ageing and ashtanga

[Guest guest]

Betty,<br>Give us a break. You are not that

old.<br>WHY are you asking a bunch of complete strangers if

you should put your les behind your head? For

starters, get a good, qualified instructor and ASK THEM. If

your body can do it, your body can do

it.<br><br>"Healthy and Realistic" ?<br><br>Stop asking strangers

what your body is capable of. If you want to do a

pose, then you will do it. If you don't want to do a

pose, you don't have to.<br><br>PURE

[Guest guest]

drop the attitude, "pure."<br>betty, i'm only

slightly younger than you and have asked myself the same

question, but i've found that slow, steady progress through

achy hips can be made with regular practice. i

practice regularly next to a 70-year-old woman whose supta

kurmasana is just dandy.

[Guest guest]

thanks eden, and yes drop the attitude 'pure,' As I said I was merely thinking

outloud.. Jeeze what is it about this board that brings out the 'holier than

thou' attitude?

[Guest guest]

If you do ever get supta kurmasana....please let

us know so you can inspire others!!!!!!! I have

gotten this pose only occasionally with aid and hope to

soon be able to do it by

myself......hope........hope.......hope. But i must remind myself that is not

what my

practice is about........I sometimes wonder if I'll be

doing ashatanga in a nursing home? Guruji

stopped.......Sometimes there seems to be a yoga babe culture that must

be worked through for say a woman who is in another

stage/age of life.

[Guest guest]

Hi bettyinabottle-<br>go for it all - so many

people don't discover the practice until their 40s. just

work slowly, and not so much for the final posture.

it's funny how that when you stop thinking about the

"final place" you want to reach, it suddenly arrives.

and then you figure out all the other stuff you still

have left....<br>good luck

[Guest guest]

"These people are not able to 'do' these amazing

asanas because they set out to do them"<br><br>How do

you know this? Maybe they were total yoga-lympics

psychopaths, wildly throwing themselves at asanas day in and

day out, injuring themselves regulary, practicing

through injuries, and starving themselves dangerously.

And after all, isn't that what its all about?

[Guest guest]

Hedblown...you r a star. LOL. five bingo's to you. Namaste x

[Guest guest]

I started from absolute scratch when I was 50,

just 3 months after a full hop replacement. I'm now 52

and doing a practice 6 days a week.<br>Yes, it's

tough when you are older, everything takes three times

as long. And things that the younger ones can do are

impossible - to start with. But as with all yoga and all

practitioners, it's the 5'P's that work: perseverance and

persistance, and practice, practice, practice.<br><br>I wish I

could persuade more of my contemporaries to start. So

many use their age as an excuse.<br><br>BTW Betty, if

you want to have an off-conference discussion about

the particular problems of ashtanga for elders,

please email me: annie

[Guest guest]

Annie<br><br>I'm assuming that you mean ' a full

hip replacement'. This is very interesting as well as

encouraging as I have had students who have had hip

replacements and not continued their yoga practice for fear of

damaging the artificial joint and because their mobility

was much less than before. Now I know what to tell

them.<br><br>Thanks<br><br>j4a<br><br>P.S. There may be some use for this club

after all.

[Guest guest]

Yes :-) I meant full HIP replacement!<br><br>I am

very happy to discuss my experiences out of conference

if any of your students is interested

(annie). <br>Basically, I ignored the hospital physio's

advice. She was horrified that I was considering starting

yoga. But it has been wonderful - strengthening the

operated side, restoring pathways, re-balancing me after

years of being lop-sided. <br>Mind you, it has not been

without some pain (sometimes intense and persistent) as

the joints re-align, and there are some asanas and

movements which I will not do for fear of dislocation.

<br>But there is no risk of 'damage to the new joint'. On

the contrary, the damage to the body caused by this

major operation is healed more quickly through regular

yoga, IME.<br><br>Sometimes it has been hard to

differentiate between the challenge of starting Ashtanga

post-op and post-50 ! But it still comes down to the same

old maxim: persistence, perseverence and practice,

practice, practice!

[Guest guest]

Hi Annie,<br><br>I would be interested in a

discussion on aging within this forum if you and others are

too. I think a lot of us are thinking about the role

yoga should play in our lives as we age. I just turned

35, and wonder whether I will have the stamina to

continue into my 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s at a pace that seems

to be required of Ashtanga students, in particular

because of the emphasis on the sequence of the various

series. I am toying with departing from the sequence in

some spots, and adopting certain modifications as my

body changes, but admit that I have some attachment to

the idea of completing the series without

modifications. I would love to hear how others have addressed

these issues in their own practices over time. Yoga

Journal did an article on aging this month, but I didn't

particularly find the discussion regarding my age group

applicable, since they interviewed a woman who was preparing

for childbirth. Having done all that, I am really

more focused on building a full practice safely, in

the limited time that I have when I am fortunate

enough to have childcare (which raises a completely

different topic that is also of interest to me, i.e., how

does one practice 6 days a week for an hour and a half

when you work full-time and have a toddler?) Are there

others who would benefit from such a

discussion?<br><br>P.S. Regarding my name - I am not related to Patty

Hearst, although if I were, it wouldn't be so bad, since

I would probably be very wealthy. <br>Although I

have seen a lifetime of chiding, I kind of like my

name; it's easy for people to

remember!<br><br>Namaste,<br><br>Patti

[Guest guest]

Hello. I've recently joined your club and I've

had a layoff from yoga since 1987. At that point, I

was where you are now. I did not take my layoff

because I had a choice. Both of my parents were on their

final journeys. My mother had alzheimer's and my father

dementia. I cared for them alone and without any help. The

price I paid was the stopping of all physical activity,

including the yoga and running. When my parents finally

departed, I had gone from excellent fitness, 158 lbs, and a

5k/day runner to 380 lbs, hypertensive, and diabetic. I

have managed since that time to struggle against

depression, medications and gaining aging. It is the hardest

battle of my life; harder, than caring for aging and

dying parents. The road back is filled with hearbreaks,

setbacks, etc., through it all I have never given up

getting back to my starting point. Picture this, at 35

you are on a descending slope and if I understand

your intro you want let up or even abandon what you

are doing now. Don't. Everything gets harder from

this point on. Excuses become easier and your descent

on the slope may become faster. Do not envision

doing nothing and having no consequence. Envision, if I

stop, I slide. If I do not maintain, I slide downward.

If I modify my routine and slow down, I will slide

regardless, simply by definition of where I am at the moment.

Therefore, I still slide. How far? How fast? It depends on

the extent of your modifications. Try to rework your

schedule around your health priorities. My name? I took

that name from a high school nickname I got when I ran

track. I hated it. But I trained harder and ran harder

because of it. Namaste.

[Guest guest]

One thing I think is for sure, if our point of

view is on decline, loss, what-i-don't-have and so

forth, there is no point to this yoga. We're just on a

futile negative exercise of frustration and

perfectionism. It's so much better, so essential, to look at

this practice as a precious gift for TODAY. If we

extend positive energy we immediately get positive

energy back! If we give energy, prana, ki to others, to

our practice, to God or the Universe it is instantly

reciprocated. We feel it, others feel it and respond, and the

Universe itself responds. Sounds too spacy? Try it, it's

very real.<br><br><br>Anyone can come back from

depression, being out of shape, being overweight, being

stiff, injuries. I've done it. Back from chronic abuse

of alchohol (long time ago, but still), food (i was

quite overweight when I started at 38), tobacco (smoked

2 packs a day), injuries (too many to name). The

key is having others to practice with and showing up

at the shala as much as possible. Time invested per

day is only 1/10th, which really isn't much. Set

goals and write them down on paper, give them up to the

Universe, and you will meet them.

[Guest guest]

yoga nidra congratulations! you are an inspiration...

[Guest guest]

I am surprised that you are concerned about

stamina at aged 35 - you are a young thing! Some days, I

find I have good stamina, sometimes it seems to have

seeped away somehow - the spirit is often willing but

the body ain't!<br><br>I already do an amended

practice - normal primary until Navasana, then a series of

other asanas, some borrowed from later in Primary, some

from Secondary (gasp, shock, horror!)<br>Then I go

into a finishing sequence, but I'm still trying to

master the headstand - I never could do it, even as a

kid.<br>My practice takes about 1 hour 40.<br><br>Yes, I

think there is a place for an amended primary series,

but I wouldn't dream of expecting it to become

'official'. I just use common sense and do those poses which

I like and I know do me good, between Navasana and

the finishing sequence. <br><br>I supose that's not

very purist of me.

[Guest guest]

I have to agree with Annie in terms of worrying

about aging at 35. If you are already worried, you may

have many many years of it ahead of you. I hate that

our culture has influenced 35-year-olds to stew over

the decline of the body and of achievement and so on.

There are gains that come with aging--life is always

good and bad, yin and yang. My yoga teacher is 20

years older than myself and is well beyond me in terms

of physical practice. But I see people of all ages

growing around me in terms of the actual poses and in

terms of meditation in the asanas. And remember, at 75,

35 will seem really young.

[Guest guest]

It is curious anyway, this discussion about

ageing on a board concerned with yoga. I always thought

that in yoga it really doesn't matter how old you are,

since it's all about self-realisation; it is NOT some

sort of competition in physical prowess. Or is anyone

here interested in taking part in the Olympic Games?

[Guest guest]

Funny you should mention the Olympics. <br>Has

anyone else heard of the Yoga Olympics, last held in

South America somewhere, I think.<br><br>As I

understand it, many categories including Sports Yoga and

many judging criteria. <br><br>Anyone know anything

about it?

[Guest guest]

<"Yes, I think there is a place for an amended

primary series, but I wouldn't dream of expecting it to

become 'official'. I just use common sense and do those

poses which I like and I know do me good, between

Navasana and the finishing sequence. -A.

Gurton"><br><br>Dear Ms Gurton,<br>It sounds like you have had to deal

with some serious problems - a hip replacement by the

age of 50 and believing you are an "elder" when in

fact, 52 is NOT old by a long shot. It seems you had

the courage, however, to finally come to your senses

and realize that many western medical practicioners

are better at treating symptoms that treating the

actual disease. In fact, that has been the focus of

western medical pratice until only very recently. That

took courage and faith.<br><br>However, the same

pioneering attitude does not hold true in your yoga practice

without deleterious effects. Yoga - especially ashtanga

yoga - can only heal if the student trusts the

practice and studies the correct method. There are very

good reasons why the poses are sequenced as they are.

Skipping around might seem satisfying to you now, but I

promise that in the long term, it will only be harmful.

You should be congratulated for having had the

courage to follow your instincts, but there really is no

place for an "amended" primary series in ashtanga yoga.

If you follow the correct method, there is nothing

in the intermediate series that will do you any good

if you have not mastered the primary series. If you

are doing an "amended" primary series, you are not

doing ashtanga yoga which is fine, just don't fool

yourself into thinking that you are doing anything

remotely realated to what is being taught in

Mysore.<br><br>Also, it is not called "secondary series." It is called

"intermediate, or second series." I might take the position that

if you don't know this, you shouldn't be doing it

because you probably aren't ready.<br><br>Here is

something Missy Pinky wrote a little while

ago:<br><br><"One who waxes poetic on yoga, while his or her

practice fluctuates according to personal whims and

vaguaries, is not yet on the path. To those folks missy says

"face up, admit it - I am standing alongside the path,

but I just don't have the courage, the discipline,

the desire - yet..." Or go ahead, be a great

pretender, but you are only fooling

yourself."><br><br>FBL

[Guest guest]

Hi Everyone, <br><br>I wonder how Guruji's

practice has changed over time. He seems to me to be a

living example of a path to follow as we age. Given his

emphasis in Yoga Mala on performing the asanas in the

correct sequence, I suppose it is possible that his

approach has been to drop asanas from the end of the

practice as he ages. I thought it was interesting that in

Yoga Mala he wrote: "For the middle aged, it is best

to do all the asanas. The more they are practised,

the stronger the body becomes, and obstacles such as

disease cease to be a problem. ... For the very old,

however, who find the practice of Sarvangasana, Halasana,

Uttanapadasana, Shirshasana, and Padmasana too difficult, it is

enough to practice mahabandha daily, as well as rechaka

kumbhaka pranayama, puraka kumbhaka pranayama, samavritti

vishamavritti pranayama, and sithali pranayama." See pp. 39-40.

So, if I understand him, he seems to advocate

continued practice of those asanas that are particularly

beneficial, with an increased emphasis on pranayama as we

age. Any thoughts?<br><br>Namaste,<br><br>Patti

[Guest guest]

>>I wonder how Guruji's practice has

changed over time. He seems to me to be a living example

of a path to follow as we age.<<<br><br>Oh

well, Guruji does not practise the asanas anymore -

whereas I wish that I shall be able to practice astanga

yoga until my very last breath. But then, I'm young

still, so I can't figure out yet what it takes to have a

regular asana practice past the age of 80. <br><br>Here

is what Sting once said in an interview regarding

the issue of yoga and ageing:<br><br>"You know, the

intention, the long term goal, is to become completely

fluid, completely liquid and sinuous. As I get older I'd

like to be that. I'd like to have explored the entire

range of my body's abilities. It's not that I am afraid

of getting old. I just want to get old in a certain

way.<br>I want to get old gracefully. I want to have good

posture, I want to be healthy and I want to be an example

to my children. I'm working on it."--

<a href=http://www.whitelotus.org/library2/interviews/sting/

target=new>http://www.whitelotus.org/library2/interviews/sting/</a>

[Guest guest]

Wonderful thoughts, shining skull. I'm just going

to play yoga cop on one bit, though:<br><br>"Oh

well, Guruji does not practise the asanas anymore -

whereas I wish that I shall be able to practice astanga

yoga until my very last breath.."<br><br>Lets not

forget that astanga is an eight limbed path, of which

asana is but one.....

[Guest guest]

After a particularily feeble attempt at a second

series pose years ago, I had this exchange with Eddie

Stern:<br><br>DMcG: Man, I wish had started doing this when I was

20.<br><br>Eddie: Me too.<br><br>DMcG: When did you start

Astanga?<br><br>Eddie: When I was 21.<br><br>Cheers,<br>DMcG

[Guest guest]

TRU DAT BRO!!!!!

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your comments - they are interesting.

First, though, please call me Annie! *Ms Gurton* makes

me look over my shoulder for someone

else!<br>Second, of course you are right about 'secondary' being

the wrong term: I knew that, but I type fast and

online and risk making silly mistakes like that.

Apologies.<br>Third, I don't feel that I have demonstrated courage at

all: I've just followed the path that I felt was

right, and that's fairly easy, even if it is against

prevailing advice and orthodox medical opinion ! IMHO, it

takes enormous courage to stand in front of an audience

and sing - not start yoga at 50 and after a hip

replacement!<br><br>However, I have to take issue with your view that Ashtanga

must strictly follow the prescribed order of asanas.

First, Guruji himself keeps adapting and amending the

series, and second, if it works for me, why is it so

wrong? You say that by inserting my own asanas after

Navasana and before the finishing sequence, I am

demonstrating that I am not ready to move forward in my

practice, but my point is that anyone over 45 will have

more trouble with muscle and joint elesticity than a

under-25-year old. Someone like me with a deep scar in a

crucial joint will never be able to do certain things

again (which is really infuriating, because I sure

would have been able to a few years ago!) <br>If I

follow your advice, my practice will never develop or

advance, because I am blocked by certain asanas that I'll

never master for physical reasons. <br>See what I

mean?<br>Surely it is better to move forward as and where I can,

slowly, slowly, than stop at the point where I am

restricted?<br><br>BTW, all my teachers (and they are some very senior

Ashtanga names) have encouraged me to build strength and

flexibility by working on asanas which are not strictly part

of Primary. As and when I can, I revert to the

Series.<br><br>Perhaps purism can be taken too far and there should

always be room for pragmatism.<br><br>With best regards,

Namaskaar.