Keeping a system pure

[Guest guest]

The debate on this venue regarding keeping a

system pure (vs those that are glad that something

outside the pure system exists in order to make yoga more

accessable)is definitely relevant, neccessary and profoundly

thought provoking. I haven't commented on this issue

before because it is a truly deep topic (apart from the

I'm right you're wrong bickering which is

occasionally funny on a good day.)<br>One thing that seems a

tragedy is that a modified version is taught in some

venues and is called ashtanga yoga, but never is the

truth offered to the students: that this is not the

real ashtanga yoga as opposed to what ashtanga vinyasa

is in its traditional form; how profound it is when

studied in its traditional sequence; and where they can

go for this knowledge. At least this would empower

them to know where to seek the traditional version if

they thirst for more. Some of these people who have

only studied this diluted form as "ashtanga yoga" have

gone on, in addition to their own fitness classes, to

teach ashtanga yoga not having a clue that they don't

know what they don't know. That is way people freak

out about this -this is how full systems

disappear!<br><br>I still feel frustrated that there are things that

i don't know about ashtanga yoga and don't know how

to find out about it, because everything is not

recorded. Point in case: why alignment is not emphasised.

Recently someone made a comment about<br>that in this club

which was enlightening. <br>It also took me a really

long to find out about the lady's holidays (3 years).

At that point i don't think there was an official

website... and i also had no way to find out what the big

deal was about Mysore and how profound it is to meet

the 'father' of ashtanga yoga. And had to trudge my

way there somewhat blindly. I would love to know how

Guruji taught when he was young - i hear some old hands

talk about this but they don't want to chat to someone

who doesn't know - they reminisce with their

contemporaries.<br>So if you out there have things to share that

unlocks the subtleties of this practice - please pour it

out. Please educate me. (I pick up things from

workshops but some of these retreats cost $1200 a

pop.)<br><br>Actually some of you more prolific contributers could

write this book. SPW -but you would need a good

editor!<br><br>Sometimes i feel robbed that we cannot communicate with

guruji fully- wouldn't it be great if he had learnt

english in the last 30 years. If there was a local

college teaching that language i'd be taking it. During

my last visit there Guruji was saying that jumping

back between sides was too much (oh yeah, 10 of us

heard it and we made him repeat it 4 times to be able

to believe our ears).Wouldn't you just love to have

guruji clarify that against what is in yoga mala etc in

full english?? He also said pranayama comes after 2nd

series (sorry spw - that contradicts one of your earlier

posts).<br>(And for someone who doubted d. swenson's capability

in a prior post - he was doing pretty scary 3rd

series poses during practice (actually full 3rd

series)at that time.)<br><br>Then the flip side of

traditional is that i personally have benefited tremendously

from prep poses - having started yoga relatively late,

not being a gymnast or dancer (talk about unfair

advantage)(the type i'd like to have) and having western hips!!!

<br><br>Are some others frustrated about things they learn

too late - things that wasn't easy to get clarity on?

Oh and don'tsay one should ask --if youdon't know

something how can you know that you need to ask?<br>If i

rambled accept my apology - but one thing clear from this

site is that we love yoga man.<br>Thanx for all your

contributions (maybe even those that contribute too often just

to goof off with not much too offer - hint: cute

names).<br><br>chamoya

[Guest guest]

Ishogun,<br><br>Thanks for bringing up the

martial arts parallel. I was also thinking of doing

so.<br><br>I remember once I was at a competition organised by

the karate school I was studying with. It was

supposed to be an "open" event but there were actually

very few people from other disciplines there. One of

the "outsiders" entered the kata competition, and did

something nobody recognised, but clearly with a high level

of focus and "ki" in his practice. And because it

looked nothing like what we did, some of the students

watching laughed. A very senior teacher who was present

was furious, threatened to throw the students out and

publicly apologised to the guy for their rudeness and

small-mindedness.<br><br>I think there are interesting parallels between

martial arts and yoga. Martial arts comes in a wide

variety of different styles and forms of practice. Some

of the promoters of these different styles and

disciplines are self-publicists and charlatans, some are the

real thing with decades of humble practice and

dedicaton behind them. Interestingly, and seemingly unlike

yoga, nobody seems to have difficulty reconciling

ancient traditions with new and changing manifestations

of those traditions developed by modern masters.

<br><br>Most authentic senior teachers are very rigorous about

the qualifications of teachers of "their" style - I

wouldn't suggest it was any easier to get a second dan

black belt in shotokan karate than it is to convince

guruji you can do the astanga intermediate series

adequately. (Note - I don't claim to have got anywhere near

doing either of those things). But - which is the point

of my example above - they also don't go around

denigrating other authentic and sincere forms of practice or

pretending theirs is the "one true path".

[Guest guest]

Yes, I do believe as well that there are quite a

few parallels between martial arts and

yoga.<br><br>M. Uyeshiba (the founder of Aikido) is considered to

be one of the greatest martial artists who ever

lived. It's interesting to me that his teacher was, by

many accounts, an ill-tempered charlatan that his

chief student surpassed in light-years in budo and

spirituality. However, Uyeshiba always gave his teacher the

utmost respect and veneration until his

death.<br><br>The currently popular Brazillian Jiu-jitsu grew out

of Japanese martial arts and has far surpassed the

mat techniques of the old styles still taught in

Japan. Because the Brazillian's favored efficiency over

codified tradition, innovation and progress was the

inevitable result.

[Guest guest]

Liked your response. I had entirely forgot about

the example of Uyeshiba and aikido.

Thanks.<br><br>However, to play devils advocate, both Bruce Lee and

Uyeshiba named their martial art something else in order

to differentiate them from the styles they built

upon.<br><br>Respectfully,<br><br>ishogun

[Guest guest]

It's interesting to compare Aikido and Brazillian

Jiu-jitsu as they've grown out of Japanese Jiu-jitsu. The

Brazillian Jiu-jitsu schools I've checked out did not

include budo or spirituality in any way and were purely

focused on combat effectiveness. The Aikido schools I've

studied at on the other hand placed great emphasis on

budo and the ethical responsibilities of the student

at the expense of some combat effectiveness. It

looks like Ashtanga and its offshoots may be diverging

along similar lines in their emphases.

[Guest guest]

Mmm, I see your point...I'd just add that, to me,

both systems have their own notions of tradition and

"spirituality" (whatever that is, exactly). While the BJJ people

don't do ki breathing and such, I was very impressed

with the friendly sincerity of their practice halls,

very alive and enlivening (to me, that's spiritual).

They make their own budo from the practice itself,

which they take very seriously.<br><br>Perhaps the same

can be said of any practice hall where you leave your

sweat (and blood) behind, and are pushed to your limits

-- spirit is there in the practice; outer form is

secondary.

[Guest guest]

When I read the posts about keeping the system

pure I am reminded of the current, and in my opinion

tragic, story about the Martha Graham Company. The

gentleman (whose name I cannot recall at this instant, and

many would not stretch so far as to call him a

gentleman) with whom she left the 'rights' to her work has

refused to cooperate with the artistic side of the

company and has witheld all legal access to the work

until they let him do what he wants to do. The company

and school have now closed and there is some kind of

ikky battle going on over the rights to her

choreography. A whole bunch of dancers are out of work and the

school, I'm not sure what's going on there. So if this

guy does what he wants the Graham technique will

still exist and is being taught at countless schools

and institutions. Also, the impact of her infuence,

felt far and wide in and beyond the dance world cannot

be changed, bought, sold or traded. So what does

this all mean to and for yoga? I'm not sure, really.

It is true that when you mix people with a spiritual

practice or an artistic practice, greed, ego, projections,

and interperatation all enter when money is involved

and corruption is inevitable. People are complicated.

The system is simple and the principles will always

remain intact. As ashtanga practicioners we are lucky

because Pattabhi Jois is alive and Sharath is young and

we can always go to the source.<br>Anyway, I have to

to go teach my "Power Graham" class now. Have you

heard of it? It is a dance technique based completely

on the Martha Graham system especially for modern

Americans who don't really want to learn to dance but want

all of the benefits. (OK, that was obnoxious, but you

get my point.)<br><br>Trinka