Guest guest Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 I received a mantra from Amma, Ammachi, as Len has called her. I told Amma's attendants in Los Angeles which deity I had chosen, and that I wanted a mantra to the deity that is half Shiva and half Shakti. The assistant told me I had to choose one or the other, Shiva or Shakti. Then that person told Amma something, and Amma gave me a mantra that I knew was not the one I had asked for. I went back and told a Swami that I thought the attendant gave Amma wrong information because I knew the mantra she gave me was not the one I asked for. The swami I spoke to told me to keep the mantra for a year and then come back if I wanted to change it. I said that the fact that someone told Amma wrong information was not a reason for me to keep the wrong mantra for a year. So, they took me up to Amma, explained what had happened, and she gave me my mantra. Though I felt wonderful when Amma gave me the mantra, afterward, the Swami that I was sent to to receive instructions spoke kind of harshly. Imagine a swami instructing you with his arms across his chest, sneering. He said one of the words by kind of spitting it out as if there was something wrong with it: rupinyai. I remember that I was still in a magical place from receiving the mantra, and I offered to hug him, and he said no. I do not know what he found offensive about the mantra. Since then, I have wondered what the words in it do indicate. I think there may be bias in certain tendencies in language. I think maybe the swami was saying that the mantra did not equally honor the feminine, but I don't really know, and haven't found out yet. If anyone knows, feel free to offer the information. Maybe it depends on the surrounding words, not just the one he "spit out," but I haven't told my mantra to anyone because I was told not to. Later, I read in a book that Amma actually recommends that people say the mantra I chose before they receive a mantra from the guru. And there was my mantra printed in that book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Hi Ann Sorry to hear the experience that you did undergo but end of it you were blessed and you got what you asked for Everyone surrounding a holy person need not have all the qualities as there holy teacher Thankfully in my first experience, when I got to meet my Tibetan Teacher, there were good and humble translators Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Len inserts comments below. --- Mary Ann <buttercookie61 wrote: > I received a mantra from Amma, Ammachi, as Len has > called her. > > I told Amma's attendants in Los Angeles which deity > I had chosen, > and that I wanted a mantra to the deity that is half > Shiva and half > Shakti. The assistant told me I had to choose one or > the other, > Shiva or Shakti. Then that person told Amma > something, and Amma gave > me a mantra that I knew was not the one I had asked > for. I went back > and told a Swami that I thought the attendant gave > Amma wrong > information because I knew the mantra she gave me > was not the one I > asked for. The swami I spoke to told me to keep the > mantra for a > year and then come back if I wanted to change it. I > said that the > fact that someone told Amma wrong information was > not a reason for > me to keep the wrong mantra for a year. So, they > took me up to Amma, > explained what had happened, and she gave me my > mantra. > > Though I felt wonderful when Amma gave me the > mantra, afterward, the > Swami that I was sent to to receive instructions > spoke kind of > harshly. Mary Ann, it is VERY unusual for a devotee to argue with the Guru, or the Guru's assistants. Amma is a Mahatma, she has certain psychic abilities. Do you think she would give you a mantra that was inappropriate? You seem to imply that the Swami was castigating you for being an "uppity woman," but I think a man who behaved similarly would have gotten similar harsh treatment. This does seem to explain why, in earlier posts, you claimed that the Swamis were not as reliable or helpful to Amma's devotees as Amma herself was. > Imagine a swami instructing you with his > arms across his > chest, sneering. He said one of the words by kind of > spitting it out > as if there was something wrong with it: rupinyai. I > remember that I > was still in a magical place from receiving the > mantra, and I > offered to hug him, and he said no. We're dealing with different cultures here, Mary Ann! A swami has taken a vow of brahmacharya. He is not supposed to entertain sexual thoughts, or even to be alone with a woman for extended periods. To Westerners, a hug is a simple gesture of reassurance; to a celibate priest, it's an offer by a "kamini" ("lustful woman") to press her attractive body against his, and arouse all sorts of sexual thoughts! > I do not know what he found > offensive about the mantra. I think he found your behavior offensive (i.e., protesting at the original mantra Amma gave you), not the mantra per se. If you had asked for a mantra for "Ardhanarishvara" -- one deity (even though containing two), perhaps you wouldn't have gotten the hassle. Of course, if you had asked for "ArdhanarESHvarI" (the last vowels indicating that this is the androgyne with Shakti to the RIGHT side), there might have been similar quibbles... > > Since then, I have wondered what the words in it do > indicate. I > think there may be bias in certain tendencies in > language. I think > maybe the swami was saying that the mantra did not > equally honor the > feminine, but I don't really know, and haven't found > out yet. If > anyone knows, feel free to offer the information. > Maybe it depends > on the surrounding words, not just the one he "spit > out," "Rupinyai" simply means "in the form of" with a feminine ending. > but I > haven't told my mantra to anyone because I was told > not to. Your mantra is secret, it should not be bandied about. If you have an acquaintance you trust who speaks Sanskrit, you might share it with her/him for translation. One of my coveners went to get a mantra from Ammachi. She had no strong feelings towards any of the Hindu deities (and didn't want a Jesus mantra, either -- people get those!), so asked Amma to pick one for her. The mantra given her was a long list of Beejas (seed syllables) -- she wnted to know "what does it mean," and shared it with ME, her Wiccan High Priest. She later left my coven after a big fight with me -- I don't think having shared her secret mantra with me helped any. > > Later, I read in a book that Amma actually > recommends that people > say the mantra I chose before they receive a mantra > from the guru. > And there was my mantra printed in that book. > No change? Amma usually "tweaks" the mantra for individuals, adding a particular Beeja, or otherwise personalizing it. Another Guru has mantras listed in a book that I bought, and imagine MY surprise when I saw the mantra Amma gave me, there in another Guru's text! But obviously, Amma felt this mantra was appropriate for me. There is a story about an ancient sage, whose Guru taught him a secret mantra. The sage felt EVERYONE should have the benefit of this mantra, and so taught it to everyone whom he met. That's how the Shiva Mahamantra (om namah shivaya) became universally known and is not kept a secret. -- Len FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Mary Ann wrote : Imagine a swami instructing you with his arms across his chest, sneering. He said one of the words by kind of spitting it out as if there was something wrong with it: rupinyai. I remember that I was still in a magical place from receiving the mantra, and I offered to hug him, and he said no. Len Rosenberg <kalipadma108> wrote: We're dealing with different cultures here, Mary Ann! A swami has taken a vow of brahmacharya. He is not supposed to entertain sexual thoughts, or even to be alone with a woman for extended periods. To Westerners, a hug is a simple gesture of reassurance; to a celibate priest, it's an offer by a "kamini"("lustful woman") to press her attractive body against his, and arouse all sorts of sexual thoughts! hahhhhaa this explains it all. I once chatting with this person who claim to be a Jr Swami from some ashram. He is the one who been contacting me, trying to extract information abt my sadhana. Anyway as the conversation goes on okay actually until at the end, I just jokingly send him a smiley flying kiss face. He got offended. Told me :Hey! that is not a good face you just sent. I responded " huh! what not good". "That smiley flying kissy face is not good". Gosh! I never have any other sexual or naughty thoughts went I send those faces. hahhaaaa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Hi Len, The system in requesting a mantra from Amma, as I understand it, is that the person asks for the mantra of their choosing. Isn't that what you did? Why would you assume that I should take a mantra that I knew not to be the one I chose, due to having been told by an American assistant (not near Amma) that no mantra combined both Shiva and Shakti, and I needed to pick one or the other? That's ludicrous (imHo:) Yes, there are definitely cultural differences, and I completely appreciate your sharing your views on that. I have encountered some difficulties posting here on Shakti Sadhana that I think stem from these differences, and from my either not recognizing them, or not according them the weight that others seem to think is imperative. You may not trust my view on this, but I was there, and it seemed to be something in the word of the mantra that the swami disdained. That's what I got, anyway, from his repeating the word outside of saying the mantra, and saying it the way that he did. But as I said, he did not explain what he meant by his actions. , Len Rosenberg <kalipadma108> wrote: > > > Len inserts comments below. > > > --- Mary Ann <buttercookie61> wrote: > > > I received a mantra from Amma, Ammachi, as Len has > > called her. > > > > I told Amma's attendants in Los Angeles which deity > > I had chosen, > > and that I wanted a mantra to the deity that is half > > Shiva and half > > Shakti. The assistant told me I had to choose one or > > the other, > > Shiva or Shakti. Then that person told Amma > > something, and Amma gave > > me a mantra that I knew was not the one I had asked > > for. I went back > > and told a Swami that I thought the attendant gave > > Amma wrong > > information because I knew the mantra she gave me > > was not the one I > > asked for. The swami I spoke to told me to keep the > > mantra for a > > year and then come back if I wanted to change it. I > > said that the > > fact that someone told Amma wrong information was > > not a reason for > > me to keep the wrong mantra for a year. So, they > > took me up to Amma, > > explained what had happened, and she gave me my > > mantra. > > > > Though I felt wonderful when Amma gave me the > > mantra, afterward, the > > Swami that I was sent to to receive instructions > > spoke kind of > > harshly. > > Mary Ann, it is VERY unusual for a devotee to argue > with the Guru, or the Guru's assistants. Amma is a > Mahatma, she has certain psychic abilities. Do you > think she would give you a mantra that was > inappropriate? You seem to imply that the Swami was > castigating you for being an "uppity woman," but I > think a man who behaved similarly would have gotten > similar harsh treatment. > > This does seem to explain why, in earlier posts, you > claimed that the Swamis were not as reliable or > helpful to Amma's devotees as Amma herself was. > > > > Imagine a swami instructing you with his > > arms across his > > chest, sneering. He said one of the words by kind of > > spitting it out > > as if there was something wrong with it: rupinyai. I > > remember that I > > was still in a magical place from receiving the > > mantra, and I > > offered to hug him, and he said no. > > We're dealing with different cultures here, Mary Ann! > A swami has taken a vow of brahmacharya. He is not > supposed to entertain sexual thoughts, or even to be > alone with a woman for extended periods. To > Westerners, a hug is a simple gesture of reassurance; > to a celibate priest, it's an offer by a "kamini" > ("lustful woman") to press her attractive body against > his, and arouse all sorts of sexual thoughts! > > > > I do not know what he found > > offensive about the mantra. > > I think he found your behavior offensive (i.e., > protesting at the original mantra Amma gave you), not > the mantra per se. If you had asked for a mantra for > "Ardhanarishvara" -- one deity (even though containing > two), perhaps you wouldn't have gotten the hassle. Of > course, if you had asked for "ArdhanarESHvarI" (the > last vowels indicating that this is the androgyne with > Shakti to the RIGHT side), there might have been > similar quibbles... > > > > > > Since then, I have wondered what the words in it do > > indicate. I > > think there may be bias in certain tendencies in > > language. I think > > maybe the swami was saying that the mantra did not > > equally honor the > > feminine, but I don't really know, and haven't found > > out yet. If > > anyone knows, feel free to offer the information. > > Maybe it depends > > on the surrounding words, not just the one he "spit > > out," > > "Rupinyai" simply means "in the form of" with a > feminine ending. > > > > but I > > haven't told my mantra to anyone because I was told > > not to. > > > Your mantra is secret, it should not be bandied about. > If you have an acquaintance you trust who speaks > Sanskrit, you might share it with her/him for > translation. > > One of my coveners went to get a mantra from Ammachi. > She had no strong feelings towards any of the Hindu > deities (and didn't want a Jesus mantra, either -- > people get those!), so asked Amma to pick one for her. > The mantra given her was a long list of Beejas (seed > syllables) -- she wnted to know "what does it mean," > and shared it with ME, her Wiccan High Priest. She > later left my coven after a big fight with me -- I > don't think having shared her secret mantra with me > helped any. > > > > > > Later, I read in a book that Amma actually > > recommends that people > > say the mantra I chose before they receive a mantra > > from the guru. > > And there was my mantra printed in that book. > > > > > No change? Amma usually "tweaks" the mantra for > individuals, adding a particular Beeja, or otherwise > personalizing it. > > Another Guru has mantras listed in a book that I > bought, and imagine MY surprise when I saw the mantra > Amma gave me, there in another Guru's text! But > obviously, Amma felt this mantra was appropriate for > me. > > There is a story about an ancient sage, whose Guru > taught him a secret mantra. The sage felt EVERYONE > should have the benefit of this mantra, and so taught > it to everyone whom he met. That's how the Shiva > Mahamantra (om namah shivaya) became universally known > and is not kept a secret. > > -- Len > > > > > > > FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. > http://farechase. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Namaste Vikram. Yes, I do feel blessed by Amma. I am happy to hear of your experience. , vikram vanam <vikram_vanam2005> wrote: > > Hi Ann > > Sorry to hear the experience that you did undergo but end of it you were blessed and you got what you asked for > > Everyone surrounding a holy person need not have all the qualities as there holy teacher > > Thankfully in my first experience, when I got to meet my Tibetan Teacher, there were good and humble translators > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 I got Amma's darshan for the first time last week when she was here in the UK. When she hugged me, she whispered something in my ear. She repeated it several times. I had not asked her or her assistants for a mantra or anything. Was it a mantra? Do you only receive a mantra if you ask for it? The worst of it is...she said it soooo fast I desperately tried to remember it but I can't ( I only remember the last word!! What to do? , "Mary Ann" <buttercookie61> wrote: > > I received a mantra from Amma, Ammachi, as Len has called her. > > I told Amma's attendants in Los Angeles which deity I had chosen, > and that I wanted a mantra to the deity that is half Shiva and half > Shakti. The assistant told me I had to choose one or the other, > Shiva or Shakti. Then that person told Amma something, and Amma gave > me a mantra that I knew was not the one I had asked for. I went back > and told a Swami that I thought the attendant gave Amma wrong > information because I knew the mantra she gave me was not the one I > asked for. The swami I spoke to told me to keep the mantra for a > year and then come back if I wanted to change it. I said that the > fact that someone told Amma wrong information was not a reason for > me to keep the wrong mantra for a year. So, they took me up to Amma, > explained what had happened, and she gave me my mantra. > > Though I felt wonderful when Amma gave me the mantra, afterward, the > Swami that I was sent to to receive instructions spoke kind of > harshly. Imagine a swami instructing you with his arms across his > chest, sneering. He said one of the words by kind of spitting it out > as if there was something wrong with it: rupinyai. I remember that I > was still in a magical place from receiving the mantra, and I > offered to hug him, and he said no. I do not know what he found > offensive about the mantra. > > Since then, I have wondered what the words in it do indicate. I > think there may be bias in certain tendencies in language. I think > maybe the swami was saying that the mantra did not equally honor the > feminine, but I don't really know, and haven't found out yet. If > anyone knows, feel free to offer the information. Maybe it depends > on the surrounding words, not just the one he "spit out," but I > haven't told my mantra to anyone because I was told not to. > > Later, I read in a book that Amma actually recommends that people > say the mantra I chose before they receive a mantra from the guru. > And there was my mantra printed in that book. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Len comments below. --- Mary Ann <buttercookie61 wrote: > > The system in requesting a mantra from Amma, as I > understand it, is > that the person asks for the mantra of their > choosing. Isn't that > what you did? Not exactly. My experience was, you tell an assistant that you want a mantra. At some point while sitting before Amma, she asks through an interpreter, "What form of God do you worship?" You tell her your Ishtadevata, and she chooses a mantra for you. One of my coveners went up and said, "I want a Shiva mantra, but I want one specifically for Nataraja, the Dancing Lord. I don't wan to chant 'om namah shivaya.'" This left the Swamis non-plussed for a while, and my covener got to sit for half an hour beside Ammachi, bathing in her aura (which got him very high!). The Swamis later explained that they were looking up in various texts whether there was a particular configuration of syllables with which to invoke Nataraja, and eventually they gave Amma the mantra, which she gave to my coven-brother. Another friend of mine, the late David Ganesh, who had lived in India, went up and asked specifically for the fifteen-syllable Shodasi mantra. He was told by the Swamis that he needed to study for many years with a Shree Vidya Guru to be initiated in that mantra, and to pick another. He declined. A year or two later, he went up for regular darshan to Amma, handed her an index card on which he had written the 15 syllable Shodasi mantra, and as she read it, he said, "I have requested initiation in this mantra from you." It's unclear what (if anything) Amma did -- I don't think she whispered the mantra in David's ear. But from that darshan hug, David "considered" himself initiated in the 15 syllable mantra! (The hubris of the man!) It was probably NOT a coincidence that David's health rapidly declined thereafter, and he died about two or three years later. So the devotees ask Amma for some kind of mantra to worship their Ishta with, but generally they don't ask for (or get) a specific mantra of their choosing -- the choice is usually left to Amma. > Why would you assume that I should > take a mantra that > I knew not to be the one I chose, due to having been > told by an > American assistant (not near Amma) that no mantra > combined both > Shiva and Shakti, and I needed to pick one or the > other? That's > ludicrous (imHo:) Now I'm learning a new item. My experience is that the men I call "Swamis" or "priests" are Indian men, dressed in white or saffron robes, who are initiated renunciate monks. If the guy who argued with you was an American assistant, not an Indian, and probably just dressed in white clothes, no robes, he was an assistant but probably no Swami. (Amma has a few American-born Swamis, but I gather that they usually stay in the Kerala ashram.) I still think that if you had asked for a mantra for Ardhanarishvara, there would have been no problem. But it's a moot point, now. > > Yes, there are definitely cultural differences, and > I completely > appreciate your sharing your views on that. I have > encountered some > difficulties posting here on Shakti Sadhana that I > think stem from > these differences, and from my either not > recognizing them, or not > according them the weight that others seem to think > is imperative. > > You may not trust my view on this, but I was there, > and it seemed to > be something in the word of the mantra that the > swami disdained. > That's what I got, anyway, from his repeating the > word outside of > saying the mantra, and saying it the way that he > did. But as I said, > he did not explain what he meant by his actions. My own experiences with the (Indian) Swamis has been wonderful. I went back a few years after my mantra initiation, and asked for a SECOND mantra. I explained that I wanted to add Ganesha's blessing to the Goddess mantra I had received. And a Swami carefully explained to me that Amma only gives her devotees ONE mantra to work with. That all the names and forms of the various deities are portions of Brahman, and "when you are talking to the Goddess, do you think that Ganesha isn't hearing you, too?" He suggested that I visualize Ganesha alongside the Goddess as I perform my mantra, which I have been doing. I also often visualize Amma as present, as well. One of the introductory blessings in Tantric (and Vedic, I think) ritual invokes 1.) Ganesha (to remove obstacles), 2.) your Guru (for guidance), and 3.) the Shakti (for divine Power). And that works for me. -- Len Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 --- her_asha <her_asha wrote: > I got Amma's darshan for the first time last week > when she was here in > the UK. When she hugged me, she whispered something > in my ear. She > repeated it several times. I had not asked her or > her assistants for a > mantra or anything. > > Was it a mantra? Do you only receive a mantra if you > ask for it? Yes, you only receive a mantra if you ask for one. Amma frequently whispers things in her devotees' ears. It's a blessing. It can be in English, Sanskrit, or a modern Indian language. Some devotees swear that Amma chanted "My daughter, my daughter," to them. (Even sometimes to men!) Others thought it was "maddotta, maddotta," and wondered what the word meant. She often chants to me, "Ma ma ma ma ma ma ma ma ma!" Nine "Ma's." ("Ma" means "mother" in many Indian langages.) Nine is Durga's number. I always get a vivid mind-picture of goddess Durga when she chants this. On another occasion, Amma rubbed my chest and chanted "rang... rang... rang... rang... rang!" Five "rang's" -- "rang" is the Beeja mantra for Fire. (At first hearing, I thought it was "Ram," that she was chanting the name of the hero-king of the Ramayana.) Then I had an image of five red triangles (red triangle is the Tattva symbol for Fire), which circled around and formed a pentacle! Since I'm also a Wiccan, I thought that was significant! But others have pointed out that Swamis sometimes meditate amidst five fires -- bonfires around them at North, South, East, and West, and under the blazing Sun. So perhaps Amma was suggesting I needed to meditate more? > The worst of it is...she said it soooo fast I > desperately tried to > remember it but I can't ( I only remember the last > word!! > > What to do? Accept that you've been blessed. What was the last word? -- Len Start your day with - Make it your home page! http://www./r/hs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Hi Mary Ann, I know what mantra you received from Amma- there is absolutely no reason why the Swami should have been upset with you over this. Amma rates this mantra very highly. I think he got upset with you for your offer to hug him as Len pointed out. This is very offensive to a celibate swami, more so if you are a highly attractive female :-). it was like you were trying to tempt him, something that these swamis are always on the gaurd against especially while in the US. Of course your intentions were highly honourable, and you did not intend anything devious. So you can just forget about the Swami's response. I know that at least one of Amma's swamis is very psychic, so there may be some other reasons... but really who cares. You got your mantra from Amma - thats what counts. You have also shown your determination (and your sincerety in doing japa) by going and asking to receive the correct mantra - Amma always observes such things and I believe she views it positively... -yogaman , "Mary Ann" <buttercookie61> wrote: > > Hi Len, > > The system in requesting a mantra from Amma, as I understand it, is > that the person asks for the mantra of their choosing. Isn't that > what you did? Why would you assume that I should take a mantra that > I knew not to be the one I chose, due to having been told by an > American assistant (not near Amma) that no mantra combined both > Shiva and Shakti, and I needed to pick one or the other? That's > ludicrous (imHo:) > > Yes, there are definitely cultural differences, and I completely > appreciate your sharing your views on that. I have encountered some > difficulties posting here on Shakti Sadhana that I think stem from > these differences, and from my either not recognizing them, or not > according them the weight that others seem to think is imperative. > > You may not trust my view on this, but I was there, and it seemed to > be something in the word of the mantra that the swami disdained. > That's what I got, anyway, from his repeating the word outside of > saying the mantra, and saying it the way that he did. But as I said, > he did not explain what he meant by his actions. > > > , Len Rosenberg > <kalipadma108> wrote: > > > > > > Len inserts comments below. > > > > > > --- Mary Ann <buttercookie61> wrote: > > > > > I received a mantra from Amma, Ammachi, as Len has > > > called her. > > > > > > I told Amma's attendants in Los Angeles which deity > > > I had chosen, > > > and that I wanted a mantra to the deity that is half > > > Shiva and half > > > Shakti. The assistant told me I had to choose one or > > > the other, > > > Shiva or Shakti. Then that person told Amma > > > something, and Amma gave > > > me a mantra that I knew was not the one I had asked > > > for. I went back > > > and told a Swami that I thought the attendant gave > > > Amma wrong > > > information because I knew the mantra she gave me > > > was not the one I > > > asked for. The swami I spoke to told me to keep the > > > mantra for a > > > year and then come back if I wanted to change it. I > > > said that the > > > fact that someone told Amma wrong information was > > > not a reason for > > > me to keep the wrong mantra for a year. So, they > > > took me up to Amma, > > > explained what had happened, and she gave me my > > > mantra. > > > > > > Though I felt wonderful when Amma gave me the > > > mantra, afterward, the > > > Swami that I was sent to to receive instructions > > > spoke kind of > > > harshly. > > > > Mary Ann, it is VERY unusual for a devotee to argue > > with the Guru, or the Guru's assistants. Amma is a > > Mahatma, she has certain psychic abilities. Do you > > think she would give you a mantra that was > > inappropriate? You seem to imply that the Swami was > > castigating you for being an "uppity woman," but I > > think a man who behaved similarly would have gotten > > similar harsh treatment. > > > > This does seem to explain why, in earlier posts, you > > claimed that the Swamis were not as reliable or > > helpful to Amma's devotees as Amma herself was. > > > > > > > Imagine a swami instructing you with his > > > arms across his > > > chest, sneering. He said one of the words by kind of > > > spitting it out > > > as if there was something wrong with it: rupinyai. I > > > remember that I > > > was still in a magical place from receiving the > > > mantra, and I > > > offered to hug him, and he said no. > > > > We're dealing with different cultures here, Mary Ann! > > A swami has taken a vow of brahmacharya. He is not > > supposed to entertain sexual thoughts, or even to be > > alone with a woman for extended periods. To > > Westerners, a hug is a simple gesture of reassurance; > > to a celibate priest, it's an offer by a "kamini" > > ("lustful woman") to press her attractive body against > > his, and arouse all sorts of sexual thoughts! > > > > > > > I do not know what he found > > > offensive about the mantra. > > > > I think he found your behavior offensive (i.e., > > protesting at the original mantra Amma gave you), not > > the mantra per se. If you had asked for a mantra for > > "Ardhanarishvara" -- one deity (even though containing > > two), perhaps you wouldn't have gotten the hassle. Of > > course, if you had asked for "ArdhanarESHvarI" (the > > last vowels indicating that this is the androgyne with > > Shakti to the RIGHT side), there might have been > > similar quibbles... > > > > > > > > > > Since then, I have wondered what the words in it do > > > indicate. I > > > think there may be bias in certain tendencies in > > > language. I think > > > maybe the swami was saying that the mantra did not > > > equally honor the > > > feminine, but I don't really know, and haven't found > > > out yet. If > > > anyone knows, feel free to offer the information. > > > Maybe it depends > > > on the surrounding words, not just the one he "spit > > > out," > > > > "Rupinyai" simply means "in the form of" with a > > feminine ending. > > > > > > > but I > > > haven't told my mantra to anyone because I was told > > > not to. > > > > > > Your mantra is secret, it should not be bandied about. > > If you have an acquaintance you trust who speaks > > Sanskrit, you might share it with her/him for > > translation. > > > > One of my coveners went to get a mantra from Ammachi. > > She had no strong feelings towards any of the Hindu > > deities (and didn't want a Jesus mantra, either -- > > people get those!), so asked Amma to pick one for her. > > The mantra given her was a long list of Beejas (seed > > syllables) -- she wnted to know "what does it mean," > > and shared it with ME, her Wiccan High Priest. She > > later left my coven after a big fight with me -- I > > don't think having shared her secret mantra with me > > helped any. > > > > > > > > > > Later, I read in a book that Amma actually > > > recommends that people > > > say the mantra I chose before they receive a mantra > > > from the guru. > > > And there was my mantra printed in that book. > > > > > > > > > No change? Amma usually "tweaks" the mantra for > > individuals, adding a particular Beeja, or otherwise > > personalizing it. > > > > Another Guru has mantras listed in a book that I > > bought, and imagine MY surprise when I saw the mantra > > Amma gave me, there in another Guru's text! But > > obviously, Amma felt this mantra was appropriate for > > me. > > > > There is a story about an ancient sage, whose Guru > > taught him a secret mantra. The sage felt EVERYONE > > should have the benefit of this mantra, and so taught > > it to everyone whom he met. That's how the Shiva > > Mahamantra (om namah shivaya) became universally known > > and is not kept a secret. > > > > -- Len > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. > > http://farechase. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2005 Report Share Posted October 29, 2005 I am finding it difficult to understand why would a teacher depend on his/her students to pull out a mantra from scriptures to give initiations to his/her students Its only when the teacher has acheived in receiving the benefits of the mantra that he/her received can only then give it to there students Len Rosenberg <kalipadma108 wrote: Len comments below. --- Mary Ann <buttercookie61 wrote: > > The system in requesting a mantra from Amma, as I > understand it, is > that the person asks for the mantra of their > choosing. Isn't that > what you did? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2005 Report Share Posted October 29, 2005 I want to share this particualr incidence with members. My sister was taking training in Bharatnatyam dancing and was very passionate about it. Infact, she wanted tobe a professional dancer. She met Sringeri acharayal(Like amma) and asked for blessing. but, he turned his head and refused to bless her. She felt very humuliated and wanted to know the reason. She spoke to his assistant, but, acharayal refused to give any reason. She persued her dancing and gave some programmes while she went to study in states. She could have even married and settled in States. Instead, her passion for dancing was so intense, she decided to return and continue her training. - She met her future parter via parents recommendation, He was in art field and promised that he would give her all the encouragement to continue. The fact is, after marriage his family objected and he refused to give her permission. To cut short the whole story , this marriage was a total disappointment . Now, neither she works nor persues dancing. Infact, she has no interest in dancing. Dance remained a failed dream. Why I am narrating this incidence is that maybe acharayal could forsee her future that is the reason he did not bless her. The difference between ordinary and truely spritually evolved people is that they can forsee the future but we are trapped with present desire or problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2005 Report Share Posted October 29, 2005 Hi Len, I think it's great that you've had good experiences with Swamis, assistants, etc. But when other people have different kinds of experiences, it doesn't make those people wrong, mistaken, lesser, unevolved, disrespectful, etc. Your friend's illness may have been part of his blessing. As Shakespeare said, "there are more things in Heaven and Earth... than are dreamt of in your philosophy." You seem to have a strong punishment-oriented view -- not uncommon in this world, but known to be painful. When I read your posts to me on this topic, I remembered your comments about your body in previous posts re hathayoga. I wondered at a possible connection between the physical difficulties and the punishing mentality - I'm not making a direct causal link, necessarily, but I felt a hint of a possible link of some sort. Are you familiar with Marshall Rosenberg's work? I recently listened to Speaking Peace - Connecting With Others Through Nonviolent Communication, and from there, have already ordered more, and purchased CDs of his as gifts. It's wonderful work, simple techniques that effectively changing relationship . He teaches worldwide, individuals, couples, groups, governments. I highly recommend it. Namaste, Mary Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2005 Report Share Posted October 29, 2005 Thanks yogaman. I think the swami was ruffled because instead of following his direction, I asked him to let Amma know the information of my exchange with the American assistant. I am thankful that he did do that, but that may have been part of his annoyance. Like, what's so great about this mantra? I mean, "rupinyai" after all! ;-) This fear swamis may have of interacting with women reminds me of a criticism I read of the cave-dwelling kind of spiritual attainment: that it's so much easier to maintain a sense of integrity in accordance with book-learned spiritual principles (as opposed to fully realized ones) by living in a cave and not interacting with that in oneself which challenges the ego. Namaste, Mary Ann , "childofdevi" <childofdevi> wrote: > > Hi Mary Ann, > > I know what mantra you received from Amma- there is absolutely no > reason why the Swami should have been upset with you over this. Amma > rates this mantra very highly. > > I think he got upset with you for your offer to hug him as Len > pointed out. This is very offensive to a celibate swami, more so if > you are a highly attractive female :-). it was like you were trying > to tempt him, something that these swamis are always on the gaurd > against especially while in the US. Of course your intentions were > highly honourable, and you did not intend anything devious. So you > can just forget about the Swami's response. > > I know that at least one of Amma's swamis is very psychic, so there > may be some other reasons... but really who cares. You got your > mantra from Amma - thats what counts. You have also shown your > determination (and your sincerety in doing japa) by going and asking > to receive the correct mantra - Amma always observes such things and > I believe she views it positively... > > -yogaman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2005 Report Share Posted October 29, 2005 Hi Rajeshwariji, Thanks for sharing this story. May I ask which Acharya you are referring to - I think it is the former Sringeri Acharya who was a great saint. Also I believe that even if there is a possibility of disasters happening at a later time, these can be changed with our sincere sadhana, thoughts and intentions. I see this sometimes when looking at astrological charts, where at very bad times, everything goes on smoothly. Again somewhere in the Bhagavatam, there is a saying (I am not sure if this is by Narada or Akrura or someone else) "That after travelling all over the world, I have observed that the good man who is steadfastedly devoted to God never suffers". -yogaman , "rajeshwari iyer" <rajii31@h...> wrote: > > > > I want to share this particualr incidence with members. > > My sister was taking training in Bharatnatyam dancing and was very > passionate about it. Infact, she wanted tobe a professional dancer. > > She met Sringeri acharayal(Like amma) and asked for blessing. but, he turned > his head and refused to bless her. She felt very humuliated and wanted to > know the reason. She spoke to his assistant, but, acharayal refused to give > any reason. > > She persued her dancing and gave some programmes while she went to study in > states. She could have even married and settled in States. Instead, her > passion for dancing was so intense, she decided to return and continue her > training. - She met her future parter via parents recommendation, He was in > art field and promised that he would give her all the encouragement to > continue. > > The fact is, after marriage his family objected and he refused to give her > permission. To cut short the whole story , this marriage was a total > disappointment . Now, neither she works nor persues dancing. Infact, she has > no interest in dancing. Dance remained a failed dream. > > Why I am narrating this incidence is that maybe acharayal could forsee her > future that is the reason he did not bless her. > > The difference between ordinary and truely spritually evolved people is that > they can forsee the future but we are trapped with present desire or > problems. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2005 Report Share Posted October 29, 2005 Hi Vikram, These rules apply to relatively ordinary Gurus, who may have attained mantra-siddhi in one particular mantra. Limitation to initiating many mantras does not apply to great saintly avatars (eg Sivananda, Ramakrishna etc) who have been known to initiate people in lots of mantra. They could probably even initiate some into mantra like "Bullshit" :-), they can imbue any mantra with considerable power by their very intention. -yogaman , vikram vanam <vikram_vanam2005> wrote: > > I am finding it difficult to understand why would a teacher depend on his/her students to pull out a mantra from scriptures to give initiations to his/her students > > Its only when the teacher has acheived in receiving the benefits of the mantra that he/her received can only then give it to there students > > Len Rosenberg <kalipadma108> wrote: > > Len comments below. > > --- Mary Ann <buttercookie61> wrote: > > > > > The system in requesting a mantra from Amma, as I > > understand it, is > > that the person asks for the mantra of their > > choosing. Isn't that > > what you did? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2005 Report Share Posted October 29, 2005 It is true. It is also my understanding that REAL saintly avatar-like Jagad Gurus, as you have just mentioned, can be of any tradition or lineage and initiate into many types of mantras (i.e, Shaivite Mahatma can give one a Vishnu Mantra, etc.). Regarding AMMACHI and her use of the Swamis to facilitate giving mantras: I feel that Mahatmas such as AMMACHI should NEVER be second guessed. Her use of the Swamis should be viewed as her personal "Leela" or play. She does it that way, as she knows best, and it is never our place to guess or speculate on what power she has imbued in those "swamis" to facilitate those mantras from her. The Eastern way is to take unquestioningly what a true Guru has given, whereas the Western tendency is to question everything and everybody; parents, Gurus, God, and everything else, as we always want to lead with the intellect. It is a cultural dichotomy that definitely can't be reconciled here in a few sentences. My two rupees. JANARDANA DAS childofdevi <childofdevi wrote: Hi Vikram, These rules apply to relatively ordinary Gurus, who may have attained mantra-siddhi in one particular mantra. Limitation to initiating many mantras does not apply to great saintly avatars (eg Sivananda, Ramakrishna etc) who have been known to initiate people in lots of mantra. They could probably even initiate some into mantra like "Bullshit" :-), they can imbue any mantra with considerable power by their very intention. -yogaman , vikram vanam <vikram_vanam2005> wrote: > > I am finding it difficult to understand why would a teacher depend on his/her students to pull out a mantra from scriptures to give initiations to his/her students > > Its only when the teacher has acheived in receiving the benefits of the mantra that he/her received can only then give it to there students > > Len Rosenberg <kalipadma108> wrote: > > Len comments below. > > --- Mary Ann <buttercookie61> wrote: > > > > > The system in requesting a mantra from Amma, as I > > understand it, is > > that the person asks for the mantra of their > > choosing. Isn't that > > what you did? > Visit your group "" on the web. FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2005 Report Share Posted October 29, 2005 > annoyance. Like, what's so great about this mantra? I Ah, when you get a mantra that venerates She who is of the combined form of Shiva and Shakti, you got two for the price of one if you ask me LOL. -yogaman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2005 Report Share Posted October 29, 2005 Namaste everyone: I must tell you that I was mantra initiated by Ammachy, just the way it is mentiioned here. yes, it was the swamis who found me the mantra, but having full trust in her, I never doubted that SHE is the doer of every action. This was years back and there is nothing that will persuade me otherwise, not when you have hadas good a glimpse of who she really is as I have had. Nelson Majano , Janardana Dasa <lightdweller> wrote: > > Regarding AMMACHI and her use of the Swamis to facilitate giving mantras: I feel that Mahatmas such as AMMACHI should NEVER be second guessed. Her use of the Swamis should be viewed as her personal "Leela" or play. She does it that way, as she knows best, and it is never our place to guess or speculate on what power she has imbued in those "swamis" to facilitate those mantras from her. > > The Eastern way is to take unquestioningly what a true Guru has given, whereas the Western tendency is to question everything and everybody; parents, Gurus, God, and everything else, as we always want to lead with the intellect. It is a cultural dichotomy that definitely can't be reconciled here in a few sentences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 And what is so wonderful in how Ammachi has come to the west is that she is allows and invites western ways of experiencing, acting, receiving, etc. without judgment. She is aware that east and west each have their good and not so good qualities. My experience is that she does not think that all should be or act just the way it is expected or required in one place only. Why, that would be death in life! Ammachi reaches so many people with such a wonderful message of how a loving, compassionate heart is God, and that we should not judge others, or speak ill of others. To do so is to judge and speak ill of ourselves, and of the Self. , "Azul Lejos" <azulejo6682> wrote: > > Namaste everyone: I must tell you that I was mantra initiated by > Ammachy, just the way it is mentiioned here. yes, it was the swamis > who found me the mantra, but having full trust in her, I never > doubted that SHE is the doer of every action. This was years back > and there is nothing that will persuade me otherwise, not when you > have hadas good a glimpse of who she really is as I have had. > > Nelson Majano > > , Janardana Dasa > <lightdweller> wrote: > > > > Regarding AMMACHI and her use of the Swamis to facilitate giving > mantras: I feel that Mahatmas such as AMMACHI should NEVER be second > guessed. Her use of the Swamis should be viewed as her > personal "Leela" or play. She does it that way, as she knows best, > and it is never our place to guess or speculate on what power she > has imbued in those "swamis" to facilitate those mantras from her. > > > > The Eastern way is to take unquestioningly what a true Guru has > given, whereas the Western tendency is to question everything and > everybody; parents, Gurus, God, and everything else, as we always > want to lead with the intellect. It is a cultural dichotomy that > definitely can't be reconciled here in a few sentences. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 ;-) , "childofdevi" <childofdevi> wrote: > > > > annoyance. Like, what's so great about this mantra? I > > Ah, when you get a mantra that venerates She who is of the combined > form of Shiva and Shakti, you got two for the price of one if you ask > me LOL. > > -yogaman > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 >Ammachi reaches so many people with such a >wonderful message >of how a loving, compassionate heart is God, and >that we should not >judge others, or speak ill of others. To do so is >to judge and speak >ill of ourselves, and of the Self. And yet you have judged the swami who initiated you with the mantra. How hypocritical -------------- Original message -------------- And what is so wonderful in how Ammachi has come to the west is that she is allows and invites western ways of experiencing, acting, receiving, etc. without judgment. She is aware that east and west each have their good and not so good qualities. My experience is that she does not think that all should be or act just the way it is expected or required in one place only. Why, that would be death in life! Ammachi reaches so many people with such a wonderful message of how a loving, compassionate heart is God, and that we should not judge others, or speak ill of others. To do so is to judge and speak ill of ourselves, and of the Self. , "Azul Lejos" <azulejo6682> wrote: > > Namaste everyone: I must tell you that I was mantra initiated by > Ammachy, just the way it is mentiioned here. yes, it was the swamis > who found me the mantra, but having full trust in her, I never > doubted that SHE is the doer of every action. This was years back > and there is nothing that will persuade me otherwise, not when you > have hadas good a glimpse of who she really is as I have had. > > Nelson Majano > > , Janardana Dasa > <lightdweller> wrote: > > > > Regarding AMMACHI and her use of the Swamis to facilitate giving > mantras: I feel that Mahatmas such as AMMACHI should NEVER be second > guessed. Her use of the Swamis should be viewed as her > personal "Leela" or play. She does it that way, as she knows best, > and it is never our place to guess or speculate on what power she > has imbued in those "swamis" to facilitate those mantras from her. > > > > The Eastern way is to take unquestioningly what a true Guru has > given, whereas the Western tendency is to question everything and > everybody; parents, Gurus, God, and everything else, as we always > want to lead with the intellect. It is a cultural dichotomy that > definitely can't be reconciled here in a few sentences. > Visit your group "" on the web. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 In what way have I judged the swami? I exercised my own discernment regarding the mantra I had asked for, and the swami acted of his own accord in the scheme of all that. And he brougth me to Amma, who gave me the mantra I had requested. As I said before, I don't really know what the swami meant by his actions after I received the mantra I had requested. It isn't judging him to feel confused, and to feel, also, that if he had a valid point to make, I might have understood it better if he'd actually told me what the point was. However, maybe he didn't even know what he was getting at. Maybe he was annoyed. Or, perhaps, as suggested by other members, he was simply blinded by my human female beauty and cannot be held responsible for his own actions LOL , bsubramaniam@c... wrote: > > >Ammachi reaches so many people with such a >wonderful message > >of how a loving, compassionate heart is God, and >that we should not > >judge others, or speak ill of others. To do so is >to judge and speak > >ill of ourselves, and of the Self. > > > And yet you have judged the swami who initiated you with the mantra. How hypocritical Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 This was not to offend you. After reading your original email, the following come to mind. Getting a mantra initiation from a Guru is not like a purchasing transaction. You did not like the product & therefore exchanged it. Guru gives a mantra for a person as he/she perceives appropriate at that time. This is not like poor customer service that you complained about. One does not question the reason for Guru giving a particular mantra(period). Many do not get the mantra they are seeking. The Guru may sometime give them a different mantra either for preparing them eventually to receive the mantra they are seeking or may consider a different mantra appropriate for the disciple. Without Siva there is no Sakti and without Sakti there is no Siva. The Mahaswamigal of Kanchi Mutt has eloquently described this in his commentary on Saundarya Lahari. Quoting “Even according to the Sakta system, it is not possible to separate Sakti from Siva and make the former an outward entity. The two are like the lamp and its flame, like the flower and its fragrance, like milk and its whiteness, like honey and its sweetness, like the word and its meaning. Are not these pairs inseparably bound together? …The mutual bond between Siva and Sakti must always be felt by us in the innermost recesses of our hearts.” If you pray to Sakti you are praying to Siva & vice versa whether the mantra is for Ardanarishwara or not. Sanskrit pronunciation differs considerably from Kashmir to Tamil Nadu in India. A mantra like "Om Sivasaktyaikya Rupinyai Namah" even though very clear as far as pronunciation in sanskrit will be pronounced with varying accent across various parts of India. The judgment that I take objection to is the fact that you judged swami as having spa out the word rupinyai in your mantra. You did not elucidate whether you asked him if he found the mantra given to you as a problem or any such query. Yet you passed judgment on the fact that he spat out the word. Did you find out if your mantra required pronunciation in a particular way? Also, when teaching mantra to people who do not know Sanskrit, each word/break is sometimes pronounced in such a way that it is clear, but may sound guttural or harsh when compared to a mantra that is chanted continuously. Without exploring these, it is wrong to pass judgment. It is common practice that people are not allowed to touch Sankaracharya at most times. It does not matter whether it is a male or female. There would be consternation if anyone tries to touch Sankaracharya. Even a person's head touching his feet is not allowed at most times. There are times when he allows people to wash his feet & fall at his feet. He may also touch their head as a sign of blessings. These however are not the norm, but on specific occasions & time. Therefore there does not have to be any ulterior feelings for the swami refusing to hug you. He does not have to embrace western etiquette. -------------- Original message -------------- In what way have I judged the swami? I exercised my own discernment regarding the mantra I had asked for, and the swami acted of his own accord in the scheme of all that. And he brougth me to Amma, who gave me the mantra I had requested. As I said before, I don't really know what the swami meant by his actions after I received the mantra I had requested. It isn't judging him to feel confused, and to feel, also, that if he had a valid point to make, I might have understood it better if he'd actually told me what the point was. However, maybe he didn't even know what he was getting at. Maybe he was annoyed. Or, perhaps, as suggested by other members, he was simply blinded by my human female beauty and cannot be held responsible for his own actions LOL , bsubramaniam@c... wrote: > > >Ammachi reaches so many people with such a >wonderful message > >of how a loving, compassionate heart is God, and >that we should not > >judge others, or speak ill of others. To do so is >to judge and speak > >ill of ourselves, and of the Self. > > > And yet you have judged the swami who initiated you with the mantra. How hypocritical Deepavali greeting Traditions Divine Visit your group "" on the web. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2005 Report Share Posted October 31, 2005 Thank you so much for taking the time to offer your thoughts on this topic. Amma gives the Ardhanarishwara mantra to anyone and everyone freely; she recommends it in Immortal Light, her book of advice to householders, as a starting place. I feel blessed to have come to that mantra on my own, through my exposure to the Ardhanarishwara/i her at Shakti Sadhana , through my hathayoga practice, and via all my other studies, practices, experiences, etc. before I read about this in Amma's book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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