Guest guest Posted March 28, 2006 Report Share Posted March 28, 2006 Dear all, I think this enlightenment and spirituality-business is dangerous and destructive. It leads us away from and destroys what is of vital importance to ourselves, that is, nature. What I mean is that anything we experience, is an experience of nature (or the cosmos). In short, all there is, is nature. Nature is not some external thing. As you are never separate from nature, nature and you are one: it is impossible to say where a human 'ends' and nature/cosmos 'begins'. To ignore/destroy nature is to ignore/destroy humans, to straightjacket nature is to straightjacket yourself, and vice versa. Nature is one. Nature is a (comm)unity and everything that occurs in nature (f.e. a human being) is a form of that (comm)unity. So it's not Shiva, Shakti, (para)Brahma(n), God, Allah, Buddha-nature or whatever other spiritual, mystical, or transcendental concept/path that was, is or will be making your day: it all is, has been and will be nature. Hence there is no high and mighty plain of Detachment, Happiness and Bliss where the Enlightened dwell: every one of us is here, in/with nature, as nature. And I assure you, we all suffer tremendously from the wars that are being waged on nature. So instead of searching for ((y)our) Happiness and ((y)our) Enlightenment, we/you should better start minding and fighting for what we are and what we were from the very beginning, viz. nature and her (comm)unity. Notice that, I, that is, nature, am being destroyed while you are searching for Enlightenment. In other words, the search for a Higher State of Being (Enlightenment, Liberation, Extinction) is one of the terrors of the contemporary world. We do not need Enlightenment, we need nature, and we need it now! Other terrors that haunt our world are the terrorism of the Higher Being (cfr. Abrahamic God), the terrorism of the Higher Community/Leader(s) (cfr. states, kingdoms), and the terrorism of the Higher Reason (cfr. Western Enlightened Reason). The terrorism of the Higher Being (God) turns humans into creatures of this Being on a mission to spread His Message and Love. This is a very tough terrorism as it is purely rooted in the belief in this Being, whose existence can not be proven or disproven. The terrorism of the Higher Reason (cfr. Western Enlightened Reason) turns humans into civilised, developed people who (are made to) believe in the High/Developed value of democratic states, science, industry,.. with all the political, economic, industrial, (neo)colonial, social, cultural, ecological consequences thereof. The terrorism of the Higher Community/Leader(s) (states, kingdoms) turns people into subjects, civilians or followers who (are made to) believe that this Higher Community/Leader(s) is more important than their own natural (comm)unity. The terrorism of the Higher State of Being (Enlightenment) turns human beings into seekers of spirituality/enlightenment who (are made to) believe that (people with) this Higher State of Being is(are) more important/valuable than (people with) other states of being. All these searches for Higher Goals terrorise/straightjacket human beings. Being ignorant that nature is one, these straightjackets tear nature into pieces (creatures, civilised/developed people, ..) and destroy the (comm)unity of nature. Let's face it: we are not really creatures, civilised/developed people, labour-units, subjects, civilians, followers or spiritual/enlightenment seekers. Let's stop terrorising and straightjacketing ourselves: we are nature!! The goal of nature is not to be holy/divine, civilised, obedient or enlightened, but to live and enjoy her/our (comm)unity/ies. Therefore, we must (learn to) support, conserve and live in/as/with our natural (comm)unity/ies with love and wisdom, and help stopping the denial, straightjacketing and destruction of nature/ourself in the name of some Higher Goal. The only energy/power humans need is not nuclear or electromagnetic, but energy/power that is naturally available. The fusion humans need is not a nuclear fusion, but a fusion of natural/human energies. I wish us the best of luck! Greetings, Jeroen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2006 Report Share Posted March 28, 2006 93 This attitude may help partly in some social problems, but never in internal. When we die, no care about nature helps. We are to go beyond that, to pure consciousness, will and love — and then make these manifest through nature. However what U wrote about God is in fact nonsense. Do not try to mislead people with crooked logic LOL. A , "Jeroen" <sphurna wrote: > > Dear all, > > I think this enlightenment and spirituality-business is dangerous and > destructive. It leads us away from and destroys what is of vital > importance to ourselves, that is, nature. > > What I mean is that anything we experience, is an experience of nature > (or the cosmos). In short, all there is, is nature. Nature is not some > external thing. As you are never separate from nature, nature and you > are one: it is impossible to say where a human 'ends' and > nature/cosmos 'begins'. To ignore/destroy nature is to ignore/destroy > humans, to straightjacket nature is to straightjacket yourself, and > vice versa. Nature is one. > > Nature is a (comm)unity and everything that occurs in nature (f.e. a > human being) is a form of that (comm)unity. > > So it's not Shiva, Shakti, (para)Brahma(n), God, Allah, Buddha-nature > or whatever other spiritual, mystical, or transcendental concept/path > that was, is or will be making your day: it all is, has been and will > be nature. Hence there is no high and mighty plain of Detachment, > Happiness and Bliss where the Enlightened dwell: every one of us is > here, in/with nature, as nature. And I assure you, we all suffer > tremendously from the wars that are being waged on nature. > > So instead of searching for ((y)our) Happiness and ((y)our) > Enlightenment, we/you should better start minding and fighting for > what we are and what we were from the very beginning, viz. nature and > her (comm)unity. > > Notice that, I, that is, nature, am being destroyed while you are > searching for Enlightenment. In other words, the search for a Higher > State of Being (Enlightenment, Liberation, Extinction) is one of the > terrors of the contemporary world. We do not need Enlightenment, we > need nature, and we need it now! > > Other terrors that haunt our world are the terrorism of the Higher > Being (cfr. Abrahamic God), the terrorism of the Higher > Community/Leader(s) (cfr. states, kingdoms), and the terrorism of the > Higher Reason (cfr. Western Enlightened Reason). > > The terrorism of the Higher Being (God) turns humans into creatures of > this Being on a mission to spread His Message and Love. This is a very > tough terrorism as it is purely rooted in the belief in this Being, > whose existence can not be proven or disproven. > The terrorism of the Higher Reason (cfr. Western Enlightened Reason) > turns humans into civilised, developed people who (are made to) > believe in the High/Developed value of democratic states, science, > industry,.. with all the political, economic, industrial, > (neo)colonial, social, cultural, ecological consequences thereof. > The terrorism of the Higher Community/Leader(s) (states, kingdoms) > turns people into subjects, civilians or followers who (are made to) > believe that this Higher Community/Leader(s) is more important than > their own natural (comm)unity. > The terrorism of the Higher State of Being (Enlightenment) turns human > beings into seekers of spirituality/enlightenment who (are made to) > believe that (people with) this Higher State of Being is(are) more > important/valuable than (people with) other states of being. > > All these searches for Higher Goals terrorise/straightjacket human > beings. Being ignorant that nature is one, these straightjackets tear > nature into pieces (creatures, civilised/developed people, ..) and > destroy the (comm)unity of nature. > > Let's face it: we are not really creatures, civilised/developed > people, labour-units, subjects, civilians, followers or > spiritual/enlightenment seekers. Let's stop terrorising and > straightjacketing ourselves: we are nature!! > > The goal of nature is not to be holy/divine, civilised, obedient or > enlightened, but to live and enjoy her/our (comm)unity/ies. > > Therefore, we must (learn to) support, conserve and live in/as/with > our natural (comm)unity/ies with love and wisdom, and help stopping > the denial, straightjacketing and destruction of nature/ourself in the > name of some Higher Goal. > > The only energy/power humans need is not nuclear or electromagnetic, > but energy/power that is naturally available. The fusion humans need > is not a nuclear fusion, but a fusion of natural/human energies. > > > I wish us the best of luck! > > > Greetings, > > > Jeroen > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2006 Report Share Posted March 28, 2006 Dear Jeroen, First of all, please be assured I respect your point of view, and your concerns over nature. But I would ask you, what do you mean exactly by nature? I don't understand "nature is a (comm)unity." And how does one live in nature exclusively, that is, without other human relationships (which is what I read in your comments equating various human relations as types of terrorism)? I for one see nature as a manifestation of the Divine at various levels, and this for me provides an impetus to be protective of nature (as I understand it). Peace, Richard , "Jeroen" <sphurna wrote: > > Dear all, > > I think this enlightenment and spirituality-business is dangerous and > destructive. It leads us away from and destroys what is of vital > importance to ourselves, that is, nature. > > What I mean is that anything we experience, is an experience of nature > (or the cosmos). In short, all there is, is nature. Nature is not some > external thing. As you are never separate from nature, nature and you > are one: it is impossible to say where a human 'ends' and > nature/cosmos 'begins'. To ignore/destroy nature is to ignore/destroy > humans, to straightjacket nature is to straightjacket yourself, and > vice versa. Nature is one. > > Nature is a (comm)unity and everything that occurs in nature (f.e. a > human being) is a form of that (comm)unity. > > So it's not Shiva, Shakti, (para)Brahma(n), God, Allah, Buddha- nature > or whatever other spiritual, mystical, or transcendental concept/path > that was, is or will be making your day: it all is, has been and will > be nature. Hence there is no high and mighty plain of Detachment, > Happiness and Bliss where the Enlightened dwell: every one of us is > here, in/with nature, as nature. And I assure you, we all suffer > tremendously from the wars that are being waged on nature. > > So instead of searching for ((y)our) Happiness and ((y)our) > Enlightenment, we/you should better start minding and fighting for > what we are and what we were from the very beginning, viz. nature and > her (comm)unity. > > Notice that, I, that is, nature, am being destroyed while you are > searching for Enlightenment. In other words, the search for a Higher > State of Being (Enlightenment, Liberation, Extinction) is one of the > terrors of the contemporary world. We do not need Enlightenment, we > need nature, and we need it now! > > Other terrors that haunt our world are the terrorism of the Higher > Being (cfr. Abrahamic God), the terrorism of the Higher > Community/Leader(s) (cfr. states, kingdoms), and the terrorism of the > Higher Reason (cfr. Western Enlightened Reason). > > The terrorism of the Higher Being (God) turns humans into creatures of > this Being on a mission to spread His Message and Love. This is a very > tough terrorism as it is purely rooted in the belief in this Being, > whose existence can not be proven or disproven. > The terrorism of the Higher Reason (cfr. Western Enlightened Reason) > turns humans into civilised, developed people who (are made to) > believe in the High/Developed value of democratic states, science, > industry,.. with all the political, economic, industrial, > (neo)colonial, social, cultural, ecological consequences thereof. > The terrorism of the Higher Community/Leader(s) (states, kingdoms) > turns people into subjects, civilians or followers who (are made to) > believe that this Higher Community/Leader(s) is more important than > their own natural (comm)unity. > The terrorism of the Higher State of Being (Enlightenment) turns human > beings into seekers of spirituality/enlightenment who (are made to) > believe that (people with) this Higher State of Being is(are) more > important/valuable than (people with) other states of being. > > All these searches for Higher Goals terrorise/straightjacket human > beings. Being ignorant that nature is one, these straightjackets tear > nature into pieces (creatures, civilised/developed people, ..) and > destroy the (comm)unity of nature. > > Let's face it: we are not really creatures, civilised/developed > people, labour-units, subjects, civilians, followers or > spiritual/enlightenment seekers. Let's stop terrorising and > straightjacketing ourselves: we are nature!! > > The goal of nature is not to be holy/divine, civilised, obedient or > enlightened, but to live and enjoy her/our (comm)unity/ies. > > Therefore, we must (learn to) support, conserve and live in/as/with > our natural (comm)unity/ies with love and wisdom, and help stopping > the denial, straightjacketing and destruction of nature/ourself in the > name of some Higher Goal. > > The only energy/power humans need is not nuclear or electromagnetic, > but energy/power that is naturally available. The fusion humans need > is not a nuclear fusion, but a fusion of natural/human energies. > > > I wish us the best of luck! > > > Greetings, > > > Jeroen > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2006 Report Share Posted March 29, 2006 May you feeling the blessings of Maa.......then your tune will change! Arjuna Taranandanatha <bhagatirtha wrote: 93 This attitude may help partly in some social problems, but never in internal. When we die, no care about nature helps. We are to go beyond that, to pure consciousness, will and love — and then make these manifest through nature. However what U wrote about God is in fact nonsense. Do not try to mislead people with crooked logic LOL. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2006 Report Share Posted March 29, 2006 93 Regardless of Ur intentions, thank for for Ur wish A , charu jagat <charu_jagat wrote: > > May you feeling the blessings of Maa.......then your tune will change! > > Arjuna Taranandanatha <bhagatirtha wrote: 93 > > This attitude may help partly in some social problems, but never in internal. When we die, no care about nature helps. We are to go beyond that, to pure consciousness, will and love — and then make these manifest through nature. > > However what U wrote about God is in fact nonsense. Do not try to mislead people with crooked logic LOL. > > A > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2006 Report Share Posted March 29, 2006 Dear Richard, Thanks for your interest. Human beings are not separate from nature. Nothing is separate from or other than nature: everything you have ever seen/experienced, see and will see, is (a form of) nature. Even thinking there is something (f.e. a god(dess), a black hole,..) outside nature is a form of nature. Nature is all there is. All there is, is the unity and community of nature and her forms. To live in/as nature does not mean to withdraw from human relationships. Not at all. It does mean (to learn) to live/enjoy the (comm)unity of nature and help stopping the straightjacketing/destruction of nature. Think about how we are polluting, exploiting, robbing, converting nature (humans included!) in the name of Civilisation/Development, Democracy, Human Rights, Free Markets, Religions/Spirituality.. This is all bullshit, dangerous, destructive bullshit. There is nothing but nature. It is high time that we realise this, and that we start living with ourselves (nature) and not as rulers of ourselves (nature). I hope this helps. Greetings, Jeroen , "ksnwcz" <ksnwcz wrote: > > Dear Jeroen, > > First of all, please be assured I respect your point of view, and > your concerns over nature. But I would ask you, what do you mean > exactly by nature? I don't understand "nature is a (comm)unity." And > how does one live in nature exclusively, that is, without other human > relationships (which is what I read in your comments equating various > human relations as types of terrorism)? I for one see nature as a > manifestation of the Divine at various levels, and this for me > provides an impetus to be protective of nature (as I understand it). > > Peace, Richard > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2006 Report Share Posted March 29, 2006 If you would only lose your spiritual straightjacket and see that there is no Maa! It's all nature! Jeroen , charu jagat <charu_jagat wrote: > > May you feeling the blessings of Maa.......then your tune will change! > > Arjuna Taranandanatha <bhagatirtha wrote: 93 > > This attitude may help partly in some social problems, but never in internal. When we die, no care about nature helps. We are to go beyond that, to pure consciousness, will and love — and then make these manifest through nature. > > However what U wrote about God is in fact nonsense. Do not try to mislead people with crooked logic LOL. > > A > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2006 Report Share Posted March 29, 2006 I'm with you. In this universe there are only the five elements. God is space. - Jeroen Wednesday, March 29, 2006 5:06 AM Re: Nothing but nature Dear Richard, Thanks for your interest. Human beings are not separate from nature. Nothing is separate from or other than nature: everything you have ever seen/experienced, see and will see, is (a form of) nature. Even thinking there is something (f.e. a god(dess), a black hole,..) outside nature is a form of nature. Nature is all there is. All there is, is the unity and community of nature and her forms. To live in/as nature does not mean to withdraw from human relationships. Not at all. It does mean (to learn) to live/enjoy the (comm)unity of nature and help stopping the straightjacketing/destruction of nature. Think about how we are polluting, exploiting, robbing, converting nature (humans included!) in the name of Civilisation/Development, Democracy, Human Rights, Free Markets, Religions/Spirituality.. This is all bullshit, dangerous, destructive bullshit. There is nothing but nature. It is high time that we realise this, and that we start living with ourselves (nature) and not as rulers of ourselves (nature). I hope this helps. Greetings, Jeroen , "ksnwcz" <ksnwcz wrote: > > Dear Jeroen, > > First of all, please be assured I respect your point of view, and > your concerns over nature. But I would ask you, what do you mean > exactly by nature? I don't understand "nature is a (comm)unity." And > how does one live in nature exclusively, that is, without other human > relationships (which is what I read in your comments equating various > human relations as types of terrorism)? I for one see nature as a > manifestation of the Divine at various levels, and this for me > provides an impetus to be protective of nature (as I understand it). > > Peace, Richard > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2006 Report Share Posted March 29, 2006 Thanks to God he has got more understanding than U... And in any case, could U have some respect to others' beliefs? That will be natural, no? What is "nature" after all? An unconscious mass of matter organized into meaningless life- forms? Such viewpoint is dull, sad and stupid. If U see nature as integrated Entity, having consciousness and Life per se, it is not far removed from concept of Divine (though in primitive and partial expression). A , "Jeroen" <sphurna wrote: > > If you would only lose your spiritual straightjacket and see that > there is no Maa! > > It's all nature! > > Jeroen > > , charu jagat <charu_jagat@> > wrote: > > > > May you feeling the blessings of Maa.......then your tune will change! > > > > Arjuna Taranandanatha <bhagatirtha@> wrote: 93 > > > > This attitude may help partly in some social problems, but never in > internal. When we die, no care about nature helps. We are to go beyond > that, to pure consciousness, will and love — and then make these > manifest through nature. > > > > However what U wrote about God is in fact nonsense. Do not try to > mislead people with crooked logic LOL. > > > > A > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 Loose your straighjacket first Jeroen. You call 'it' nature, I call it Maa. Happy now ? Jeroen <sphurna wrote: If you would only lose your spiritual straightjacket and see that there is no Maa! It's all nature! Jeroen , charu jagat <charu_jagat wrote: > > May you feeling the blessings of Maa.......then your tune will change! > > Arjuna Taranandanatha <bhagatirtha wrote: 93 > > This attitude may help partly in some social problems, but never in internal. When we die, no care about nature helps. We are to go beyond that, to pure consciousness, will and love � and then make these manifest through nature. > > However what U wrote about God is in fact nonsense. Do not try to mislead people with crooked logic LOL. > > A > Visit your group "" on the web. Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Messenger with Voice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 If you would just open your spiritual eyes you would see that nature is Mataji. It's all One. > > "Jeroen" <sphurna > 2006/03/29 Wed AM 06:55:16 EST > > Re: Nothing but nature > > If you would only lose your spiritual straightjacket and see that there is no Maa! It's all nature! Jeroen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 Jeroen Nature is allright, some of us call her Maa. This is a realization and it has to dawn on you. --- Arjuna Taranandanatha <bhagatirtha wrote: Thanks to God he has got more understanding than U... And in any case, could U have some respect to others' beliefs? That will be natural, no? What is "nature" after all? An unconscious mass of matter organized into meaningless life- forms? Such viewpoint is dull, sad and stupid. If U see nature as integrated Entity, having consciousness and Life per se, it is not far removed from concept of Divine (though in primitive and partial expression). A , "Jeroen" <sphurna wrote: > > If you would only lose your spiritual straightjacket and see that > there is no Maa! > > It's all nature! > > Jeroen > > , charu jagat <charu_jagat@> > wrote: > > > > May you feeling the blessings of Maa.......then your tune will change! > > > > Arjuna Taranandanatha <bhagatirtha@> wrote: 93 > > > > This attitude may help partly in some social problems, but never in > internal. When we die, no care about nature helps. We are to go beyond > that, to pure consciousness, will and love — and then make these > manifest through nature. > > > > However what U wrote about God is in fact nonsense. Do not try to > mislead people with crooked logic LOL. > > > > A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 Jeroen Your piece on 'nothing but nature' is excellent but full of specious arguments -- like Satan's when he actively advocated eating of the fruit to Eve -- flawed in basic logic. You say every thing is nature. Yeah, that's true. Who is disputing that. We call it prakrti. Then you start bullcrapping God, Maa, spirituality etc. In the same breath you want all of us live with nature, naturally etc., What do you exactly mean by living with nature. Animals live with nature, their main occupation is searching for food, mating for reproduction and dying. Do you want us to be like that. Then even writing the piece you did was unnatural. You talk of organised religions straightjacketing its practitioners. Agreed. But not spirituality. Spirituality has nothing to do with religion. Spirituality is the natural effort that swells up from deep within in quest of liberation and not straightjacketing. Are you an athiest? Are you agnostic? Are you an existentialist? These all are straightjackets in one way or the other. Either you are mistaken in your perception of what nature is or yuo are deliberately trying to mislead others. There is no cogency in your arguments other than bullcrapping god etc. Please make it clear what living in nature, living in (comm)unity etc are, how we should go abuot it so that imbeciles like me can illuminated and enlightened. JR Jeroen <sphurna wrote: If you would only lose your spiritual straightjacket and see that there is no Maa! It's all nature! Jeroen , charu jagat <charu_jagat wrote: > > May you feeling the blessings of Maa.......then your tune will change! > > Arjuna Taranandanatha <bhagatirtha wrote: 93 > > This attitude may help partly in some social problems, but never in internal. When we die, no care about nature helps. We are to go beyond that, to pure consciousness, will and love — and then make these manifest through nature. > > However what U wrote about God is in fact nonsense. Do not try to mislead people with crooked logic LOL. > > A > Visit your group "" on the web. Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Messenger with Voice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 , charu jagat <charu_jagat wrote: > > Jeroen Nature is allright, some of us call her Maa. Why call me Maa or Shakti, if I am nothing but nature? Jeroen This is a realization and it has to dawn on you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 93 After all, "nature" is a word and "Shakti" is a word. Nature is Prakriti in sanskrit, which is an epithet of Goddess . While shakti means energy — U may view it is phisics' sense also. There is no problem thus A , "Jeroen" <sphurna wrote: > > , charu jagat <charu_jagat@> > wrote: > > > > Jeroen Nature is allright, some of us call her Maa. > > > Why call me Maa or Shakti, if I am nothing but nature? > > > Jeroen > > > This is a realization and it has to dawn on you. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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