Guest guest Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 KAULACHARA: Worship Focused in the Body Samayachara and Dakshinachara traditions are, in the main, not very controversial; nearly any religious system could approve. But the Kaulachara marks a place where some people begin to get uncomfortable. Because here the focus turns to the human body itself as the microcosm that allows us to interface with the Macrocosm. Here is where we come face to face with the reality of Tantra – which is neither luridly "sexy" (as its Western "practitioners" would have it) nor decadently debased (as its Eastern critics claim). Tantra is not a religion; it is a methodology that can (but need not) be used in approaching many religious systems within Hinduism and Buddhism. You see, the central theme of Tantra has nothing to do with sex or booze; instead it is the seamless web – the idea of the absolute interrelatedness – and ultimate Oneness -- of all things that exist, seen or unseen. Stepping down a peg, the main practical corollary of all this is the Macrocosmic/Microcosmic parallel – that life on the micro-level (individual lives and acts) can be used to extrapolate an understanding of life on the Macro (cosmic and divine) level (and vice versa). Stepping down a final peg from theory to practice, we may add that this basic web of beliefs is realized through powerful ritual acts involving body, speech and mind. The Kaulachara "toolbox" does indeed include such sensational rituals as the panchamakara, the yoni puja and so on. But such rituals are, in fact, "exotics" – used once in a great while by some sadhaks in some circumstances, and by many others not at all. Perhaps the most common "body worship" acts in Kaulachara are the nyasas, which are totally unobjectionable – making the Christian sign of the cross is a type of nyasa, for goodness' sake. In the Kaulachara tradition, the idol is replaced by a living woman or a man or a couple. You can also think of Her as the Union of Shiva and Shakti. You can worship Her as a woman, as a man, or as both. There are no restrictions in this regard. When we give Her a bath, we not only chant the Durga and Lakshmi Suktams; we also chant the Purusha Suktam and the Rudram. The word "She" contains the word "He". So you need not worry that you are only worshiping the Mother Goddess and ignoring the Father God. You are worshiping both. In the Kaulachara tradition, the notion of the self is completely negated. You see everyone as yourself. You invoke the Goddess into your spouse, into the suvasini or into anyone. You yourself become the Goddess in the Viraja homa, even as you are worshiping Her. That is why it is said that Kaulas accumulate no karma – it is not a boast, but a logical result when one sheds the "self" to which karma generally attaches itself. There can be no sense of shame in this process. That is why Dattatreya is known as Digambara, the Naked One. Dattatreya Digambara is one of the great mantras of Dattatreya. Shridi Sai Baba, Satya Sai Baba, Paramahamsa Yogananda, Ganapati Sacchidananda – all of these teachers come from the Dattatreya tradition. It is worth noting here that the Kaulachara follow all three concepts, one progressing into the next, starting as Kaulas and then later internalizing everything; external worship ends, becoming more dakshina or samaya in nature – but the achara remains Kaula. Cp. Lalita Sahasranama: "samayachara talpara." VAMACHARA The last Achara is called the Vamachara tradition. In contrast to the other three Acharas described here – which are based on the worship of the protective, nourishing, healing kind of aspects of the Divine – the Vamachara tradition worships the terrible aspects of the Divine, the laya pradhana, where dissolution is the main aspect. It is dissolution of the upasaka into the ultimate, resulting in absolute merger. It is the Vamachara tradition that employs, among other things, rituals in the cremation grounds. There you will find vairagya, complete detachment. One's energy leaves the Visshudi Chakra, going up to the Command Centers and never coming down. It is very difficult to arrive at these centers without passing through the lower chakras. For example, until one has experienced Anahata Chakra, the heart center, to arrive at the Ajna Center is very dangerous: One will experience an inordinate number of fears that cannot be shaken off. One cannot be given the astra vidyas, the so- called "atom bomb" mantras and teachings -- because atom bombs can't be put into the hands of crazy people. Suffice it to say that the Vamachara path is very dangerous without a proper guru. The aghoris are Vamacharis. Some Vamacharis do use their energies for healing. One we know in Benares uses his healing energy to cure the lepers etc. Normally we like to think of God in the beautiful sense; but the Vamacharis prefer to think of God in the terrible sense. aim mAtangyai namaH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Hi D.B. Beautifully explained. All these traditions have the sanction of Sastras -- so no question that anyone occidental or oriental can look down with disdain on some of the treaditions, though it's a fact the word Tantra and Tantric evokes bad connotations among the laity. Lalitasahasranama which we consider a part of mantrasastra, meaning, every name of Lalita in the sahasranama is a mantra, proclaims "savya-apasavya margastha, sarvapadvinivarini". both the paths, righthanded and lefthanded with their subdivisions, are sanctioned by Lalita herself and she protects the practitioners from all evils and obstacles. She is also samayachara tatpara. "Pashu, veera, daiva - upasita and upasya" words within this quote are mine. The unintiated can simply recite Soundaryalahari and Lalitasahasranama sitting in front of a pratima of Devi or Srichakra; in due course the Devi will lead the Sadhaka to proper initiation. Rites are basically for chittashuddhi. It's like clearing the soot from the glass so the light shines forth. Devi is already in the dahara-akasha, she is not to be attained from some extra-terrestrail space, rather only to be re-membered within oneself. Thanks in deed once again for your exposition which will be useful to many not brought up in the tradition. Om Namastripurasundari. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Dear Radhakrishnan: Thank you for your kind words as well as your excellent additional comments. DB , Radhakrishnan J <jayaarshree wrote: > > Hi D.B. > Beautifully explained. All these traditions have the sanction of > Sastras -- so no question that anyone occidental or oriental can look down with disdain on some of the treaditions, though it's a fact the word Tantra and Tantric evokes bad connotations among the laity. Lalitasahasranama which we consider a part of mantrasastra, meaning, every name of Lalita in the sahasranama is a mantra, proclaims "savya-apasavya margastha, sarvapadvinivarini". both the paths, righthanded and lefthanded with their subdivisions, are sanctioned by Lalita herself and she protects the practitioners from all evils and obstacles. She is also samayachara tatpara. "Pashu, veera, daiva - upasita and upasya" words within this quote are mine. > > The unintiated can simply recite Soundaryalahari and Lalitasahasranama sitting in front of a pratima of Devi or Srichakra; in due course the Devi will lead the Sadhaka to proper initiation. Rites are basically for chittashuddhi. It's like clearing the soot from the glass so the light shines forth. Devi is already in the dahara-akasha, she is not to be attained from some extra-terrestrail space, rather only to be re-membered within oneself. > > Thanks in deed once again for your exposition which will be useful to many not brought up in the tradition. > > Om Namastripurasundari. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2006 Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 Dear DB The task of writing an essay on the different tantric paths is such a complicated matter with so many differing and sometimes opposing viewpoints that do exist, even in the Agamas and Nigamas themselves, if one decides to analyse the current use and misuse of all of the relevant terms, the task becomes overwhelming. I admire your courage to begin this topic at all and i think it is an excellent essay, but because of the reasons mentioned it can never be complete or flawless because of the widely differing views. The Distinctions are of course not always clear cut. According to my Information vamachara traditions are not centered around fierce deities only. All kinds of non-fierce deity traditions are (or where present in the past) in the Vamachara besides Sridevi, because some of these sects are nearly extinct this is not so well known. There are worshippers of ucchista Ganapati that are vamacharins founded by Herambasuta, but there exists also vamachara traditions that center around kumara (muruga), vishnu, lakshmi, bala sundari, and Shodasi. Lord jagannatha and Vimala are also worshipped by vaishnava vamacharins. In these Vaishnava traditions of lord jaganath sri yantra is employed. In Puri is the Pitha (holy seat) of those traditions this is mentionend in Rudrayamala and many other tantras. Of course many sadhu traditions are more or less closely related to the vamachara like the Aghori, Kapalika, and Nath panth that do not worship exclusively the fierce forms of Shiva. Adinath the main form of shiva worshipped by Nath Panth for instance is not a fierce form of Shiva, though fierce forms like Kalabhairava are worshipped side by side with bala sundari. Siddhanta Vamachara and Kaulachara is present within these traditions Mahahradanatha , "Devi Bhakta" <devi_bhakta wrote: > > KAULACHARA: Worship Focused in the Body > > Samayachara and Dakshinachara traditions are, in the main, not very > controversial; nearly any religious system could approve. But the > Kaulachara marks a place where some people begin to get > uncomfortable. Because here the focus turns to the human body itself > as the microcosm that allows us to interface with the Macrocosm. > Here is where we come face to face with the reality of Tantra – > which is neither luridly "sexy" (as its Western "practitioners" > would have it) nor decadently debased (as its Eastern critics > claim). Tantra is not a religion; it is a methodology that can (but > need not) be used in approaching many religious systems within > Hinduism and Buddhism. > > You see, the central theme of Tantra has nothing to do with sex or > booze; instead it is the seamless web – the idea of the absolute > interrelatedness – and ultimate Oneness -- of all things that exist, > seen or unseen. Stepping down a peg, the main practical corollary of > all this is the Macrocosmic/Microcosmic parallel – that life on the > micro-level (individual lives and acts) can be used to extrapolate > an understanding of life on the Macro (cosmic and divine) level (and > vice versa). Stepping down a final peg from theory to practice, we > may add that this basic web of beliefs is realized through powerful > ritual acts involving body, speech and mind. > > The Kaulachara "toolbox" does indeed include such sensational > rituals as the panchamakara, the yoni puja and so on. But such > rituals are, in fact, "exotics" – used once in a great while by some > sadhaks in some circumstances, and by many others not at all. > Perhaps the most common "body worship" acts in Kaulachara are the > nyasas, which are totally unobjectionable – making the Christian > sign of the cross is a type of nyasa, for goodness' sake. > > In the Kaulachara tradition, the idol is replaced by a living woman > or a man or a couple. You can also think of Her as the Union of > Shiva and Shakti. You can worship Her as a woman, as a man, or as > both. There are no restrictions in this regard. When we give Her a > bath, we not only chant the Durga and Lakshmi Suktams; we also chant > the Purusha Suktam and the Rudram. The word "She" contains the > word "He". So you need not worry that you are only worshiping the > Mother Goddess and ignoring the Father God. You are worshiping both. > > In the Kaulachara tradition, the notion of the self is completely > negated. You see everyone as yourself. You invoke the Goddess into > your spouse, into the suvasini or into anyone. You yourself become > the Goddess in the Viraja homa, even as you are worshiping Her. That > is why it is said that Kaulas accumulate no karma – it is not a > boast, but a logical result when one sheds the "self" to which karma > generally attaches itself. > > There can be no sense of shame in this process. That is why > Dattatreya is known as Digambara, the Naked One. Dattatreya > Digambara is one of the great mantras of Dattatreya. Shridi Sai > Baba, Satya Sai Baba, Paramahamsa Yogananda, Ganapati Sacchidananda – > all of these teachers come from the Dattatreya tradition. > > It is worth noting here that the Kaulachara follow all three > concepts, one progressing into the next, starting as Kaulas and then > later internalizing everything; external worship ends, becoming more > dakshina or samaya in nature – but the achara remains Kaula. Cp. > Lalita Sahasranama: "samayachara talpara." > > VAMACHARA > > The last Achara is called the Vamachara tradition. In contrast to > the other three Acharas described here – which are based on the > worship of the protective, nourishing, healing kind of aspects of > the Divine – the Vamachara tradition worships the terrible aspects > of the Divine, the laya pradhana, where dissolution is the main > aspect. It is dissolution of the upasaka into the ultimate, > resulting in absolute merger. > > It is the Vamachara tradition that employs, among other things, > rituals in the cremation grounds. There you will find vairagya, > complete detachment. One's energy leaves the Visshudi Chakra, going > up to the Command Centers and never coming down. It is very > difficult to arrive at these centers without passing through the > lower chakras. For example, until one has experienced Anahata > Chakra, the heart center, to arrive at the Ajna Center is very > dangerous: One will experience an inordinate number of fears that > cannot be shaken off. One cannot be given the astra vidyas, the so- > called "atom bomb" mantras and teachings -- because atom bombs can't > be put into the hands of crazy people. > > Suffice it to say that the Vamachara path is very dangerous without > a proper guru. The aghoris are Vamacharis. Some Vamacharis do use > their energies for healing. One we know in Benares uses his healing > energy to cure the lepers etc. Normally we like to think of God in > the beautiful sense; but the Vamacharis prefer to think of God in > the terrible sense. > > aim mAtangyai namaH > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2006 Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 I fully agree. But I must say that the traditions like uchishta ganapati still exist. mahahradanatha <mahahradanatha wrote: Dear DB The task of writing an essay on the different tantric paths is such a complicated matter with so many differing and sometimes opposing viewpoints that do exist, even in the Agamas and Nigamas themselves, if one decides to analyse the current use and misuse of all of the relevant terms, the task becomes overwhelming. I admire your courage to begin this topic at all and i think it is an excellent essay, but because of the reasons mentioned it can never be complete or flawless because of the widely differing views. The Distinctions are of course not always clear cut. According to my Information vamachara traditions are not centered around fierce deities only. All kinds of non-fierce deity traditions are (or where present in the past) in the Vamachara besides Sridevi, because some of these sects are nearly extinct this is not so well known. There are worshippers of ucchista Ganapati that are vamacharins founded by Herambasuta, but there exists also vamachara traditions that center around kumara (muruga), vishnu, lakshmi, bala sundari, and Shodasi. Lord jagannatha and Vimala are also worshipped by vaishnava vamacharins. In these Vaishnava traditions of lord jaganath sri yantra is employed. In Puri is the Pitha (holy seat) of those traditions this is mentionend in Rudrayamala and many other tantras. Of course many sadhu traditions are more or less closely related to the vamachara like the Aghori, Kapalika, and Nath panth that do not worship exclusively the fierce forms of Shiva. Adinath the main form of shiva worshipped by Nath Panth for instance is not a fierce form of Shiva, though fierce forms like Kalabhairava are worshipped side by side with bala sundari. Siddhanta Vamachara and Kaulachara is present within these traditions Mahahradanatha , "Devi Bhakta" <devi_bhakta wrote: > > KAULACHARA: Worship Focused in the Body > > Samayachara and Dakshinachara traditions are, in the main, not very > controversial; nearly any religious system could approve. But the > Kaulachara marks a place where some people begin to get > uncomfortable. Because here the focus turns to the human body itself > as the microcosm that allows us to interface with the Macrocosm. > Here is where we come face to face with the reality of Tantra – > which is neither luridly "sexy" (as its Western "practitioners" > would have it) nor decadently debased (as its Eastern critics > claim). Tantra is not a religion; it is a methodology that can (but > need not) be used in approaching many religious systems within > Hinduism and Buddhism. > > You see, the central theme of Tantra has nothing to do with sex or > booze; instead it is the seamless web – the idea of the absolute > interrelatedness – and ultimate Oneness -- of all things that exist, > seen or unseen. Stepping down a peg, the main practical corollary of > all this is the Macrocosmic/Microcosmic parallel – that life on the > micro-level (individual lives and acts) can be used to extrapolate > an understanding of life on the Macro (cosmic and divine) level (and > vice versa). Stepping down a final peg from theory to practice, we > may add that this basic web of beliefs is realized through powerful > ritual acts involving body, speech and mind. > > The Kaulachara "toolbox" does indeed include such sensational > rituals as the panchamakara, the yoni puja and so on. But such > rituals are, in fact, "exotics" – used once in a great while by some > sadhaks in some circumstances, and by many others not at all. > Perhaps the most common "body worship" acts in Kaulachara are the > nyasas, which are totally unobjectionable – making the Christian > sign of the cross is a type of nyasa, for goodness' sake. > > In the Kaulachara tradition, the idol is replaced by a living woman > or a man or a couple. You can also think of Her as the Union of > Shiva and Shakti. You can worship Her as a woman, as a man, or as > both. There are no restrictions in this regard. When we give Her a > bath, we not only chant the Durga and Lakshmi Suktams; we also chant > the Purusha Suktam and the Rudram. The word "She" contains the > word "He". So you need not worry that you are only worshiping the > Mother Goddess and ignoring the Father God. You are worshiping both. > > In the Kaulachara tradition, the notion of the self is completely > negated. You see everyone as yourself. You invoke the Goddess into > your spouse, into the suvasini or into anyone. You yourself become > the Goddess in the Viraja homa, even as you are worshiping Her. That > is why it is said that Kaulas accumulate no karma – it is not a > boast, but a logical result when one sheds the "self" to which karma > generally attaches itself. > > There can be no sense of shame in this process. That is why > Dattatreya is known as Digambara, the Naked One. Dattatreya > Digambara is one of the great mantras of Dattatreya. Shridi Sai > Baba, Satya Sai Baba, Paramahamsa Yogananda, Ganapati Sacchidananda – > all of these teachers come from the Dattatreya tradition. > > It is worth noting here that the Kaulachara follow all three > concepts, one progressing into the next, starting as Kaulas and then > later internalizing everything; external worship ends, becoming more > dakshina or samaya in nature – but the achara remains Kaula. Cp. > Lalita Sahasranama: "samayachara talpara." > > VAMACHARA > > The last Achara is called the Vamachara tradition. In contrast to > the other three Acharas described here – which are based on the > worship of the protective, nourishing, healing kind of aspects of > the Divine – the Vamachara tradition worships the terrible aspects > of the Divine, the laya pradhana, where dissolution is the main > aspect. It is dissolution of the upasaka into the ultimate, > resulting in absolute merger. > > It is the Vamachara tradition that employs, among other things, > rituals in the cremation grounds. There you will find vairagya, > complete detachment. One's energy leaves the Visshudi Chakra, going > up to the Command Centers and never coming down. It is very > difficult to arrive at these centers without passing through the > lower chakras. For example, until one has experienced Anahata > Chakra, the heart center, to arrive at the Ajna Center is very > dangerous: One will experience an inordinate number of fears that > cannot be shaken off. One cannot be given the astra vidyas, the so- > called "atom bomb" mantras and teachings -- because atom bombs can't > be put into the hands of crazy people. > > Suffice it to say that the Vamachara path is very dangerous without > a proper guru. The aghoris are Vamacharis. Some Vamacharis do use > their energies for healing. One we know in Benares uses his healing > energy to cure the lepers etc. Normally we like to think of God in > the beautiful sense; but the Vamacharis prefer to think of God in > the terrible sense. > > aim mAtangyai namaH > Traditions Divine Hinduism Visit your group "" on the web. Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Dear Devi Bakta, I am pleased with your exposition but did you say it right when you said I qoute: < Stepping down a peg, the main practical corollary of .... isn't that "Stepping down on a knife ..." as it is considered the path in Tantra ? I am just asking is it "peg" or "knife" ? Dave -------------------------------- Devi Bhakta <devi_bhakta wrote: KAULACHARA: Worship Focused in the Body Samayachara and Dakshinachara traditions are, in the main, not very controversial; nearly any religious system could approve. But the Kaulachara marks a place where some people begin to get uncomfortable. Because here the focus turns to the human body itself as the microcosm that allows us to interface with the Macrocosm. Here is where we come face to face with the reality of Tantra – which is neither luridly "sexy" (as its Western "practitioners" would have it) nor decadently debased (as its Eastern critics claim). Tantra is not a religion; it is a methodology that can (but need not) be used in approaching many religious systems within Hinduism and Buddhism. You see, the central theme of Tantra has nothing to do with sex or booze; instead it is the seamless web – the idea of the absolute interrelatedness – and ultimate Oneness -- of all things that exist, seen or unseen. Stepping down a peg, the main practical corollary of all this is the Macrocosmic/Microcosmic parallel – that life on the micro-level (individual lives and acts) can be used to extrapolate an understanding of life on the Macro (cosmic and divine) level (and vice versa). Stepping down a final peg from theory to practice, we may add that this basic web of beliefs is realized through powerful ritual acts involving body, speech and mind. The Kaulachara "toolbox" does indeed include such sensational rituals as the panchamakara, the yoni puja and so on. But such rituals are, in fact, "exotics" – used once in a great while by some sadhaks in some circumstances, and by many others not at all. Perhaps the most common "body worship" acts in Kaulachara are the nyasas, which are totally unobjectionable – making the Christian sign of the cross is a type of nyasa, for goodness' sake. In the Kaulachara tradition, the idol is replaced by a living woman or a man or a couple. You can also think of Her as the Union of Shiva and Shakti. You can worship Her as a woman, as a man, or as both. There are no restrictions in this regard. When we give Her a bath, we not only chant the Durga and Lakshmi Suktams; we also chant the Purusha Suktam and the Rudram. The word "She" contains the word "He". So you need not worry that you are only worshiping the Mother Goddess and ignoring the Father God. You are worshiping both. In the Kaulachara tradition, the notion of the self is completely negated. You see everyone as yourself. You invoke the Goddess into your spouse, into the suvasini or into anyone. You yourself become the Goddess in the Viraja homa, even as you are worshiping Her. That is why it is said that Kaulas accumulate no karma – it is not a boast, but a logical result when one sheds the "self" to which karma generally attaches itself. There can be no sense of shame in this process. That is why Dattatreya is known as Digambara, the Naked One. Dattatreya Digambara is one of the great mantras of Dattatreya. Shridi Sai Baba, Satya Sai Baba, Paramahamsa Yogananda, Ganapati Sacchidananda – all of these teachers come from the Dattatreya tradition. It is worth noting here that the Kaulachara follow all three concepts, one progressing into the next, starting as Kaulas and then later internalizing everything; external worship ends, becoming more dakshina or samaya in nature – but the achara remains Kaula. Cp. Lalita Sahasranama: "samayachara talpara." VAMACHARA The last Achara is called the Vamachara tradition. In contrast to the other three Acharas described here – which are based on the worship of the protective, nourishing, healing kind of aspects of the Divine – the Vamachara tradition worships the terrible aspects of the Divine, the laya pradhana, where dissolution is the main aspect. It is dissolution of the upasaka into the ultimate, resulting in absolute merger. It is the Vamachara tradition that employs, among other things, rituals in the cremation grounds. There you will find vairagya, complete detachment. One's energy leaves the Visshudi Chakra, going up to the Command Centers and never coming down. It is very difficult to arrive at these centers without passing through the lower chakras. For example, until one has experienced Anahata Chakra, the heart center, to arrive at the Ajna Center is very dangerous: One will experience an inordinate number of fears that cannot be shaken off. One cannot be given the astra vidyas, the so- called "atom bomb" mantras and teachings -- because atom bombs can't be put into the hands of crazy people. Suffice it to say that the Vamachara path is very dangerous without a proper guru. The aghoris are Vamacharis. Some Vamacharis do use their energies for healing. One we know in Benares uses his healing energy to cure the lepers etc. Normally we like to think of God in the beautiful sense; but the Vamacharis prefer to think of God in the terrible sense. aim mAtangyai namaH Devi Traditions Divine Hinduism Visit your group "" on the web. Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Hi Mahahradanatha Thank you for your kind comments on the Srividya discussion. You note: *** The task of writing an essay on the different tantric paths is such a complicated matter with so many differing and sometimes opposing viewpoints [...] even in the Agamas and Nigamas themselves [that ...] the task becomes overwhelming. *** Agreed. But that's no excuse not to try to explain something in simple, broad terms that will at least give people a place to begin a discussion. In this case, the essay was inspired by observing a person who claimed 14 years of Srividya upasana -- and yet seemed to lack even a rudimentary grasp of what the tradition, leading to total misinterpretation of her own (she claims) guru's position. It seemed to me, therefore, that a beginner's primer on the subjedct would not be a bad idea. *** I admire your courage to begin this topic at all and i think it is an excellent essay, but because of the reasons mentioned it can never be complete or flawless because of the widely differing views. *** You can say that elementary and high-school physics courses are "incomplete and flawed" because they mainly concentrate on workaday Newtonian physics ... a theory that -- as Einstein and others have shown -- begins to fall apart as soon as you leave our everyday world, moving to light speed; viewing subatomic or macrocosmic phenomena. So what does that mean? That we should therefore not bother with teaching high-school physics? No. It is enough to say, "All of this holds true for about 95% of everyday situations. Please note that as physical circumstances become less familiar and more rarified, new, more difficult and exotic refinements and exceptions begin to occur. Those of you interested in such things may pursue them in good time. For now, however, it's important to establish a workable foundation in the familiar, from which you may launch into stranger realms at a later time." *** The Distinctions are of course not always clear cut. *** Of course. I agree. But my argument remains. A workable intellectual framework is a good place to start, assimilating finer distinctions and exceptions as one's experience grows. When you begin a course in hatha yoga, a good teacher will always spend a lot of time focusing on form at the outset. Because if you don't spend time on building this strong (albeit boring and unspectacular) foundation, whatever castle you build will be left wobbling precariously on sand. That is how this 14-year Srividya upasika seemed to me. She was a high building on a wobbly foundation. A sad waste of time because eventually you have to go back to the beginning and build reinforcements to avoid a disasterous collapse. As much as we'd like to think otherwise, there are very few shortcuts in sadhana. *** According to my Information vamachara traditions are not centered around fierce deities only. *** Again, I agree. I'd noted as much in my letter to Samathmika, where I stated: "Yes. But please know that the Vamachara paths involve much more than the worship of 'fierce' goddesses. Kaali, Praytangira, Vanadurga, Shoolini, etc. (all of whom are frequently invoked in Guruji Amrita's practice and practice prescriptions), in my opinion can be classified as Vama. Vama is, after all, largely about breaking the traditional taboos; 'fierceness' apart, when one [for example] who is by definition a vegetarian uses meat it is vama." But in general, your points are well taken and correct. Thank you DB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Hi Dave: Well, I was simply using a colloquialism in that case! :-p And certainly, any one- or two- paragragh "quickie summary" of Tantra is going to need several hundred pages of footnotes before any concensus will be reached ... But you are 100% correct to observe that the path of Tantra is a knife's blade. Far from being decadants and libertines, the Kaulas I have been privileged to know are some of the most amazingly self- disciplined, self-controlled individuals one could ever hope to meet. Thanks for the comment DB , david keller <davekeller121 wrote: > > > Dear Devi Bakta, > > I am pleased with your exposition but did you say it right when you said I qoute: > > < Stepping down a peg, the main practical corollary of .... > > isn't that "Stepping down on a knife ..." as it is considered the path in Tantra ? > I am just asking is it "peg" or "knife" ? > > Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 , "Devi Bhakta" <devi_bhakta wrote: > > Hi Mahahradanatha > > Thank you for your kind comments on the Srividya discussion. > > You note: *** The task of writing an essay on the different tantric > paths is such a complicated matter with so many differing and > sometimes opposing viewpoints [...] even in the Agamas and Nigamas > themselves [that ...] the task becomes overwhelming. *** > > Agreed. But that's no excuse not to try to explain something in > simple, broad terms that will at least give people a place to begin > a discussion. In this case, the essay was inspired by observing a > person who claimed 14 years of Srividya upasana -- and yet seemed >to > lack even a rudimentary grasp of what the tradition, leading to > total misinterpretation of her own (she claims) guru's position. > > It seemed to me, therefore, that a beginner's primer on the subjedct > would not be a bad idea. No not at all and i am glad you decided to take that step. I was really perplexed to hear from you that shri shri Amritanandanatha is her Guru. Often itis Ignorance that is the cause of mistrust, mistrust again causes fear and often fear causes violence and that again mistrust. That is why it is very important to make Information available so that ignorance which according to the buddhistis the root cause of suufering is dimished. knowledge trust and Courage is an antidote to violence. knowledge can cause gentleness and trust, that can cause joy and acceptance. > > *** I admire your courage to begin this topic at all and i think it > is an excellent essay, but because of the reasons mentioned it can > never be complete or flawless because of the widely differing views. > *** > > You can say that elementary and high-school physics courses > are "incomplete and flawed" because they mainly concentrate on > workaday Newtonian physics ... a theory that -- as Einstein and > others have shown -- begins to fall apart as soon as you leave our > everyday world, moving to light speed; viewing subatomic or > macrocosmic phenomena. > > So what does that mean? That we should therefore not bother with > teaching high-school physics? No. It is enough to say, "All of this > holds true for about 95% of everyday situations. Please note that as > physical circumstances become less familiar and more rarified, new, > more difficult and exotic refinements and exceptions begin to occur. > Those of you interested in such things may pursue them in good time. > For now, however, it's important to establish a workable foundation > in the familiar, from which you may launch into stranger realms at a > later time." I do agree on that one and curiously a buddhist teacher told me that his or the buddhas teachings only serve as a raft to cross the river after reaching the other shore it can be safely abondend. > > *** The Distinctions are of course not always clear cut. *** > > Of course. I agree. But my argument remains. A workable intellectual > framework is a good place to start, assimilating finer distinctions > and exceptions as one's experience grows. > > When you begin a course in hatha yoga, a good teacher will always > spend a lot of time focusing on form at the outset. Because if you > don't spend time on building this strong (albeit boring and > unspectacular) foundation, whatever castle you build will be left > wobbling precariously on sand. > > That is how this 14-year Srividya upasika seemed to me. She was a > high building on a wobbly foundation. A sad waste of time because > eventually you have to go back to the beginning and build > reinforcements to avoid a disasterous collapse. As much as we'd like > to think otherwise, there are very few shortcuts in sadhana. > > *** According to my Information vamachara traditions are not > centered around fierce deities only. *** > > Again, I agree. I'd noted as much in my letter to Samathmika, where > I stated: "Yes. But please know that the Vamachara paths involve > much more than the worship of 'fierce' goddesses. Kaali, > Praytangira, Vanadurga, Shoolini, etc. (all of whom are frequently > invoked in Guruji Amrita's practice and practice prescriptions), in > my opinion can be classified as Vama. Vama is, after all, largely > about breaking the traditional taboos; 'fierceness' apart, when one > [for example] who is by definition a vegetarian uses meat it is > vama." > Yes this is my humble opinion also, as little as i have seen of Amritanandanathas Teachings they begin with the Vamamarga and reach into Kaulamarga. Now that i know that her guru is Amritanadanatha my questions put to her gain in relevance. She already is part of that which she is afraid of even being in contact with. Amazing! But maybe some deeper destiny from past lives is involved. We all have some blind spots, where we refuse to face the facts, but Samatmikas ignorance of the teachings she professes to follow is absurd ,thats why i see some very mysterious reasons for that situaton she is in. I am reminded about that verse from Kularnava Tantra. He who is deluded by your maya sees not while he sees, understands not while he hears, and knows not the truth while he reads - Kularnava Tantra > But in general, your points are well taken and correct. > > Thank you No problem:) I hope i can find some more time to add some more information. Mahahradanatha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 OM SrIguruH sarva kAraNa BUtA SaktiH. OM SrIman mahA gaNAdhipatayE namaH. Confusion lies in mind. fuse it with the soul-consciousness, to look above confusion. Please have conscient-fusion to get rid of confusion. I do not care about different pAths, that they say exist. As long as I am not practising any given pAth, it is as good as it does not exist for me. There is no difference, whether it exists or not in others minds. I never care giving explanations on different pAths. And I do not care either, if somebody, gives explanations on different pAths, if they have not followed all of those pAths. You do not get authority to comment on a pAth, if you have not followed it, not tasted it, that simple. Say, before taking the pAth, shown by my guru, If I 'scoped'/ 'browsed' around different pAths to see which one to follow, my opinion there holds true to the 'truth of sources' that I browsed. And this 'truth of sources' too is soooo volatile, that I cannot vouch for them. By comparing pAths, now, what will I get? more confusion. Is that, what I seek? NO. Even if I wish, can I compare them in a given birth? Must be NOT. As they proclaim, you will be following one or the other pAth in a given birth. Or if they say that after completing certain period of time, You can taste through other pAths, then down-the-line I will sure know all the pAths as well. Either case, no need to worry for me, as long as I am following my Guru closely, and cognitively. Focused on your goal. fuse confusions to consciousness. Thus refuse confusion. infuse conscious. fuse to the Guru's pAth, as that is 'The Science' to know thyself. svarUpa nirUpaNa hEtavE svaguravE namaH. OM aiM hrIM SrIM SrImAtrE namOnnamaH SrIM. prasAda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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