Crossing the cultur gap

[Guest guest]

Hi

 

I am new to the group. Being an incorrigible skeptic I am afraid that

all I can ever contribute here shall carry the marks of this frame of

mind. Please let me know if you find this stance inacceptable in this

group. I'll leave then respecting your opinion.

 

There seem to be some knowledgeable people here - that's why I joined.

 

Let me start with some question to the group:

 

I take it that most of you here think crossing the cultur gap between

east and west in religious (spiritual if you like) matters is really -

in an in-depths-way - possible. Ohterwise you would not be here. For

me, however, this matter is in no way resolved, notwithstanding the

growing amount of western practitioners of eastern spiritual paths. I

have been - in a certain way still am - one myself. I am convinced by

reading some of the literature and speaking to people that many -

certainly not all - of them have never examined their believes and

resemble in this regard old fashioned catholics or christians in

general whom the age of illuminations seems to have passed by completely.

 

Can the gods of the Hindu pantheon really be internalized by a

westerner in such a way that they become kind of living entities?

 

Aren't the gods and godesses in any religion fabrications of our

creative religious imagination whose iconographic seed has to be

planted in the soul at an early age by religious education to become

effective agents of divine intercession in our lives?

 

Enough for today.

 

Best

 

D

[Guest guest]

Hi,

There are around 330 million different approaches to Spirituality or

religion in India.

Some of them might be meaningful or helpful to a westerner some not,

but the same is true for an Indian.

Nonetheless I think i might have some answers because i have some

practical experience in transferring values across cultural

demarcations, if you are more precise about which of those millions

Indian approaches or practices you think cannot be incorporated into

the western way of life. maybe if i knew that i could give you an

answer.

 

I like to note in passing that most of the paths that are advertised

as "eastern spiritual paths" in the west are bogus and either

unconnected to the spiritual traditions of India or watered down to

an extent that they are not dicernible as Indian anymore and

therefore should not be considered at all in a serious approach to

your question, this is another reason i ask you to be more precise.

>I am convinced by

> reading some of the literature and speaking to people that many -

> certainly not all - of them have never examined their believes and

> resemble in this regard old fashioned catholics or christians in

> general whom the age of illuminations seems to have passed by

>completely.

 

My Question would be what kind of literature? what group of people

you are talking about?

 

 

That the Gods and Godesses are "fabrications of our creative

religious imagination" is not a part of Indian Teachings it is the

other way around : our existence is a dreamlike Imagination, the Gods

and enlightened beings, reach into a deeper Reality, thats why we

profit from association with them.

 

Dattatreya says in tripura Rahasya:

"I will tell you the secret. The cycle of births and deaths is from

time immemorial caused by ignorance which displays itself as pleasure

and pain and yet is only a dream and unreal. Being so, the wise say

that it can be ended by knowledge. By what kind of knowledge? Wisdom

born of realisation: viz., "I am That".

 

Mahahradanatha

 

 

, "Dharmavidya"

<dharmavidya> wrote:

>

> Hi

>

> I am new to the group. Being an incorrigible skeptic I am afraid

that

> all I can ever contribute here shall carry the marks of this frame

of

> mind. Please let me know if you find this stance inacceptable in

this

> group. I'll leave then respecting your opinion.

>

> There seem to be some knowledgeable people here - that's why I

joined.

>

> Let me start with some question to the group:

>

> I take it that most of you here think crossing the cultur gap

between

> east and west in religious (spiritual if you like) matters is

really -

> in an in-depths-way - possible. Ohterwise you would not be here. For

> me, however, this matter is in no way resolved, notwithstanding the

> growing amount of western practitioners of eastern spiritual paths.

I

> have been - in a certain way still am - one myself. I am convinced

by

> reading some of the literature and speaking to people that many -

> certainly not all - of them have never examined their believes and

> resemble in this regard old fashioned catholics or christians in

> general whom the age of illuminations seems to have passed by

completely.

>

> Can the gods of the Hindu pantheon really be internalized by a

> westerner in such a way that they become kind of living entities?

>

> Aren't the gods and godesses in any religion fabrications of our

> creative religious imagination whose iconographic seed has to be

> planted in the soul at an early age by religious education to become

> effective agents of divine intercession in our lives?

>

> Enough for today.

>

> Best

>

> D

>

[Guest guest]

ROFL!!

 

Is this really about the culture gap? Apparently, this addresses the

spiritual beliefs of the whole world as if the feelings and

experiences of the gifted are hallucinations of an overactive

(Schizophrenic) mind feeding up on the stories heard from the

childhood!!!

 

Trust me when I say that those experiences are not hallucinations,

even though I am not gifted in anyway. When something calls you

because it (for the brevity of addressing, I will treat it as an

inanimate object to go with your scepticism) needs

attention..........does not let you sleep after some 30 hours of

flying and 9.5 time zones later...body is tired, mind is confused,

but cannot sleep at 4 am......."Come look at me, I need attention" is

the message.

 

Nothing ingrained from childhood in that "hallucination." Srichakra

was lying on its side rather than straight up. Even though SHE must

be placed flat on the surface, SHE is benevolent enough to grant an

old woman an oversight and be placed standing up back to the wall.

 

Or putting one in touch with an white american, who has never heard

of Shaktham.....because SHE loves that person......to provide some

introduction of HER....to make that person aware of who is present

with them.

 

Scepticism, is good to arrive at logical conclusion of things. But,

there are certain systems whose logical parameters are not fully

known/understood. In those cases, the (half) known parameters will

not provide the true answers. But only a never ending debate leading

to nowhere.

 

May be an answer to your query of westerners realizing Easterns Gods

lies in dealing with previous births and the deeds done therein.

Again, no one will provide the answers/parameters unless you visit a

very gifted seer - if that seer is willing to provide you the answers.

 

 

, "Dharmavidya"

<dharmavidya> wrote:

>> Aren't the gods and godesses in any religion fabrications of our

> creative religious imagination whose iconographic seed has to be

> planted in the soul at an early age by religious education to become

> effective agents of divine intercession in our lives?

>

> Enough for today.

>

> Best

>

> D

>

[Guest guest]

, "Dharmavidya"

<dharmavidya> wrote:

>

> I take it that most of you here think crossing the cultur gap between

> east and west in religious (spiritual if you like) matters is really -

> in an in-depths-way - possible.

 

 

There exists no culture gap for those of us for whom some of the

eastern practices are natural.

 

> For me, however, this matter is in no way resolved

 

Which of the multitudes of paths have you explored? Perhaps a

different path is more natural for you.

> I am convinced by

> reading some of the literature and speaking to people that many -

> certainly not all - of them have never examined their believes and

> resemble in this regard old fashioned catholics or christians in

> general whom the age of illuminations seems to have passed by

completely.

 

Where there is a need, a path manifests. One has only to do a bit of

weeding. ;->

> Can the gods of the Hindu pantheon really be internalized by a

> westerner in such a way that they become kind of living entities?

> Aren't the gods and godesses in any religion fabrications of our

> creative religious imagination whose iconographic seed has to be

> planted in the soul at an early age by religious education to become

> effective agents of divine intercession in our lives?

 

In seeking the answers to these questions for yourself, you may wish

to read Jane Chance (Nitzsche)'s book _The Genius Figure in Antiquity

and the Middle Ages_ and decide for yourself if the Genius (a very

Western concept of living entity/deity not at all unlike the Eastern)

can be internalized. I also suggest owning a piece of land and

working in the garden to make it yours, Pater Familias. ;->

 

Here are some commentaries on the book:

 

http://www.jungcircle.com/muse/genius.html

 

Wish you well.

 

Felicia

[Guest guest]

There is not cultural gap the instant we move closer. By golly, must we be

snobs !

 

India was simply the custodian of some traditions that belong to all beings, so

let's not forget this. Even if I shroud "Indian Spirituality" in Eastern vs

Western culture; then still I must share. In the Bruce Lee story, Lee makes a

very valid point to the Chinese council that attempted to stop him teaching Kung

Fu to the 'out-sider'. Lee said something like, "Why not teach them, and allow

them to experience the richness of Chinese culture, and therefore understand us

more".

 

Either way, I am thrilled the "goras" have found the jewel of "Indian

traditions", and their sincerity which inspires me as an Indian in India is a

blessing.

 

Chill dudes ! It is all coming together - LOVE ! LOVE ! LOVE !

 

ganpra <ganpra wrote: ROFL!!

 

Is this really about the culture gap? Apparently, this addresses the

spiritual beliefs of the whole world as if the feelings and

experiences of the gifted are hallucinations of an overactive

(Schizophrenic) mind feeding up on the stories heard from the

childhood!!!

 

Trust me when I say that those experiences are not hallucinations,

even though I am not gifted in anyway. When something calls you

because it (for the brevity of addressing, I will treat it as an

inanimate object to go with your scepticism) needs

attention..........does not let you sleep after some 30 hours of

flying and 9.5 time zones later...body is tired, mind is confused,

but cannot sleep at 4 am......."Come look at me, I need attention" is

the message.

 

Nothing ingrained from childhood in that "hallucination." Srichakra

was lying on its side rather than straight up. Even though SHE must

be placed flat on the surface, SHE is benevolent enough to grant an

old woman an oversight and be placed standing up back to the wall.

 

Or putting one in touch with an white american, who has never heard

of Shaktham.....because SHE loves that person......to provide some

introduction of HER....to make that person aware of who is present

with them.

 

Scepticism, is good to arrive at logical conclusion of things. But,

there are certain systems whose logical parameters are not fully

known/understood. In those cases, the (half) known parameters will

not provide the true answers. But only a never ending debate leading

to nowhere.

 

May be an answer to your query of westerners realizing Easterns Gods

lies in dealing with previous births and the deeds done therein.

Again, no one will provide the answers/parameters unless you visit a

very gifted seer - if that seer is willing to provide you the answers.

 

 

, "Dharmavidya"

<dharmavidya> wrote:

>> Aren't the gods and godesses in any religion fabrications of our

> creative religious imagination whose iconographic seed has to be

> planted in the soul at an early age by religious education to become

> effective agents of divine intercession in our lives?

>

> Enough for today.

>

> Best

>

> D

[Guest guest]

Well said Felicia. We find a path and walk it, seek help from our friends like

we do in Shakti Sadhana. No effort is ever wasted.

[Guest guest]

Hi

 

to answer your questions so that maybe you can answer mine:

>if you are more precise about which of those millions

> Indian approaches or practices you think cannot be incorporated into

> the western way of life. maybe if i knew that i could give you an

> answer.<

 

Two aproaches mainly: First: The guru-paths (especially

Shaktipat-Gurus which means tantric gurus.) This may belong to the

catagory "bogus" that you mentioned. Please note: I am not doubting

the value of having a sadguru in your life. Big grace! I do doubt

however that any of the many known to a western public can claim that

sublime role.

Second: The devotional paths where the goddesses and gods of the Hindu

pantheon play the central role. If you read my original post qou will

see that that is my main concern in my critic of the possibility of

cultural transfer.

 

 

What literature am I talking about? In one sense I would say about

the main corpus of the popular - non-indological - "spiritual" literatur.

In another perspective I would say that after trying to study some

scriptures of Trika (Kashmir Shaivism) which for me exemplifies indian

thought and spiritual practice on the highest level and realizing that

without an absolutely competent guru one shall never ever grasp the

secret of that way - and this is only one example of indian spiritual

ways that are difficult if not impossible to tread without a guru -

and that those gurus are just not available in the west - then I would

maintain that many people have not really examined what they are

actually doing practising an indian sadhana with ore without a guru,

probably bogus.

 

What group of people am I talking about? Well - I used to bee a

follower, if only in a marginal yet long lasting way - of a "bogus"

tantric guru. And I have been talking and interacting with other

devotees(shishyas) of that guru. This is now 5 years ago.

And after waking up to the guru dream-factory and money making machine

I realized just how blind those followers (me included) were and still

are. No in depths knowledge, a very contorted image of what a guru is

in their mind, very different from how indian people approach gurus.

But even without being a guru junkie I have met people who do

everything Hindu like, they chant, they meditate, they do swadhyaya,

thay do puja - you name it - and as soon as the going gets rough in

life all those great "spiritual" ways don't mean a thing any more. No

depth, not anchored.

 

Well, I am sure there are other people for whom the above doesn't

apply. That's just my experience.

 

You say you have some experience as a cultur translator. In what way,

if I may ask? I am really interested cause that's a central point of

interest in my life.

 

Thanks for answering

 

D

[Guest guest]

Hi

 

Though I don't get your ROFL - nevertheless being glad to have been

able to make somebody laugh:) - here a short reply.

 

I am NOT talking about hallucinations but imagination which is quite a

different phenomenon.

 

You say that those experiences (which ones?) are no hallucinations

even though you are not gifted. So how do you know?

You know I have been with people who had incredible experiences and

didn't change a bit in their unethical behaviour. So what's the use?

 

What you write about Shri Chakra on its side and Shaktham I don't

understand.

 

In what you say about scepticism I think you are quite right. Being a

sceptic is really a predicament not be envied.

 

And I agree that karmic roots may be the answer to the undeniable fact

that some people really do have an access to the spiritual ways of

another culture. Still I doubt that this is true for the majority of

practitioners of indian spiritual ways.

 

Best

 

D

 

 

, "ganpra" <ganpra@r...> wrote:

>

> ROFL!!

>

> Is this really about the culture gap? Apparently, this addresses the

> spiritual beliefs of the whole world as if the feelings and

> experiences of the gifted are hallucinations of an overactive

> (Schizophrenic) mind feeding up on the stories heard from the

> childhood!!!

>

> Trust me when I say that those experiences are not hallucinations,

> even though I am not gifted in anyway. When something calls you

> because it (for the brevity of addressing, I will treat it as an

> inanimate object to go with your scepticism) needs

> attention..........does not let you sleep after some 30 hours of

> flying and 9.5 time zones later...body is tired, mind is confused,

> but cannot sleep at 4 am......."Come look at me, I need attention" is

> the message.

>

> Nothing ingrained from childhood in that "hallucination." Srichakra

> was lying on its side rather than straight up. Even though SHE must

> be placed flat on the surface, SHE is benevolent enough to grant an

> old woman an oversight and be placed standing up back to the wall.

>

> Or putting one in touch with an white american, who has never heard

> of Shaktham.....because SHE loves that person......to provide some

> introduction of HER....to make that person aware of who is present

> with them.

>

> Scepticism, is good to arrive at logical conclusion of things. But,

> there are certain systems whose logical parameters are not fully

> known/understood. In those cases, the (half) known parameters will

> not provide the true answers. But only a never ending debate leading

> to nowhere.

>

> May be an answer to your query of westerners realizing Easterns Gods

> lies in dealing with previous births and the deeds done therein.

> Again, no one will provide the answers/parameters unless you visit a

> very gifted seer - if that seer is willing to provide you the answers.

>

>

> , "Dharmavidya"

> <dharmavidya> wrote:

>

> >> Aren't the gods and godesses in any religion fabrications of our

> > creative religious imagination whose iconographic seed has to be

> > planted in the soul at an early age by religious education to become

> > effective agents of divine intercession in our lives?

> >

> > Enough for today.

> >

> > Best

> >

> > D

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Salve Felicia

 

Pater Familias - me????? Thanks for giving me a big smile!

 

> There exists no culture gap for those of us for whom some of the

> eastern practices are natural.<

 

That's exactly my point: I doubt this naturalness, at least for a lot

of practitioners of indian spiritual paths. But can I look inside

people? Since I can't my doubt shall probably stay with me.

 

Yes, where is a need there is a way. You are quite right here.

Conclusion: my need (mumukshutva)is not strong enough. That's what I

have to live with. Quite some predicament, isn't.

 

Thanks for the book-link.

 

Best to you

 

D

[Guest guest]

My dear Friend Dharmavidya,

 

I know I cannot grasp the anguish you feel at feeling cheated by bogus gurus,

however I can see some sparks of your anger that has resulted from this.

 

You will I am sure, be aware of the saying "when the Student is ready, the

Teacher WILL appear". You would also undoubtedly know that "Every thing is

Perfect" and that we draw to us that which we need most.

 

When I consider these, the question of culture and bogus gurus ceases to exist.

What remains and was always present is the attraction of the sadak towards the

divine.

 

The one thing we should never ever do on the path, is ridicule the paths of

others. Each being has its station and unity with divinity, which I may not be

perceptive enough to perceive. I recall my own stupid mocking and

misunderstanding of the ISKON, untill I actually went to the temple, met some

lovely people and figured something of the universitility of the Almighty.

 

It is therefore also possible that similarly I am unable to see as you see at

this moment. I can only share wit you my thoughts and experiences and hope they

will help us as we find ur way.

 

With love,

 

Red

 

Dharmavidya <dharmavidya wrote: Hi

 

to answer your questions so that maybe you can answer mine:

>if you are more precise about which of those millions

> Indian approaches or practices you think cannot be incorporated into

> the western way of life. maybe if i knew that i could give you an

> answer.<

 

Two aproaches mainly: First: The guru-paths (especially

Shaktipat-Gurus which means tantric gurus.) This may belong to the

catagory "bogus" that you mentioned. Please note: I am not doubting

the value of having a sadguru in your life. Big grace! I do doubt

however that any of the many known to a western public can claim that

sublime role.

Second: The devotional paths where the goddesses and gods of the Hindu

pantheon play the central role. If you read my original post qou will

see that that is my main concern in my critic of the possibility of

cultural transfer.

 

 

What literature am I talking about? In one sense I would say about

the main corpus of the popular - non-indological - "spiritual" literatur.

In another perspective I would say that after trying to study some

scriptures of Trika (Kashmir Shaivism) which for me exemplifies indian

thought and spiritual practice on the highest level and realizing that

without an absolutely competent guru one shall never ever grasp the

secret of that way - and this is only one example of indian spiritual

ways that are difficult if not impossible to tread without a guru -

and that those gurus are just not available in the west - then I would

maintain that many people have not really examined what they are

actually doing practising an indian sadhana with ore without a guru,

probably bogus.

 

What group of people am I talking about? Well - I used to bee a

follower, if only in a marginal yet long lasting way - of a "bogus"

tantric guru. And I have been talking and interacting with other

devotees(shishyas) of that guru. This is now 5 years ago.

And after waking up to the guru dream-factory and money making machine

I realized just how blind those followers (me included) were and still

are. No in depths knowledge, a very contorted image of what a guru is

in their mind, very different from how indian people approach gurus.

But even without being a guru junkie I have met people who do

everything Hindu like, they chant, they meditate, they do swadhyaya,

thay do puja - you name it - and as soon as the going gets rough in

life all those great "spiritual" ways don't mean a thing any more. No

depth, not anchored.

 

Well, I am sure there are other people for whom the above doesn't

apply. That's just my experience.

 

You say you have some experience as a cultur translator. In what way,

if I may ask? I am really interested cause that's a central point of

interest in my life.

 

Thanks for answering

 

D

 

 

 

 

 

 

Devi

Traditions Divine

 

 

 

 

Visit your group "" on the web.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What are the most popular cars? Find out at Autos

 

 

[Guest guest]

My dear Friend D !

 

Each seed has its own cycle, so if one does not see immediate change, you can be

sure germination is in process.

 

If you have doubts about the majority of non Indian practioners of Indian

spirituality, well it's your burden and it hurts you ! You think you have a

point and are agitated to make it ! Have you asked yourself why and to what

purpose ? And is there a point at all ?

 

Undoubtedly one comes across many instances that appeal or do not appeal along

the path. The fact you encountered them means you had those lessons to learn,

and good they happened. A few dollars here or there, so what ! We come naked

and go naked. Let go of your pain, my friend.

 

Love,

 

Vir

 

 

 

Dharmavidya <dharmavidya wrote: Hi

 

Though I don't get your ROFL - nevertheless being glad to have been

able to make somebody laugh:) - here a short reply.

 

I am NOT talking about hallucinations but imagination which is quite a

different phenomenon.

 

You say that those experiences (which ones?) are no hallucinations

even though you are not gifted. So how do you know?

You know I have been with people who had incredible experiences and

didn't change a bit in their unethical behaviour. So what's the use?

 

What you write about Shri Chakra on its side and Shaktham I don't

understand.

 

In what you say about scepticism I think you are quite right. Being a

sceptic is really a predicament not be envied.

 

And I agree that karmic roots may be the answer to the undeniable fact

that some people really do have an access to the spiritual ways of

another culture. Still I doubt that this is true for the majority of

practitioners of indian spiritual ways.

 

Best

 

D

 

 

, "ganpra" <ganpra@r...> wrote:

>

> ROFL!!

>

> Is this really about the culture gap? Apparently, this addresses the

> spiritual beliefs of the whole world as if the feelings and

> experiences of the gifted are hallucinations of an overactive

> (Schizophrenic) mind feeding up on the stories heard from the

> childhood!!!

>

> Trust me when I say that those experiences are not hallucinations,

> even though I am not gifted in anyway. When something calls you

> because it (for the brevity of addressing, I will treat it as an

> inanimate object to go with your scepticism) needs

> attention..........does not let you sleep after some 30 hours of

> flying and 9.5 time zones later...body is tired, mind is confused,

> but cannot sleep at 4 am......."Come look at me, I need attention" is

> the message.

>

> Nothing ingrained from childhood in that "hallucination." Srichakra

> was lying on its side rather than straight up. Even though SHE must

> be placed flat on the surface, SHE is benevolent enough to grant an

> old woman an oversight and be placed standing up back to the wall.

>

> Or putting one in touch with an white american, who has never heard

> of Shaktham.....because SHE loves that person......to provide some

> introduction of HER....to make that person aware of who is present

> with them.

>

> Scepticism, is good to arrive at logical conclusion of things. But,

> there are certain systems whose logical parameters are not fully

> known/understood. In those cases, the (half) known parameters will

> not provide the true answers. But only a never ending debate leading

> to nowhere.

>

> May be an answer to your query of westerners realizing Easterns Gods

> lies in dealing with previous births and the deeds done therein.

> Again, no one will provide the answers/parameters unless you visit a

> very gifted seer - if that seer is willing to provide you the answers.

>

>

> , "Dharmavidya"

> <dharmavidya> wrote:

>

> >> Aren't the gods and godesses in any religion fabrications of our

> > creative religious imagination whose iconographic seed has to be

> > planted in the soul at an early age by religious education to become

> > effective agents of divine intercession in our lives?

> >

> > Enough for today.

> >

> > Best

> >

> > D

> >

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Visit your group "" on the web.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What are the most popular cars? Find out at Autos