Guest guest Posted May 1, 1996 Report Share Posted May 1, 1996 Vidyasankar writes: *** Not true. The dates above represent the dates when the succeeding *** maThAdhipati took over from the previous one. They do not *** represent dates of sannyAsa. An authoritative "not true"! :-) My knowledge of these matters is restricted to one source, the introduction by Swami Tapasyananda of RK Mutt Publication Sankara DigVijaya. From what I have seen, Tapasyananda has commented on number of other works and seems reasonably knowledgeable. However, in these matters, he could be wrong; but if so, I want to see more in the way of evidence. With that has a preamble, I continue. This is verbatim from the book: "In the fortieth year (i.e. 1335), he became associated with thefounders of the Vijayanagara empire - Hari Hara I and his brother Bhukka I - who began the consolidation of the State by 1336. He served under three successive kings as chief minister and built up the greatness and prosperity of that kingdom until he retired in about 1380 to take up the life of Sannyasa at the age of 85. He begame the head of the Sringeri Math for a few years and passed away at the age of 91 in 1386." For what it is worth, Tapasyananda is quite precise about both the time he became the Muutadipathi, and the time he became a Sanyasi. He further goes on to argue why the Vidyaranya, the Muttadhipathi, is the same Vidyaranya of the Vijayanagara court. He writes (again quoting verbatim): "The identity if further established by the poet (i.e. Vidyaranya) Madhava's reference to his life in the royal court in the following touching introductory verses of his work: "By indulging in indulging in insincere praise of the goodness and magnanimity of kings, which are really non-existent like the son of a barren woman or the horns of a hare, my poesy has become extremely impure. Now I shall render it pure and fragrant by applying to it the cool and fragrant sandal paste falled from the body of the danseuse of the Acharya's holy fame and greatness, as she eprforms her dance onthe great stage of the world." Re: inscription. How can it be established, incontrovertibly, that the Vidyaranaya, the sanyasi mentioned in the inscription, is the same Vidyaranya of Sringeri Mutt? You mentioned the gotras, what were teh gotras of the various Vidyarananyas? >From what I understand, the chief minister is not a minor position, and hence, it seems that there should be far less confusion than perhaps even Mutt records (e.g. gotrams etc.). I was under the impression that Sanyasis do not use their gotrams upon becoming sanyasis. Is this true? Anyway, regardless of how this issue is settled, I am personally of the opinion that these are nit-picky issues that are best handled by Ph.D dissertations and of little consequence to establishing Sri Vedanta Desika's spiritual outlook. sk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 1996 Report Share Posted May 1, 1996 Vidyasankar writes: *** Not true. The dates above represent the dates when the succeeding *** maThAdhipati took over from the previous one. They do not *** represent dates of sannyAsa. An authoritative "not true"! :-) My knowledge of these matters is restricted to one source, the introduction by Swami Tapasyananda of RK Mutt Publication Sankara DigVijaya. From what I have seen, Tapasyananda has commented on number of other works and seems reasonably knowledgeable. However, in these matters, he could be wrong; but if so, I want to see more in the way of evidence. With that has a preamble, I continue. This is verbatim from the book: "In the fortieth year (i.e. 1335), he became associated with thefounders of the Vijayanagara empire - Hari Hara I and his brother Bhukka I - who began the consolidation of the State by 1336. He served under three successive kings as chief minister and built up the greatness and prosperity of that kingdom until he retired in about 1380 to take up the life of Sannyasa at the age of 85. He begame the head of the Sringeri Math for a few years and passed away at the age of 91 in 1386." For what it is worth, Tapasyananda is quite precise about both the time he became the Muutadipathi, and the time he became a Sanyasi. He further goes on to argue why the Vidyaranya, the Muttadhipathi, is the same Vidyaranya of the Vijayanagara court. He writes (again quoting verbatim): "The identity if further established by the poet (i.e. Vidyaranya) Madhava's reference to his life in the royal court in the following touching introductory verses of his work: "By indulging in indulging in insincere praise of the goodness and magnanimity of kings, which are really non-existent like the son of a barren woman or the horns of a hare, my poesy has become extremely impure. Now I shall render it pure and fragrant by applying to it the cool and fragrant sandal paste falled from the body of the danseuse of the Acharya's holy fame and greatness, as she eprforms her dance onthe great stage of the world." Re: inscription. How can it be established, incontrovertibly, that the Vidyaranaya, the sanyasi mentioned in the inscription, is the same Vidyaranya of Sringeri Mutt? You mentioned the gotras, what were teh gotras of the various Vidyarananyas? >From what I understand, the chief minister is not a minor position, and hence, it seems that there should be far less confusion than perhaps even Mutt records (e.g. gotrams etc.). I was under the impression that Sanyasis do not use their gotrams upon becoming sanyasis. Is this true? Anyway, regardless of how this issue is settled, I am personally of the opinion that these are nit-picky issues that are best handled by Ph.D dissertations and of little consequence to establishing Sri Vedanta Desika's spiritual outlook. sk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 1996 Report Share Posted May 1, 1996 skaushik wrote: > An authoritative "not true"! :-) > > My knowledge of these matters is restricted to one source, > the introduction by Swami Tapasyananda of RK Mutt Publication > Sankara DigVijaya. From what I have seen, Tapasyananda has commented > on number of other works and seems reasonably knowledgeable. However, I am not denying that Swami Tapasyananda is very learned. Some of his writings are very well done, but in this particular matter, I would beg to disagree with him. His discussion of Sankara's date is also somewhat inconclusive, in that he tries to concede as much as possible to all sorts of contrary "traditional" dates, which leads nowhere. This may be okay for the purposes of hagiographical description, but as history it is weak. > This is verbatim from the book: > > "In the fortieth year (i.e. 1335), he became associated with > thefounders of the Vijayanagara empire - Hari Hara I and his brother > .... > 1380 to take up the life of Sannyasa at the age of 85. He begame the > head of the Sringeri Math for a few years and passed away at the age > of 91 in 1386." This is not what the Sringeri traditions and more reliable historical records say. The legend about the founding of the Vijaynagar empire is that Harihara and Bukka met and became disciples of Vidyaranya, when he was doing tapasyA on virUpAksha hill near Hampi. This might have been in the year 1335 CE. What is certain from rock inscriptions is that in 1346 CE, Harihara and Bukka came to Sringeri, to pay respects to the maThAdhipati there, for his blessings in setting up the Hindu kingdom. The founding of the Vijayanagar empire is probably the first time a Hindu king consciously thought of the Arab and Turks as aliens who needed to be resisted on religious as well as political and military grounds. This 1346 inscription mentions bhAratI tIrtha and vidyAraNya as disciples of vidyASankara tIrtha, who were on the "dharma simhAsana of Sr.ngeri". This was also the time when the foundation for the vidyASankara temple was laid at the site of the samAdhi of vidyASankara tIrtha. The relevant records are now in the possession of the Archeological Survey of India. Obviously, if vidyAraNya was already at the dharmasimhAsana of Sr.ngeri in 1346, it is difficult to square this with the idea that he "served" under three kings of vijayanagar. The source for this confusion is the fact that vidyAraNya's name was originally mAdhava. Whether this mAdhava was the younger brother of sAyaNa or not, is not very clear. In the vijayanagar empire itself, there was a minister named mAdhava and a governor of the province of Goa, also named mAdhava. > You mentioned the gotras, what were teh gotras of the various > Vidyarananyas? The various gotras are of the various mAdhavas. There was only one vidyAraNya. sAyaNa and mAdhava were of the AngIrasa gotra, bodhAyana sUtra yajurvedins. mAdhava, the governor of Goa was of the Gautama gotra, and the other minister mAdhava was kauSika gotra, I think. More authoritative discussion on the gotras of the three mAdhavas can be found in P.V. Kane's History of Dharmasastra, in the context of his discussion on the pArASara-mAdhavIyam. It is not clear what gotra was the mAdhava who became vidyAraNya. This of course squares in with the advaita attitude towards the complete severing of all pUrvASrama connections after sannyAsa. Even for fairly recent advaitins, there is very scanty information on their pUrvASrama lives. > He further goes on to argue why the Vidyaranya, the Muttadhipathi, is > the same Vidyaranya of the Vijayanagara court. He writes (again > quoting verbatim): > > "The identity if further established by the poet (i.e. Vidyaranya) > Madhava's reference to his life in the royal court in the following > touching introductory verses of his work: "By indulging in indulging > in insincere praise of the goodness and magnanimity of kings, which This introductory verse only proves that the writer of this Sankara-vijayam was a mAdhava who used to praise kings to receive material benefit. It does not prove that this mAdhava is the same as vidyAraNya. Of course, there has never been any doubt that the mAdhavIya Sankara-vijayam is indeed the composition of a person named mAdhava who lived in the 14th century. There has been some recent controversy about its authorship, but that is driven by rivalry among different maThas. Swami Tapasyananda also points this out in his footnotes in pages 8-10 of his introduction to the translation. However, I don't see how this verse can be taken as proving the identity of this mAdhava with vidyAraNya. Even if the author mAdhava is the same as vidyAraNya, the verse does not identify which king it was that he praised, nor when he composed this Sankara-vijayam. The reference to praising kings is too general and not conclusive. > Anyway, regardless of how this issue is settled, I am personally > of the opinion that these are nit-picky issues that are best handled > by Ph.D dissertations and of little consequence to establishing > Sri Vedanta Desika's spiritual outlook. Of course. If it is the vairAgya of vedAnta deSika that is sought to be emphasized, what you say is true. However, when referring to vidyAraNya, who is considered a jIvanmukta and a jagadguru by the advaitins, it is perhaps advisable to be more careful in the choice of words than to call him a court official or a minister of the vijayangar kingdom. It is also not consistent with the fact that vidyAraNya was called karNATaka simhAsana pratishThApanAcArya - surely this was an AcArya who blessed the effort to establish a karNATaka simhAsanam, not a mere official. So, all in all, getting back to Swami Tapasyananda's translation of the mAdhavIya Sankara vijayam, a large part of what he says in his introduction is true. But his account of when vidyAraNya became a sannyAsI is not correct. This is further reinforced by the fact that vidyAraNya's guru is always mentioned as vidyASankara, and not bhAratI tIrtha, who preceded vidyAraNya at Sr.ngeri. This information is based upon the colophons of the philosophical works of vidyAraNya, the authorship of which is beyond doubt. Now, if you look at the dates Swami Tapasyananda gives for vidyASankara, it is clear that vidyAraNya could not have become a sannyAsI as late as the 1380's. Regards, S. Vidyasankar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 1996 Report Share Posted May 1, 1996 Vidyasankar writes: *** This is not what the Sringeri traditions and more reliable historical *** records say. What specifically do the Muttam records show? Do they have dates? I am aware, though not that well, that Muttam records (I am not sure if it is the Kanchi Kamakoti peetam where this applies) have a probelm of omissions and duplications (due to names that repeat commonly). What reliability is there in these dates? *** Even if the author mAdhava is the same as vidyAraNya, the verse does not *** identify which king it was that he praised, nor when he composed this *** Sankara-vijayam. The reference to praising kings is too general and not *** conclusive. It is certainly understandable that the author chooses not to mention the kings name, becausee it was irrelevant (of what use would that specific information be to anyone). Re: Gotras What *incontrovertible* proof is there that Madhava's brother, Sayana, was not a "dutta"? Perhaps he was indeed Vidyaranya's brother, but his gotra was different, owing to being a given away. After all, so little is known about the poorvashrama life of the muttadhipatis. Since the gotram of Vidyaranya has not been established, it seems impossible to conclude one way or the other based purely on teh grounds of gotra. But let me ask the following question. Suppose that Vidyaranya was on the dharma-simhasana. Why would it be impossible for him to have agreed to assist/advising the king inthe capacity of a minister? After all, sages of the Vedic times, were men of the state (e.g. Vasistha). Would this not solve all the problems? To add support to this "theory," I quote from the late Kanchi Kamoti Peetadhpathi, Sri Swami Chandrasherendra Saraswati, (in the book "Acharyas Call: His Holiness Jagadgurus's Madras Discourses 1957-1960, Part I compiled by V. Ramakrishna Iyer, p. 31") "Coming to later times, we find the jurisdictional Vijayanagar Empire extended to Kanyakumari. The one person who helped to found and build up this great empire was Vidyaranya, a **sanyasi**. He is the author of Vedad Bhasya, commentaries on the Vedas and several philosophic works.... The Vijayanagar empire was also built on the foundations of our religious principles. Generals like Gopanna did yeoman service in the protection and construction of numerous temples. When danger threatened the temple of Ranganatha at Sri Rangam, Gopanna gave protection to it. Sr Vedanta Desika has composed a verse expressing gratitude to Gopanna for this service.... In this way, Sri Vidyaranya helped up to biuld this empire on the solid strrenght of our sastras." Not only is this from whom I consider a HIGHLY reliable source, it also establishes that the Vidyaranya of Vijayanagara Empire and Vedanta Desika were contempories. *** Of course. If it is the vairAgya of vedAnta deSika that is sought to be *** emphasized, what you say is true. However, when referring to *** vidyAraNya, who is considered a jIvanmukta and a jagadguru by the *** advaitins, it is perhaps advisable to be more careful in the choice of *** words than to call him a court official or a minister of the *** vijayangar kingdom. I do see why the dates are of concern to those who are followers of Sringeri Peetam. One could raises qurestions about the character of the muttadhipatis who were formerly men of the world. However, I see no such problem or need for concern, as perhaps you do. I say all this, not out of vitandavada, but only to point out that, from my "naive" reading, there is no overwhelming reason to discount the hypothesis that Vidyaranya, the muttadipathi of Sringeri Mutt, was the same Vidyaranya who was the chief minister associated with the Vijayanagar empire. You dismiss the introductory verses as irrelevant. I do not do so that lightly. I don't see what other explanation one can construe with that, other than that he was involved in the kingdon. Frankly, the writing of a senior acharya, whose words are relatively faithfully preserved are in, some senses stronger than any information such as gotra because the latter is not so important and can be easily forgotten or mistaken. One here is faced with a dilemma. On one hand, we have Sri Vaishnanva hagiography indicating the link between Vedanta Desika and Vidyaranya. I have read this in more than one location, so I a believe that it is a relatively prevalent legend. There is a perfectly feasible corraboration of this. However, you are suggesting that the Sri Vaishanavas (at least Vadagalais) discard key elements of their acharyas life. Agreeable, not all legends are true. I cannot establish that all thje legends of Ramanuja and Vedanta Desika are true, beyond a reasonable doubt. It is finally a matter of faith as to what we believe and to what strength we believe them. But I believe that you must, with equal fairness, consider the same for legends associated with Sankara Muttams. sk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 1996 Report Share Posted May 1, 1996 Sumanth, it seems you are arguing for the sake of arguing in this post. Vidyasankar has presented rather substantial evidence that Vidyaranya the mathadhipati of Sringeri Matha could not have been a mere court official of the Vijayanagara empire. Adumbrations about Vasishta and others aside, the practice of sannyasis during this time period was to live by themselves or in a matham, certainly not to actively involve themselves in the day to day administration of a kingdom. At any rate, Vidyasankar is surmising that Madhava (the author of the Sankara Vijayam) is different from Vidyaranya the sannyasi. That is all. This Vidyaranya Swami may certainly have requested Swami Desikan to seek assistance from the Vijayanagara kingdom; we all accept this possibility, and that it is a very telling story. The question was really as to the status of Vidyaranya vis-a-vis the Vijayangara kingdom. * What *incontrovertible* proof is there that Madhava's brother, Sayana, * was not a "dutta"? Perhaps he was indeed Vidyaranya's brother, but his gotra * was different, owing to being a given away. It is virtually impossible to prove a negative. This is a rather strange theory, anyhow. * To add support to this "theory," I quote from the late Kanchi Kamoti * Peetadhpathi, Sri Swami Chandrasherendra Saraswati, (in the book * "Acharyas Call: His Holiness Jagadgurus's Madras Discourses 1957-1960, * Part I compiled by V. Ramakrishna Iyer, p. 31") With no disrespect to Kanchi Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswati intended, I would put a great deal more faith in the Sringeri Matha historical tradition based upon their own historical records than the oral tradition of a rival mutt. Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswati Swami is himself reflecting his understanding of the historical record, and is speaking in a comparatively informal context. Finally, it is the norm of both traditional and western scholars to use gotra to establish the identity of people. This is why Desikar's acharya is referred to as ``Atreya Ramanuja'', to distinguish him from Ramanuja the author of the Sri Bhashya, who (I believe) was vAdhUla gotra. * ... it * also establishes that the Vidyaranya of Vijayanagara Empire and * Vedanta Desika were contempories. This has been fully accepted by everyone involved in this discussion. Whether or not one believes in this story, Desikar's detachment from the world stands in no need of corroboration. His verses describing his feeling of vairAgya speak for themselves. Mani P.S. It should be obvious that the mere acceptance of a story by a section of people does not make it absolutely true. It is sometimes the case that these stories are concocted to fan sectarian fires. For example, some Vadagalai Sri Vaishnavas are of the opinion that the identification of Ramanuja with Adi Sesha has been propagated by Thengalai Sri Vaishnavas to further the theory that Manavala Mamuni is the reincarnation of Ramanuja. Manavala Mamuni is invariably shown with the hood of adisesha above his image, and the equation of him with adisesha occurs quite early in the hagiographical literature after his death. At any rate, the point is that the greatness of these souls first lies in the work they performed in service of the Lord. Only for these reasons have they been elevated by their devout followers as amsas of the Divine, not the other way around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 1996 Report Share Posted May 1, 1996 skaushik wrote: > What specifically do the Muttam records show? Do they have dates? I am > aware, though not that well, that Muttam records (I am not sure if it > is the Kanchi Kamakoti peetam where this applies) have a probelm of > omissions and duplications (due to names that repeat commonly). What > reliability is there in these dates? I do not know specific details from the Sr.ngeri maTha records. However, I do know that they have specific dates in their records for the period following the 14th century. These dates are highly reliable, because they have been compared with records relating to the mahArAjAs of vijayanagar, the nAyakas of kelADi and ikkeri, and then the rAjAs of Mysore. The maTha itself has in its possession records written in some plant dye on cloth, which is preserved by coating the cloth with a thin coat of melted beeswax. These are called kaDitas, and there are additional kaDitas of the Sr.ngeri maTha in the Govt. Oriental Manuscripts Library (GOML) Madras, and in the Mysore palace collection. As for the Kanchi peetham's records and their reliability, it is too controversial, and I don't want to get into that now. > What *incontrovertible* proof is there that Madhava's brother, Sayana, > was not a "dutta"? Perhaps he was indeed Vidyaranya's brother, but his gotra > was different, owing to being a given away. After all, so little is The incontrovertible proof against this is found in the verse describing Sayana, Madhava and Bhoganatha as sons of SrImatI and mAyaNa of the Angirasa gotra. This is found in the vedabhAshya manuscripts. As such, the gotra information is too specific to be lightly discarded. I should think that if there is any gotra information about any author in any Indian text, that should be taken fairly seriously, more so than other hagiographical glories of the author. > But let me ask the following question. Suppose that Vidyaranya was on > the dharma-simhasana. Why would it be impossible for him to have > agreed to assist/advising the king inthe capacity of a minister? After Agreed to assist/advise, yes. As a minister, no. There are other examples in Indian history, like Sivaji and Ramadas, Vyasaraya and Krishnadevaraya, and so on. > all, sages of the Vedic times, were men of the state (e.g. Vasistha). > Would this not solve all the problems? Maybe, but note that vedic r.shis were not sannyAsIs. Vasishtha was a married man. Also, his involvement with the state was not in the capacity of a minister, but as the guru/purohita of the Ikshvaku dynasty. The minister, during Dasaratha's time, was not Vasishtha, but Sumantra. I am not denying that Vidyaranya was involved in an advisory capacity in the foundation of the Vijayanagar empire. After all, his involvement is acknowledged by the title "karNATaka simhAsana pratishThApanAcArya", that has been subsequently applied to his successors at Sr.ngeri also. What I doubt is that his involvement extended to the level of daily administration and other kinds of duties that a minister is supposed to do. Also, there is no doubt that Vidyaranya and Vedanta Desika were contemporaries. It is also quite possible that Vidyaranya suggested to Vedanta Desika to seek patronage at the court. But for this, we only have tradition to go by. In many instances, that is all we have, agreed. But with our modern "scientific mind" it is sometimes satisfying if tradition is also corroborated by independent sources of information. After all, the tradition in question deals with historical personalities, who lived at a time from which we have fairly reliable historical records. > I do see why the dates are of concern to those who are followers of > Sringeri Peetam. One could raises qurestions about the character of > the muttadhipatis who were formerly men of the world. However, I see > no such problem or need for concern, as perhaps you do. No, there is no concern about the maThAdhipati having formerly been a man of the world. After all, every sannyAsI was a man of the world before he took to sannyAsa. No, my interest in this issue is quite simple. There are many legends associated with vidyAtIrtha, bhAratI tIrtha and vidyAraNya, some of which originate from Sr.ngeri, and others which seem to originate elsewhere. Given my interest in advaita and advaitins, I just like to separate plausible fact from what is purely legendary. Not that it serves any spiritual purpose, but this is only to clarify historical details. > Frankly, the writing of a senior acharya, whose words are > relatively faithfully preserved are in, some senses stronger than any > information such as gotra because the latter is not so important and > can be easily forgotten or mistaken. It is not my intention to say that this AcArya is right, that one is wrong at all, however senior or junior they may be. But I assume that all the AcAryas in question know all the relevant details fairly well. > One here is faced with a dilemma. On one hand, we have Sri > Vaishnanva hagiography indicating the link between Vedanta Desika and > Vidyaranya. I have read this in more than one location, so I a believe > that it is a relatively prevalent legend. There is a perfectly feasible > corraboration of this. However, you are suggesting that the Sri > Vaishanavas (at least Vadagalais) discard key elements of their > acharyas life. Not at all. In most of our traditions, we have nothing more than hagiography to rely upon. I have never denied the contemporaneity of Vidyaranya and Vedanta Desika. > Agreeable, not all legends are true. I cannot establish that all thje > legends of Ramanuja and Vedanta Desika are true, beyond a reasonable > doubt. It is finally a matter of faith as to what we believe and to > what strength we believe them. But I believe that you must, with equal > fairness, consider the same for legends associated with Sankara > Muttams. Of course. The controversy over the credentials of the Kanchi matham is obviously not possible without there being some doubt about the legends of the Sankara mathams. This controversy has also forced both followers of the Sringeri and the Kanchi mathams to look at their own legends critically. However, I do not agree that belief in the legends of the maThams is a matter of faith. Frankly, when I am told that so and so AcArya is a jIvanmukta, I don't accept it without examining the life of that AcArya carefully. This might just be conceit or pride on my part. I can accept a devotee's stories of personal spiritual benefit obtained in a conversation with an AcArya. The moment universal claims are made, I step back and put my critical thinking cap on. To me, acceptance of the legends specific to one maTha or the other seems more like willing suspension of disbelief, rather than positive belief or faith. Faith in the guru is fine, but I don't agree that it has to translate into faith in the legends of the maTham he is associated with. The legends are peripheral detail, the truth value of which is inconsequential, in terms of calling oneself a disciple of a guru. I therefore draw a distinction between being a follower of a maTham, which is nothing more than some sort of loose accreditation, and being a disciple of an AcArya who happens to be a maThAdhipati, which is much more intensely personal. As for the value of the legends of various maThams in increasing the controversies or solving the questions of historical dates of various personalities, please see http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~vidya/advaita/ dating-Sankara.html. The last paragraph and especially the last sentence illustrate my attitudes towards the stories associated with the various Sankara maThams. S. Vidyasankar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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