Guest guest Posted November 24, 2001 Report Share Posted November 24, 2001 Alright, let's open with a disclaimer:<br><br>This question is directed to the pragmatic who have studied in Mysore. I need a private reply with some good advice and I have no need to spark a public debate/discussion. I would like to hear from someone who went to India and shared my concerns.<br><br>I have a window of travel time in India from December-February. I have been doing vinyasa yoga for 4 years and primary series for ~6 months. I like Ashtanga, and I think it (or some minor modifaction thereof) will continue to be my daily practice. Maybe I might teach one day. Given this, it sounds like I should be on my way to Mysore! However, I've heard:<br><br>1) Long waits to practice<br>2) Little attention for male students<br>3) Mostly western students<br><br>and I know:<br><br>4) It's Very Expensive<br>5) PKJ's book is, to my way of thinking, not very helpful and has lots of superstitious gibbering.<br>6) Western proponents seem to be giving/writing better technical instruction.<br>7) Like minded friends found PKJ's following at US classes cult-like, ego-tripping, and more interested in verbatim replication than serious inquiry, learning, self-transformation. <br><br>(Flame off, kids. I know what the faithful think about all this, but I want to hear from someone who worked their way through this and came to their own conclusions.)<br><br>I would like to maximize my time in India and use it to deepen my understanding of Yoga (that's yoga big "Y" -- I'd like a mix of asana, pranayama, theory, practice, and I wouldn't mind some chanting), and as you can tell I have some serious doubts about PKJ. <br><br>Should I go despite all this?<br>Can anyone recommend other yoga study opportunities in India that include vinyasa asana?<br>Can anyone recommend other yoga study opportunities in India generally?<br><br>Thanks for any help,<br><br>Will<br><br>reply to willinasia2001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2001 Report Share Posted November 24, 2001 Yo,<br>If you live in Santa Barbara, you should talk to Steve Dwelley. He is certified now - meaning he has spent many months/years studying with Guruji in Mysore. <br>Steve Dwelley<br>Ashtanga Yoga Shala<br>324e State Street<br>Santa Barbara, CA 93101<br>(805) 966-7157<br>dwelley<br>www.ashtangasantabarbara.com<br><br>Also a great guy. If you want to do Ashtanga and study in Mysore, he would be a good place to start. A bunch of people who practice at the shala have also been to Mysore.<br><br>Sounds like you have already made up your mind and have some very specific demands when it comes to a teacher. Are you sure you even want a teacher? I don't think anyone will meet those expectations, especially if you aren't willing to give up some of your demands and trust the advise of someone who might be willing to teach you. (WILLING being the operative concept. No one is 'entitled' to study in Mysore. People get turned away all of the time.)<br><br>If you've only been doing the primary series for six months, based on what you have written you are jumping way ahead of yourself. <br><br>If you keep looking hard enough, you will find someone who will tell you exactly what you want to hear.<br><br>If you want to socialize at an ashram, learn some 'chanting' and have a 'yoga vacation' without the demands of a disciplined practice, try the Sivinanda folks. They have oodles of 'yoga getaways' and easy-to-read english manuals. They specialize in people who want to feel like yogi's but don't want to do the work. (The big 'Y') They also therefore specialize in 'modifications' - something that you will NOT find in Mysore.<br><br>FBL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2001 Report Share Posted November 24, 2001 Sounds like Mysore is not for you. <br>There is however a terrific Bikram studio at your local mall which sounds much more suited to your interests and inclinations.<br><br>El Senor, Ole! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2001 Report Share Posted November 24, 2001 Dear FBL.<br><br>Well put.<br><br>DMcG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2001 Report Share Posted November 24, 2001 Sounds like it might be worth your while to look up bns iyengar, who teaches in mysore. (There's a guy in the UK who has a webpage devoted partly to him -- you'll probably find it by typing "bns iyengar" into a search engine). Mr. Iyengar was a student of Krishnamacharya; he offers classes in pranayama, mudra, meditation, as well as an asana system that looks almost exactly like the Ashtanga system before Jois divided it into six series.<br><br>That's almost all I know.<br><br>Peace and Good,<br>Homer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2001 Report Share Posted November 25, 2001 but does bns iyengar have the endorsement of el senor? or is he a yoga criminal? that is the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2001 Report Share Posted November 25, 2001 you might want to try taking classes with Vankatesh. He has a school in mysore and many of PJ's students also take classes form him and his wife. I was in mysore this past year studying with PJ and also took classes in philosophy and chanting from Vankatesh. His school is about a block away from dishnet hub.If you want more info about his school you can probably find it by asking on this or the ezboard<br>good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2001 Report Share Posted November 25, 2001 Here's a website with information about the various yoga teachers in Mysore, including KPJ, BNSI, his student Sheshadri, and Venkatesh.<br><br><a href=http://indigo.ie/~cmouze/yoga_online/Mysore.htm target=new>http://indigo.ie/~cmouze/yoga_online/Mysore.htm</a><br><br>According to this BNSI studied under both Krishnamarcharya and KPJ (it also says some women have felt uncomfortable at his school.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2001 Report Share Posted November 25, 2001 While in Mysore i went to check out BNSI ( KPJ was closed many days due to vatious holidays. )It was fun to visit and practice in the building he taught in and to practice with Indians (instead of westerneres) but as far as his teachings... I wasn't impressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2001 Report Share Posted November 27, 2001 Quite simply you will never know unless you try. <br><br>If you go, go with an open heart and mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2001 Report Share Posted November 29, 2001 Dear Will,<br><br>I am affraid that most of what you heard is true, although some Guru worshippers won't like to hear about it. As you say, Flame off kids!<br><br>I'll go throught your message point by point.<br>1) Long waits to practice<br>From what I heard yesterday the wait is currently around two hours at the busiest time. This is partially because of people trying to jump the queue and not coming at their allocated time. It is bound to get even worst as more students are coming in. There is a lot of grumbling going on about this.<br><br>2) Little attention for male students<br>In fact, little attention to anyone who can do their own practice. Guruji often falls asleep in a corner of the room. Sharath gets bored and leave the room. If you have your own practice, you will probably only get ajusted in backbend, at the end of the practice.<br><br>3) Mostly western students<br>ONLY western students!!! Indian can't afford that kind of prices, and unlike other teachers in Mysore, Patthabi doesn't have a special rate for locals.<br>Also, from what I hear from locals in Mysore, Patthabi Jois is not very well liked amongst them.<br><br>4) 5) 6) It's Very Expensive<br>Yes, and it is very poor value for money. If you have that sort of money to spend on yoga, you would certainly be better of spending in on training with a westerner teacher. <br>Patthabi Jois claim to fame is undoubtingly that he has train in the past some excellent western teachers, such as John Scott, Graeme Northfield, Lino Miele, Deena Kingsberg, David Swenson (to name only the one I have studied with). <br>These teachers understand Western students needs far better that Patthabi Jois ever will, usually do not fall prey of superstition and tradition (such as always doing padmasana on the same side) and you therefore get much better instructions from them. <br><br>7) Like minded friends found PKJ's following at US classes cult-like, ego-tripping, and more interested in verbatim replication than serious inquiry, learning, self-transformation. <br>That's a moot point, but I personnaly believe that you are right on this one as well. I have found the "Guru Worshipping" aspect of studying with Patthabi very disturbing. No other Indian teacher I know would have his students prosternating at his feet. What does that tell us about Patthabi Jois? and about his followers?<br><br>To conclude, my advice to you is:<br>1) If you want to learn ashtanga, go to one of the western teachers certified by him, or to any teacher that has a solid reputation and has been practicing and teaching the system for long enough.<br>2) If you want to study yoga in Mysore, go to Venkatesh (see my article on Yoga in Mysore at<br><a href=http://indigo.ie/~cmouze/yoga_online/Mysore.htm target=new>http://indigo.ie/~cmouze/yoga_online/Mysore.htm</a><br>3) If you want to study ashtanga in Mysore, go to Sheshadri (again, see my article). His shala is not very busy, and you will get value for your money there. I don't recommend BNS Iyengar either, not because of the molesting rumours (I was in Mysore at the time of that incident, and from what I heard then, it has been grossly exagerated), but because he teaches in three rooms at the same time, which garantees that you will get even less attention that in Laksmipuram...<br><br>Happy vinyasa<br><br>Namaste,<br><br>Christophe Mouze<br>Editor Yoga Online<br>Ireland, but currently studying yoga in Mysore<br><a href=http://www.yogamagazine.net target=new>http://www.yogamagazine.net</a> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2001 Report Share Posted November 30, 2001 Hummm... what you are saying does not jive.<br><br>Allen Little, a long-time poster on this form who is in Mysore right now has an online diary of his experiences there. <a href=http://www.alanlittle.org/yoga/MysoreDiary.html target=new>http://www.alanlittle.org/yoga/MysoreDiary.html</a><br><br>He seems to have none of the complaints you have so laboriously outlined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2001 Report Share Posted November 30, 2001 Dear Will,<br> I'm afraid most of what you've heard from Christopher is the same bullshit sour grapes nonsense you hear from all the other bellyaching whiners who don't really have an emotional or spiritual conection with Guruji. Why these people got to Mysore in the first place is a mystery to me. There are always people who find the same nitpicky items to make a big deal about, who cant seem to find one decent thing about practicing at Gurujis.<br><br>1)It is true that there are long waits. BIG DEAL. <br>yes, lets hurry up so I can practice, so I can go and do absolutely nothing for the rest of the day if I feel like it.<br><br>2)Guruji and Sharath didnt adjust me much, but I have to say that being in that room, with Guruji there, even when he was snoozing, was a deeply transformational experience and did incredible things for my practice and in my life. As for Sharath leaving the room when he was "bored"- maybe he went to use the bathroom, they are teaching for hours on end, you know.<br><br>3) If the locals in Mysore do not like Guruji<br>(which is a rude, gossippy thing to repeat, by the way), they are even more obnoxious than I thought. Considering the fact that an entire cottage industry has sprung up around his students, primarily consisting of aggressive panhandling, meals, lodging, and transportation, they should personnally thank Guruji. There a lots of people making the kind of living they would never make if it weren't for him.<br><br>4,5,6) Gurujis fees are not high. What MOST students get out of being there, is worth far more than what they put in to it. If it wasnt true, Guruji would have been out of business long ago. Additionally, lets say Eddie in NY is charging 250 a month- which he does- do you think Guruji should charge the same or maybe even less?<br><br>7) Why is it a moot point? Because YOU, the supreme authority, happen to agree with it?<br>What was cult like about it? Who were the alleged ego trippers? <br>From what I've seen, Guruji neither expects or demands that people bow. People do it because they want to, because they love Guruji, and it makes them feel good!<br><br><br>If you want my opinion, go to mysore and study with Guruji. Dont study with someone else there because its cheaper. Dont listen to grouchy people that talk smack about Guruji, instead align yourself with the majority, who find practicing and spending time with Guruji to be a wonderful, positive life changing experience which seems to keep them going back to Mysore over and over again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2001 Report Share Posted December 2, 2001 j4a, you seem to have a deeply personal animosity towards Pattabhi Jois. Have you studied with him and did you have a bad experience? Who is your guru now?<br><br>Yours,<br>Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2001 Report Share Posted December 3, 2001 The advice that someone who practises astanga yoga should better study with one of Guruji's students, rather than with the man himself, is absolutely ridiculous. Also, the remark that Pattabhi Jois is not well liked among the locals in Mysore is insulting, and strange enough to make by a person who runs an informational website about astanga yoga. The fact that Pattabhi Jois keeps falling asleep in a corner of his shala shouldn't be so unusual for a man of his age, should it? - remember: Pattabhi Jois is 86 years old!<br><br>We owe this man our daily practice - and so much more. Why such venom and complete disrespect towards him, then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2001 Report Share Posted December 3, 2001 frkeen<br><br>Assuming that what passes for knowledge about yoga on this board and the Ashtanga Yoga website comes from Jois, then my mission is to expose the misinformation, egoism, fraud, and manipulation that lies behind the figurehead. There is nothing personal: it's all about Truth, the uncovering of untruth and making enquiries into the reasons behind those untruths.<br><br>Funny, how the more I post on these subjects, the more courage people find to come out and tell their own stories of abuse or question whether this ashtanga vinyasa yoga thing is a cult.<br><br>There is one aspect that is crystal clear - Patanjali would have nothing to do with the statements that Jois allegedly has made regarding this two-stage approach to yoga. The Jois version of Ashtanga Yoga is most definitely not the yoga of Patanjali. It lacks the elegance, completeness, interdependence and mutual supportedness, balance and serenity of the eight angas of Patanjali.<br><br>Of course, there is always the possibility that Jois has been misinterpreted and misrepresented by all those lost fanatics that have a substance abuse problem with prana and endorphins and whose egos have become out of control because of that self abuse.<br><br>j4a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2001 Report Share Posted December 3, 2001 Dear Shining Skull<br><br>I am sorry that you found the advice I gave to study with one of Pattabhi Jois' senior students, rather than with the man himself so strange. This advice comes from someone who has studied both with Pattabhi and with a number of his senior western students. It is not meant to be anything other than one man's opinion, and you can choose to differ, but branding it as ridiculous is insulting to me... <br>The reason why I hold this position is that I have learned far more from teachers like John Scott and Graeme Northfield than I have from Pattabhi Jois, who gives much less in the way of adjustments or instructions than his western students. Ultimately teaching is about communication.<br>Also, contrary to what you seem to believe, I do not have any animosity toward Pattabhi Jois. I respect him for having brought ashtanga to the western world and for having been the teacher of some of the best teachers I have studied with. But I do believe that someone who regularly falls asleep during class cannot be regarded as teaching properly. In any other setting, the advice would be to either cut down on the work hours, or retire. This is not an expression of venom. It is merely an attempt to see the situation as it exists at present. Furthermore, I do not believe that it is normal or reasonable to have to queue up to two hours to practice. Finally, I do not agree with the 'star system' that has been built around him. Thus, I am not prepared to pay the outrageous amount of money that he demands for a mat space in his shala.<br>As far as I am concerned, it is time for Pattabhi Jois to retire and let his senior students(including, of course, his grandson) to carry on the flame of ashtanga yoga. After all, it is rather unusual for a man of 87 to be working such hours, no?<br>As for your remark that it is insulting to mention that Pattabhi Jois is not particularly liked locally, I can only suggest that you come to Mysore and talk to some of the local (Indian) residents of the city. Yes, I run an informational yoga website, (ashtanga and other types as well), but I am certainly not in the business of publishing gossip.<br>I wrote the last email in response to someone's genuine and valid concerns not out of maliciousness towards Pattabhi Jois, but out of a desire to inform.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Christophe Mouze<br>Editor Yoga Online<br>Ireland, but currently studying yoga in Mysore<br><a href=http://www.yogamagazine.net target=new>http://www.yogamagazine.net</a> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2001 Report Share Posted December 3, 2001 Christophe,<br><br>Thank you for sharing your perspective. It is refreshing to hear a dissenting opinion based on first hand experience and expressed with civility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2001 Report Share Posted December 3, 2001 Christophe:<br><br>I agree with elegant h: your posts and online articles have been most helpful. Perhaps we will meet someday in Mysore.<br><br>Peace and Good,<br>Homer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2001 Report Share Posted December 3, 2001 j4a, <br><br>If you are interested in the truth then why don't you study with Pattabhi Jois yourself before you judge his teaching? You can't judge someone fairly just from what you read on a board like this.<br><br>Yours,<br>FK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2001 Report Share Posted December 3, 2001 I doubt if there are two "been to Mysore, got the Tshirt" Guruji devotees who share the same exact opinion of what it means to study at Mysore. That's my opinion from what I've read here, and from all those satanga yogis I've met over the years. Ambivilence is not uncommon, even among those who can do advanced A and have high regard for Guruji. These same people also have their reservations.<br><br>I was there for Guruji's last tour and had a lot of reservations just to plunk down the money to study for a week. On the whole, the xxperience was worth my investment, though I have to say I feel I learn more from watching others than I did from Guruji or Sarath. This isn't meant to be a criticism, because many might agree with me that the entire experience of going to Mysore to study, being with Guruji and Sharath and sharing the energy of that with others is where it's at. There is more to inspiration that ujayi breathing, and perhaps in one light the Guru principle is a hucksterism, on the other hand it does produce genuine results on many levels of growth. There's a story in the Mahabharata about just that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2001 Report Share Posted December 3, 2001 j4a:<br><br>Your post said "It lacks the elegance, completeness, interdependence and mutual supportedness, balance and serenity of the eight angas of Patanjali."<br><br>It is interesting that your experience of Ashtanga is the complete opposite of mine. When I see the primary series well done, I find it elegant in its efficient use of energy and momentum.<br><br>I have found interdependence with teachers and other practioners. The serenity felt in a moving meditation has deepened over time.<br><br>I have been blessed with excellent teachers. i am thankful that this system exists with integrity.<br><br>It is obviously not a good system for you.....nor is it for everybody. <br><br>Maybe over time I will get a "substance abuse problem with prana"........But I doubt it if i persist with excellent teachers.<br><br>All for now from the opposite sid of the same coin,<br><br>Sid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2001 Report Share Posted December 6, 2001 I had pretty much given up on reading & posting here, but I happened to notice Will's questions and they seem to have prompted some real and constructive discussion for a change, so I thought I would post the mail I sent him:<br><br>I just saw your message on the ashtanga board today - I admire your courage asking serious & honest questions in that zoo, I used to read & post there regularly but have almost entirely given up on it. <br><br>I'm in Mysore at the moment, having practiced for a few years before I got round to coming here. I am definitely finding it worthwhile. <br><br>A lot of being here is "darshan". Pattabhi Jois is one of the greatest living yoga masters, we are fortunate to still have the chance just to spend time around the guy and we probably won't be able to do so for much longer. You might regard that as a cultish view, I don't. I don't view yoga as a western-style commercial transaction where I think about what I'm "getting" for my money. If you don't believe in the concept of darshan then you might have a different opinion. But if you're serious about studying Indian philosophy you might want to give it some thought. <br><br>Don't forget that, although Pattabhi Jois has a remarkable level of energy and works amazingly hard for a man of 86, he is an old man. He doesn't have the energy or the strength he had 20-30 years ago when he was teaching the likes of David Swenson or Richard Freeman - sadly for us, our generation has missed the chance those guys had. It's true that he doesn't adjust male students much, I think mainly because he doesn't feel he has the strength to - so he leaves that part of the work to his grandson Sharath who is a *superb* yoga teacher. (Although actually, KPJ adjusted me a lot when I was at his workshop in NY last year). Sharath's adjustments are the best I have ever had. I have made more progress in a month here with him than I would expect to make in a year at home. I didn't expect that - I used to think "how can some 30 year old possibly know more than some of the senior western teachers, just because he's Pattabhi's grandson?", but now actually I think he might. <br><br>Yes, you will get talked at more and learn more so-called "technique" from senior western teachers, some of whome are very good. What you can learn here is that "technique" and "alignment" and all that western iyengar-influenced bullshit aren't all that important, what matters is the effort involved and the energy changes that come from putting yourself into the fire on a daily basis. <br><br>Morning classes are indeed all westerners, Guruji & Sharath teach their Indian students separately. <br><br>Yes, you might have a long wait to practice. A lot of students want to practice here, the shala is small (ten students at a time), and KPJ operates a pretty fair "first come first served" queue system for everybody except long term students who he knows - some of them get somewhat earlier practice slots than newcomers, which I have no problem with (except when they come and sit right in front of me!) What else where you planning to do at 6 to 8 o'clock in the morning? <br><br>There are other good yoga teachers in Mysore. BNS Iyengar teaches basically the same system as Pattabhi Jois and is also a direct student of Krishnamacharya; a student of his called Sheshadri also has a few western students; and there is a younger guy here called Venkatesh who teaches his own approach and is supposed to be good. Mr Iyengar and Venkatesh (or his wife) teach pranyama, theory and chanting classes as well as asana. <br><br>Feel free to think that I've come to Mysore and become a cult victim. I don't think so though. I'm going to be here until about March - maybe we'll have a chance to talk about some of this stuff over a chai some time if you do decide to come. <br><br>(My online Mysore Diary is at <a href=http://www.alanlittle.org/yoga/mysorediary.html target=new>http://www.alanlittle.org/yoga/mysorediary.html</a> ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2001 Report Share Posted December 6, 2001 Thank you for taking the time to compose and post your note and diary. I enjoy the rascally nature of this board, it reminds me not to take my practice too seriously, while being serious about practice. The insight into your Mysore visit will I think aid my own practice, so forget about all the politics that seem to creep in among you second-series guys, from me Thank You for some sense of what it is about with Mr. Jois. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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