American woman denied access to temple

December 13, 2005

>>"I never had any real problems either.

-

Len Rosenberg

Tuesday, December 13, 2005 9:06 AM

Re: American Woman Denied Temple Entry

Elizabeth Usha Harding, the author of "Kali, Black Goddess of

Dakshineshwar"

had no trouble entering the temple in Kolkata. I guess she convinced

the

priests that she was a Hindu!

My Canadian friend Brian also had no trouble entering Hindu temples

when he

visited India. But he was dressed in a dhoti, wearing rudrakshas and

the

sacred cord his Guru gave him. And a few days in the Indian sun

turned him

brown as a berry. (I'm envious! Centuries of my ancestors

interbreeding with

Eastern Europeans has left me seriously melanin-deficient.)

-- Len"<<

Actually, this IS a "problem" in some of the temples of India. It

depends on the Temple. When I was in India in 2001 at the Maha

Kumbha Mela, we were simply told point-blank in Varanasi, that

Westerners (Hindu or not, practitioners or not, devoted to Shiva or

not) were not welcome in the Golden Shiva Temple. WE were told to go

next door to a shop, walk upstairs and we could look over at the

Temple..period! One person I knew (a petite, dark-haired, olive-

skinned woman, a scholar of Vedanta and deeply committed

practitioner) decided to try and "pass" because she wanted so badly

to worship in this Temple she had read so much about. She went to

the Temple in a sari, with full devotion to God, was,

somehow "discoverd", shoved, beaten and thrown out (literally)onto

the street. I'm sure everyone here has also heard the story of Shree

Maa "putting a curse" on this same Temple because she was not

allowed to enter with Swami Satyananda Saraswati (a Western man who

is the translator of major texts and pujas from Sanskrit to English

and a "god realized" soul). According to the story, Shree Maa wanted

to come in with Swamiji and a small number of close disciples (some

of whom were Western). They were denied entrance. As she walked

away, she turned and put a curse on the Temple....the priests then

ran after her, begging her to come inside with her disciples but she

refused. It's nice if you can get a tan, put on a sari and some

rudrakshas and sneak in but wouldn't it be "nicer" if everyone who

wanted to come in a worship was welcomed? Prejudice is prejudice and

ignorance is ignorance, no matter who is exhibiting it.

sadhvi

December 13, 2005

Now all these beginning to make sense, when im being told the real

temple is our body and our home. Why go to the temple where

discrimination still persist. Your home is your temple. Your family is

your temple. Attend and care for that first before going out to all

these temples.

December 14, 2005

You have used a key word 'discrimination'. I believe this is what it is all

about. Like you say our body is our temple. However there are certain very

powerful spiritual places in this world, meaning where positive viberations are

stronger because some great soul or event took place there. Somewhat akin to

visiting an Art Gallery or a Concert Hall. While it is sad that many religious

places are 'commercialised' or 'bigoted', I agree with NMadasamy that if

internally be be focussed, then we will not be influenced by the externals of

thse places but will rater absorb and experience their internals. Let's not

give up on life !

NMadasamy <nmadasamy wrote:

Now all these beginning to make sense, when im being told the real

temple is our body and our home. Why go to the temple where

discrimination still persist. Your home is your temple. Your family is

your temple. Attend and care for that first before going out to all

these temples.

International aid

Devi Traditions

Divine

Visit your group "" on the web.

Shopping

Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Shopping

December 14, 2005

I think it might not be so much anti-Westerner discrimination as much

as it's that this temple is using a super-strict definition of

who "qualifies" as a Hindu.

It is interesting to note that this same temple had banned former PM

Indira Gandhi from entering, even when she was leading the

country ... not because she wasn't wearing a sari, or wasn't brown

enough -- but explicitly because she was married to a Parsi.

Having said that, I'd add that I agree with Nora: All of this

exclusionary, "us, not them" hair-splitting -- whether Hindu, Muslim,

Christian, or whatever -- serves the most useful purpose of reminding

us that, while all of this outer ritual is all well and good, the

real temple we should be attending to is the one that we embody.

DB

, Redder Red <redderred>

wrote:

>

> You have used a key word 'discrimination'. I believe this is what

it is all about. Like you say our body is our temple. However

there are certain very powerful spiritual places in this world,

meaning where positive viberations are stronger because some great

soul or event took place there. Somewhat akin to visiting an Art

Gallery or a Concert Hall. While it is sad that many religious

places are 'commercialised' or 'bigoted', I agree with NMadasamy

that if internally be be focussed, then we will not be influenced by

the externals of thse places but will rater absorb and experience

their internals. Let's not give up on life !

>

> NMadasamy <nmadasamy@s...> wrote:

> Now all these beginning to make sense, when im being told the

real

> temple is our body and our home. Why go to the temple where

> discrimination still persist. Your home is your temple. Your

family is

> your temple. Attend and care for that first before going out to

all

> these temples.

>

International aid

Devi

Traditions

Divine

>

> Visit your group "" on the web.

>

> Terms of

Service.

>

> Shopping

> Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Shopping

>

December 14, 2005

Well Ive been thinking about this issue. Why is that Temples in

India does not allow "foreigners" eventhough they are Hindus into

their temple whilst places in Singapore and Malaysia where Hindusim

is still very strong allows it. Look at the pics ive taken on

several temple rituals like the kumari pooja, vijayadashmi etc. You

can never take those pics in India but its okay in our part of the

world. Is it because we are more tolerant and open minded. What

cause this open mindedness and tolerance? Our survival. Look at the

geographical location. Over here [ im referrring to SEA] hinduism/

indians are considered the minority. If we continue to be closed

minded, it will not be at our advantage.

But its a different situation in India. I thought

perhaps "discrimination" is not the right word. How

about "ownership". Like we say " this is our land, off limits to

other" or "this is a private property, transpasser will be

persecuted" etc.

While here in Singapore/Malaysia it is a common sight to see a

chinese to be in a hindu temple and vice versa. Many times ive seen

chinese participate in hindu rituals eventhough they do not consider

themselves as Hindus. Even the priest[ majority of which comes from

India] have no choice but to proceed with the rituals. But maybe

back in India he would not.

In several temples, you see chinese deity under the same roof with

hindu deities. Can anyone find such in India? Why is this happening?

Because of our social structures and part of our social

intergration. We cannot afford to close our doors to the society who

wants to get to know us. Its being good neighbour.

"However there are certain very powerful spiritual places in this

world, meaning where positive viberations are stronger because some

great soul or event took place there."

Its not to say that Im totally against going to temple. hey! ive

participate in rituals in temple. We go to temple every week as a

family. This is what i see, you do not need great soul to be in the

temple to bless it or to create a positive energy. Ive been asked

many times : why go to temple if we have an alter in the family.

Should we not just remain at our house. Good question right? These

young uns go to temple and they see a lot of negativity being

displayed at the temple. Many said, the priest is rude. The priest

is money minded, make us pay so much for such a simple ritual

etc...As I see it, temple is like the power house. You go there to

get recharge. The act of going to temple is like a journey we take

in our process to meet the divine. Entering the temple [ from my

viewpoint] is the same as the entering the womb of the mother or the

body of Siva. Before you enter, you remove your "Self". Like the

snake removing its skin. You leave this outside and you came in with

a new identity, the real you. When you are in the temple, its like

you are temporarily dead. You are in the divine realm. Outside world

is does not matter any more. What happen in the temple, you

underwent spiritual purification. When you stand before the divine

in whatever image they represent to you, you are returning to your

point of origin. You emerge from the temple a new person. A new you.

You are the one who create this divine positive energy. These are

the positive energy that confluence in the divine realm. Perhaps

that is why many people said, they have so much problems. They have

mental block, but as soon as they come to specific temple, their

problems get solve. They found the solutions. What causes this? I

belive its the positive energy that surrounds the temple gives rise

to this. The positive energy helps to unblock the block mind. And

this energy fields is the works of everybody who comes to the

temple. If you come with good intentions and divine in nature, the

energy field will capture this. Its like capturing the sun energy in

our effort to conserve energy. I forgot the term for this.

Sometime back im being told about certain kali temple here in

Malaysia/ Ipoh, where kumkum flows from Kali's forehead. I spoke to

my guru about this event, and the only message he have for me: do

not get yourself trap, take this as reinforcement of your faith. You

must move on.

December 14, 2005

, "NMadasamy" <nmadasamy@s...>

wrote:As I see it, temple is like the power house. You go there to

> get recharge. The act of going to temple is like a journey we take

> in our process to meet the divine. Entering the temple [ from my

> viewpoint] is the same as the entering the womb of the mother or

the body of Siva. Before you enter, you remove your "Self". Like the

> snake removing its skin. You leave this outside and you came in

with a new identity, the real you. When you are in the temple, its

like you are temporarily dead. You are in the divine realm. Outside

world is does not matter any more. What happen in the temple, you

> underwent spiritual purification. When you stand before the divine

> in whatever image they represent to you, you are returning to your

> point of origin. You emerge from the temple a new person. A new

you.

Having said all that, something just came to my mind : dosent this

process seems like a rebirth. You are reborn spiritually every time

you goes to temple or after your sadhana. So why do we get ourselves

attached to this celebration of birthdays. Birthdays is our ego

attachment with our physical form. Spiritually then everyday is a

birthday for us.

Any thoughts about this?

December 15, 2005

>>>"I

belive its the positive energy that surrounds the temple gives rise

to this. The positive energy helps to unblock the block mind. And

this energy fields is the works of everybody who comes to the

temple. If you come with good intentions and divine in nature, the

energy field will capture this. Its like capturing the sun energy in

our effort to conserve energy. I forgot the term for this."<<<

Dear NMadasamy,

Thank you for your very interesting thoughts about temples, why we

go to them, what the interest is. I have been thinking about the

various responses to the "American woman denied access.." post and

all of them have been getting me thinking, too, about why I go to a

Temple on particular days, even though I have a wonderful "temple" in

my own home and do puja everday.

As someone mentioned, certain places, because of the presence of a

sage or a saint, have a very intense vibration...you can feel it when

you are there, even if this being has left his/her body. And temples,

where groups have worshipped for centuries (or even months) can hold

these vibrations very strongly. Anyone who believes in the theory of

creation that considers "the word" (Vac) to be how form came into

being or who believes in the power of mantra, for instance, to effect

change, is going to be drawn to a place where long mantras, such as

the Vedas, have been chanted for centuries. The effect that happens in

your own puja room is multiplied hundreds of times by the presence of

other people worshipping and, even more, by the repetition of Stotras,

Archanas, Pujas etc. every day, year after year. When you step into

this space, the walls seem to be permeated with mantra. Then if you

are practicing seriously on your own, in your own puja room/temple,

visiting a Temple can increase the intensity of your own practice. At

least, that has been my experience.

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts on this subject.

sadhvi

December 17, 2005

, "NMadasamy" <nmadasamy@s...>

wrote:

The act of going to temple is like a journey we take

> in our process to meet the divine. Entering the temple [ from my

> viewpoint] is the same as the entering the womb of the mother or

the

> body of Siva. Before you enter, you remove your "Self". Like the

> snake removing its skin. You leave this outside and you came in

with

> a new identity, the real you. When you are in the temple, its like

> you are temporarily dead. You are in the divine realm. Outside

world

> is does not matter any more. What happen in the temple, you

> underwent spiritual purification. When you stand before the divine

> in whatever image they represent to you, you are returning to your

> point of origin. You emerge from the temple a new person. A new

you.

> You are the one who create this divine positive energy.

Excuse me for posting and for my Intrusion. I am aware that Shakti

Sadhana is a Hinduism group of Shakti worship, nonethesless i dare

to express a view once more, that considers worship of Shakti or

Guru not as superior to realisation of your own divinity.

Many people regard the worship of shakti in a religious way,

expressing and believing in a duality of a female Creator of heaven

and earth living somewhere in heaven and a human being living on

earth worshipping this deity as is his duty or because of the "fun"

of it, or because of getting help from the deities.

I do not question or criticize these ideas, i only like to represent

another interpretation, traditioon and understanding of Sadhana and

Puja. I hope it is considered as within the scope of this

group,though it may not be considered religious, if not i beg your

forgiveness for intruding and maybe hurting religious feelings.

I have been raised in a tradition that does not put much effort in

worship of a deity or force considered to be existing outside of

yourself, living in some sort of divine place and endowed with

supernatural powers.

Not that we do not believe that such beings exist, and that it is ok

to worship them, it is just not Our main purpose to worship them

but we instead try to regain our own original divinity.

If one understands the secret of transformation of the poisons to

nectars and the energy of the original childlike self one can turn

gods to ashes and ashes to gods.

I was told to look for the deities within myself, they were said to

exist in my breath and my lungs, they can be heard resounding in

the throb and pulse of the cave of my heart and the pulse of my

womb. They are felt coursing in my prana flow and their primordial

mantras are sounded not be my lips but by the sound of the pumping

and rushing of my blood, the sound of the prana flow and the

distinct inner hissing of the 5 organs. All my pores and hairs of

the skins are realised to be alive little deitiés to crores of

bhairavas and yoginis all breathing in and out, nourishing the

spiritand body. The Yantras painted on bark and molded from metals

are only symbols of the intricate design of the bone yantra(the

skeleton), the blood vessels and the nerve and nadi currents, are

the lines and the holes between the joints are the seats (triangles)

of the deities.

Also the Mountain Kailas, Ganga and Yamuna and the hidden Saraswati,

and prayag, varanasi and other pithas are liberating places of

meditation in the body, and currents of energy following the flowing

of your breath and blood and semen/ovary spinal fluid in your own

body.

I was taught that the Temple is a Symbol of your own body. Every

different part of the temple a symbol of some part of the

human (and divine) body, the eyes, ears, nose, the brain, marrow,

organs, chakras and Nadis, all are represented in the temple by the

different parts of the design.

There is no need to go someplace outside, to a temple of wood or

stones or a pitha, they are an outer symbol of an inner reality,

because all is inside your own body, also all the gods and godesses

are to be found there.

If these are shown outwardly in the temple it is just to remind you

that they are existing in the caves and hidden places of your body.

Because of that conection if you enter a temle you may therefore

rightfully feel that you are to reborn in the womb of a deity.

In the teaching of the Mahasiddha in the Rasayana, the secret of

Immortality is expounded, which is the opposite while being alike at

the same time: Here it is you that gives birth to an immortal

childlike virgin deity in the cave of your own body temple.

This personal deity is grown from the mantra seed that you have

received from your guru, but it is in the beginning a child deity a

Virgin, not yet mature, it is fragile and it has to be strengthenend

and enlivend by Japa, Puja Meditation and Yoga,

The highest fruit of this path is that even your physical body

eventually dissolves in the deity body of pure Energy, the deity

body in union with your jiva can enter the Space and leave the earth

(or choose to stay), then you are free from death and rebirth by

being centered in a body hard and translucent which is

indestructible like a diamond.(this body is called siddhadeha,

Vajradeha, Nirmana Kaya)

This is the Grace passed from Guru to disciple and cared for and

nurtured by generations.

In Adinath Sampradaya the Guru often, after diksha chases the

disciple away, because all the knowledge is containend in this seed

there is no need for formal teaching anymore, because this seed

contains the compressed knowledge of the whole tradition which

naturally unfolds.

It is said that Matsyendranatha rescued the leaves of the lost Kaula

Knowledge from the womb of a fish.

We are the fish immersed in the ocean of the body (samsara) and have

to rescue the lost seed the leaves of the Kaula Knowledge out of the

womb of the fish, which is our mind deluded by the body and sense

impressions which constantly cause the mind to move from object to

object like a fish in the water constantly moves from one place to

another.

I know that many people think that a guru is needed for guidance and

to it his his duty to prevent his disciples from thinking for

themsselfes,and the deities are in heaven and have created the world.

In Natha Sampradaya Guru preserves the seed of Knowledge which is

like a seal and contains an original model of of the deity and the

essence of all Knowledge of liberation.

He has only a simple task like a person preserving a flame in a oil

lamp by nurturing it constantly and providing it with oil. The

saying that the guru is the deity refers only to the act of

preservation of the original seed-deity which is carried like a

lighted lamp in the body of the Guru, his body is like a ship

carrying a rare freight through the ocean of time, to a distant

shore.

You cannot nurture a child by the umbilical cord before the combinend

essence of father and mother have entered the womb and growth has

begun. You cannot educate and raise a child before it is born . That

is why i think diksha must come first and elaborate Sadhana later.

Realising that you are pregnant with your own Goddess, the outer

temple is an extension of yourself, strengthening that state of

primal self awareness , then it is not a place of worship anymore but

a Place of Knowledge of the one Self, Essence of both you the deity

and the Guru like different lamps having the same fire.

December 17, 2005

Perhaps you have heard the saying, "Each to his own, and God for ALL". No

tradition is superior. "Atha ato brahma jijnasa' - "Now there is a sincere

desire for knowledge of the Ultimate" (First sutra of the Brahma Sutras). This

is all that matters. Everything is Divine, so what is Superior ?

mahahradanatha <mahahradanatha wrote: --- In