Guest guest Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 , "mahahradanatha" <mahahradanatha> wrote: > [...] > Even some muslims are nathas- i am without a caste, creed > or religion Here I go again; my curiousity is piqued. When you say, "are nathas", what do you mean by that? And how would you contrast that status with "having a religion"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 , "msbauju" <msbauju> wrote: > > , "mahahradanatha" > <mahahradanatha> wrote: > > [...] > > Even some muslims are nathas- i am without a caste, creed > > or religion > > Here I go again; my curiousity is piqued. > > When you say, "are nathas", what do you mean by that? > And how would you contrast that status with "having a religion"? > The Nathas teachers like Gorakhnatha and Matsyendranatha are known to be founders of the Vajrayana Buddhist that worship mahasiddha Matsyendra as their founder, of certain Islamic Sufi Sects that worship Pir Matsyendranath as their Saint and he is the founder of the Hindu Kaula Sampradaya which has been received by Matsyendra from Adinath Shiva-i suspect that most of the Taoist teaching ascribed to the 8 Immortals have also their origin in the Nine Immortals of the Natha Sampradaya. They also inspired Kabir Panth and Sikhism. But this has been so not only in the past but also in the present day, A "Hindu" saint of the Natha Sampradaya like Shri Shankar Maharaj of Pune was regularly visited by Sufi mystics and ´they discoursed about mystic Islam. A disciple of Shankar Maharaj said: "The aim of a Nath Panthi is to help people without bothering about his own personal liberation. Because of the compassion for all living, he takes birth again and again all over the earth in all communities and not necessarily ordained as a Nath Panthi during that birth." About Sri Shankar maharaj: http://www.dj6qo.de/dnye/Maharaje.htm http://www.shreeswami.org/shankar-maharaj-of-pune.htm http://www.dj6qo.de/gurue/MAHARAJ.html "Situating Sufism and Yoga"1 Carl W. Ernst Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, Series 3, 15:1 (2005), pp. 15-43 The ambiguous relationship between Sufism and yoga may finally be summarized in the striking identification of the founder-figures of the Nath tradition and the esoteric initiators of Islamic lore, which is announced for the first time in The Pool of Nectar. When you have reached this station, and this condition becomes characteristic of you, closely examine three things with thought and discrimination: 1) The embryo, how it breathes while it is in the placenta, though its mother's womb does not respire; 2) the fish, how it breathes in the water, and the water does not enter it; 3) and the tree, how it attracts water in its veins and causes it to reach its heights. The embryo is Shaykh Gorakh, who is Khidr (peace be upon him), the fish is Shaykh Minanath [Matsyendranath], who is Jonah, and the tree is Shaykh Caurangi, who is Ilyas, and they are the ones who have reached the water of life (V.4). The precise significance of this identification is elusive and problematic. The first case recalls ancient Indian associations of the embryo's breath as dispensing with inhalation and exhalation, a goal of yogic breathing exercise.107 The comparison with Khidr rests loosely on his association with water. In the second case, the fish clearly explains the association of Matsyendra ("lord of the fish") with the Prophet Jonah, who spent three days in the belly of a fish. The third case is more obscure. Caurangi (Caurangi Nath) figures alongside Gorakh in the Marathi tradition as a disciple of Matsyendra Nath, and his name comes up in various lists of Siddhas.108 Ilyas (Elijah) is one of the figures in Islamic lore who was granted immunity from death, and he is often pictured as flying in heaven like a bird and sitting in a tree. Tibetan tradition preserves traditions relating to Caurangi in the biographical literature devoted to the eighty-four siddhas. There Caurangi is described as a prince falsely accused of improper advances by his stepmother; as a punishment, he suffered dismemberment and was left under a tree in the forest, but was subsequently saved and initiated into yoga by Matsyendra with the assistance of Gorakh.109 The parallel here probably rests loosely on the tree as the witness to the miraculous restoration of Caurangi's limbs, and as the paradisal site of Elijah's deathless abode. In any case, the three identifications revolve around the practice of breath control, expressed through these allegories. Thus breath control and meditative practice is the underlying theme of the comparison between the Sufi and yogic traditions. www.unc.edu/~cernst/articles/JRAS2.doc Vajrayana buddhist tantra: Luipa's first place in the eighty-four legends could reflect the belief of the narrator, or the translator, that Luipa was First Guru (adi-guru) of the Mahamudra-siddhas in either time or status. Although the Tibetan translator rendered "Luipa" as The Fishgut Eater (Nya Ito zhabs), the root of the word is probably Old Bengali lohita, a type of fish, and Luipa is thus synonymous with Minapa and Macchendra/Matsyendra. Luhipa, Lohipa, Luyipa, Loyipa, are variants of the name. Keith Dowman masters of Mahamudra. Actually i could go on quite awhile in this manner but i think the material is sufficent to prove my point Mahahradanatha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 Thanks, but I think I may have been a bit unclear. I didn't mean to ask specifically about your use of the word "muslims." Let me re-phrase: When you say someone is (or you yourself are) a "natha", what does that mean to you? And how would you contrast that status with "having a religion"? > > Mahahradanatha wrote: > > > [...] > > > Even some muslims are nathas- i am without a caste, creed > > > or religion > > > > msbauju wrote: > > [....] > > When you say, "are nathas", what do you mean by that? > > And how would you contrast that status with "having a religion"? > > > Maharadanatha wrote: > > The Nathas teachers like Gorakhnatha > and Matsyendranatha are known to > be founders of the Vajrayana Buddhist that worship mahasiddha > Matsyendra as their founder, of certain Islamic Sufi Sects > [....] > > "Situating Sufism and Yoga" > > Carl W. Ernst > Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, Series 3, 15:1 (2005), > pp. 15-43 > The ambiguous relationship between Sufism and yoga [....] > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2006 Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 The word "Natha" means dear or "beloved" usually used with respect.. Hence in hindi literatures we read the word like prana natha. Though Gorakshanath's Barapanthis (12sects) is called Natha panthis it does not mean all names ending with natha should belong to this order. We have a famous seer called Sri Balagangadranatha who is not a nathapanthi. Manjunatha is a name of Shiva ,It is a popular name and all manjunathas are not followers of Gorakshanatha. Gandarva tantra says while initiation os Sri Vidya Guru will give his desciple a name ending with "Ananda natha". I guess they do not belong to Matsendaranatha's linage. Regards Prasad - In , "msbauju" <msbauju> wrote: > > Thanks, but I think I may have been a bit unclear. > > I didn't mean to ask specifically about your use of the > word "muslims." > > Let me re-phrase: > > When you say someone is (or you yourself are) a "natha", what does > that mean to you? > And how would you contrast that status with "having a religion"? > > > > Mahahradanatha wrote: > > > > [...] > > > > Even some muslims are nathas- i am without a caste, creed > > > > or religion > > > > > > msbauju wrote: > > > [....] > > > When you say, "are nathas", what do you mean by that? > > > And how would you contrast that status with "having a religion"? > > > > > Maharadanatha wrote: > > > > The Nathas teachers like Gorakhnatha > > and Matsyendranatha are known to > > be founders of the Vajrayana Buddhist that worship mahasiddha > > Matsyendra as their founder, of certain Islamic Sufi Sects > > [....] > > > > "Situating Sufism and Yoga" > > > > Carl W. Ernst > > Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, Series 3, 15:1 (2005), > > pp. 15-43 > > The ambiguous relationship between Sufism and yoga [....] > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2006 Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 The word "natha" also means ruler, sovereign, master, and even Shiva is named Nataraja ( in Sanskrit: “Lord of Dance”), the Hindu god Siva (Shiva) in his form as the cosmic dancer, represented in metal or stone in most Saiva temples of South India. Finally, I do remember the name of Somanatha known as one of the prominent masters of Kashmir’s Shivaism tradition. So, there is no monopoly of this word “natha” with all do respect and this appellative was used long before to name leaders of various spiritual groups and continues to be used accordingly. Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2006 Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 , "msbauju" <msbauju> wrote: > > Thanks, but I think I may have been a bit unclear. > > I didn't mean to ask specifically about your use of the > word "muslims." > > Let me re-phrase: > > When you say someone is (or you yourself are) a "natha", what does > that mean to you? > And how would you contrast that status with "having a religion"? I think i did understand you, i was giving these examples to show that Nath Panth, does not belong to any specific religion, neither Hindu nor Buddha nor Islam, and that the Teachers have been able to express themselves using the symbols of all the major Religion they came in contact with. What that means to me: Of course that means i cannot identify with a specific Religion myself, i have conversed with and had teachers belonging to all major Religions, Sufism, Taoism, Hinduism, Buddhism. Because i am a westerner the Natha Philosopy was an easy approach to the whole subject because there was not so much cultural overhead in the first place, and it was filtered through 2 Generations of western teachers who did not want to change my whole lifestyle before i was allowed to approach, it was an eclectic system always, so being open to other approaches and attitudes than those prescribed is not forbidden but instead it is part of the tradition *g* The answer to "someone is a Natha: I gave the links Sri Shankar maharaj life as a fine example because he showed all the peculiar traits and Powers of a Natha and also the vehement opposition to established Religion, which can be seen by a perusal of the Material presended in the links. Because a definition of the term Natha has been mentionend in another posting i add my take: The term Natha means Lord, and has been applied as an honourable title in other spiritualtraditions as well. Shiva or in the cases of buddhist Vajrasattwa is worshipped as Adinath primal Lord. Because Kartikeyya hast thrown all the Tantra Vidyas into the Ocean in a fit of Anger, all the Tantric Tradition was lost, Matsyendranatha recovered the lost scripture out of the sea, that is why he is considered the first primal human teacher of all tantric sampradayas in Kaliyuga. This position was held before by others for example Khagendranatha who revealed the tantras in another Yuga. It is possible that in the case of srividya the reason for the addition -nath is caused by a reference to this original teachers of all the vidyas. What can be said for shure is that the title Natha appears in all the "tantric" traditions. In this case i used it to mean belonging to Nath Panth. Mahahradantha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2006 Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 Thanks; I think that pretty much answers my questions. Thanks also to Prasad and Dave for their contributions. > > msbauju wrote: > > [....] > > When you say someone is > > (or you yourself are) a "natha", what does > > that mean to you? > > And how would you contrast that > > status with "having a religion"? > > Maharadanath wrote: > [....] > What that means to me: > > [...] i cannot identify with a specific Religion > myself, i have conversed with and had teachers belonging to all > major Religions, Sufism, Taoism, Hinduism, Buddhism. > > Because i am a westerner the > [Western] Natha Philosopy was an easy approach to > the whole subject because there > was not so much cultural overhead in > the first place, and it was filtered > through 2 Generations of western > teachers [Mahendranath and Lokanath/Mike Magee] > who did not want to > change my whole lifestyle before i was > allowed to approach, it was an eclectic system always, > [....] > > What can be said for shure is that the title Natha appears in all > the "tantric" traditions. > In this case i used it to mean belonging to > Nath Panth. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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