horses album for anyone out there who might > want to give that a listen if unafamiliar). I think by Smith's > statement, Jesus died, really, for his own sins, or choices. And the other way around she wants to be a complete person responsible for her own action and their results and not dump them on somebody else. > > Re the notion that Shiva's bad behaviors "create possibilities for > other beings > > of achieving freedom from rebirth" - this leaves room for people to > allow their mental imbalances to go unchecked. I am speaking > specifically of a man I know who identifies with Shiva and is > purposefully "acting out" so he can help others transform. Meanwhile, > he gets kicked out of groups, alienates folks, etc. I consider him to > have a "Jesus complex" in that he is sacrificing himself for what he > thinks is our benefit (I'm in a group he's been part of). I do not know of a single idea or thought or word that is not being misused badly by some asshole. > > To take the idea to another extreme, you might say a woman could > thank her rapist b/c she had to do so much healing work after the > rape - and of course, this is truly a misapplication of spiritual > principles. But I feel spiritual principles have been misapplied this way for millenia. Yes like the famous hellinger family theraphy this actually his idea of respect and healing force. And I get a hint of that in what you said about > Shiva's behavior's effect on others. Whatever the behavior's effect > on others, I think Shiva needs to just be responsible for his own > choices, and same with the rest of us, Devis/devatas or humans. > This is exactly the difference the gods willfully enter into existence and choose their roles out of "sveccha" free will knowing and accepting the consequences. When they do this they create the imbalance and balance the energy out again. This is called the tandava dance of Shiva where every movement is balanced by another or it is pictured also as lila a play of the Gods. I dont think you will find a god on this planet that is poltical correct all the time. Imagine that: "The Cult of the always political correct" His holy book "No offence" > > , "mahahradanatha" > <mahahradanatha> wrote: > > Yes about that transformation of negative emotional "leftovers" > > > > Repression causes sicknesses > > Dumping them on other means loosing important parts of your own > > vitality and you will eventually get them thrown back at you. > > another quote from the pop culture:) jesus died for somebodys sins > > but not mine, they belong to me. patti smith > > > > Shiva is an outlaw he takes drugs even murdered brahma the karma > of > > this killing caused him to appear in the guise of Bhairava to roam > > the earth with a skull stuck to his hand. He is adressed as the > Lord > > of thieves. But all these deeds create possibilities for other > beings > > of achieving freedom from rebirth. Time starts with an imbalance, > if > > the deities want to appear to us and other imbalanced beings they > > must also create imabalances otherwise we would not see them, but > > these imbalanced forms of the gods are willful, playful > > manifestations. They are happening out of their own will. > > (sanskrit:sveccha) this own will is one of the primal shaktis, > human > > beings also have this (icchha)shakti but usually in avery limited > > form. > > She is one of the triad Icchha Jnana Kriya, Will Mind and Deed > > > > > > > > , "Mary Ann" > > <buttercookie61> wrote: > > > Today in the parking garage for my office, the daily quote posted > > at > > > the entry says: "Beware as long as you live of judging people by > > > appearances." -- Jean de la Fontaine > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_de_La_Fontaine > > > > > > But are you saying that Shiva made a mistake in choosing to > appear > > > that way? > > > > > > > > > > > > , "mahahradanatha" > > > <mahahradanatha> wrote: > > > > It is just a function of this devi. Often people mistake the > > cover > > > > for the content, there can be worthwhile content in a simple > > cover. > > > > The devi takes that which we throw away and puts it to an use. > > > > This is an internal function representing transformation of > that > > > > which is unhealthy to something which is useful and good. > > > > > > > > What you are talking about is self righteousness which is the > > > normal > > > > daily state of the average human mind, not a function of > > ucchista > > > > candali. > > > > > > > > The ugly appearance of the Gurus connected to the kaula > > sampradaya > > > is > > > > legendary. > > > > In fact also Shiva himself often appears in a very ugly outfit, > > so > > > > ugly that he is not invited to the legendary sacrifice of > daksha > > > > which caused problems that eventually led to the death of sati > > and > > > > the appeareance of the devis body parts in the holy places- like > > the > > > > tongue in jawalamukhi pith etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Mary Ann" > > > > <buttercookie61> wrote: > > > > > Well, one needs to be careful about this, too. There are a > lot > > of > > > > > people out there who think they know it all, and that when > > others > > > > don't > > > > > recognize it, it's because everyone else is a dualist, or > > > > > unenlightened, or whatever. About keeping unwanted energies > > away, > > > > the > > > > > great sage Mick Jagger said it best: "You can't always get > > what > > > > you > > > > > want/but if you try sometimes/you just might find/you get > what > > > you > > > > > need." > > > > > > > > > > , "NMadasamy" > > > <nmadasamy@s...> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Mahandranatha wrote : She helps to keep unwanted energies > and > > > > stupid > > > > > > people away from her devotees by creating the illusion that > > her > > > > > > devotee is ucchista=unclean also, while in fact this is > only > > > > divine > > > > > > illusion to protect the knowledge from the dualists. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes agreed. Sometimes DEVI will throw in the GEM and > > purposely > > > > make > > > > > it > > > > > > look like a fake. Only those who knows to differentiate > > between > > > > the > > > > > > real and the fake will be able to recognise it. This you > cant > > > > learn > > > > > > from the book. It must come from first hand experience and > > from > > > > the > > > > > > master themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2005 Report Share Posted September 8, 2005 Your comments are much appreciated, as usual. Re the below, it isn't about "political correctness" but that those who are being tread on, if that is the case, learn to support themselves in whatever way is most appropriate in any given situation, that is, moving from the highest internal principle(s) ("Be the change you want to see in the world"), and in so doing, the external is also elevated. , "mahahradanatha" <mahahradanatha> wrote: > I dont think you will find a god on this planet that is poltical > correct all the time. Imagine that: "The Cult of the always political > correct" His holy book "No offence" > > > > > > > > , "mahahradanatha" > > <mahahradanatha> wrote: > > > Yes about that transformation of negative emotional "leftovers" > > > > > > Repression causes sicknesses > > > Dumping them on other means loosing important parts of your own > > > vitality and you will eventually get them thrown back at you. > > > another quote from the pop culture:) jesus died for somebodys > sins > > > but not mine, they belong to me. patti smith > > > > > > Shiva is an outlaw he takes drugs even murdered brahma the karma > > of > > > this killing caused him to appear in the guise of Bhairava to > roam > > > the earth with a skull stuck to his hand. He is adressed as the > > Lord > > > of thieves. But all these deeds create possibilities for other > > beings > > > of achieving freedom from rebirth. Time starts with an imbalance, > > if > > > the deities want to appear to us and other imbalanced beings they > > > must also create imabalances otherwise we would not see them, > but > > > these imbalanced forms of the gods are willful, playful > > > manifestations. They are happening out of their own will. > > > (sanskrit:sveccha) this own will is one of the primal shaktis, > > human > > > beings also have this (icchha)shakti but usually in avery limited > > > form. > > > She is one of the triad Icchha Jnana Kriya, Will Mind and Deed > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Mary Ann" > > > <buttercookie61> wrote: > > > > Today in the parking garage for my office, the daily quote > posted > > > at > > > > the entry says: "Beware as long as you live of judging people > by > > > > appearances." -- Jean de la Fontaine > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_de_La_Fontaine > > > > > > > > But are you saying that Shiva made a mistake in choosing to > > appear > > > > that way? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "mahahradanatha" > > > > <mahahradanatha> wrote: > > > > > It is just a function of this devi. Often people mistake the > > > cover > > > > > for the content, there can be worthwhile content in a simple > > > cover. > > > > > The devi takes that which we throw away and puts it to an use. > > > > > This is an internal function representing transformation of > > that > > > > > which is unhealthy to something which is useful and good. > > > > > > > > > > What you are talking about is self righteousness which is the > > > > normal > > > > > daily state of the average human mind, not a function of > > > ucchista > > > > > candali. > > > > > > > > > > The ugly appearance of the Gurus connected to the kaula > > > sampradaya > > > > is > > > > > legendary. > > > > > In fact also Shiva himself often appears in a very ugly > outfit, > > > so > > > > > ugly that he is not invited to the legendary sacrifice of > > daksha > > > > > which caused problems that eventually led to the death of > sati > > > and > > > > > the appeareance of the devis body parts in the holy places- > like > > > the > > > > > tongue in jawalamukhi pith etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Mary Ann" > > > > > <buttercookie61> wrote: > > > > > > Well, one needs to be careful about this, too. There are a > > lot > > > of > > > > > > people out there who think they know it all, and that when > > > others > > > > > don't > > > > > > recognize it, it's because everyone else is a dualist, or > > > > > > unenlightened, or whatever. About keeping unwanted energies > > > away, > > > > > the > > > > > > great sage Mick Jagger said it best: "You can't always get > > > what > > > > > you > > > > > > want/but if you try sometimes/you just might find/you get > > what > > > > you > > > > > > need." > > > > > > > > > > > > , "NMadasamy" > > > > <nmadasamy@s...> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Mahandranatha wrote : She helps to keep unwanted energies > > and > > > > > stupid > > > > > > > people away from her devotees by creating the illusion > that > > > her > > > > > > > devotee is ucchista=unclean also, while in fact this is > > only > > > > > divine > > > > > > > illusion to protect the knowledge from the dualists. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes agreed. Sometimes DEVI will throw in the GEM and > > > purposely > > > > > make > > > > > > it > > > > > > > look like a fake. Only those who knows to differentiate > > > between > > > > > the > > > > > > > real and the fake will be able to recognise it. This you > > cant > > > > > learn > > > > > > > from the book. It must come from first hand experience > and > > > from > > > > > the > > > > > > > master themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2005 Report Share Posted September 8, 2005 IMHO , "Mary Ann" <buttercookie61> wrote: > Your comments are much appreciated, as usual. Re the below, it isn't > about "political correctness" but that those who are being tread on, > if that is the case, learn to support themselves in whatever way is > most appropriate in any given situation, that is, moving from the > highest internal principle(s) ("Be the change you want to see in the > world"), and in so doing, the external is also elevated. > > > > , "mahahradanatha" > <mahahradanatha> wrote: > > I dont think you will find a god on this planet that is poltical > > correct all the time. Imagine that: "The Cult of the always > political > > correct" His holy book "No offence" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "mahahradanatha" > > > <mahahradanatha> wrote: > > > > Yes about that transformation of negative emotional "leftovers" > > > > > > > > Repression causes sicknesses > > > > Dumping them on other means loosing important parts of your own > > > > vitality and you will eventually get them thrown back at you. > > > > another quote from the pop culture:) jesus died for somebodys > > sins > > > > but not mine, they belong to me. patti smith > > > > > > > > Shiva is an outlaw he takes drugs even murdered brahma the > karma > > > of > > > > this killing caused him to appear in the guise of Bhairava to > > roam > > > > the earth with a skull stuck to his hand. He is adressed as the > > > Lord > > > > of thieves. But all these deeds create possibilities for other > > > beings > > > > of achieving freedom from rebirth. Time starts with an > imbalance, > > > if > > > > the deities want to appear to us and other imbalanced beings > they > > > > must also create imabalances otherwise we would not see them, > > but > > > > these imbalanced forms of the gods are willful, playful > > > > manifestations. They are happening out of their own will. > > > > (sanskrit:sveccha) this own will is one of the primal shaktis, > > > human > > > > beings also have this (icchha)shakti but usually in avery > limited > > > > form. > > > > She is one of the triad Icchha Jnana Kriya, Will Mind and Deed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Mary Ann" > > > > <buttercookie61> wrote: > > > > > Today in the parking garage for my office, the daily quote > > posted > > > > at > > > > > the entry says: "Beware as long as you live of judging > people > > by > > > > > appearances." -- Jean de la Fontaine > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_de_La_Fontaine > > > > > > > > > > But are you saying that Shiva made a mistake in choosing to > > > appear > > > > > that way? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "mahahradanatha" > > > > > <mahahradanatha> wrote: > > > > > > It is just a function of this devi. Often people mistake > the > > > > cover > > > > > > for the content, there can be worthwhile content in a > simple > > > > cover. > > > > > > The devi takes that which we throw away and puts it to an > use. > > > > > > This is an internal function representing transformation of > > > that > > > > > > which is unhealthy to something which is useful and good. > > > > > > > > > > > > What you are talking about is self righteousness which is > the > > > > > normal > > > > > > daily state of the average human mind, not a function of > > > > ucchista > > > > > > candali. > > > > > > > > > > > > The ugly appearance of the Gurus connected to the kaula > > > > sampradaya > > > > > is > > > > > > legendary. > > > > > > In fact also Shiva himself often appears in a very ugly > > outfit, > > > > so > > > > > > ugly that he is not invited to the legendary sacrifice of > > > daksha > > > > > > which caused problems that eventually led to the death of > > sati > > > > and > > > > > > the appeareance of the devis body parts in the holy places- > > like > > > > the > > > > > > tongue in jawalamukhi pith etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Mary Ann" > > > > > > <buttercookie61> wrote: > > > > > > > Well, one needs to be careful about this, too. There are > a > > > lot > > > > of > > > > > > > people out there who think they know it all, and that > when > > > > others > > > > > > don't > > > > > > > recognize it, it's because everyone else is a dualist, or > > > > > > > unenlightened, or whatever. About keeping unwanted > energies > > > > away, > > > > > > the > > > > > > > great sage Mick Jagger said it best: "You can't always > get > > > > what > > > > > > you > > > > > > > want/but if you try sometimes/you just might find/you get > > > what > > > > > you > > > > > > > need." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "NMadasamy" > > > > > <nmadasamy@s...> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Mahandranatha wrote : She helps to keep unwanted > energies > > > and > > > > > > stupid > > > > > > > > people away from her devotees by creating the illusion > > that > > > > her > > > > > > > > devotee is ucchista=unclean also, while in fact this is > > > only > > > > > > divine > > > > > > > > illusion to protect the knowledge from the dualists. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes agreed. Sometimes DEVI will throw in the GEM and > > > > purposely > > > > > > make > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > look like a fake. Only those who knows to differentiate > > > > between > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > real and the fake will be able to recognise it. This > you > > > cant > > > > > > learn > > > > > > > > from the book. It must come from first hand experience > > and > > > > from > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > master themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2005 Report Share Posted September 8, 2005 Namaskaar Mary Ann what a Devi or devata does I can only accept, they are a higher being that has reasons for doing things which I cannot necessarily appreciate, I trust that whatever they do it is by the absolute will of God . We must also be careful to understand that we are trying to judge or impose our value judgements relative to our era of time . These are immortals that have seen things we can only imagine at, to judge their rationale for actions might not necessarily be healthy as we are in a learning stage. People will behave in ugly ways for a number of reasons 1) Egoism 2) Selfishness 3) Cruelty 4) Genetic programming inherited from ancestors 5) Unclean energy - over development of tamas guna in the energy fields, chakras etc. These are the primary sources and there may be more. No I am not saying that they are our psychic projections at all, they are individual energies that are part of the absolute reality, they have the ability to descend to our level of consciousness, communicate with us and then return from whence they came ( at great sacrifice on their part I might add ! ) We revere them for a number of reasons 1) Because they are part of the source energy our subconscious remembers this. 2) By continuous worship they become the object of adoration, hence the more we perform devotion the more we like them. 3) When one worships a Devi/Devata there is an exchange of energy, we become accustomed to their energy over time. 4) When we examine our ancestors who worshipped them for thousands of years we are fond of their energy as it is a part of us. Dhanyavaad Pandit Devindra Maharaj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 Some more info about Naga worship Of Costal Karnataka, http://www.udupipages.com/temple/naga.html Regards, Prasad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 Thank you for your clarification. , Dev Maharaj <dev_maharaj> wrote: > Namaskaar > > Mary Ann what a Devi or devata does I can only accept, > they are a higher being that has reasons for doing > things which I cannot necessarily appreciate, I trust > that whatever they do it is by the absolute will of > God . We must also be careful to understand that we > are > trying to judge or impose our value judgements > relative to our era of time . These are immortals that > have seen things we can only imagine at, to judge > their rationale for actions might not necessarily be > healthy as we are in a learning stage. > > People will behave in ugly ways for a number of > reasons > 1) Egoism > 2) Selfishness > 3) Cruelty > 4) Genetic programming inherited from ancestors > 5) Unclean energy - over development of tamas guna in > the energy fields, chakras etc. > > These are the primary sources and there may be more. > > No I am not saying that they are our psychic > projections at all, they are individual energies that > are part of the absolute reality, they have the > ability to descend to our level of consciousness, > communicate with us and then return from whence they > came ( at great sacrifice on their part I might add ! > ) > We revere them for a number of reasons > 1) Because they are part of the source energy our > subconscious remembers this. > 2) By continuous worship they become the object of > adoration, hence the more we perform devotion the > more we like them. > 3) When one worships a Devi/Devata there is an > exchange > of energy, we become accustomed to their energy > over > time. > 4) When we examine our ancestors who worshipped them > for thousands of years we are fond of their energy > as it is a part of us. > > Dhanyavaad > Pandit Devindra Maharaj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 To me Shiva was always connected with the full cycle of life, Brahma is only concerned with creation Vishnu with Preservation, to preserve (he is the most politically correct deity of the two, being concernend with the preservation of the world order) Shiva though primarly associated with the dissolution is the only one of these three who reaches down to the old the ugly and decaying because that is part of the dissolution. He is the full cycle. He includes all. We try to keep the ugly, the old, decript and the sick away from us. We dont want to see or think of people dying sick poor or suffering. The same we also do to our selwe repress our negative emotions and other expressions instead of transforming them. Shiva does expose himself also to the ugly realities of life he even seeks company of the ghosts in the cremation grounds etc. to me this is a symbol that there is no unclean or evil existing per se, everything can be transformend, all the worlds from Brahma to the ends of the underworld is his self. Also we should rejects nothing because that would only reduce our power and knowledge and ability to act. Because of his comprehensive nature shiva is more intimately connected to final emancipation than any other deity who are only expressing and managing parts of the whole, and do open the gate to emancipation to the few that respond to their wavelength so to say, and of course the non dual realisation is harder to reach when you are devoted to a deity who expresses a "narrow bandwidth" No offence meant , "Mary Ann" <buttercookie61> wrote: > Your comments are much appreciated, as usual. Re the below, it isn't > about "political correctness" but that those who are being tread on, > if that is the case, learn to support themselves in whatever way is > most appropriate in any given situation, that is, moving from the > highest internal principle(s) ("Be the change you want to see in the > world"), and in so doing, the external is also elevated. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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