Yoga and Weight-training

[Guest guest]

Zekes7 -<br><br>You have some interesting ideas.

Yes I do have an extensive library, as I have been

exploring widely in my quest to straighten out my spine and

get this old body fixed up. I kind of went on an

extensive book-buying spree over the last couple of years.

Now I need to stop buying books and spend some time

reading and applying them, as I have gone into a bit of

debt in building this library. But it was worth it. I

have placed a very high priority on having access to

good books and the more I looked, the more I found. I

wouldn't be too surprised if a book on how to use weights

in asana practice were to pop up.<br><br>But for the

most part, I would agree with hoimbecile's reply -

basically that it doesn't make a lot of sense to use

weights with yoga and that you should practice the two

separately. I would be interested in hearing more about what

you have heard about this though. I thought I had

seen something on the web about "Isometric Ashtanga"

so I did a search and found that a studio in Oakland

offers such classes - check out the class schedule page

at <a href=http://www.monkeyshala.com

target=new>http://www.monkeyshala.com</a><br>I like the line

about "monkeying around in the asanas". But from the

description it doesn't sound like they are using weights.

Ashtanga already includes plenty of isometric exercise and

lots of strength training using the body's own

weight.<br><br>I have heard/seen lots of talk on yoga and

weight-training and for the most part the yoga people seem to say

that weight training is bad or unnecessary, or that

weight training won't help with yoga (but yoga will help

with weight training). So I was very interested to see

the article in the July/August 2000 edition of Yoga

Journal on the subject of weight training to help with

yoga practice. It seems totally obvious to me that

many people can benefit greatly from supplementing

asana practice with weight-training.<br>You could look

at it from either side or neither -yoga helps with

weight training, weight training helps with yoga or just

that both are beneficial. <br><br>Many people may get

all the strength training they need from yoga. I have

seen some very powerfully built yogis (Ashtanga of

course) who don't do any other physical practices. And I

also have a theory that it may be possible to get all

the stretching you need from careful weight training,

maybe incorporating lighter weights (but I could be

wrong - and I would recommend yoga or stretching to

anyone who works with weights)<br><br>There is a limit

on the size of posts here, so I will continue in the

next post.........

[Guest guest]

I noticed that Doug Swenson, brother of David,

mentions using weights DURING asana practice in his

interesting but annoying "Power Yoga for Dummies" book, which

I thumbed through in the bookstore. (I am baffled

by those "Dummy" books but am intrigued by D.

Swenson's yoga style). Obviously, he is an unorthodox

ashtangi, but he is within the tradition, so it's not out

of the question. <br><br>He suggests doing sun

salutations with wrist and ankle weights strapped on to

increase aerobic conditioning, strength and endurance

benefits. I think he also said something about this adding

"lightness" to your practice when you take them off.

<br><br>Thought you might be interested to know . . .<br><br>All

the best,<br>Robyn

[Guest guest]

I teach yoga at several gyms in the Washington,

DC area and have found that the idea of combining

weightlifting with asanas is effective and popular among

stressed-out feds. One idea is to practice standing asanas

between "sets." If you do 3 sets of a weightlifting

exercise, you can do a standing pose after Set 1, then the

same pose on the other side after Set 2, which leaves

time for rest after Set 3. To ground the practice, I

suggest using a mantra while counting the repetitions

within each weightlifting set.

[Guest guest]

First let me correct the link from the last

post:<br>That's <a href=http://www.monkeyyoga.com

target=new>http://www.monkeyyoga.com</a><br><br>It might be

useful for you to know a bit more about where I'm at

with all this. I am totally loaded with deep chronic

tension, to the point that I was diagnosed with scoliosis

(lateral curvature of spine) and kyphosis (rounded

shoulders) at a young age. And I'm also not so young

anymore. And I have developed some work-related repetitive

strain injuries. So progress with Ashtanga or anything

else has been very slow for me. Many people, including

most teachers, would progress WAY faster than someone

like me and usually do not have a lot of understanding

of how deep chronic tension can be. So I have a

different perspective than a lot of people and I am more

interested in the physically therapeutic aspects of hatha

yoga. As such I don't always think that Ashtanga is the

most appropriate form of yoga for everyone. (Although

I do think it can be adapted for anyone).<br><br>If

you are in more "normal" condition, you should be

able make good progress with strength and flexibility

just by practicing Ashtanga yoga. Daily correct

practice should turn a normally healthy human into an

almost superhuman - gradually. If you also practice

weight-training you may progress even faster. There should be no

need to try to boost things to go any faster such as

by combining weights with asana practice (which I

don't think would be wise anyway).<br><br>If you are

more of a "hardgainer" then you may have more of a

need than most people to explore and experiment in

yoga and to supplement asana practice with weight

training.<br><br>Just as it is important to practice yoga correctly,

ideally under a qualified teacher, there are general

principles to learn about in weight training. I'm no expert

on it and have not checked out the literature

extensively, but I think I can recommend a couple of really

excellent books. Beyond Brawn by Stuart McRobert covers the

whole general subject of weight training. The companion

book, The Insiders Tell-All Guide to Weight Training

Technique, also by Stuart McRobert, gives detailed info on

how to perform selected exercises with correct form.

These books are hard to find. I suggest ordering them

from the author at <a href=http://www.hardgainer.com

target=new>http://www.hardgainer.com</a><br>Note

that he is the founder of the Hardgainer philosophy of

weight training, which is very cool, but still not quite

as therapeutically oriented as what I am looking

for. Also, a new book Strength Training Anatomy by

Frederic Delavier is very cool.<br><br>So I think anyone

working with weights should get those books or otherwise

learn the fundamentals. But personally, I am tending to

work with much lighter weights than anyone in the

bodybuilding world is talking about.<br><br>And rather than

adding weights to asana practice, the way I look at

supplementing asana practice with weight training is more the

opposite - how can I gradually build up to being able to

lift my bodyweight. For instance in a pushup, you are

lifting a lot of weight. I don't know how much, since

some of the weight is on your feet, but it seems to be

more that I can handle comfortably and in good form.

So by working with bench presses, I can use any

amount of lighter weight (10,20,30lbs or whatever) and

gradually build up to being able to work with my

bodyweight. Note that in some asanas, such as a handstand,

you are putting the entire weight of your body on

your hands/arms/shoulders.<br><br>Anyway, I think

weight training can be very useful for some yogis and

unnecesary for others -but I would suggest practicing them

separately.

[Guest guest]

Hmmm - that's interesting. I didn't think about

ankle and wrist weights. Not a bad idea. (But I

wouldn't recommend showing up at an Ashtanga class wearing

them).<br><br>Whoever thought of the Books for Dummies idea must be

very wealthy by now. And then someone else comes along

with Books for Complete Idiots. Perhaps I'll start a

series - The Stupid Person's Guide to...<br>But they do

hire some good people to write some of them. I'll have

to get Doug's book someday.

[Guest guest]

Let me toss in a couple of things here,<br>The

original question referred to bodybuilding, which is a

specific science distinct from weight training. So I am

assuming that the desire is to create increased lean

muscle mass, definition, etc., all of which requires a

different approach than "weight training", which uses the

same equipment but towards differet goals of increased

strength, better explosive power, etc. Trying to make for

more ease in push-ups requires a different approach

than trying to increase pectoral muscle mass and

separation. Of course there is some crossover, but if you

look at the guy who has the record for most push ups,

for example, he looks nothing like a

bodybuilder.<br><br>"Note that in some asanas, such as a handstand, you are

putting the entire weight of your body on your

hands/arms/shoulders."<br><br>Well kind of, but but this is a good example of

the

very basic difference between the physical yoga

practice and any weight training/bodybuilding. The yoga

handstand is all about lightness and floating or rising. In

my experience, the key to that asana is pelvic lift

and lightness, not muscle strength. Coming into the

practice as I did from a bodybuilding background, one of

the things I had to overcome was using my unusual

brute strength to force asanas rather than surrendering

and breathing my way to where I wanted to go. Of

course, I am also working on releasing some rather severe

mobility limitations from years of heavy weight training

and bodybuilding, but that is a

pleasure.<br><br>Also, if the questioner is trying to substantially

increase muscle mass, the energy and muscle fiber exertion

of steady ashtanga practice may work against him. If

the original poster provides a bit more information

regarding age, bodyweight, general genetic physique type,

and level; of experience in ashtanga and

bodybuilding, I can offer specific advice.<br><br>I started

yoga just to loosen up some of the restriction from

the muscle mass, and found so much more, in so many

ways, than I was expecting that it was amazing. I enjoy

ashtanga form greatly, but because I'm kind of "tight" I

do have a problem with the rigidity of the orthodox

program of rigid adherence to the sequence, so I've been

forced to work in a few detours around some spots. Hope

I can be forgiven!

[Guest guest]

"The yoga handstand is all about lightness and

floating or rising. In my experience, the key to that

asana is pelvic lift and lightness, not muscle

strength." -- that's the best practical argument i've heard

so far against weightlifting, along with mcguire's

post and the fact that no one has ever reported seeing

guruji or sharath doing wrist curls while supervising

morning practice. <br><br>although i think zeke has put

forth some valid points and i wish him good luck with

his health challenges, i wonder if after he gets down

to 200 lbs. he'll shed the ankle weights and find

that girlfriend of his and see how her bod is

progressing at age 61.

[Guest guest]

I lifted weights for a time, before I got

involved with yoga practice.<br><br>I'd say that for those

who are seeking a kind of "cross training" addition

to balance their weight lifting, or to add to their

cross training regime for another sport, then yoga will

help them in that regard.<br><br>But if one wants to

progress in astanga yoga, weights are either unnecessary

or down right counterproductive. For example, doing

sets of military or behind the neck presses isn't

going to help vrksansana.

[Guest guest]

I do get a bit sloppy sometimes in distinguishing

between bodybuilding and strength training. But I usually

think of "weight training" as including the distinctly

different practices of bodybuilding and strength training,

as well as therapeutic or rehabilitative weight

training and maybe also just general fitness or

maintenance training.<br><br>Probably we are coming at

Ashtanga from almost opposite directions among the many

possibilities. Very interesting to have your input

here.<br><br>As for the handstands, I think one still has to have

the strength before they can get into the more subtle

nuances.<br> <br>I would assume that we would mainly think of

the strengthening in Ashtanga as being more in the

realm of strength training rather than bodybuilding. (I

know that's not the whole point of Ashtanga, but

strengthening is certainly one of the effects). As such, I

wonder what general direction one might take to work

towards building more strength? Like just to be able to

work with ones own bodyweight. I mean if someone

wanted to do some supplemental weight training, would

higher reps and lower weights be more appropriate than

the traditional method of overloading at 10 reps? Any

good suggestions for more reading on this? I haven't

yet figured out the fundamental differences in

bodybuilding and strength training theory. For instance

McRobert's books seem to be addressing both at

once.<br><br>I know that theoretically one should just be able

to "get it all" by just practicing Ashtanga. Like

just by struggling with pushups you should get

stronger. But I am interested in trying to understand it

all scientifically and from different perspectives.

[Guest guest]

"I haven't yet figured out the fundamental

differences in bodybuilding and strength training

theory"<br><br>This is really off-topic so I'll be relatively brief.

Bodybuilding is about creating muscle growth and shape,

without particular regard for that muscle's ability to

perform. Appearance is the goal. Size, symmetry, cuts,

vascularity, density, separation, and proportion are the

criteria of excellence. The training and dietary (and

drug) methods used to achieve this are specific for the

goal. Some bodybuilders happen to be very strong,

others not so much. Of course most guys with 20" arms

are pretty handy around a gym, but they are not as

"strong" as say, powerlifters, who concentrate on 3 lifts

(benchpress, deadlift, and squat), even though the powerlifter

is typically carrying much less muscle mass. Almost

no powerlifter has a muscular 20" arm, lots of top

bodybuilders do. But very few of those bodybuilders can do an

honest 475 pound bench press; lots of powerlifters can.

The training is very different, as are the results.

Some crossover, but lots of difference...<br>" I mean

if someone wanted to do some supplemental weight

training, would higher reps and lower weights be more

appropriate than the traditional method of overloading at 10

reps?"<br>Depends what they want out of it. If they want more

muscular bulk, the opposite is true. Lower reps, higher

weight. Particularly if you are doing ashtanga with its

high aerobic component. Frankly, I don't see any

reason for a person with a vigorous ashtanga practice to

do any light weight work, you are getting plenty of

repititions in from ashtanga. If a man who tended towards

ectomorphy (thinness) wanted to add a bit of upper body

muscle for appearance purposes, some low rep/heavy

weight work twice a week along with the ashtanga

practice could help him achieve this goal. For a

endomorph(fat-type) concentration on ashtanga and diet are much more

important than weight work. A natural mesomorph(muscular

frame) would likely achieve an excellent physique from

ashtanga alone, assuming a decent diet<br>"Any good

suggestions for more reading on this?"<br>You mean other than

the book I just wrote above? If you are interested in

bodybuilding, the recent stuff by R Coleman And D Yates are

pretty much state-of-the-art.

[Guest guest]

Matt, are you retarded?<br><br>No one with any

experience or yoga knowledge would use weights to practice

ashtanga yoga.<br><br>You appear to be another one of the

ignorant and unqualified teachers who has hung out a

shingle and now believes he is qualified to teach. You

are not.<br><br>Go back to your nightclubs but please

stop teaching or proffering your worthless

advice--before you hurt someone.<br><br>El Senor Pinche

Wey<br><br>Ole!