Guest guest Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 >we are living in an earthly space and gender bias and sexual >differentiation exist at every realm of society and even Shakthi is >not spared. Yes, humans have a way of distorting things! If you are interested in tracking this dynamic, you will get a lot out of David Kinsley's Tantric Visions of the Divine Feminine: the Ten Mahavidyas, UC Berkeley Press, 1997. He goes into a whole series of stories in which Shakti resists being thrust into subordinate roles, acts out female sovereignty, or demonstrates her potency and omnipresence to Shiva. "Many of the Mahavidyas seem to mock the pativrata ideal and to present an alternative social role that is almost its exact opposite." These tales assert that truth and justice trump man-made hierarchies. Max -- Max Dashu Suppressed Histories Archives Global Women's History http://www.suppressedhistories.net Paintings of bold and spirited women http://www.maxdashu.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 There you are priya. Another set of books for you to read on. I have several collections of David Kinsley's book including the one mention by Max. Now you understand why its best for you to come to KL. , Max Dashu <maxdashu wrote: > > >we are living in an earthly space and gender bias and sexual > >differentiation exist at every realm of society and even Shakthi is not spared. > > Yes, humans have a way of distorting things! > > If you are interested in tracking this dynamic, you will get a lot > out of David Kinsley's Tantric Visions of the Divine Feminine: the > Ten Mahavidyas, UC Berkeley Press, 1997. He goes into a whole series > of stories in which Shakti resists being thrust into subordinate > roles, acts out female sovereignty, or demonstrates her potency and > omnipresence to Shiva. "Many of the Mahavidyas seem to mock the > pativrata ideal and to present an alternative social role that is > almost its exact opposite." These tales assert that truth and justice > trump man-made hierarchies. > > Max > -- > Max Dashu > Suppressed Histories Archives Global Women's History > http://www.suppressedhistories.net > Paintings of bold and spirited women > http://www.maxdashu.net > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Hi I have that book and you are indeed very right! thanks priya , Max Dashu <maxdashu wrote: > > Priya wrote: > >we are living in an earthly space and gender bias and sexual > >differentiation exist at every realm of society and > >even Shakthi is > >not spared. > > Yes, humans have a way of distorting things! > > If you are interested in tracking this dynamic, you will get a lot > out of David Kinsley's Tantric Visions of the Divine Feminine: the > Ten Mahavidyas, UC Berkeley Press, 1997. [....] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 Dear Priya If i have understood you right your question is also concernend with the historic development of Shaktism, since the order of the quoted scriptures seem to suggest a timeline pointing to more acceptance of the importance of devi during the course of time. I dont think this reflects actual facts though one can come to this conclusion basing the judgement on literary evidence. But to understand the historical development of the status of the goddess compared with the male gods, it is insufficent to rely on the shastras only. Only a small percentage of the inhabitants of India cared about writing, the majority did not, and these who did care came from a specific strata of society only, they were mainly involved in an aniconic worship of prominently male deities, with a few female exceptions that slipped through the system, but these female deity were in an inferior position. That is why the evidence in the shastras only mirrors the prevailing state, in that historic moment, of the acceptance or non acceptance of shakti in this learnend community only, and does not indicate the role of shakti in all the differing strata of society. We do not know what the majority of the simpler people where occupied with on the basis of the evidence provided in the shastras, even if we would consider all of them (much less can we judge the historical timeline from the few examples you mentionend) Scriptural evidence seems to indicate that the godess is a late addition to the indian pantheon or at least rose to prominence at a later date, while archeological evidence and survey of the still existing traditions that are transmitted orally and by diverse customs, shows that the iconic worship of the goddess in India originated from earlier neolithic traditions and it seems to be a considerably more widespread common human heritage, the Indians shared with at least the early iranian sumerian and maybe other inhabitants of western asia. It is only that the worship of the male aniconic gods was more widesprad in that community that transmitted the written documents that are available to us now. The Cult of the Goddess was never that much embraced by the learnend in India,than by the majority of Asians, neither in the past nor today, that is why the evidence in written documents can only reflect a partial picture of the Goddess. Maybe a picture where she and her role in indian society is not accurately described and maybe she was more prominent in the actual religious practice and life of the majority of the people than it is suggested by her presence in the shastras. There are many people that are not learnend and cannot read or write but that nonetheless transmit vital elements of the goddess religion. Because they are not learned the goddess is teaching them directly and is present amongst them. Here knowledge often is derived from the deity not the shastra or the guru. This is described in an interview, a simple newari woman, a bhakta of Harati Devi says about her way to become a healer: Raj Kumari: [My] guru is Dhana Tatà.(daughter of Harati) After Dhana Tatà came into [mybody], the god explained everything to my mother's brother [pàju]. "This has to be done and that has to be done in this way, and this has to be said", all this was explained to my pàju. Consequently, my pàju has to come every Tuesday and Saturday to offer rice spirit. Everything was explained [like that at that time] ..(…) And if there is anything now to tell, Dhana Tatà says it all to my pàju. (…)Afterwards he repeats it all to me. "Today, [the goddess] Tatà told me this:`Today, you have to follow the rule [niyam] in this way'". That's how it is said."Today, you shouldn't eat this. Today you should only eat fruit. Today you should only drink milk. Today you should eat rice only once", my pàju repeats every detail to me. do not have any other teacher [guru]. Nobody has given a mantra [to me]. Nothing [has been given to me].Shamsher: When you were given the àsan, was there nobody [like a guru]? Raj Kumari: [There was] nobody. Only the mother [Hàratã]. Only Dhana Tatà. Only the mother. (…) I do not have any teacher [guru]. I follow whatever is said by the goddess. Whatever is said [by goddess], I simply follow. I don't know about other things. Hàratã: (the goddess speaking while in the body of raj kumari) We [gods] are not here [on earth] just to give darsana without any reason. [There is a reason] to give darsana in this [distinct and visible] form. Nowadays, in the Iron age [Kaliyuga] children [the people] think, that there is no god, people commit unjustice and ordinary people can't live that way; sin and greed increases [and] thus in order to help those children who suffer, to help others, to give knowledge, to [those who are] uneducated came to speak in a clear form to the children." Chandika (another newari woman healer): "The mothers [goddesses] do not come where there isn't any suffering [dukha]. I have thought a lot [about this]. The mothers come only to places where there is suffering through either sickness, poverty, or any other kind of obstacle". quoted from: (Bhakti und Shakti,Brigitte Merz) I recommend Narendra Nath Bhattarchayas books : "The indian Mother goddess" and "History of the tantric religion" these books consider shastric as well as archeological evidence. Mahahradanatha >Here is my qsn again and I can see Nora has already posted it: Shiva >was seen as supreme in the Svetasvatara Upanishads while in the >Markndeya Purana, Shakthi is glorified and regains her status as the >Supreme Mother Goddess. >Then again in Devi Bhagavata Purana, it marks the ascendancy of >Shakthi into the Puranic genre of Devi, the Goddess as the supreme >matrix." >Which is it? > > > Priya wrote: > > >we are living in an earthly space and gender bias and sexual > > >differentiation exist at every realm of society and > > >even Shakthi is > > >not spared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 , "mahahradanatha" <mahahradanatha wrote: > I recommend Narendra Nath Bhattarchayas books : "The indian Mother > goddess" and "History of the tantric religion" these books consider shastric as well as archeological evidence. > Mahahradanatha Narendra Nath Bhattarchayas another book worth reading for those wanting to get an understanding of the Shaktas: History of the Sakta Religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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