Guest guest Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 Below are some of an endless list of beliefs which I wish to place under scrutiny. 1. Blessing by saints (which I cant disclose) removes all negative karmic effects. 2. M.G.R (an deceased Indian actor) can be worshipped as god. 3. Death during Shiva ratri ensures a place in shiva's realm. 4. Death during vaikunda agathasi ensures a place in vishnu's realm 5. On remembering 108 places where shakti's body parts fell will lead to liberation. 6. Bathing in Ganges river removes sins. 7. There is no reincarnation for Muslims and Christians. The list can goes on and on. In this list I feel that a strong sense of belief is instilled in people. Its so strong that causes the impossible to happen. It directs one to do a given action or to have a given mind frame that leads to a desired outcome. I see this as a placebo effect. The mind is manipulated to create this positive outcome under normal circumstances will makes it impossible to happen I wish to seek the opinion of members if my hypothesis is correct. If my hypothesis is correct then I wish to pose another question. Can we create our own placebo effect? For example, If one has absolute belief that doing jaba only 108 times of a given mantra in the morning will lead him or her to liberation, then can his or her personal belief really lead him or her to liberation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 *** I feel that a strong sense of belief is instilled in people. Its so strong that causes the impossible to happen. *** YES! *** It directs one to do a given action or to have a given mind frame that leads to a desired outcome. *** YES! *** I see this as a placebo effect. *** NO! A good definition says: "The placebo effect is defined as the psychological and/or physiological changes that result from the administration of a physiologically inert treatment, or the inert part of a physiologically active treatment; its efficacy relying on the attitudes (cognitive, affective and behavioural) of the person involved to both their condition and the treatment [...]" But I believe that mantras and the other techniques of Srividya upasana are not "physiologically inert" techniques. I believe these tools have have profound psysiological as well as psychological effects. The attitudes (belief, etc) of the upasaka are important as they affect the efficiency of the tools (you know the saying that even the greatest craftsman cannot fully realize his potential without great tools). *** The mind is manipulated to create this positive outcome under normal circumstances will makes it impossible to happen. *** YES. But think about why this is so. What if the mind is really all there is? What if that were the essence of Realization? If that were so, the Realized would be able to manipulate Reality if they so chose, as there is ultimately but one mind. And the rest of us? If we were wise, we would follow their advices, and BELIEVE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 > For example, If one has > absolute belief that doing jaba only 108 times of a given mantra in > the morning will lead him or her to liberation, then can his or her > personal belief really lead him or her to liberation? > You cannot get liberation by beliefing some idea, no matter how hard you try. It is said in the siva sutras: She (Matrka i.e letters,words) brings about knowledge in a limited form e.g "i am imperfect", I am thin or fatI am a performer of agnistoma sacrifice" Such knowledge is subtle or in a concretly expressed form, and by the penetration of different communicative words in the minds of the listener brings about a feeling of sorrow pride joy and passion. and: Because that (Matrika) is the Basis of all (limited) Knowledge therefore one is deprived of the investigation of the inner nondifference (from the fullest i-consciousnes of siva) and all ones knowledge is outwardly turnend without ceasing for one moment. Therefore ist is rightly maintained that all such knowledge is the cause of bondage. Mahahradanatha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 , "mahahradanatha" <mahahradanatha wrote: > > > For example, If one has > > absolute belief that doing jaba only 108 times of a given mantra in the morning will lead him or her to liberation, then can his or her personal belief really lead him or her to liberation? > > > You cannot get liberation by beliefing some idea, no matter how hard you try. > > It is said in the siva sutras: > She (Matrka i.e letters,words) brings about knowledge in a limited > form e.g "i am imperfect", I am thin or fatI am a performer of > agnistoma sacrifice" Such knowledge is subtle or in a concretly > expressed form, and by the penetration of different communicative > words in the minds of the listener brings about a feeling of sorrow > pride joy and passion. > > and: > Because that (Matrika) is the Basis of all (limited) Knowledge > therefore one is deprived of the investigation of the inner > nondifference (from the fullest i-consciousnes of siva) and all ones > knowledge is outwardly turnend without ceasing for one moment. > Therefore ist is rightly maintained that all such knowledge is the > cause of bondage. > > > Mahahradanatha > So my question will be : What is Liberation? Who have the authority to say : He or She is liberated? Tulasi question reminds me of something : Abt Ammachi. Many years ago, in one of Ammachi's visit to Singapore. I never knew who she is then. Never heard about her. Was walking along Serangoon Road with my husband, and saw a small congregation of people in a temple near by. So I told my husband, come let go and take a look. We saw this Lady in White surrounded by groups of people mostly all in white too. Some singing, smiling looking at her without a blink. I saw people lining up. So I told my husband, lets join the Q. Never mind what's the Q for, just join. Saw people trying to seek her blessings, so I said, no harm. Dosent matter we dont know who she is. She must be a great soul. That is why people are here to meet her. No harm in getting blessing from unknown greal soul, I said. And we did get our blessings. She gave me a hug and smile at my husband. NO hug for him for he's not into hugging. Its not our Asian way of doing things, Im being told later especially in getting blessings. How do I feel? Nothing. I felt nothing. Just a normal hug, ive recevied from many mothers ive meet along the way. I had a discussion with other Ammachi devotees sometime back. And how I am being persistently persuaded : you must get her hug. Only they you can feel the divine energy. So my question is : if I do not get the hug, im deprived? If its a divine energy transmitted, must it be physical. Im told later that perhaps at that particular moment in time, Im not in tune as yet into this Sprituality. I started my spiritual journey at the age of 16. So maybe i am not mature enough to receive Ammachi's divine energy then. But now I am initiate with a proper guru, I should feel something. I would be able to feel it. I question this notion. I sat there once during Ammachi's last visit, just observing her from afar admist all those crowds and still I feel nothing. So if I get a hug from her, I would? Now if im to take for eg 30 people. These 30 people know nothing abt Ammachi. Never seen her nor heard about her. Put them in an environment. Not in Ammachi's ashram of course. But a different place. Allow all of them to be hug by Ammachi. And record their experience. Then divide the same group into half. Take the 15 people and tell them about ammachi. Show them the pics of her and all the good things she have done. Her teachings etc. Let them be hug again by Ammachi. What do you think the findings will be? Some may say : how dare you to even suggest such a thing? Are you doubting Ammachi? No I am not. But I have a curious mind. Im being told, its this independent thinking that makes a good kuala. Im not sure I am one or a good one, I have a curious mind. That is all. Some may say too : how dare you? She is our guru, are you trying to test our guru. No I am not either. My main focus is not Ammachi, but the 50 people. My hypothesis is this: When the mind is close, do not have the knowledge, the mind will not feel or have the experience. But then again, this is risky. How do you draw a line between what is real and the placebo effect? I had a heated discussion with devi bhakta about this placebo effect. Do you consider Mantra too a pleacebo effect? Im told, in order for a mantra to be effective and potent, you must recite it properly with devotion and understanding. But the basic thing is that you must have the believe of the potency of the mantra. Isnt this what we call the power of belief? I'm being told : people will get angry for bring this issue up. My answer: Let them be angry. Anger is good. If you channel it properly, it will propels one to higer level, like the fuel that propels the rocket up into space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 Hi Nora: I'd toss in some comments on these topics, sice -- as you mentioned -- we had a good discussion on them the other day. You wrote: *** Abt Ammachi. Many years ago, in one of Ammachi's visit to Singapore. I never knew who she is then. Never heard about her. [After getting the famous Ammachi Hug ...] How do I feel? Nothing. I felt nothing. Just a normal hug, ive recevied from many mothers ive meet along the way. *** This is not really surprising, for several reasons: (1) It *is* a normal hug. Ammachi, whatever else she may be, is a flesh-and-blood human being. (2) Ammachi (as you state below) is not the point; YOU are. Like a guru giving diksha, she is performing a physical act, the effect of which depends partially on the receiver's belief, yes; but also on his/her knowledge, preparedness, commitment to the path and disciplined practice. It is like a seed that will sit there dormant for months, years, lifetimes even -- until the receiver is ready to seriously begin cultivating it. Only then will it blossom. Here's an odd thing: One of the best teachers I've read, in explaining the power of the guru's seed, is one Jesus of Nazareth, in a passage rarely dicussed (or rarely understood?) in the religious systems actually bearing his name: "Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no depth of root. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain. Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, multiplying thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times." Then Jesus added, "Those who have ears to hear, let them hear." So: Do we hear? Each teacher, each guru, offers something that a certain group of people needs -- depending on their time, place, culture and personal inclinations. Ammachi's hug might change the world for one who really needs that communication at that moment. For others -- perhaps not yet sensitive enough to receive her message; perhaps already evolved beyond it; perhaps intended for another guru - - it's just a nice hug. But if you should ever need her "seed" it will be there. Now, another brief quote, this one spoken by Sri Amritananda Natha Saraswati of Devipuram in 2003 -- a parable using a personal computer rather than a farmer's sowing to make its point. I have quoted the passage here before, but please read it again, comparing it to the Jesus teaching above: "When I switch on a computer, the monitor and the programs come alive. I interact with it and work on new programs. The computer and the power switch are the way to my experience of the programs (or whatever). The guru is like that, too. It is just an enabling device. Without it there is no experience of program. With it, it is not guaranteed. However, the conditions are (1) having the computer, electricity and programs, and (2) your willingness to sit in front of it and work. Given these two, results are still not guaranteed, but the conditions have been met for them to occur. Finally, you are the architect of your own realization." *** Some may say : how dare you to even suggest such a thing? Are you doubting Ammachi? No I am not. But I have a curious mind. Im being told, its this independent thinking that makes a good kuala. Im not sure I am one or a good one, I have a curious mind. That is all. *** In his book, "The Path to Enlightenment," the current Dalai Lama XIV discusses precisely this issue. In order to progress, you must have faith or belief in your guru. But you also must maintain a lively skepticism and spirit of inquiry -- blind faith and intellectual laziness are definitely not encouraged. A lot of what the Dalai Lama says, though the terminology and context are of course slightly different, applies beautifully to what we are taught in Srividya. The Dalai Lama speaks, for instace, of the spiritual advantages to be gained in considering your guru to be Divine, to be worshiped. But at the same time he notes that any thinking person should also be aware of their guru's non-divine side, his or her human failings. Most of these failings should be ignored or brushed aside, to avoid the kind of doubt and negative thinking that pollutes the belief and faith that makes a guru-shishya relationship "work." Again however, he stresses, that's not a license to *totally* ignore the discordant notes that might gradually build to warn you that a guru is not genuine -- or at least not right for you. Even so, one shouldn't be fickle, and hop from guru to guru, "shopping" for one who suits your current whims, rather than staying with one who will help you develop. In other words, from start to finish it's a razor's edge, a balancing act between faith/belief and inquiry/skepticism. All of these things are needed. *** I had a heated discussion with devi bhakta about this placebo effect. Do you consider Mantra too a placebo effect? *** I thought our conversation was really pleasant, not heated! :-) But I think the same analysis applies. A mantra is definitely not a placebo. Anyway who's ever worked seriously with mantras will not debate it; there are distinct physical, psychological, vibratory effects. But as with a guru, in addition to these real effects there are other factors that will determine how efficient the mantra is. Good pronunciation, as you say; understanding of meaning; the real openness and receptivity that's cultivated by bhakti. Those will determine how good your reception is, but the inherent power of the mantra itself is the same regardless of your ability to access it. It is like the "seed" of diksha -- constant and eternal, just waiting for you to realize it. aim mAtangyai namaH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 I will just deal with one issue. "6. Bathing in Ganges river removes sins." There is the story of Paakkanar who was servant to a great brahmin. The brahmin went to have bath in the ganges and Pakkanar, as servant, followed. He took along a "churakka" a naturally very sour fruit with him and in all theerthas where the brahmin had bath he also bathed the churakka. When they came back, pakkanar made a curry with the churakka. It was uneatable because of its sourness. The brahmin was angry and said what have u done. Pakkanar answered that whereever u bathed I also bathed the churakka. so I thought it will become sweet. If it is not sweet your sins are also not washed away. The Moral, mere rituals without firm belief are useless. There are many other folklore stories emphasising this. Tulasi <thundergod999 wrote: Below are some of an endless list of beliefs which I wish to place under scrutiny. 1. Blessing by saints (which I cant disclose) removes all negative karmic effects. 2. M.G.R (an deceased Indian actor) can be worshipped as god. 3. Death during Shiva ratri ensures a place in shiva's realm. 4. Death during vaikunda agathasi ensures a place in vishnu's realm 5. On remembering 108 places where shakti's body parts fell will lead to liberation. 6. Bathing in Ganges river removes sins. 7. There is no reincarnation for Muslims and Christians. The list can goes on and on. In this list I feel that a strong sense of belief is instilled in people. Its so strong that causes the impossible to happen. It directs one to do a given action or to have a given mind frame that leads to a desired outcome. I see this as a placebo effect. The mind is manipulated to create this positive outcome under normal circumstances will makes it impossible to happen I wish to seek the opinion of members if my hypothesis is correct. If my hypothesis is correct then I wish to pose another question. Can we create our own placebo effect? For example, If one has absolute belief that doing jaba only 108 times of a given mantra in the morning will lead him or her to liberation, then can his or her personal belief really lead him or her to liberation? Devi Traditions Divine Visit your group "" on the web. Brings words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 There are many different ideas about what moksha is, some say it is realising your identity with Shiva and the identity of the Universe with Shakti and unite both. In my opinion it is not so much about "becoming" Shiva, that would imply that there is a "you" and there is a "Shiva" and that one should try to become something different (Shiva) from what one already is, this is a misunderstanding that can leads us to pretending that we are something we are not, either someone better or someone lesser, than others, it easily leads to self conceit and hypocrisy and will cause us and others to suffer and instead of leading us to knowledge and bliss it may removes us farther away from realisation of our true self and happiness. Moksha is about realising what we really are, this is like entering into our natural (childlike) state. It is Self Awareness or Self Knowledge. That self awareness implies realising that our natural state is being none other than Shiva and Shakti in Union. Sadhana is not like being in a school , or at work or in society where maybe some of us are forced to play some artifical role which in the long run may alienate him or her from understanding his or her own essence - Through Sadhana we should awake to our true natur not just practice another roleplay based on some random idea or set of beliefs. Belief in itself alone is not prosperous it is important what you belief. Devotion in itself alone is not good or prosperous it is important what you are devoted to. A Soldier devoted to some evil Warlord promising him that he will go to heaven when he dies and be the favorite of his god will certainly not be awarded after his death, no matter how hard he belives. I have been taught that there needs to be a Harmony between all the major elements or "Brains" or "Souls" in our Self, these are discrimination, emotion, and action and are concentrated in different Places in our body and correspond to the 3 different states a human being is experiencing as well as to three temperaments where different sadhanas are applied according to a preponderance of one element over the other. (pashu vira divya) Establish harmony and co working of these 3 Faculities is a great step in our Sadhana that can cause us to become awake and aware. These 3 Principles correspond to the triple shaktis Jnana Iccha and Kriya. Combining their action will means that also Devotion and Belief should combine in an appropriate way, choosing the object of Devotion with Discernment, to further our Sadhana .Sadhana then becomes an expression of our intent with discernmentchoosen, aplied with devotion and belief and combinend with the appropriate outer action only then results in accordance with the intent can manifest. Only when these 3 Shaktis are present and combine harmonously the 4th (moksha-awake awareness) can appear by itself. I choose the words "can appear" because it is always an act of anugraha that moksha manifests, we can only combine the proper elements and relax and wait for Moksha to appear in spontaneous way (sahaja) I don´t know if these ideas fully apply to srividya upasana since i am unshure of the gradual path a srividya upasaka takes. If you or someone else would be so kind to provide me with the information i am maybe able to respond with a more appropriate and meaningful answer. Within our Tradition we begin applying the shaktis of the very core triangle (Iccha Jnana Kriya) in the beginning and go on continously, usinf different methods to clear impurities. I am not able to comment on the actual experiences you had with Amma, because i was neither interested to get blessings nor was i ever interested to know if somebody else is enlightened or not. I met some people who had overall a tremendous impact on my life. Some because of their interesting teachings and ideas, someones presence hit me like a streak of lightening , and some other helped my by a constant guidance and influence over longer periods. Curiously i was never in a position to ask myself whether these persons where enlightened or not. You ask me about the placebo effect. I dont believe in the placebo effect at all. A placebo is a pill which is supposedly an inert substance that is given to a sick person in a medicinal test and it has been found out that these people heal quicker than those who do not get a pill at all. This theory supposes that this is an inert substance. That is the problem, i do notbelive that this is an inert substance, it is empowered by the mental and emotional dispostion of the person taking it, any substance can be empowered to work miracles if it is imbued with Prana. This is not belief,i belive but an objective force i have seen pranapratishta rites where everybody present suddenly saw the glow emitted by the yantra as if someone turned the lights on in a dark room. A Statue of a deity or a yantra is an inert substance too in the beginning, but after being imbued with Prana it can work miracles. Same is with the mantra or Pill it must be imbued with Power than it can work miracles. Undertsand in that way a mantra is pretty inert at first also (even if imbued with power by having been received the correct way etc) it needs some preparation before it gives result, and yes it is possible to create your own mantras out of the heap of letters that is called matrika shakti, one is in fact doing this constantly. That traditional mantras may be more powerful is another question. Mahahradanatha , "NMadasamy" <nmadasamy wrote: > > , "mahahradanatha" > <mahahradanatha@> wrote: > > > > > For example, If one has > > > absolute belief that doing jaba only 108 times of a given mantra > in the morning will lead him or her to liberation, then can his or > her personal belief really lead him or her to liberation? > > > > > > You cannot get liberation by beliefing some idea, no matter how hard > you try. > > > > It is said in the siva sutras: > > She (Matrka i.e letters,words) brings about knowledge in a limited > > form e.g "i am imperfect", I am thin or fatI am a performer of > > agnistoma sacrifice" Such knowledge is subtle or in a concretly > > expressed form, and by the penetration of different communicative > > words in the minds of the listener brings about a feeling of > sorrow > > pride joy and passion. > > > > and: > > Because that (Matrika) is the Basis of all (limited) Knowledge > > therefore one is deprived of the investigation of the inner > > nondifference (from the fullest i-consciousnes of siva) and all > ones > > knowledge is outwardly turnend without ceasing for one moment. > > Therefore ist is rightly maintained that all such knowledge is the > > cause of bondage. > > > > > > Mahahradanatha > > > > > So my question will be : What is Liberation? Who have the authority > to say : He or She is liberated? > > Tulasi question reminds me of something : Abt Ammachi. Many years > ago, in one of Ammachi's visit to Singapore. I never knew who she is > then. Never heard about her. Was walking along Serangoon Road with > my husband, and saw a small congregation of people in a temple near > by. So I told my husband, come let go and take a look. We saw this > Lady in White surrounded by groups of people mostly all in white > too. Some singing, smiling looking at her without a blink. I saw > people lining up. So I told my husband, lets join the Q. Never mind > what's the Q for, just join. Saw people trying to seek her > blessings, so I said, no harm. Dosent matter we dont know who she > is. She must be a great soul. That is why people are here to meet > her. No harm in getting blessing from unknown greal soul, I said. > > And we did get our blessings. She gave me a hug and smile at my > husband. NO hug for him for he's not into hugging. Its not our Asian > way of doing things, Im being told later especially in getting > blessings. > > How do I feel? Nothing. I felt nothing. Just a normal hug, ive > recevied from many mothers ive meet along the way. I had a > discussion with other Ammachi devotees sometime back. And how I am > being persistently persuaded : you must get her hug. Only they you > can feel the divine energy. So my question is : if I do not get the > hug, im deprived? If its a divine energy transmitted, must it be > physical. Im told later that perhaps at that particular moment in > time, Im not in tune as yet into this Sprituality. I started my > spiritual journey at the age of 16. So maybe i am not mature enough > to receive Ammachi's divine energy then. But now I am initiate with > a proper guru, I should feel something. I would be able to feel it. > I question this notion. I sat there once during Ammachi's last > visit, just observing her from afar admist all those crowds and > still I feel nothing. So if I get a hug from her, I would? > > Now if im to take for eg 30 people. These 30 people know nothing abt > Ammachi. Never seen her nor heard about her. Put them in an > environment. Not in Ammachi's ashram of course. But a different > place. Allow all of them to be hug by Ammachi. And record their > experience. Then divide the same group into half. Take the 15 people > and tell them about ammachi. Show them the pics of her and all the > good things she have done. Her teachings etc. Let them be hug again > by Ammachi. What do you think the findings will be? > > Some may say : how dare you to even suggest such a thing? Are you > doubting Ammachi? No I am not. But I have a curious mind. Im being > told, its this independent thinking that makes a good kuala. Im not > sure I am one or a good one, I have a curious mind. That is all. > Some may say too : how dare you? She is our guru, are you trying to > test our guru. No I am not either. My main focus is not Ammachi, but > the 50 people. > > My hypothesis is this: When the mind is close, do not have the > knowledge, the mind will not feel or have the experience. But then > again, this is risky. How do you draw a line between what is real > and the placebo effect? > > I had a heated discussion with devi bhakta about this placebo > effect. Do you consider Mantra too a pleacebo effect? > > Im told, in order for a mantra to be effective and potent, you must > recite it properly with devotion and understanding. But the basic > thing is that you must have the believe of the potency of the > mantra. Isnt this what we call the power of belief? > > I'm being told : people will get angry for bring this issue up. My > answer: Let them be angry. Anger is good. If you channel it > properly, it will propels one to higer level, like the fuel that > propels the rocket up into space. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 its this independent thinking that makes a good kuala. ==> U seem indeed a good and adept kaula. NMadasamy <nmadasamy wrote: --- In , "mahahradanatha" <mahahradanatha wrote: > > > For example, If one has > > absolute belief that doing jaba only 108 times of a given mantra in the morning will lead him or her to liberation, then can his or her personal belief really lead him or her to liberation? > > > You cannot get liberation by beliefing some idea, no matter how hard you try. > > It is said in the siva sutras: > She (Matrka i.e letters,words) brings about knowledge in a limited > form e.g "i am imperfect", I am thin or fatI am a performer of > agnistoma sacrifice" Such knowledge is subtle or in a concretly > expressed form, and by the penetration of different communicative > words in the minds of the listener brings about a feeling of sorrow > pride joy and passion. > > and: > Because that (Matrika) is the Basis of all (limited) Knowledge > therefore one is deprived of the investigation of the inner > nondifference (from the fullest i-consciousnes of siva) and all ones > knowledge is outwardly turnend without ceasing for one moment. > Therefore ist is rightly maintained that all such knowledge is the > cause of bondage. > > > Mahahradanatha > So my question will be : What is Liberation? Who have the authority to say : He or She is liberated? Tulasi question reminds me of something : Abt Ammachi. Many years ago, in one of Ammachi's visit to Singapore. I never knew who she is then. Never heard about her. Was walking along Serangoon Road with my husband, and saw a small congregation of people in a temple near by. So I told my husband, come let go and take a look. We saw this Lady in White surrounded by groups of people mostly all in white too. Some singing, smiling looking at her without a blink. I saw people lining up. So I told my husband, lets join the Q. Never mind what's the Q for, just join. Saw people trying to seek her blessings, so I said, no harm. Dosent matter we dont know who she is. She must be a great soul. That is why people are here to meet her. No harm in getting blessing from unknown greal soul, I said. And we did get our blessings. She gave me a hug and smile at my husband. NO hug for him for he's not into hugging. Its not our Asian way of doing things, Im being told later especially in getting blessings. How do I feel? Nothing. I felt nothing. Just a normal hug, ive recevied from many mothers ive meet along the way. I had a discussion with other Ammachi devotees sometime back. And how I am being persistently persuaded : you must get her hug. Only they you can feel the divine energy. So my question is : if I do not get the hug, im deprived? If its a divine energy transmitted, must it be physical. Im told later that perhaps at that particular moment in time, Im not in tune as yet into this Sprituality. I started my spiritual journey at the age of 16. So maybe i am not mature enough to receive Ammachi's divine energy then. But now I am initiate with a proper guru, I should feel something. I would be able to feel it. I question this notion. I sat there once during Ammachi's last visit, just observing her from afar admist all those crowds and still I feel nothing. So if I get a hug from her, I would? Now if im to take for eg 30 people. These 30 people know nothing abt Ammachi. Never seen her nor heard about her. Put them in an environment. Not in Ammachi's ashram of course. But a different place. Allow all of them to be hug by Ammachi. And record their experience. Then divide the same group into half. Take the 15 people and tell them about ammachi. Show them the pics of her and all the good things she have done. Her teachings etc. Let them be hug again by Ammachi. What do you think the findings will be? Some may say : how dare you to even suggest such a thing? Are you doubting Ammachi? No I am not. But I have a curious mind. Im being told, its this independent thinking that makes a good kuala. Im not sure I am one or a good one, I have a curious mind. That is all. Some may say too : how dare you? She is our guru, are you trying to test our guru. No I am not either. My main focus is not Ammachi, but the 50 people. My hypothesis is this: When the mind is close, do not have the knowledge, the mind will not feel or have the experience. But then again, this is risky. How do you draw a line between what is real and the placebo effect? I had a heated discussion with devi bhakta about this placebo effect. Do you consider Mantra too a pleacebo effect? Im told, in order for a mantra to be effective and potent, you must recite it properly with devotion and understanding. But the basic thing is that you must have the believe of the potency of the mantra. Isnt this what we call the power of belief? I'm being told : people will get angry for bring this issue up. My answer: Let them be angry. Anger is good. If you channel it properly, it will propels one to higer level, like the fuel that propels the rocket up into space. Devi Traditions Divine Visit your group "" on the web. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 Dear Devi Bhakta I may be late in responding to this interesting topic.However It has struck me to point out that your analogy of seed and computer is definitely interesting for the aspirant. The conditions to be an architect of your own realisation is also a thought. This thought can only grow according to ones passion. This passion is based most definitely on your removing all other thoughts to the point of putting on blinkers.This state is when the maya is removed and grace could decend for a steady path to realisation of ones own true self. Devis grace is always shrouded in mystery and come in quite unexpected ways. R Ravi Sankar Devi Bhakta <devi_bhakta wrote: Hi Nora: I'd toss in some comments on these topics, sice -- as you mentioned -- we had a good discussion on them the other day. You wrote: *** Abt Ammachi. Many years ago, in one of Ammachi's visit to Singapore. I never knew who she is then. Never heard about her. [After getting the famous Ammachi Hug ...] How do I feel? Nothing. I felt nothing. Just a normal hug, ive recevied from many mothers ive meet along the way. *** This is not really surprising, for several reasons: (1) It *is* a normal hug. Ammachi, whatever else she may be, is a flesh-and-blood human being. (2) Ammachi (as you state below) is not the point; YOU are. Like a guru giving diksha, she is performing a physical act, the effect of which depends partially on the receiver's belief, yes; but also on his/her knowledge, preparedness, commitment to the path and disciplined practice. It is like a seed that will sit there dormant for months, years, lifetimes even -- until the receiver is ready to seriously begin cultivating it. Only then will it blossom. Here's an odd thing: One of the best teachers I've read, in explaining the power of the guru's seed, is one Jesus of Nazareth, in a passage rarely dicussed (or rarely understood?) in the religious systems actually bearing his name: "Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no depth of root. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain. Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, multiplying thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times." Then Jesus added, "Those who have ears to hear, let them hear." So: Do we hear? Each teacher, each guru, offers something that a certain group of people needs -- depending on their time, place, culture and personal inclinations. Ammachi's hug might change the world for one who really needs that communication at that moment. For others -- perhaps not yet sensitive enough to receive her message; perhaps already evolved beyond it; perhaps intended for another guru - - it's just a nice hug. But if you should ever need her "seed" it will be there. Now, another brief quote, this one spoken by Sri Amritananda Natha Saraswati of Devipuram in 2003 -- a parable using a personal computer rather than a farmer's sowing to make its point. I have quoted the passage here before, but please read it again, comparing it to the Jesus teaching above: "When I switch on a computer, the monitor and the programs come alive. I interact with it and work on new programs. The computer and the power switch are the way to my experience of the programs (or whatever). The guru is like that, too. It is just an enabling device. Without it there is no experience of program. With it, it is not guaranteed. However, the conditions are (1) having the computer, electricity and programs, and (2) your willingness to sit in front of it and work. Given these two, results are still not guaranteed, but the conditions have been met for them to occur. Finally, you are the architect of your own realization." *** Some may say : how dare you to even suggest such a thing? Are you doubting Ammachi? No I am not. But I have a curious mind. Im being told, its this independent thinking that makes a good kuala. Im not sure I am one or a good one, I have a curious mind. That is all. *** In his book, "The Path to Enlightenment," the current Dalai Lama XIV discusses precisely this issue. In order to progress, you must have faith or belief in your guru. But you also must maintain a lively skepticism and spirit of inquiry -- blind faith and intellectual laziness are definitely not encouraged. A lot of what the Dalai Lama says, though the terminology and context are of course slightly different, applies beautifully to what we are taught in Srividya. The Dalai Lama speaks, for instace, of the spiritual advantages to be gained in considering your guru to be Divine, to be worshiped. But at the same time he notes that any thinking person should also be aware of their guru's non-divine side, his or her human failings. Most of these failings should be ignored or brushed aside, to avoid the kind of doubt and negative thinking that pollutes the belief and faith that makes a guru-shishya relationship "work." Again however, he stresses, that's not a license to *totally* ignore the discordant notes that might gradually build to warn you that a guru is not genuine -- or at least not right for you. Even so, one shouldn't be fickle, and hop from guru to guru, "shopping" for one who suits your current whims, rather than staying with one who will help you develop. In other words, from start to finish it's a razor's edge, a balancing act between faith/belief and inquiry/skepticism. All of these things are needed. *** I had a heated discussion with devi bhakta about this placebo effect. Do you consider Mantra too a placebo effect? *** I thought our conversation was really pleasant, not heated! :-) But I think the same analysis applies. A mantra is definitely not a placebo. Anyway who's ever worked seriously with mantras will not debate it; there are distinct physical, psychological, vibratory effects. But as with a guru, in addition to these real effects there are other factors that will determine how efficient the mantra is. Good pronunciation, as you say; understanding of meaning; the real openness and receptivity that's cultivated by bhakti. Those will determine how good your reception is, but the inherent power of the mantra itself is the same regardless of your ability to access it. It is like the "seed" of diksha -- constant and eternal, just waiting for you to realize it. aim mAtangyai namaH Win a BlackBerry device from O2 with . Enter now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 Silence Silence is spirituality Silence is simplicity Silence brings satisfaction Silence makes you smile Silence is sweetness Silence makes you sensible Silence is sensible Silence is sincerity Silence is stability Silence creates solutions Silence makes you strong Silence removes all selfishness Silence makes you a self-sovereign Silence makes you stress-free Silence puts a stop to worries Silence makes you since in happiness Silence creates your inner strength Silence makes you serviceable Silence makes you sacred Silence is having sympathy Silence brings safety Silence is solitude Silence is serenity Silence is stillness of mind Silence is having self-respect Silence makes you spontaneous Silence enables you to know all the secrets of life (taken from a poster from Swami Rama's Ashram in Rishikesh) The topic reminds me of two stories told in the evening discourses of Vipassana (http://www.dhamma.org) A man (okay okay woman ;-) ) hears of a restaurant that serves tasty and wholesome food, so decides she must check it out. So she goes there, the waiter approaches and offers her the menu. Se reads the menu, and sees that indeed there are wonderful dishes served in this resturant. So she places her order. While waiting to be served, she looks around at other diners who came before her; they are served and she can tell by they expresssions and gestures that they are indeed enjoying their meal. Her order is served, and she begins eting and enjoying her meal. Tale two ... A woman (okay okay a man ;-) ) is unwell. He visits his doctor, who examines him, them writes a prescription and hands it over to the man. Our man goes home, sets up an altar with the pic of the doctor and recites devotedly frm the prescription - "pink pill in the morning , yellow pill in the afternoon, blue pill at night" ... Overnight he gets curious, so next morning he again visits his doctor and enquires why he he given these pills ? His doctor explains that he has this disease caused due to a particular virus, that those pills will destroy the virus and he will be cured. Our man goes back, praises his doctors and quaarrels with anyone who disagrees that his doctor is indeed the greatest doctor ! He is still to take those pills and get cured !!! I understand knowledge, belief, devotion, humility are all essential because they motivate one along the path towards God/Truth/Reality. If a person has never heard of God it is impossible that he will ever seek God. By getting locked into knowledge debates, he stumbles. It is only when he endeavors "to become" as inspired, that he gains. Empty vessels make the most noise, should perhaps inspire many to keep thier two-pie pearls under wraps ;-) But that is rather harsh I think. There is this sangha, so we share, love and occassionally quarrel. There will come a time when we leave, become locked-in (attachment) or perhaps actually need more knowledge through this forum/sangha. Amma, Christ, Hitler have all been sources of inspiration. How we respond to them depends on our inner state. However, they have lived their dream. Have we found ours ? Are we living it ? Is this quest for Divinity, or Divinity itself Maya ? Who knows. The great Sages (our belief again) offer paths of practice and belief. Mantra, yantras, rituals, meditation, yoga, et all.... Do we question why an A is written such, or a B in another way.... but unquestioningly as children we accepted and now we can communicate. So perhaps there is some method in this spiritual madness. They say the Ultimate is indescribable and can only be Experienced. I find inspiration in this forum, and for me this helps. What is the 'buzz" we seek ? Is the Truth maya ? A buzz attained by spiritual acrobatics ? Accepting ALL like Shiva is basically being able to live with every diamond and garbage, like a boxer conditioned to receive and give punches. Is conditioning for eternal peace and happiness based on loving all which conditions us to accept all ? Take the stories of all Gods, Goddesses, Gurus > such difficult exisistences. Christ crusifixion, Krishna Mahabharat, the challenges and triumphs of Gods and Goddesses > eternal peace and happiness, I wonder ? Maya ! A B C ..... X Y Z Perhaaps there is method to the madness. I guess we will only know when we Be what we want to be Taking things the way they come Nothing is as nice As finding paradise And doing what must be done ;-) (plagarised from the Bacardi commercial) Just do it ! (Nike) When my way groweth drear Precious Lord, linger near When my light is almost gone Hear my cry, hear my call Hold my hand lest I fall Take my hand, precious Lord Lead me on. Precious Lord, take my hand Lead me on, let me stand I am tired, I am weak, I am worn Through the storm, through the night Lead me on to the light Take my hand, precious Lord Lead me home. In love, Red Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 Thank you so much for sharing yur insight. I have learnt so many lessons here. Thank you ! Devi Bhakta <devi_bhakta wrote: Hi Nora: I'd toss in some comments on these topics, sice -- as you mentioned -- we had a good discussion on them the other day. You wrote: *** Abt Ammachi. Many years ago, in one of Ammachi's visit to Singapore. I never knew who she is then. Never heard about her. [After getting the famous Ammachi Hug ...] How do I feel? Nothing. I felt nothing. Just a normal hug, ive recevied from many mothers ive meet along the way. *** This is not really surprising, for several reasons: (1) It *is* a normal hug. Ammachi, whatever else she may be, is a flesh-and-blood human being. (2) Ammachi (as you state below) is not the point; YOU are. Like a guru giving diksha, she is performing a physical act, the effect of which depends partially on the receiver's belief, yes; but also on his/her knowledge, preparedness, commitment to the path and disciplined practice. It is like a seed that will sit there dormant for months, years, lifetimes even -- until the receiver is ready to seriously begin cultivating it. Only then will it blossom. Here's an odd thing: One of the best teachers I've read, in explaining the power of the guru's seed, is one Jesus of Nazareth, in a passage rarely dicussed (or rarely understood?) in the religious systems actually bearing his name: "Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no depth of root. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain. Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, multiplying thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times." Then Jesus added, "Those who have ears to hear, let them hear." So: Do we hear? Each teacher, each guru, offers something that a certain group of people needs -- depending on their time, place, culture and personal inclinations. Ammachi's hug might change the world for one who really needs that communication at that moment. For others -- perhaps not yet sensitive enough to receive her message; perhaps already evolved beyond it; perhaps intended for another guru - - it's just a nice hug. But if you should ever need her "seed" it will be there. Now, another brief quote, this one spoken by Sri Amritananda Natha Saraswati of Devipuram in 2003 -- a parable using a personal computer rather than a farmer's sowing to make its point. I have quoted the passage here before, but please read it again, comparing it to the Jesus teaching above: "When I switch on a computer, the monitor and the programs come alive. I interact with it and work on new programs. The computer and the power switch are the way to my experience of the programs (or whatever). The guru is like that, too. It is just an enabling device. Without it there is no experience of program. With it, it is not guaranteed. However, the conditions are (1) having the computer, electricity and programs, and (2) your willingness to sit in front of it and work. Given these two, results are still not guaranteed, but the conditions have been met for them to occur. Finally, you are the architect of your own realization." *** Some may say : how dare you to even suggest such a thing? Are you doubting Ammachi? No I am not. But I have a curious mind. Im being told, its this independent thinking that makes a good kuala. Im not sure I am one or a good one, I have a curious mind. That is all. *** In his book, "The Path to Enlightenment," the current Dalai Lama XIV discusses precisely this issue. In order to progress, you must have faith or belief in your guru. But you also must maintain a lively skepticism and spirit of inquiry -- blind faith and intellectual laziness are definitely not encouraged. A lot of what the Dalai Lama says, though the terminology and context are of course slightly different, applies beautifully to what we are taught in Srividya. The Dalai Lama speaks, for instace, of the spiritual advantages to be gained in considering your guru to be Divine, to be worshiped. But at the same time he notes that any thinking person should also be aware of their guru's non-divine side, his or her human failings. Most of these failings should be ignored or brushed aside, to avoid the kind of doubt and negative thinking that pollutes the belief and faith that makes a guru-shishya relationship "work." Again however, he stresses, that's not a license to *totally* ignore the discordant notes that might gradually build to warn you that a guru is not genuine -- or at least not right for you. Even so, one shouldn't be fickle, and hop from guru to guru, "shopping" for one who suits your current whims, rather than staying with one who will help you develop. In other words, from start to finish it's a razor's edge, a balancing act between faith/belief and inquiry/skepticism. All of these things are needed. *** I had a heated discussion with devi bhakta about this placebo effect. Do you consider Mantra too a placebo effect? *** I thought our conversation was really pleasant, not heated! :-) But I think the same analysis applies. A mantra is definitely not a placebo. Anyway who's ever worked seriously with mantras will not debate it; there are distinct physical, psychological, vibratory effects. But as with a guru, in addition to these real effects there are other factors that will determine how efficient the mantra is. Good pronunciation, as you say; understanding of meaning; the real openness and receptivity that's cultivated by bhakti. Those will determine how good your reception is, but the inherent power of the mantra itself is the same regardless of your ability to access it. It is like the "seed" of diksha -- constant and eternal, just waiting for you to realize it. aim mAtangyai namaH Devi Traditions Divine Visit your group "" on the web. Relax. Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 Dear Vir You wrote: > > Amma, Christ, Hitler have all been sources of inspiration. How we respond to them depends on our inner state. However, they have lived their dream. Have we found ours ? Are we living it ? > I think you are talking about Adolf Hitler the German dictator mass murderer and criminal all he inspired was torture of the innocent. What dream did he live, that should inspire anyone and what inspiration would that be? What has this Person in common with Amma, could you clarify the Meaning of this passage. Mahahradanatha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 My dear Mahahradanatha, Thank you for refering to my post. I am truly sorry if I have offended you and any other reader by clubbing Amma with a monster. I should have explained my reasons at that time. I am sorry for being so careless and callous. Please allow me to explain my perception. The first common element is "inspire". Inspiration to other people. The second common element is "appeal" - that is, finding common-ground with the source of inspiration. The third common element, an essential quality; is "self-realisation" - identifying and living one's path ! For me this self-realisation and living it is, where I found the common-ground of inspiration and appeal. Alexander, Tagore, Gandhi, Amma, Jesus, etc. they walked their talk, lived their dream/belief and remained true to themselves. For me the point is that each lived their belief. BUT it was NOT A BLIND BELIEF !!! Osho says on pg xxi and xxii of 'new man for the new millennium' - "To start with belief is not to start at all. Too start with belief is just playing a game with yourself. You have already believed, how can you explore ?" ....................... "The New Man is not going to have anything to do with such nonsense, the New Man will only believe if he knows. This is real trust - trust in ones own possibilities, ones own potential. The New Man will respect himself. To believe in external authorities is disrespectful towards one own being". I hope I have been able to answer your question satisfactorily. In peace and remorse, Red mahahradanatha <mahahradanatha wrote: Dear Vir You wrote: > > Amma, Christ, Hitler have all been sources of inspiration. How we respond to them depends on our inner state. However, they have lived their dream. Have we found ours ? Are we living it ? > I think you are talking about Adolf Hitler the German dictator mass murderer and criminal all he inspired was torture of the innocent. What dream did he live, that should inspire anyone and what inspiration would that be? What has this Person in common with Amma, could you clarify the Meaning of this passage. Mahahradanatha Devi Traditions Divine Visit your group "" on the web. Relax. Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 Hi shakti sadhana group members I am Radhakrishnan, a new member of the group. I am a greenhorn Devi Bhakta. This is regarding Vir's apologies about clubbing Amma with Hitler. The point to be seen is: Hitler did have a vision, a grand vision of Germany. He was as a matter of fact able to inspire tens of thousands of his people. The path he chose for the fulfilment of his vision could be horrifying, but it's a fact his followers were in deed led up this path. It's also a fact that he lived his belief. He too was Devi's creation just as Hiranyakashipu or Ravana or the child-slaughterer Kamsa. For that matter, Mahatma Gandhi who even to-day commands the respect of world people was arraigned for treason against British empire. What would a Brit of those days have thought of the Mahatma. Churchil called him a half naked fakir. Both of them appear in the list of great men. Speaking of the holocaust which really really shocked the entire world and brought the denoument of Hitler emotionally among his own people could pale into insignificance if one takes into account the number of murders and rapes and systematic slaughter of fellow humans during the crusade wars or inquisition. These historical events are so distant and the affected were weak, so no one dares speak of this, whereas in comparison Hitler's heinous deeds are fresh and being perpetuated in the memory of people who are powerful in the modern world. Thus from purely the point of having had a vision and walking one's chosen path, Hitler's name can be included; remeber he had had to pay the cost. He is not remembered the way Mahatma is nor revered the way Amma is by her devotees. Thus, Vir, in my opinion -- I am not an opinionated conceit, but an ordinary imbecile, seeking but self-realisation and mother's grace -- you did not club Amma with Hitler in the sense of defining a genre. After all, na hanyate hanyamaane sharire -- Bhishma and Drona did gang up with Duryodhana and Dus-shaasana. Here too, though Bhishma paid for his adamance, it is he who revealed Vishnu Sahasranama so revered and religeously recited in South Indian households till date. I invite comments and feedback on my position. Namaste -- Radhakrishnan Vir Rawlley <redderred wrote: My dear Mahahradanatha, Thank you for refering to my post. I am truly sorry if I have offended you and any other reader by clubbing Amma with a monster. I should have explained my reasons at that time. I am sorry for being so careless and callous. Please allow me to explain my perception. The first common element is "inspire". Inspiration to other people. The second common element is "appeal" - that is, finding common-ground with the source of inspiration. The third common element, an essential quality; is "self-realisation" - identifying and living one's path ! For me this self-realisation and living it is, where I found the common-ground of inspiration and appeal. Alexander, Tagore, Gandhi, Amma, Jesus, etc. they walked their talk, lived their dream/belief and remained true to themselves. For me the point is that each lived their belief. BUT it was NOT A BLIND BELIEF !!! Osho says on pg xxi and xxii of 'new man for the new millennium' - "To start with belief is not to start at all. Too start with belief is just playing a game with yourself. You have already believed, how can you explore ?" ....................... "The New Man is not going to have anything to do with such nonsense, the New Man will only believe if he knows. This is real trust - trust in ones own possibilities, ones own potential. The New Man will respect himself. To believe in external authorities is disrespectful towards one own being". I hope I have been able to answer your question satisfactorily. In peace and remorse, Red mahahradanatha <mahahradanatha wrote: Dear Vir You wrote: > > Amma, Christ, Hitler have all been sources of inspiration. How we respond to them depends on our inner state. However, they have lived their dream. Have we found ours ? Are we living it ? > I think you are talking about Adolf Hitler the German dictator mass murderer and criminal all he inspired was torture of the innocent. What dream did he live, that should inspire anyone and what inspiration would that be? What has this Person in common with Amma, could you clarify the Meaning of this passage. Mahahradanatha Devi Traditions Divine Visit your group "" on the web. Relax. Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! Devi Traditions Divine Visit your group "" on the web. Brings words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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