Gita and Varnaashrama Dharma

[Guest guest]

K.P. Sridharan writes:

* I would like to pose a question Varnasrama dharma. In BG 4.3 Krishana

* says " Chaturvarnyam maya srishtam.." Thus He says that the varna system

* was created by him bases on guna and karma namely qulities and the

* occupation (?) [...] If indeed varna is not determined

* by birth what was the system by which varnas were alloted?

 

This is a difficult question to answer and one that I have

debated on many occasions. In my gut I feel that Sri Krishna is not

talking about any kind of rigid birth-based varna, even though

Vedanta Desikar says the opposite. Ramanuja is not so clear, but it

does not seem to be a big issue for him.

 

It should be noted that when Sri Ramanuja interprets

the phrase "better to do one's dharma than another's", he

takes it to mean karma-yoga vs. jnaana-yoga. The dharma of

jnaana-yoga is fraught with fear, since it is so difficult;

only the most astute and gifted can perform it, whereas

karma-yoga is an easy beginning point for all. In other words,

the issue of brahmana vs. sudra is completely absent here.

 

I feel that the Gaudiyas are correct from an absolute

standpoint. One's varna is determined through careful

introspection, with the help of a guru, etc. One also

is naturally inclined to certain tasks based upon one's

varna. I cannot explain any more than this since the

literature on the topic is so vague. As Yudhisthira

tells the yaksha in Mahabharata, ``Follow the lead of the

rishis and elders, for the dharma-saastras are a mass of

confusion.''

 

Sri Azhagiya Manavaala Perumaal Nayanaar, younger brother

of Sri Pillai Lokacharya, has written a work called "Acharya Hridaya"

that goes into detail about the duties of a true prapanna

and Sri Vaishnava. In this context, prapanna status

transcends the divisions of varna and ashrama, in that

everything is purely bhagavat kainkaryam and completely

honorable. Most violations of varna dharma are therefore

not a big deal. Sri Krishna (and Ramanuja in his commentary)

say just as much in the verses near the end of the 9th

chapter of the Gita.

 

There is also a verse attributed to Villiputtur Pakavar,

who used to consciously bathe in an area far removed from

the orthodox smaartas of his time. When asked why he did

so, he said

 

vishnu-dAsA vayam yUyam brAhmaNA varNadharmiNaH

[...] nAsti sangatiH

 

I have forgotten one pAda of the sloka, but in effect he

is saying that there is no connection between the duties

as Vishnu's servants and those of the orthodox varnaashrama

brahmins.

 

Mani

 

P.S. Look at the original verse itself: chaaturvarNyam is

based on guNa and karma, meaning the qualities of the person

and the actions he or she performs. Jaati is never mentioned.

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 27 Oct 1995 15:01:50 -0700 Mani said:

>

 

 

[..snip..]

>This is a difficult question to answer and one that I have

>debated on many occasions. In my gut I feel that Sri Krishna is not

>talking about any kind of rigid birth-based varna, even though

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>Vedanta Desikar says the opposite. Ramanuja is not so clear, but it

>does not seem to be a big issue for him.

 

[..snip..]

 

 

Let me say at the outset that my objective is

inquiry, not criticism.

 

The following verse seems to indicate that the

concept of 'VarNam' in Srimad Bhagavath Geethai

is something determined solely and rigidly by birth.

 

------

Verse 41 of chapter 1, a part of Arjunan's

justifications for refusing to fight.

 

"adharmaabhivaath pradhushyanthi kulasthriya:

sthreeshu dhushtaaSu vaarshNEya jaayathE varNaSangra:"

 

The interpretations I found in RK Mutt publication

as well as one affiliated with Sri Ahobila Mutt, say

that with the rise of immorality (in other words,

decline of righteousness) women belonging to

specific 'kulam' lose their chastity; with such loss

of chastity comes mingling of varNam.

-------

 

One possible explanation is that this is said by

Arjuna and not by the Lord. But this is not

satisfactory. The notion that 'loss of chastity will

result in varNaSangraha' is never rejected, or so it

seems to me. Even in later chapters where

characteristics for different varNaas are described

there is no rejection of Arjunan's statement 1.42.

The presence of verse 1.42 makes the absence of

its rejection significant. In the absence of such a

rejection, one is left to conclude that according to

Srimad Bhagavath Geethai birth determines varNam.

 

 

 

-- Dileepan

[Guest guest]

On Sat, 28 Oct 95 17:59:18 EDT I said:

>

> Even in later chapters where

>characteristics for different varNaas are described

>there is no rejection of Arjunan's statement 1.42.

^^^^

>The presence of verse 1.42 makes the absence of

^^^^

>its rejection significant. In the absence of such a

>rejection, one is left to conclude that according to

>Srimad Bhagavath Geethai birth determines varNam.

>

 

These must be 1.41. I regret the typo. However,

verse 1.42 is a continuation of the theme expressed

in verse 1.41.

 

 

-- Dileepan