A Dialogue on Hinduism - Chapter 6 - Post #7

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LONG LONG LONG LONG

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Post 7 of 14

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Chapter 6 of 13 of "A Dialogue on Hinduism,"

By Sri. V.N. GOPALA DESIKAN,

Published by Sri Visishtadvaita Research Centre, C/O Sri

Ahobila Mutt, 66, Dr. Rangachari Road, Madras 600 018, 1990

 

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The posts in this series are likely to be long.

Therefore, please print these posts and read them

at your leisure.

 

 

-- P. Dileepan

 

 

 

====Start of Chapter 6 of 13 from Sri Gopala Desikan's book=======

Chapter - 6

Iswara - The Lord and Master

 

Q. What is the essential nature of Iswara?

 

A. The essential nature of Iswara is truth, knowledge,

infiniteness, happiness and purity. He is present

everywhere. He knows everything.

 

Q. Why is He called Bhagavan?

 

A. He possesses six qualities and that is why He is called

Bhagavan. Bhaga in Sanskrit means good quality.

 

Q. What are these six qualities?

 

A. These are: 1) Knowledge 2) Lordship 3) Strength 4)

Valour 5) Energy and 6) Splendour.

 

Q. I have heard people saying that Iswara is the cause of this

world. Please explain.

 

A. You have a potter and the mud pot. The pot is made

from the material mud. So mud is the cause and pot is

the effect. Mud is called as the material cause of pot

(Upadana Karana).

 

Now, mud by itself cannot change into a pot. The potter

has to change the mud into a pot. So, in the making of

the pot, the potter is also the cause, like the mud. The

potter is called the instrumental cause (Nimitta Karana).

 

Thus, for a mud pot, the mud is the material cause and

the potter is the instrumental cause. I will give you

another example.

 

Take the case of a weaver. The weaver weaves a cloth

out of the raw material yarn. In this case, the cloth is the

produced effect. For the cloth, the yarn is the material

cause and the weaver is the instrumental cause.

 

Q. Are there any other causes for such things?

 

A. Again, take the example of the mud pot and the potter.

Now, just with mud alone, the potter cannot make the

pot. He requires the wooden wheel and some other

similar wooden implements to make the pot out of the

mud. Such implements like the wooden wheel are called

the supporting cause (sahakari karana).

 

So, summarising, we have three causes for producing

anything. One is the material cause (upadana karana); the

second is the instrumental cause (nimitta karana); and the

third is the supporting cause (sahakari karana).

 

Q. So far as creation of the world is concerned, what is the

relationship of Iswara or Brahman?

 

A. Brahman is the material cause in the creation of the

world. He is also the instrumental cause in the creation.

There is no supporting cause required for Him in the

creation of the world. Or, we can also say that He is also

the supporting cause in the creation of the world.

 

If we consider the world as a pot, He is both the mud and

the potter, for the creation of the pot (i.e. the world).

 

Q. What is the difference between creation and evolution of

the world?

 

A. Brahman is the material cause; so, we say that Brahman

evolves into the world. Brahman is the instrumental

cause; so, we say that Brahman creates the world.

 

Thus, the evolution of the world means that Brahman is

the material cause. Creation of the world means that

Brahman is the instrumental cause. (Just as mud evolves

into mudpot; the potter creates the pot.)

 

Q. I can understand your saying that He is the instrumental

cause in the creation, but it is rather hard for me to

understand that He is also the material cause.

 

How can Brahman or Iswara Himself change into the

world just as the mud changes into pot or just as the yarn

changes into cloth?

 

A. I shall describe this to you in some detail. We should

fully accept the authority of the Vedas. Let me quote to

you the following passages from the Vedas, which make

it clear that Brahman is also the material cause.

 

"He thought may I become many."

 

"The Brahman is the wood. Then Brahman became the

tree."

 

"He desired may I become many."

 

"He became defined and undefined, real and unreal. Yet

He remained as real. The wise perceive Him as the

source of beings."

 

There are many other passages also, which clearly show

that Brahman is the material cause of the world, besides

being the instrumental cause.

 

A story in Chandogya Upanishad says that there was a

young boy Svetaketu who was sent by his father to a

teacher for learning. He studied under the teacher for 12

years and after study, returned home.

 

His father asked Svetaketu: "I find that you are arrogant

and you are thinking that you have learnt everything. Do

you know about that, by knowing which everything else

becomes known.

 

Svetaketu did not know, how by knowing one thing, all

other things will become known. So, his father proceeds

to give examples and teaches him. The father says:

 

1. From mud, we make pots and dolls. So knowing

mud, all that is made of mud, is so known;

because they are all products from the same basic

raw material mud.

2. Similarly, we make jewels out of gold. So, by

knowing gold, all that is made of gold, like

jewels, are also known; because they are only

modifications or products of gold.

3. Again, from iron, we make so many materials like

knife and scissors. So, by knowing iron, all the

products that are made of iron, also become

known; because basically there is only iron and all

others are only modifications of iron.

 

Similarly, by knowing Brahman, the whole world and

everything in it becomes known.

 

Q. So, what do we understand from these examples?

 

A. From this, it is clear that Brahman is compared to mud or

gold or iron, out of which, pot or jewel or knife

(respectively) are made.

 

From mud comes the pot. So, by knowing mud,

everything made of mud becomes known. Similarly,

Brahman evolves in to the world and all other things.

Hence by knowing Brahman, everything else becomes

known. This is the meaning of these examples.

 

In other words, Brahman is the material cause (upadana

karana) of whatever we see in the world; just as mud is

the material cause of mud pot; just as gold is the material

cause of gold jewels; and just as iron is the material

cause of knife and scissors.

 

Q. Please explain further about Brahman being the material

cause of the world.

 

A. The Chandogya Upanishad states as follows:-

 

"Then the Brahman desired "may I become many, may I

grow". Then it created fire, etc." From this, it is clearly

seen that the Brahman evolved into the world; because

the Brahman says "may I become many." So it is proved

that Brahman is the material cause.

 

After this, the Chandogya Upanishad describes the three-

fold division of elements. I have already described this

to you earlier.

 

Further, it is said that Brahman desired and said "I will

create names and forms."

 

So, this also shows that Brahman is both the material

cause and the instrumental cause.

 

Q. What is the position of Jivatma, before and after, pralaya?

 

A. At the beginning of creation, namely, after the pralaya,

the matter and Jivatmas are all merged, in an extremely

subtle state, in Brahman.

 

Then the Brahman desired "may I become many". He

then created the elements and the worlds, out of Himself.

Then He gave them names and forms. So, the Brahman

becomes both the material and the instrumental cause

(upadana karana and nimitta karana).

 

Q. Are there any other passages in the Upanishads which

explain that the Brahman is the material cause?

 

A. There are very interesting examples in Mundaka

Upanishad. Saunaka asks Angiras:- "What is that, by

knowing which, everything else in the world becomes

known"?

 

Angiras proceeds to explain. He gives the example of a

spider. A spider creates thin threads, out of its own body

and mouth and spits them out. It weaves a web around

its body, out of these threads. The spider, then, eats back

the threads forming the web. In other words, the threads

come out of the spider and are eaten back by the spider.

 

Similarly, Brahman creates the world, out of Himself and

again withdraws the whole thing, the world, into Himself,

at the time of deluge. This example clearly shows that

Brahman is the material cause of the world.

 

There is another example in the same Upanishad. The

plants and herbs grow from the earth, i.e., come out of

the earth. In the same way, the world also comes out of

Brahman.

 

Thus, the teacher Angiras explains that, since the world

and everything else comes out of Brahman; by knowing

Brahman, everything else becomes known.

 

There is another example given in Brihadaranyaka

Upanishad. Yagnavalkya tells his wife that, by knowing

Brahman, the whole world and everything else becomes

known; and proceeds to give an example.

 

From a moist and wet firewood, we try to light up fire.

But only smoke comes out, because of wetness of the

firewood.

 

Just as smoke comes out of the wet firewood, all the

world and everything else, come out of Brahman.

 

These examples show that Brahman is the material cause

of the world.

 

Q. You say that the Lord - Iswara - is present everywhere.

Have our Alwars and Acharyas specifically stated so?

 

A. Yes. Nammalwar says that the Lord is present

everywhere, as the soul in the body. He also gives a

beautiful simile. He says that the Lord is present

everywhere and in everything, like ghee in the milk.

 

We cannot straightaway see ghee in the milk. Milk has

to be turned into curd. From curd, you churn and get

butter. You heat the butter to get ghee.

 

Thus, although ghee is in milk we cannot see the ghee

directly. Similarly, God is in everything, although we

cannot see Him directly with our eyes.

 

Q. Is this Lord's presence in everything mentioned in the

Vedas?

 

A. Yes, in several places. Let me give you some beautiful

examples from Svetasvatara Upanishad.

 

The Paramatma is in the Jivatma, like oil in til seeds

(sesame):

butter in curds:

water in the earth (under ground):

fire in wood.

 

Although. the Upanishad mentions Paramatma's presence

in Jivatma, the extension of this principle shows

Paramatma's presence in everything.

 

Q. What about our Acharyas?

 

A. We have the great Alavandar, who has also used the

simile of ghee in milk (like Nammalwar), to show the

presence of the Lord in everything.

 

 

Q. We have been speaking all along, as Brahman or Iswara.

Who exactly is Brahman or Iswara? Is there one single

deity, who is supreme?

 

A. Here are some passages from the Vedas which will

answer your query.

 

1) "There was only one Narayana, no Brahma, no

Rudra"

 

2) "From His forehead, the three-eyed person, having

Sula is born; the four-faced Brahma is born."

 

3) "Brahma is born from Narayana, Rudra is born

from Narayana"

 

4) "Brahma is Narayana,

Siva is Narayana,

Indra is Narayana,

The directions are Narayana. All things are

Narayana"

 

5) "There is only one Divine Being - Narayana"

 

6) "Narayana is the inner soul of all beings."

 

7) "He crosses the human bondage of samsara and

reaches the Paramapada of Vishnu."

 

8) "Among the Devas, fire (Agni) is the lowest and

Vishnu is the highest.

 

9) "He created Brahma as before and taught him the

Vedas."

 

10) "From the Brahma's forehead, Rudra was born."

 

11) "The Universe is Narayana."

 

12) "Narayana is the supreme Brahman. Narayana is

the supreme truth or reality. Narayana is the

supreme light. Narayana is the supreme atma or

Paramatma.

 

Whatever is in this world, seen or heard, all that is

pervaded by Narayana, both within and without,

He is Brahma. He is Siva. He is Indra."

 

From these, it will be clear to you who is the supreme

deity, who is the Brahman and who is Iswara. There are

innumerable such passages in the Vedas.

 

Q. Where does this last passage, "He is Brahma, He is Siva,

He is Indra" occur?

 

A. This passage occurs in Taittiriya Upanishad. This is

called Narayana Anuvaka.

 

Q. But I have heard that this occurs in Maha Narayana

Upanishad.

 

 

A. 'Actually it forms part of Taittiriya Upanishad. But some

modern people call it by a separate name as Maha

Narayana Upanishad.

 

Q. You read the passage as "He is Brahma, He is Siva, He is

Indra." But some people read it as "He is Brahma, He is

Siva, He is Hari, He is Indra." Which is correct?

 

A. The Vedic passage should read without the words "He is

Hari". The words "He is Hari" are later interpolation;

and it is not correct.

 

Q. How do you say that the words "He is Hari" are later

interpolation and not correct?

 

A. The reason is very simple. If you add the words. "He is

Hari" in this verse in the Vedas, the metre becomes

incorrect.

 

According to Sanskrit grammar, the metre of the verse is

correct, only if the words "He is Hari" are not there.

Thus it is very clear that the words "He is Hari" are only

interpolation, at a much later period.

 

Q. What was the need for this interpolation, at a later stage?

 

A. With the interpolation it reads as "He is Brahma, He is

Siva, He is Hari, He is Indra." This will give an

impression that all the three viz., Brahma, Vishnu and

Siva. are equal, as also Indra.

 

So, perhaps this was the intention of the people who

interpolated, that all the Gods should be treated as equals.

 

Q. Are these passages in the Vedas also supported by

Smritis, Itihasas and Puranas?

 

A. Yes. Here they are.

 

1) Varaha Purana: Narayana is the supreme deity.

From Him was born the 4-faced Brahma and from

Brahma arose Rudra.

 

2) Mahabharata: when the Jivatma and matter have

gone into dissolution, i.e., 'during the deluge

(pralaya), there is only one remaining and He is

Lord Narayana.

 

3) Mahabharata: There is no being in the world that

is eternal or permanent, except Vasudeva.

 

4) Harivamsa: Siva's words to Narayana; "Brahma is

called Ka and I am called Isa. We two were born

from your limbs. Therefore, you are called

Kesava."

 

5) Mahabharata: Brahma's words to Siva: "I was

born by His grace and you from His anger, in one

of the earlier creations."

 

6) Mahabharata: Brahma, Rudra and Indra together

with all other devas and rishis, worshipped the

divine Narayana, the greatest of Gods.

 

7) Ramayana: Rudra sacrificed all things in a great

yaga called Sarvamedha and then sacrificed

himself also mentally.

 

8) Ramayana: They knew Vishnu is greater (than

Siva).

 

9) Mahabharata: These two, Brahma and Rudra, who

are the greatest among the devas, are born out of

the Lord's grace and anger. They perform the

duties of creation and destruction, as ordered by

Him.

 

10) Mahabharata: The devas are under the protection

of Rudra. Rudra is under the protection of

Brahma. Brahma is under my protection. I do

not need the protection of anyone. I am the

refuge of all.

 

11) Vishnupurana: Brahma, Daksha, Rudra, all these

are among the attributes of Bhagavan.

 

12) Mahabharata: The words of Brahma to Rudra:

"He (Narayana) is the inner soul of you, of me

and all beings. He sees everything, but cannot be

seen by anyone or anywhere."

 

13) Rudra says in Mantra Raja Pada stotra: All beings

are the servants of Paramatma. Therefore, I am

also your servant and with this knowledge, I bow

to you.

 

14) Mahabharata: There is no one superior to

Narayana, the God of the lotus eyes. There is no

God superior to Vishnu.

 

15) Naradapurana: There is no divine being, higher

than Kesava.

 

16) Mahabharata: He (Vishnu) is the king of all kings.

He is the Iswara, He is the father, He is the

creator.

 

17) Mahabharata: Those intelligent people do not

worship Brahma or Rudra or any other devas,

because the fruit of their worship is limited.

 

18) Mahabharata: Lord Narayana told the devas: "This

Brahma is your father and mother and grandfather.

He will give you boons under instructions from

me. Rudra, his younger brother, had his origin

from my forehead. Rudra will grant boons to

beings under instructions from Brahma."

 

19) Bhagavad Gita: Krishna says: "Those who do

sacrifices to other deities, they also do sacrifice

only to Me; but not in the proper manner and

according to rules."

 

20) Ramayana: Brahma, the three-eyed Rudra cannot

save a person from being killed in war, by Rama.

 

21) Mahabharata: Meditating always of the Lord -

 

Brahma, Rudra and others have not yet realised

the Lord's nature.

 

22) Mahabharata: Mahadeva (Rudra) sacrificed himself

in Sarvamedha yaga and became Devadeva.

 

23) Mahabharata: He, whom Madhusudana sees at the

time of birth, becomes Sattvika. If Brahma or

Rudra sees him at the time of birth, he is filled

with Rajoguna and Tamoguna (respectively).

 

24) Mahabharata: Narayana is Parabrahma. Narayana

is Paratattva. He is greater than the greatest.

There is none greater than Him.

 

25) Mahabharata: Siva said: I was born from His

(Narayana's) head. He is the one, fit to be

worshipped always. By seeing Him, all other

deva, can also be deemed to be seen.

 

I (Siva) also worship Him (Narayana) always -- -

 

All of us, devas, reside in His body.

 

26) Vyasa: This is the Truth, Truth and Truth. There

'is no greater deity than Kesava.

 

27) Harivamsa: Siva said:- Only Hari is to be

meditated upon, always. He is to be worshipped

always. I (Siva) help in the worship of Hari.

 

28) Vishnu Purana: The world is born out of Vishnu

and rests in Him. He is the world -- He resides in

all; and all beings reside in Him. Hence He is

called Vasudeva. He is the Parabrahma.

 

29) Varaha Purana: Lord Narayana was at the

beginning. From Him was born Brahma.

 

30) Bhagavata: Brahma said:- I, Brahma, create the

world, commanded by Narayana. Siva, controlled

by Narayana, destroys the world.

 

31) Bhagavata: The water from (washing) the feet of

Vamana, which was borne on the head, with

supreme devotion, by Kailasa vasa, Chandramouli

(Siva) ....

 

32) Bhagavata: Brahma to Vishnu: We - Rudra and

others - drink with our 11 senses, the honey in

your lotus-like feet.

 

33) Bhagavata: Rudra to Krishna: You are the highest

jyotis. The sky is your navel, agni is your mouth

-- You are the first purusha. You have no equal

or superior. Myself (Rudra), the devas and rishis

- all seek refuge in you. You are everything to

us. You are our atma and ruler. You have no

equal or superior; there is nobody else to be

approached for protection. I come to you so that

my samsara may be ended.

 

34) Bhagavata: Rudra to, Parvati:- You asked me,

when I rose from my yoga --, on whom I

meditated. That person is Bhagavan (Narayana),

whose maya, you have just witnessed. He is

eternal.

 

35) Bhagavata: Rudra:- One, ... who loves Bhagavan

Vasudeva, goes after a hundred births to the world

of Brahma; then he comes to my world. He will

then reach the eternal world of Vishnu, as myself,

Indra and other devas will do, at the expiration of

our authority.

 

36) Bhagavata: Markandeya to Rudra: I will ask for

this boon:- "May my love for Bhagavan

(Narayana), for those that regard Him as the

highest goal, and for you, remain unshaken."

 

Rudra: "You will be a lover of Bhagavan

(Narayana)."

 

37) Parvati asks Siva: "I want to hear from you this:

 

How do the learned people recite the 1000 names

of Vishnu easily? Siva replies: "It is enough, if

you say Rama. This is equivalent to all 1000

names of Vishnu. I also enjoy saying the name of

Rama."

 

I have quoted above, only very few. passages. There are

innumerable such passages in smritis, puranas and itihasas

stating that Narayana is the supreme deity.

 

Q. But I hear that in some places in the Vedas, Siva is also

called as the supreme deity. How do you explain this

contradiction?

 

A. I have to tell you one thing. Narayana is a proper noun.

According to Sanskrit grammar, Narayana can mean only

one person. It cannot mean any other person.

 

But, Siva, Rudra and Sambhu are common nouns. Siva

means an auspicious person. Rudra means, one who

weeps or one who is dreadful. Sambhu means one who

grants happiness and prosperity. So, these are common

nouns. So, as common nouns, they can refer to any

person, including Narayana; although normally they apply

to Siva. This is on the authority of Sanskrit grammar.

 

 

 

Q. Can you give some examples?

 

A. We have a word in Sanskrit, called Sarasija. This is a

common noun. This means that which comes out from a

lake. There are so many flowers, which come out from a

lake, i.e., which are there in a lake. But still, by common

understanding, Sarasija means only a lotus flower.

 

Similarly, there is a word Pankaja in Sanskrit. This

means that which comes out of mud or slush. Again, so

many flowers can sprout out of mud or slush. But it is

commonly accepted in Sanskrit, that Pankaja refers only

to Lotus.

 

So, two of the common nouns, Sarasija and Pankaja,

although they can apply to all flowers, are still taken to

refer only to Lotus.

 

Similarly, Sambhu, Siva and Rudra are common nouns.

So, they can refer to any deity or person, although

normally we identify these names with Siva.

 

Q. So how do you explain the apparent contradiction?

 

A. We have to apply some logic here. We accept that the

Vedas as a whole, are the ultimate authority. There is

nothing in the Vedas, which is not authority. So, in a

majority of passages, the word Narayana occurs as

Paramatma. In some places, the word Siva or Rudra also

occurs as Paramatma.

 

Now, we have to be clear on one thing. Narayana,

according to Sanskrit grammar, is a proper noun. It

cannot refer to any other person. But Siva and Rudra are

common nouns. So they can refer to any other person.

Since we do not accept any contradiction among the

different passages in the Vedas, we say that the words

Siva and Rudra also, when they refer to Paramatma,

actually mean Narayana, because these are common

nouns.

 

Q. Why can't we take it that the word 'Narayana' (as

Paramatma) refers to Siva; instead of saying that the

word "Siva" refers to Narayana?

 

A. The answer is very simple. Siva is a common noun. It

can mean any person and hence it means Narayana in the

particular context.

 

But the word Narayana cannot refer to Siva, because

Narayana is a proper noun. This is on the authority of

Sanskrit grammar; and we have to accept the grammatical

position.

 

Q. I find there are several passages in the Vedas, praising the

greatness of Siva.

 

A. There are several passages in the Vedas, which praise the

greatness of Brahma; which praise the greatness of Indra;

which praise the greatness of Agni or fire. Similarly,

many passages in the Vedas also praise the greatness of

Siva.

 

But the important thing to see is who is declared as the

supreme deity or Paramatma. As I have explained to you

so far, it is clear from the Vedas and Puranas and

Itihasas, that Narayana is the supreme deity, the

Paramatma.

 

Q. Why not we say that Brahma, Vishnu and Siva are all

equal?

 

A. What you are saying is not supported by the fundamental

authority, the Vedas. From the Vedic passages I have

given above, you can see that the Vedas speak of only

one supreme deity and the supreme deity is Narayana.

 

There is nothing in the Vedas to show that two or three

Gods are equal; and that two or three Gods can be

considered as supreme deities. Further, as you will see

from the quotations given earlier, both Brahma and Rudra

themselves accept that they have come out of Narayana,

that they are born out of Narayana.

 

Nowhere in the Vedas, is it stated that two or three Gods

are equal; that Brahma, Vishnu and Siva are equal. The

Vedas all along say that there is only one supreme deity

and that is Narayana.

 

Q. We have got the ancient Tamil works (Sangam literature),

which are several thousand years old. What do these

mention about the supreme deity?

 

A. All these ancient Tamil works also mention that Narayana

is the supreme deity. I am not giving quotations, because

they are in Tamil.

 

Q. If Narayana is the supreme deity, why should Rama (His

Avatara) worship another deity in Rameswaram, as

people say?

 

A. This version is not authentic. We accept Valmiki

Ramayana as the authority. There is no mention at all in

Valmiki Ramayana about Rama worshipping any deity in

Rameswaram. There is no such mention in the

authoritative version of Kamba Ramayana also.

 

Q. Similarly, there are stories that Narayana took the form of

a boar (Varaha) and searched the feet of another deity;

that Narayana took out his eye and surrendered it to

Rudra and got chakra, etc. What do you say about these?

 

A. I can only say that these are not found in any ancient,

authoritative works. These have not been quoted by Adi

Sankara or any of the Acharyas, belonging to the other

schools of Vedanta. These have not been mentioned in

Sastras, which are accepted as authority.

 

Q. Please tell me something more about Rudra.

 

A. 1) I will give you a quotation from Bhagavata:

 

"The river Ganga is the greatest among all rivers.

Narayana is the greatest of all deities. Siva is the

greatest of all Vaishnavas. Bhagavata is the

greatest of all Puranas."

 

2) We accept Ahirbudhnya Samhita as one of the

respected authorities. Here, Rudra has praised

Narasimha in Mantra Raja Pada Stotra. Here,

Rudra says as follow:

 

"All the Jivatmas are the servants of you, the

Paramatma. So, I am also your servant and

worship you."

 

3) Parvati asks Siva "How can the thousand names of

Vishnu be recited easily every day?" Siva replies:

 

"It is enough to say Rama. This is equal to

thousand names of Vishnu. I also enjoy uttering

the name Rama."

 

Q. But Harivamsa says Krishna requested for a child, from

Siva. How do you reconcile this?

 

A. Varahapurana says, that Rudra requested Narayana as

follows:

 

"Please grant me a favour. In one of your avataras, you

should also pray to me and ask for some favour."

 

Narayana agreed and said that in one of His avataras He

will ask for a favour, from Rudra.

 

That is why, in Krishna avatara, He requested Rudra for a

child, as per the promise given earlier. This has been

mentioned in Varahapurana.

 

It will also be clear from the fact that, immediately after

granting the favour for a child Rudra says as follows:-

 

"Krishna, out of His simplicity only, came to me for a

child. But He is the source of all beings. He is the

protector of all. He is the supreme Tattva. He alone

gives Moksha."

 

Summing up, it is only because of these things that

Vedavyasa says as follows:-

 

"This is the truth. This is the truth. This the truth. I

raise my hands and say there is no greater authority than

the Vedas greater deity than Kesava."

 

It is in keeping with this only, that Krishna says in Gita

"It is I alone, who is understood from all the Vedas."

 

 

Q. Does it mean that we cannot give or we should not give

respect to Brahma and Rudra?

 

A. No. It does not mean that. They are respectable. We

give them proper respect, like we will give to other

persons.

 

Only thing is, on the authority of the Vedas, Narayana is

the supreme deity.

 

Q. We see that God Narayana also take avatharas like Rama

and Krishna. Does it mean also born in this world, like

us?

 

A. No. We human beings or animals or trees are born in this

world because of our past karmas punya and papa. There

is no such thing as Karma or punya or papa for Lord

Narayana.

 

So, when He comes into this world, as Rama or Krishna,

it is not like other Jivatmas. He comes into this world of

His own free will and desire. So, it is not birth for the

Lord, like we understand the birth of any of us.

 

Q. Can you quote the authority of the Vedas?

 

A. The Vedas say that He is not born; but still, He is born in

many ways.

 

Q. Well, that sounds puzzling.

 

A. What the Vedas say is that He is not born, because of

past karma, like us. But He is born in many ways. He

takes many avataras, like Rama and Krishna, out of His

own free will, not bound by any karma.

 

Q. Then are these avataras real?

 

A. They are real. We have been reading the Ramayana and

Mahabharata and Bhagavata. The avataras are real. In

fact, the Bhagavad Gita has been preached by Krishna in

this avatara only.

 

Q. Why should He take avataras in this world?

 

A. This is to uphold dharma or righteousness. In the Gita,

Krishna says that whenever there is a decline in

righteousness or dharma, whenever adharma raises its

head, then the Lord takes avataras in this world.

 

Q. What is the purpose of these avataras?

 

A. The purpose is to protect the good people and punish the

wicked; and to re-establish dharma.

 

Q. Between the two, namely, protection of the good people

and punishing the wicked, which is the more important

purpose of the avatara?

 

A. Certainly, protection of the good people is the more

important purpose. Good people like Prahlada, Vidura,

Akrura and others desired to see the Lord, to worship

Him in person. It is to bless such good people that the

avataras are made.

 

If it is only for punishing the wicked, this can be done

even from Paramapada or Sri Vaikunta, by His simply

desiring to that effect. The Sudarsana chakra is there to

carry out His orders and for punishing the wicked.

 

Q. When the Lord took avatars in this world, like Rama or

Krishna, did He also have bodies like us, ordinary human

beings, of flesh and blood?

 

A. No. Here Gita says that the bodies the Lord takes during

these avataras are of Suddha Sattva. I have explained to

you already, what is Suddha Sattva. So there is no

question of the Lord having bodies like us, ordinary

human beings.

 

Q. What are the forms of Bhagavan Narayana?

 

A. We can say that, for the purposes of meditation, He has

two forms. One is the divine and auspicious form. The

second is, with the body consisting of Jivatmas and

matter (chetana and achetana). This is what we saw

earlier that Iswara or Narayana is the soul and Jivatma

and matter are His body.

 

Q. Please describe in a little more detail the divine and

auspicious form, which you mentioned.

 

A. His form has four arms. His body shines like gold. He

has eyes like lotus; feet like lotus; hands like lotus. This

form is in Paramapada or Sri Vaikunta. Besides divine

ornaments, He also has weapons, like the sankha and

chakra, gada, sword and bow.

 

Q. I have also heard that Lord Narayana has five kinds of

forms. What are these?

 

A. The five forms are called:

1. Para. 2. Vyuha. 3. Vibhava. 4. Antaryami. 5. Archa.

 

Q. Please describe the essential features of each of these

forms. What is Para form?

 

A. The Para form is that of Sri Narayana in Paramapada or

Sri Vaikunta. There, He is also called Para Vasudeva.

The description of Sri Vaikunta is given in Kaushitaki

Upanishad and also in the Sri Vaikunta Gadya of

Ramanuja.

 

The throne (simhasana) has eight legs, like dharma. The

adisesha (serpent) is the seat. There Narayana shines

along with Lakshmi, Bhudevi and Niladevi. He has four

arms and has sankha, chakra and gada. He has a number

of ornaments.

 

Q. What is the second form, i.e., Vyuha form?

 

A. This is a bit difficult and you have to listen carefully.

The Lord Narayana assumes four forms by name,

Vasudeva, Sankarshana, Pradyumna and Aniruddha.

 

The first vyuha is Vasudeva. From the first vyuha

Vasudeva, arises the second vyuha Sankarshana. From

the second vyuha Sankarshana, arises the third vyuha

Pradyumna. From the third vyuha Pradyumna, arises the

fourth vyuha Aniruddha.

 

As I told you earlier, the Lord is called Bhagavan,

because He has six qualities. The six qualities are: l)

knowledge, 2) strength, 3) lordship, 4) valour, 5 energy

and 6) splendour.

 

Q. You are saying that because He has the six qualities, He

is called Bhagavan and these qualities are not found in

others. But we hear many people being called as

Bhagavan, like Vyasa Bhagavan and Narada Bhagavan.

How do you explain this?

 

A. We apply the word Bhagavan to others, only out of

respect. When we say that Rama is a lion, it only shows

that Rama is as majestic and strong as a lion. Similarly,

when we say Vyasa Bhagavan, it is only a term of respect

for Vyasa.

 

Q. How do you differentiate between the four Vyuhas,

Vasudeva, Sankarshana, Pradyumna and Aniruddha?

 

A. Although these are all forms of the Lord, in Vasudeva,

we have all the six qualities, which I have just mentioned,

in full.

 

Of course, in the other three vyuhas also, all the six

qualities are present; but some qualities are found

predominantly in some of the vyuhas.

 

The qualities 1) Knowledge and 2) strength, are in plenty

in Sankarshana. Similarly, the qualities, 3) lordship and

4) valour are in plenty in Pradyumna. The qualities, 5)

energy and 6) splendour, are in plenty in Aniruddha.

 

Q. What is the function of Vasudeva?

 

A. Vasudeva is the object of worship and enjoyment by the

Jivatmas, who have attained salvation or moksha.

 

Q. What is the function of Sankarshana?

 

A. We saw that Sankarshana has knowledge and strength in

plenty. Because of the knowledge, as Sankarshana, the

Lord promulgates the sastras. Because of the strength, as

Sankarshana, He destroys the Universe.

 

Q. What about Pradyumna?

 

A. As Pradyumna, having in plenty lordship and valour, the

Lord creates the universe, and makes dharma prevail.

 

Q. What is the function of Aniruddha?

 

A. Aniruddha has in plenty energy and splendour. So, as

Aniruddha, the Lord protects the world, and also teaches

the truth.

 

Q. Is there any further sub division of these vyuhas?

 

A. Yes. As we have been doing sandhyavandana, you know

the 12 names of the Lord Narayana. The 12 names are:

Kesava, Narayana, Madhava, Govinda, Vishnu,

Madhusudana,, Trivikrama, Vamana, Sridhara, Hrishikesa,

Padmanabha and Damodara.

 

So, from each of the four Vyuhas mentioned above, the

forms of three sub-Vyuhas appear. For example, from

the first Vyuha of Vasudeva, we have the three sub-

Vyuhas, Kesava, Narayana and Madhava.

 

Similarly, from the second Vyuha Sankarshana, we have

Govinda, Vishnu and Madhusudana.

 

From the third Vyuha Pradyumna, we have, Trivikrama,

Vamana and Sridhara.

 

Finally, from the fourth Vyuha Aniruddha, we have

Hrishikesa, Padmanabha and Damodara.

 

Q. What is the significance of these 12 sub-Vyuhas?

 

A. We state that symbolically they are called the Lords of

the 12 months, beginning from the Tamil month of

Margazhi.

 

Kesava is the lord for the month of Margazhi.

 

Narayana is the Lord for the month of Thai. Madhava is

the Lord for the month of Masi and so on. For the 12

months, these 12 sub-Vyuhas are the Lords.

 

We also wear the 12 urdhvapundras (Tirumann) in our

body. These 12 Lords are respectively masters of each

one of these.

 

Q. Earlier you mentioned about para Vasudeva in the first

form of para. Again you mentioned as the first Vyuha

Vasudeva. What is the difference between the Para

Vasudeva and Vyuha Vasudeva?

 

A. There is no difference at all. Both are differentiated only

for the purposes of meditation. There is no other

difference.

 

Q. What is the third form of the Lord?

 

A. The third form of the Lord is called Vibhava. That is,

when He takes avataras and comes down to this world.

 

He takes the form of men like Rama or Krishna; or

animals like fish, tortoise and boar. These avataras are

called as the third form, or Vibhava, of the Lord.

 

Q. How many avataras are there?

 

A. There are ten avataras which are considered as the main

and important ones.

 

Q. What are they?

 

A. 1) The first is called the avatara of. fish. This was taken,

because a demon took away the Vedas from Brahma and

hid himself in the sea. So Lord Narayana took the form

of a fish, to get back the Vedas from the demon and. give

them back to Brahma.

 

2) The second avatara is that of the tortoise. The Devas

wanted to have the nectar or amrita, for immortality. So

the Lord advised them to churn the milky ocean.

 

Naturally, for churning the ocean, they required a

support. The mountain of Mandara was used as the

support.

 

But, when they started churning the ocean, the mountain

itself started sinking into the ocean. So the form of

tortoise was taken to support the mountain itself, from the

bottom and thus prevent it from sinking into the ocean.

 

3) The third avatara was that of the boar. The demon

Hiranyaksha took away the mother earth. He rolled the

earth and went down into the sea, with it. So the Lord

took the form of a boar, went into the sea, slayed the

demon Hiranyaksha and brought back the mother earth.

This was the purpose of the avatara as a boar.

 

4) The fourth avatara was that of Narasimha. You must

be well aware of the story of Hiranya and his son

Prahlada. Prahlada told Hiranya that the Lord is present

everywhere. He is there even in a small grass, even in a

pillar.

 

So Hiranya wanted to break a pillar and see whether the

Lord was there. When Hiranya kicked the pillar, Lord

appeared as Narasimha, came out of the pillar and Killed

him.

 

The fifth avatara was that of Vamana. He went to the

demon Mahabali, as a small boy; and requested only for

that much land which he would measure in three steps.

When Mahabali granted his boon, He grew into

Trivikrama and measured the whole earth and above. So

this avatara is called as Vamana avatara. Vamana in

Sanskrit means a dwarf.

 

6) The next one, i.e., the sixth avatara was that of

Parasurama. In this avatara, He slayed the wicked kings,

all over the world, to protect dharma.

 

7) The seventh avatara was that of Rama. The Ramayana

is too well known, and I need not repeat here the purpose

of this avatara.

 

8) The eighth avatara was that of Balarama, who was the

elder brother of Krishna.

 

9) The ninth avatara was that of Krishna - too well

known.

 

10) The tenth avatara is yet to materialise. This is called

the avatara of Kalki, when the Lord will come on a

horse, at the end of the Kaliyuga.

 

So, these are the ten avataras.

 

Q. You have briefly told me about the ten avataras. Where I

can get more details?

 

A. Since the purpose of our talk is philosophy, I am not

going into details, regarding the ten avataras. You can

read about them in Vishnu Purana, Bhagavata, Ramayana

and Mahabharata.

 

Q. What are the four yugas?

 

A. 1) The first yuga is called Krita yuga. In that yuga,

people would be highly religious, follow the principles of

dharma, vedas and sastras.

 

2) The second yuga is Treta yuga. In this yuga, practice

of dharma gets diminished.

 

3) The third yuga is Dvapara yuga. The practice of

dharma in this yuga gets further diminished.

 

4) The fourth and the last yuga is Kaliyuga. Here the

practice of dharma is at its worst; adharma flourishes

unabated.

 

So, these are the four yugas. After every cycle of four

yugas, there will be a great deluge (pralaya). After the

deluge, again the cycle of the four yugas starts. The

cycle of four yugas is unending.

 

Q. What are the characteristics of the four yugas?

 

A. There is a simile about the practice of dharma in the four

yugas. Dharma is compared to a holy cow. This cow

has four legs, i.e., it is perfect in Krita yuga.

 

In the second yuga, namely, Treta yuga, the cow has,

only three legs, i.e., dharma starts diminishing.

 

In the third yuga, which is Dvapara yuga, the cow of

dharma has only two legs.

 

And lastly in Kali yuga the holy cow is left with only one

leg. This is a simile, to illustrate how dharma goes on

diminishing, yuga after yuga.

 

Q. Are these ten avataras only, called Vibhava?

 

A. No. These are the more important or principal avataras.

 

Q. What are the other avataras then, apart from these?

 

A. Apart from these ten principal avataras there are

innumerable avataras like Padmanabha, Hayagriva, Hamsa

(Swan) and even a small mango tree.

 

Q. Are there any further classifications of these avataras?

 

A. Yes, in a way, we can divide them as primary or

important and secondary avataras.

 

Q. What are the primary avataras?

 

A. The primary avataras are those ten described earlier. Out

of these, even Parasurama avatara and Balarama avatara

are considered secondary.

 

Q. What do you mean by secondary avatara?

 

A. The secondary avataras are of two kinds:

 

1) where the Lord, enters a Jivatma, with His form;

 

2) where the Lord, without entering a Jivatma, in His

own form, gives him extraordinary divine powers.

 

Q. What are the examples of secondary avataras, where the

Lord enters Jivatmas, in His own form?

 

A. Such avataras are like Parasurama and Balarama.

 

These avataras were taken for specific purposes. The

Parasurama avatara was for the purpose of destroying the

kings who were practicing adharma. Balarama avatara

was to be of service and assistance to Krishna.

 

Q. What are the types of secondary avataras, where the Lord,

without entering Jivatmas in His own form gives them

extraordinary powers?

 

A. We have avataras like Vyasa, Brahma and Siva, where

the Lord gives them extraordinary powers, without

entering in His own form.

 

Q So, how many types of Vibhava avataras are there?

 

A. To sum up, among the Vibhava avataras, there are two

types- 1) The first set is called primary or important

avataras. 2) The second set is called subsidiary or

secondary avataras.

 

These secondary avataras are further subdivided into two

kinds:-

 

1) Where the Lord enters into Jivatmas, in His own form.

 

2) Where the Lord does not enter Jivatmas, in His own

form; but gives them extraordinary powers.

 

Q. What is the fourth form of the Lord?

 

A. The fourth form of the Lord is called Antaryami. The

Paramatma or the Lord lives within the heart of the

chetana. The Lord takes the minute form and resides in

the heart of the human being or animal, along with the

Jivatma himself. So, this form of the Lord is called

Antaryami or "One who controls from inside".

 

Q. What is the fifth form of the Lord?

 

A. The fifth form is called Archa avatara. That is, where the

Lord is worshipped in Srirangam, Tirupati, Kanchipuram

and other temples.

 

Q. What are the Divya Desas?

 

A. As I told you earlier, we have ten Alwars, besides Andal

and Madhurakavi. The verses they have sung in praise of

the Lord, are called Divya Prabanda. Now, the places

having temples, which have been sung by the Alwars, are

called Divya Desas.

 

Q. How many Divya Desas are there?

 

A. We have 108 Divya Desas. Out of these, now we cannot

worship in two places. These are Sri Vaikunta

(Paramapada) and Milky Ocean.

 

Q. Are there other temples, which are considered equally

holy and sacred?

 

A. Yes, we have 1) Tirunarayanapuram (Melkote), 2)

Mannargudi, 3) Sriperumpudur, and other places which

are considered equally holy and sacred.

 

Q. What about the temples in other places, villages or towns,

which have not been sung by Alwars?

 

A. There also, the Lord does exist and is of the same

sanctity, divinity and importance. So far as the Lord's

presence is concerned, there is no difference absolutely,

between any temples, whether they are Divya Desas or

not.

 

In any temple, in any village or town, where Lord

Narayana is installed and worshipped, He is of the same

form and He manifests Himself in full. So, this form of

manifestation in temples is called archa avatara.

 

Q. How many kinds of such temples are there?

 

A. There are four such kinds of temples.

 

Q. What are these?

 

A. 1) The first category consiFrom 75041.3037 Fri Sep 6

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Sri Gopala Vimsathi of Swami Desikan : Part 3

Message-ID: <960906221237_75041.3037_GHJ85-1

Status: RO

 

Verse 6: Devaki"s Darling infant & Madhura's blessing

 

VRAJA YOSHIDAPAANGHA VEDANEEYAM

MADHURAABHAGYAM ANANYA BHOGGYAMEEDEH I

VASUDEVAVADHOO STHANANDHAYAM TATH

KIMAPI BRAHMA KISORABHAVA DHRUSYAM II

 

The young girls of Gokulam look at this lovely child

of Yasodha with great affection. Their glances enter him

like arrows and makes him subservient to them.

He is the great fortune of the city of Northern Madhurai.

He , who was born there is the object of delectable

experience for the sages , who do not covet anything else

in this world. Right from his infant stage, when he was

breast fed by his natural mother Devaki in the prison ,

he has been the essence of beauty in all the three worlds.

I salute and offer my tribute to this supreme being known

as Gopalan .

 

Verse 7 : Reflection of Gopalan as the one who dragged the mortar

 

PARIVARTHITHA KANDHARAM BHAYENA

SMITHA PULLADHARA PALLAVAM SMARAAMI I

VITAPITHVA NIRAASAKAM KAYOSCCHITH

VIPULOLOOKALA KARSHAKAM KUMARAM II

 

I meditate on that child Gopala , who dragged the big

mortar to which he was tied by his angry mother Yasodha.

She wanted to teach him a lesson for stealing butter .

As Yasodha went away , he checked around to make sure that

she was out of sight and then pulled the tied mortar to the garden .

He smiled with a sense of satisfaction that he duped his

mother once again and his lips were rosy with that joy .

He dragged the mortar further and went between two Marutha

trees . The shock of the collision with the mortar broke the twin trees

and the the sons of Kubera , who stood as the trees in

the garden of the Lord got released from their curse and regained their

original bodies . I offer my worship to that blessed child ,

who freed the sons of Kubera from their existence as

twin trees .

 

Verse 8: Power of Swami Desikan's meditation on Rajagopalan

 

NIKATESHU NISAAMAYAAMI NITYAM

NIGAMAANTHAI : ADHUNAAPI MRUKYAMAANAM I

YAMALAARJUNA DHRUSHTA BALA KEHLIM

YAMUNAA SAKSHIKA YAVVANAM YUVAANAM II

 

Vedas are still searching for Him; His leelas were seen by the

twin Marutha trees in His backyard . even after they were released

from their state as trees , the sons of Kubera did not want to

get back to their home , since they wanted to enjoy some more

of His Bala Leelas . The river Yamuna , the daughter of Surya was

a joyous witness to all his playful deeds that took place on her

sands and banks . I see that wonderful young Gopala next to me

always . ( This is a blessing that Swami Desikan earned as a result

of his meditation on Rajagopalan ) .

 

Verse 9 : Salutation to the power of the Universe

 

PADHAVEEM ADHAVEEYASEEM VIMUKTEH

ATAVEE SAMPADHAM AMBHUVAHAYANTHEEM I

ARUNAADHARA SAABHILAASHA VAMSAAM

KARUNAAM KAARANA MAANUSHEEM BHAJAAMI II

 

I worship the most merciful Gopala , who is the root

cause of the creation, sustenance and destruction of this

universe ; He is the one , who revealed to us the easy to

practise route of Prapatthi as the short road to Moksham .

He is the rejuvenating , rain-bearing cloud that enhanced the

wealth and well being of the citizens of Brindhaavanam . The

flute that rests on His red lips during the time of His playing

appears to be deeply eager to taste the sweetness of his

mouth . I salute this embodiment of mercy known as

Venugopalan .