Guest guest Posted November 19, 2005 Report Share Posted November 19, 2005 > A seeker wrote: > I have a question: In advanced tantric rites there is a ceremony which > indicates that the student take part in 5 things. These are five > elements starting with the letter "m": madya (wine), mamsha (meat), > matsya (fish), mudra (grain) and maithuna (sexual intercourse). One > of my former teachers insisted that the ceremony be done just like it > sounds; drink, eat, make love. Although the ceremony itself was > beautiful, I didn't feel the power or importance that it supposedly > contains. Maybe I'm just a spoiled Westerner? > > Another teacher, who was influenced more by Western tradition, ex- > plained that these 5 things are metaphors for our taboos, and the > artificial "selves" we wrap around our own Naked Flame for the rest > of the world to see. He set up a 5M's ritual to disassemble that > "ego" structure by challenging me with letting go of my Likes, my > Fears, my Image, my Goals and my Sexual Attitudes. > > Which way does everyone else play it? Is there yet another way to > do this 5M's ritual that I havn't been exposed to? Dear Seeker, In the ancient Ayurvedic knowledge (the knowledge of ayu or life), the body is said to be composed of 7 layers (dhatus). I've listed these 7 layers below, followed by a comparison with the 5 components of the panchamakara ritual. See for yourself if you don't notice the strong similarity. To me, this reveals that the panchamakara ritual is de- signed to take us from the grossest to the subtlest level of the body (the relative field of life) - to refine and expand the body (the relative field of life) to its ultimate reality. And since the human body is just a microcosm of the cosmic body (the body of God/Goddess), the goal of the panchamakara ritual must be to lead us to that cosmic, God/Goddess body which is the source of all this relative existence. Isn't that the goal of tantra - to expand to our vast, cosmic, unbounded, divine nature as God/Goddess? THE 7 DHATUS OF AYUR VEDA (vital elements; dhatu = constructing element) Listed from grossest (#1 - most manifest) to subtlest (#7 - most ephemeral and powerful): 1. Rasa (chyle, lymph, plasma, literally 'sap' or 'juice') 2. Rakta (red blood cells) 3. Mamsa (muscle) 4. Meda (fat) 5. Asthi (bone) 6. Majja (anything inside a bone - bone marrow, brain, spinal cord) 7. Shukra (sexual fluids - reproductive essence) Shukra is vital. It is the foundation for all the six layers above it. It acts as a matrix through which new creations manifest; it is the clay which creative intelligence shapes into the forms. When individual ego (ahamkara) couples with shukra calmly and collectedly, the newly created substance remains within the body and solidifies the link between the physical, mental/emo- tional, and spiritual components. This substance is called 'ojas'. It creates wholeness. THE FIVE (PANCHA) MAKARAS OF TANTRA - 5 M's 1) MADYA Wine 2) MAMSA Literally "flesh" or "muscle". 3) MATSYA Fish 4) MUDRA Cereal wafer (a grain recipe with a hidden inner filling) 5) MAITHUNA Sexual union in a ritual context. Now, let's put these 5 makaras together with the 7 dhatus: 1) MADYA Wine 1. Rasa (chyle, lymph, plasma, literally 'sap' or 'juice') 2. Rakta (red blood cells) 2) MAMSA Literally "flesh" or "muscle". 3. Mamsa (muscle) 3) MATSYA Fish 4. Meda (fat) 4) MUDRA Cereal wafer (a grain recipe with a hidden inner filling) 5. Asthi (bone) 6. Majja (anything inside a bone - bone marrow, brain, spinal cord) 5) MAITHUNA Sexual union in a ritual context. 7. Shukra (sexual fluids - reproductive essence) A pretty close fit, which hints at a more profound understanding of the real depth that panchamakara was designed to elicit - nothing less than the transcendence of the gross physical, the expansion of the small, constricted, bound physical body to its subtlest, most powerful, most divine possibility. So the panchamakara ritual was a process designed to lead our aware- ness from the gross physical level of life, through its subtler and subtler values, to its subtlest, most expanded, most celestial, most vast, most divine value - the cosmic body of God/Goddess. As an interesting aside, we could look at how this same knowledge is expressed in many spiritual traditions, for instance in The Last Supper & Christian Communion: 1) MADYA Wine 1. Wine - "my blood" Present at The Last Supper - preserved in Holy Communion 2) MAMSA Literally "flesh" or "muscle". Present at The Last Supper 3) MATSYA Fish Present at The Last Supper 4) MUDRA Cereal wafer (a grain recipe with a hidden inner filling) 2. Wafer - "my body" Present at The Last Supper - preserved in Holy Communion Possibly incorporates Mamsa, Matsya, and Mudra for simplification? 5) MAITHUNA Sexual union in a ritual context. 3. Holy Communion - "union of the physical with the spiritual" Present at The Last Supper - preserved in Holy Communion So was Holy Communion a symbolic panchamakara ritual? Did they know something back then that's been "erased" from today's version of that tradition? CONCLUSION Has the modern tantric interpretation of this ritual also lost some of its profound depth, and over the course of thousands of years of Kali Yuga (a time of deep ignorance) been interpreted in more and more superficial, physical ways? Is it really merely a ceremony of confronting traditional spiritual ta- boos and challenging the attachments of the individual ego? Or is it a step-by-step instruction for transcending the gross physical and ac- tually becoming God/Goddess in ecstatic eternal cosmic communion? Isn't that the real goal of tantra - expansion from Self-realization to God/Goddess realization, by investigating every layer of the rela- tive field of life until we embrace its ultimate divine value? That's an investigation worth pursuing. That's an experience worth having. Namaste, Michael PARA - THE CENTER FOR REALIZATION Michael Dean Goodman Ph.D., D.D., Director Boca Raton (Palm Beach County) FL * 641-919-3700 * tantra Clients and programs throughout the United States, Europe, and India PARA MEANS "BEYOND" Go beyond what you already know Unlock your full potential Set yourself free Enjoy peace/awareness/ecstasy (sat/chit/ananda) SPIRITUAL GUIDANCE: Meditation/yoga for Self-realization Dive inward - transcend - wake up and remember who you really are Tantra for God-realization Expand outward - unfold your masculine/feminine, God/Goddess nature Satsang/Vedanta for Unity Integrate these two - inner & outer - for wholeness of life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2005 Report Share Posted November 19, 2005 Namaste, i believe the goal of Tantric union [in what is also the Kaula tradition] (below) is the realisation of divine nature in human beings - reflecting the Sacred Marriage or 'Hieros Gamos' is doing just this. you don't need the 5 M's to do this - you don't need a magic circle, they are there to help realisation, they are not that moment in themselves. ritual is good, it is creative, but it is not an end in itself. making love is a holy communion - this is the kernal - the rest is ritual. Kundalini Yoga is exactly the same thing, but in the individual - the meeting of Shiva and Shakti in the Sahasrara Chakra - divine union - Hieros Gamos. i also believe this 'Yin Yang' sacred coming together of the sexes is the basis of many if not all religions Jai Ma - Krisna Das , Michael Dean Goodman <Tantra@c...> wrote: > > > A seeker wrote: > > I have a question: In advanced tantric rites there is a ceremony > which > indicates that the student take part in 5 things. These are five > > elements starting with the letter "m": madya (wine), mamsha (meat), > > matsya (fish), mudra (grain) and maithuna (sexual intercourse). One > > of my former teachers insisted that the ceremony be done just like it > > sounds; drink, eat, make love. Although the ceremony itself was > > beautiful, I didn't feel the power or importance that it supposedly > > contains. Maybe I'm just a spoiled Westerner? > > > > Another teacher, who was influenced more by Western tradition, ex- > > plained that these 5 things are metaphors for our taboos, and the > > artificial "selves" we wrap around our own Naked Flame for the rest > > of the world to see. He set up a 5M's ritual to disassemble that > > "ego" structure by challenging me with letting go of my Likes, my > > Fears, my Image, my Goals and my Sexual Attitudes. > > > > Which way does everyone else play it? Is there yet another way to > > do this 5M's ritual that I havn't been exposed to? > > > > Dear Seeker, > > In the ancient Ayurvedic knowledge (the knowledge of ayu or life), the > body is said to be composed of 7 layers (dhatus). I've listed these 7 > layers below, followed by a comparison with the 5 components of the > panchamakara ritual. See for yourself if you don't notice the strong > similarity. To me, this reveals that the panchamakara ritual is de- > signed to take us from the grossest to the subtlest level of the body > (the relative field of life) - to refine and expand the body (the > relative field of life) to its ultimate reality. > > And since the human body is just a microcosm of the cosmic body (the > body of God/Goddess), the goal of the panchamakara ritual must be to > lead us to that cosmic, God/Goddess body which is the source of all > this relative existence. Isn't that the goal of tantra - to expand > to our vast, cosmic, unbounded, divine nature as God/Goddess? > > > THE 7 DHATUS OF AYUR VEDA (vital elements; dhatu = constructing element) > > Listed from grossest (#1 - most manifest) to subtlest (#7 - most > ephemeral and powerful): > > 1. Rasa (chyle, lymph, plasma, literally 'sap' or 'juice') > 2. Rakta (red blood cells) > 3. Mamsa (muscle) > 4. Meda (fat) > 5. Asthi (bone) > 6. Majja (anything inside a bone - bone marrow, brain, spinal cord) > 7. Shukra (sexual fluids - reproductive essence) > > Shukra is vital. It is the foundation for all the six layers > above it. It acts as a matrix through which new creations > manifest; it is the clay which creative intelligence shapes into > the forms. When individual ego (ahamkara) couples with shukra > calmly and collectedly, the newly created substance remains within > the body and solidifies the link between the physical, mental/emo- > tional, and spiritual components. This substance is called 'ojas'. > It creates wholeness. > > > THE FIVE (PANCHA) MAKARAS OF TANTRA - 5 M's > > 1) MADYA Wine > 2) MAMSA Literally "flesh" or "muscle". > 3) MATSYA Fish > 4) MUDRA Cereal wafer (a grain recipe with a hidden inner filling) > 5) MAITHUNA Sexual union in a ritual context. > > > Now, let's put these 5 makaras together with the 7 dhatus: > > 1) MADYA Wine > 1. Rasa (chyle, lymph, plasma, literally 'sap' or 'juice') > 2. Rakta (red blood cells) > > 2) MAMSA Literally "flesh" or "muscle". > 3. Mamsa (muscle) > > 3) MATSYA Fish > 4. Meda (fat) > > 4) MUDRA Cereal wafer (a grain recipe with a hidden inner filling) > 5. Asthi (bone) > 6. Majja (anything inside a bone - bone marrow, brain, spinal cord) > > 5) MAITHUNA Sexual union in a ritual context. > 7. Shukra (sexual fluids - reproductive essence) > > A pretty close fit, which hints at a more profound understanding of > the real depth that panchamakara was designed to elicit - nothing > less than the transcendence of the gross physical, the expansion of > the small, constricted, bound physical body to its subtlest, most > powerful, most divine possibility. > > So the panchamakara ritual was a process designed to lead our aware- > ness from the gross physical level of life, through its subtler and > subtler values, to its subtlest, most expanded, most celestial, most > vast, most divine value - the cosmic body of God/Goddess. > > > As an interesting aside, we could look at how this same knowledge > is expressed in many spiritual traditions, for instance in The Last > Supper & Christian Communion: > > 1) MADYA Wine > 1. Wine - "my blood" > Present at The Last Supper - preserved in Holy Communion > > 2) MAMSA Literally "flesh" or "muscle". > Present at The Last Supper > > 3) MATSYA Fish > Present at The Last Supper > > 4) MUDRA Cereal wafer (a grain recipe with a hidden inner filling) > 2. Wafer - "my body" > Present at The Last Supper - preserved in Holy Communion > Possibly incorporates Mamsa, Matsya, and Mudra for simplification? > > 5) MAITHUNA Sexual union in a ritual context. > 3. Holy Communion - "union of the physical with the spiritual" > Present at The Last Supper - preserved in Holy Communion > > So was Holy Communion a symbolic panchamakara ritual? > Did they know something back then that's been "erased" from today's > version of that tradition? > > > CONCLUSION > > Has the modern tantric interpretation of this ritual also lost some > of its profound depth, and over the course of thousands of years of > Kali Yuga (a time of deep ignorance) been interpreted in more and > more superficial, physical ways? > > Is it really merely a ceremony of confronting traditional spiritual ta- > boos and challenging the attachments of the individual ego? Or is it > a step-by-step instruction for transcending the gross physical and ac- > tually becoming God/Goddess in ecstatic eternal cosmic communion? > Isn't that the real goal of tantra - expansion from Self-realization > to God/Goddess realization, by investigating every layer of the rela- > tive field of life until we embrace its ultimate divine value? > > That's an investigation worth pursuing. > That's an experience worth having. > > Namaste, > > Michael > > PARA - THE CENTER FOR REALIZATION > Michael Dean Goodman Ph.D., D.D., Director > Boca Raton (Palm Beach County) FL * 641-919-3700 * tantra@c... > Clients and programs throughout the United States, Europe, and India > > PARA MEANS "BEYOND" > Go beyond what you already know > Unlock your full potential > Set yourself free > Enjoy peace/awareness/ecstasy (sat/chit/ananda) > > SPIRITUAL GUIDANCE: > Meditation/yoga for Self-realization > Dive inward - transcend - wake up and remember who you really are > Tantra for God-realization > Expand outward - unfold your masculine/feminine, God/Goddess nature > Satsang/Vedanta for Unity > Integrate these two - inner & outer - for wholeness of life > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2005 Report Share Posted November 20, 2005 , Michael Dean Goodman <Tantra@c...> wrote: Greetings, >In the ancient Ayurvedic knowledge (the knowledge of ayu or life), the body is said to be composed of 7 layers (dhatus). I've listed these 7 layers below, followed by a comparison with the 5 components of the panchamakara ritual. First of all, let us take into account the fact that no Kaula text makes this connection (at least up to my knowledge). Although there may be a correlation, it is very much casual. This is a typical situation for Hinduism – like that there is no one exact correspondence of charkas of body with grahas, planets. And so on. The whole argument presented on this matter of dhatus + 5M is questionable and hypothetic. >See for yourself if you don't notice the strong similarity. To me, this reveals that the panchamakara ritual is designed to take us from the grossest to the subtlest level of the body (the relative field of life) - to refine and expand the body (the relative field of life) to its ultimate reality. Basically this idea of transcendence is correct although to a certain degree. It has to be kept in mind that the goal of Kula path is not leaving the world but the realization of the highest state in this very world itself (jagadananda). Thus on one hand a Kaula adept transcends all planes of diversity while on the other he brings the Divinity into manifestation. It is all relative of course, we cannot seriously speak of any kind of "going up" or "down" in the light of everything being Siva. To the tantric the word "body" is figural, it stands for manifestation of the power of consciousness. >And since the human body is just a microcosm of the cosmic body (the body of God/Goddess), the goal of the panchamakara ritual must be to lead us to that cosmic, God/Goddess body which is the source of all this relative existence. Isn't that the goal of tantra - to expand to our vast, cosmic, unbounded, divine nature as God/Goddess? This is true. >Listed from grossest (#1 - most manifest) to subtlest (#7 - most ephemeral and powerful): 1. Rasa (chyle, lymph, plasma, literally 'sap' or 'juice') 2. Rakta (red blood cells) 3. Mamsa (muscle) 4. Meda (fat) 5. Asthi (bone) 6. Majja (anything inside a bone - bone marrow, brain, spinal cord) 7. Shukra (sexual fluids - reproductive essence) Here another question arises: what is the basis of given order of dhatus? I am in no way an expert in ayurveda, but judging upon Tantric sourses the order is not this. For example, Lalita-sahasranama (being a Tantric part inside Brahmanda-purana) given the following order, corresponding to sapta-chakra: asthi, medas, mamsa, tvak, majja, shukla. Thus situation changes. >THE FIVE (PANCHA) MAKARAS OF TANTRA - 5 M's 1) MADYA Wine 2) MAMSA Literally "flesh" or "muscle". 3) MATSYA Fish 4) MUDRA Cereal wafer (a grain recipe with a hidden inner filling) 5) MAITHUNA Sexual union in a ritual context. I will argue that the order is exactly opposite to what U had suggested. This sequence from madya to maithuna stands for descent of Shakti – and NOT to accent. Usual order must have been from mudra – it is mudra which corresponds to earth element and asthi- dhatu. But it is starting from wine, madya, which is agni. Why? We get the answer from the Kaula doctrine reflected in Tantras and live tradition. Madya and mamsa stand for mental plane, matsya – for emotional and mudra with maithuna – for gross. These 5 are dealt with in Devi-mahatmya story – as 5 demons killed by Ambika. These 5 are forms of the famous 5 doors to sin: kama, krodha, ahankara, lobha, moha. Consummation of these 5 substances (kuladravya) is symbolical for Devi eating these demons. And this consummation is not simple destruction but integrating and transforming of these 5 "evil" elements. As a matter of fact the process of inner transformation goes from up to down, starting from bhAva and going down to its outer manifestation in the sexual congress. There is a mystery herein: this last stage is a crown to the whole sequence, being the ultimate revelation of Divine nature in "objectivity", thus perfect self-realization of Atman, Siva. It is when the divine energy descended to the most down, to muladhara (or patala – if we use more elaborate system of lokas) the complete perfection is achieved. >A pretty close fit, which hints at a more profound understanding of the real depth that panchamakara was designed to elicit - nothing less than the transcendence of the gross physical, the expansion of the small, constricted, bound physical body to its subtlest, most powerful, most divine possibility. Correct but from a very different perspective… >So the panchamakara ritual was a process designed to lead our aware- ness from the gross physical level of life, through its subtler and subtler values, to its subtlest, most expanded, most celestial, most vast, most divine value - the cosmic body of God/Goddess. Exactly right again. The key word is "body" – the realization of Divine Body, Kula-kaya, is achieved in the process of enjoyment of the world. Then "bhogo yogAyate sAkShAt", as Kularnava says. Why does sexual union has such a prominent position? Because it is the utmost manifestation of Love and Bliss, which is the very heart of Divinity. >As an interesting aside, we could look at how this same knowledge is expressed in many spiritual traditions, for instance in The Last Supper & Christian Communion: Interesting and correct comparison. But there comes a point of proper understanding of communion in Christian dogma. Christianity teaches that wine and bread undergo the process of transsubstan?iation, their very nature changes into divine. When a believer consummates these two he enters into the holy communion with Christ, joining the Divine Body, Church. The communion is a symbol of "marital feast", sacred marriage of Messiah and his bride. I won't go into detailed speculation on the regard, it is not essential for a Hindu mystical discussion list. But essentially it is right that communion of Christianity mystically understood is similar to the holy communion of Kula, that unites one with the Body of Godhead. >Has the modern tantric interpretation of this ritual also lost some of its profound depth, and over the course of thousands of years of Kali Yuga (a time of deep ignorance) been interpreted in more and more superficial, physical ways? Isn't it a funny argument? The revelation of Tantra was manifested in this world in the very midst of kaliyuga, historically we can trace the existence of Tantrism from about 5th century CE. And from its early form of Bhairavagamas to consequent form of Kashmiri Tantric traditions and later shakta schools the doctrine remains the same in essence and all its basic features. >Is it really merely a ceremony of confronting traditional spiritual taboos and challenging the attachments of the individual ego? Or is it a step-by-step instruction for transcending the gross physical and ac- tually becoming God/Goddess in ecstatic eternal cosmic communion? Isn't that the real goal of tantra - expansion from Self-realization to God/Goddess realization, by investigating every layer of the rela- tive field of life until we embrace its ultimate divine value? It is both and more. But the essence of 5M is the revelation of Divine Nature. Love is the law, love under will. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2005 Report Share Posted November 20, 2005 Mostly correct, with the exception of the note on kundalini-yoga. This matter was already dealt with so i won't go into delail again. Yes, it is Love that saves. No ritual, no ascetism, no "yoga", no good deeds. A , "m6" <megalith6@h...> wrote: > > Namaste, > > i believe the goal of Tantric union [in what is also the Kaula > tradition] (below) is the realisation of divine nature in human > beings - reflecting the Sacred Marriage or 'Hieros Gamos' is doing > just this. > > you don't need the 5 M's to do this - you don't need a magic circle, > they are there to help realisation, they are not that moment in > themselves. ritual is good, it is creative, but it is not an end in > itself. > > making love is a holy communion - this is the kernal - the rest is > ritual. > > Kundalini Yoga is exactly the same thing, but in the individual - the > meeting of Shiva and Shakti in the Sahasrara Chakra - divine union - > Hieros Gamos. > > i also believe this 'Yin Yang' sacred coming together of the sexes is > the basis of many if not all religions > > Jai Ma - > > Krisna Das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 , Michael Dean Goodman <Tantra@c...> wrote: > > > A seeker wrote: > > I have a question: In advanced tantric rites there is a ceremony > which > indicates that the student take part in 5 things. These are five > > elements starting with the letter "m": madya (wine), mamsha (meat), > > matsya (fish), mudra (grain) and maithuna (sexual intercourse). One > > of my former teachers insisted that the ceremony be done just like it > > sounds; drink, eat, make love. Although the ceremony itself was > > beautiful, I didn't feel the power or importance that it supposedly > > contains. Maybe I'm just a spoiled Westerner? Don t know about "spoiled", but I d agree that different practices may be effective for different persons. In the words of Siva Candra Vidyarnava (a Bengali tantrik poet, scholar and guru, writing about 100 years ago): "Different diets have been prescribed in different cases, according to the nature of the disease." (Woodroffe (ed); Principles of Tantra; Ganesh, Madras, 1986; Vol I page 186.) Om Shantih Colin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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