learning ashtanga

[Guest guest]

I have been to some yoga classes, but my practice

of ashtanga is basically self taught. I started out

with the Power Yoga book by Birch a few months ago. I

also have her 45 min beginners tape. I just got the

Short Forms video from Dave Swenson, plus his nicely

presented large manual.It is interesting that there are

differences in the beginner modifications in the two 45

minute sessions. Does anyone have any opinions on

this?<br>I am hoping to work up to the full primary series

in the next few weeks/months.I seem to be a long way

from headstand, have to modify shoulder stand a lot,

and having trouble with plow. I may need to use a

chair.<br>Will I ever be able to do vinyasa by jumping rather

than my pathetic rolling over my legs?I am a 45 yr old

male, inflexible from years of biking.<br>I agree with

the past comments about breathing. we all have to

find our own rythm.<br>There are Bikram classes in my

area. How does this form of yoga compare to ashtanga?

[Guest guest]

You'll find some similarities between Ashtanga (a

led class anyway) and Bikram. In a Bikram class

you'll also do a series of postures--the same ones every

time. The classes start with a breathing exercise then

start right into a series of standing postures that

are, in my opinion, much more challenging (physically)

than the standing Ashtanga postures, but much easier

(also physically) to make "progress" on. The second

half of the class consists of seated and other floor

postures; a brief savasana is done between each one. There

are no inversions, no headstands or shoulderstands,

etc. in Bikram. The sequence is intended to be

suitable to all levels of practice. There are more

challenging variations to some asanas, but there are none

that can't be done by a beginner. <br><br> Heat is

important to Bikram, as with Ashtanga, but they go about it

a different way--the heat in the room is generally

cranked up to 80-90 degrees, or even higher. You sweat

like crazy and can stretch like crazy too. Some people

love the heat, but I never took to it much. There is

something to be said for the purifying cleansing feeling of

all the sweating, but for me it takes away some

important feedback about my practice. With Ashtanga, I get

warm if I breathe and bandha--that is, with

concentration and awareness. In the hot room I can stretch

really deeply while I think about what I'm going to have

for dinner. <br><br>Anything else I could say about

Bikram would be less about Bikram in general and more

about my experience in particular. My Ashtanga teachers

have studied yoga for a long time and are very

experienced and knowledgeable; my Bikram teachers were not

(they didn't even have a personal practice); this no

doubt contributes to my fondness for Ashtanga over

Bikram. I liked my Bikram classes--they were fun and made

me feel good in the way that a great workout

does--but I get alot more from, and want to put alot more

into, my Ashtanga practice.<br><br>Its not hard to get

certified to teach Bikram--I'll bet that the character of

the class varies greatly by teacher, depending on

what else they bring to their teaching. Classes in

your area could be great, or...<br><br>vita

[Guest guest]

What are the differences between BBB's and

Swenson's modifications? I can't tell if you mean

differences in modifying an asana, or the whole series (like

removing certain poses). Either way, I'm curious ...

<br><br>christina

[Guest guest]

I don't have either book in front of me, but as I

recall the most important difference is that BBB

completely misses out parts of the practice without even

mentioning that she is doing so, whereas David gives the

full series plus modifications for

everything.<br><br>(... an approach which he carries on right through his

book and tapes all the way through second and into

third series, until somewhere in third series where he

finally says something like "you should be able to do leg

behind head fairly easily by now" and stops showing leg

over shoulder variations.)<br><br>Personally I prefer

David's approach - I would rather know what I should be

doing, than have "hard bits" not even mentioned. But I

wouldn't write BBB's book off completely - I haven't

looked at it for ages, but I found it useful when I

first got it and had only been practicing a few

months.<br><br>I will point out before SPW does that both BBB and

David are trying to make the practice more accessible,

in different ways. Both therefore differ from the

completely rigorous purist school of thought: do everything

properly, and don't move on until you can. <br><br>But

then, what is doing something "properly", and when does

a modification change what an asana is? I would say

that, for example, holding your shins instead of your

feet in a forward bend if that's as far as you can

reach ISN'T a modification - you're doing exactly the

same thing as somebody who can reach their toes with

their elbows, just to less depth - albeit probably with

more effort! <br><br>On the other hand, I personally

find the "modification" a lot of people teach to

marichysana b & d without the half lotus a waste of time. It

is a completely different asana and as far as I can

see only serves ego gratification purposes - "look, I

can wrap my arms and get my nose on the floor too".

It completely evades the real issue in these asanas

- which for me is the long, slow, patient work of

trying to open the hip, knee and ankle of the half lotus

leg.<br><br>Oops, another long rambling post. Where does that leave

us? BBB misses stuff out without saying so, which is

wrong. David Swenson includes everything with

modifications. Some modifications don't change the fundamental

character of an asana. A few do - and are therefore wrong.

("Wrong" means different from my opinion of how things

shoud be done)

[Guest guest]

Hi alan and everyone else:<br><br>RE:

bbb/swenson's modifications ... this was the impression I got,

that BBB had removed poses from the series. When I

heard of the new book called Beyond Power Yoga, that it

introduced the 8 limbs, I thought, "oh, I thought that's

what was in the other book". I have only really

flipped through these books at the bookstore; I haven't

really read them too extensively. <br><br>Swenson's book

at least gives several modifications for each pose

and doesn't leave any out. I bought it because I

wanted a lay out of the whole thing. I think I noticed

on the Amazon website that some who bought his book

were pissed because they feel that they were misled..

"this isn't Power Yoga!"<br><br>But anyway .. I'd

rather do than read, even though it's fun to look at the

pictures.<br><br>I also agree that the benefits of some asana aren't

really achieved by some "modifications" ... Marichyasana

B&D are very good examples. I think that the best

thing to do there is to work on the half lotus first,

and if that's all you can do in that pose, then

that's all you can do. There is a point to those poses

having the half lotus, which you may not see right when

you're starting out.<br><br>In some classes, though,

they are left out because of time, or because the

teacher knows he/she has people who are too new or

something like that. Different people are rigid or flexible

in different directions, weirdly enough. Or they

have the strength but not the flexibility or vice

versa. Or they're reed thin but can't touch their toes,

or ... shall we say ... Reubenesque but can get

their head to the floor ... stuff like that. <br><br>My

point is that the modifications are great when you're

starting because you can see as much of the Primary series

as possible and it doesn't seem to be perched atop a

steep cliff. Some parts here and there might be

unfinished, but you're always working on them. I think there

are many people who try Ashtanga to see what it's all

about and then maybe give up or lose interest. Those

who decide to keep going seem to pick up rather

quickly that things are done in a certain order for

certain reasons, and that's the whole point, and that's

why you have to learn it this way. <br><br>I don't

particularly get all het up at the "power yoga" concept, but I

do feel it often crosses the line between

modifcation for learning's sake vs. modification for

gratification's sake. <br><br>Christina

[Guest guest]

I know B&T as well as anyone and also know what

was going on through the drafts of "Power Yoga".

These two teachers had studied extensively w/ Guruji in

California previously and began teaching ashtanga afterwards

in 88 or 89. Their base of students was large with

many not of the mind to practice the full ashtanga

practice. They both worked very hard at their own

practices, Thom had some limitations due to years of 100+

mile weeks of running. What he lacked in flexibility,

he made up for in effort. Beryl worked at her level

which was working through the primary and a good deal

of the intermediate series. The point? Power Yoga

was never meant to be the end all for the series. It

was an attempt to bring 99% of the ashtanga practice

to a book market. At the time of publication,

Ashtanga would not sell at a national level by it's name

alone. So, it is what it is. I can't speak for how T&B

have conducted their affairs since then.<br><br>David

Swenson and I started this practice at the same time

studying w/ David W and his wonderful wife at the time,

Nancy Gilgoff. We went to the airport together to pick

up the Guru on his 1st visit to the states. Since

then David has probably done at least 94,900 sun signs

along with all the series taught by the Guru. A little

variation on the theme is David's right. I myself do not

belive in the modifications, but for any less

experienced student to 2nd guess David's motives is out of

place. <br><br>Each student is responsible for their

destiny in this practice. If you want 100% pure uncut

Ashtanga, good for you, there are places to get it. If you

want to learn from a master like Manju or David W,

they may teach you things you will not grasp for some

time to come. And that teaching may be in the form of

a modification not shown in any book or video.

Accept it and grow.<br><br>Yours in yoga.

[Guest guest]

Takeitup, whoever you are, I really appreciate

and value somebody of your experience contributing to

this forum. I'm always pleased to log on and see

something from you. I read your posting about Pattabhi

Jois' teaching style this morning, and I found it a a

really valuable contribution to one of the most

interesting discussions I've ever seen here. (I've never

studied with Guruji - I hope to either in France this

summer or Mysore next spring, or both. But I've been

worried by some of the rumours I've heard about Mysore

injuries, and I think it's good to see this openly

discussed)<br><br>But I objected very strongly to one your comments

last week regarding modifications in books - "for any

less experienced student to 2nd guess David's motives

is out of place". Open discusson of ideas and

opinions is never out of place. You seem to be suggesting

that less experienced people have no business having

an opinion about anything more experienced people

say; and that only people who know the authors

personally are qualified to comment on books. <br><br>I

think both David Swenson's and Beryl Bender Birch's

books are good and useful. I also think that people who

choose to publish books would be foolish not to expect

some degree of being publicly discussed, praised,

criticised - even second guessed. It comes with the

territory.<br><br>I have great respect for David Swenson's yoga

experience. I met him recently at a workshop and I think he's

a really nice guy too - I said so here, in response

to somebody who asked what I thought of the

workshop. But that doesn't mean I'm going to venerate him

as some kind of yoga saint. I didn't believe in

blind obedience to authority before I started to

practice yoga. I don't intend to start now.

[Guest guest]

Alan:<br><br>Re-read the whole sentence you

partially quoted and the last paragraph of my earlier post.

<br><br>Discrimination is an integral part of our practice and that

includes being smart enough to question a teacher's

teaching style and personality then turning around and

walking out of their classroom if it is not what you need

or want. Be that because a teacher is not strictly

adhering to Sri KP's methods or any other reason.

<br><br>Guruji slammed Power Yoga and T & B. He certainly had

his opinion and right to air it in Yoga Journal.

However, I know there are many "traditional" Ashtanga

students who were introduced to the practice via that

book. You will encounter many apparent conflicts in our

system as you progress and travel through the Ashtanga

world. Your discrimination may be the only guide you

have as to the path to follow or believe. <br><br>My

point was that David has earned the right to teach in

his own style and that right is beyond

question.<br><br>I reserve veneration for Guruji, my parents and my

wife.<br><br>Good luck with your practice!

[Guest guest]

Live without judgement.<br>This is a great

example of how to follow<br>a path without

judgement...<br>exercising "discrimination" is a little like<br>judgement,

but it's different.<br>I'm eager to learn

this.<br>Maybe "yielding" is a good term to meditate.

[Guest guest]

with repect to Tukan's comments. Although I have

not learned this directly, the Short Forms seem to be

geared to beginners. For example, the 30 session seems

slower than the 45 minute one, and Mr Swenson spends

more time explaining things and showing beginner asana

modifications. If they were specifically meant for more

expericnced practitioners, the pace might be faster and no

modifications would be explained. I like the 45 minute routine

as it is helping me build stamina to finally

complete the primary series.<br>Alan