Jnana and bhakti

[Guest guest]

Hello all,

 

And thanks to Mani for subscribing me. I'm new to this list, and have both a

personal and an academical interest in Vaishnava theology and praxis. With

apologies to all for bringing up a subject which may be clear to everyone

already (and perhaps has already been discussed on the list?), I would like

to ask a question:

 

The dual focus of this list (and of the beautiful Sri Vaishnava home page)

on devotional sentiment (as in Alvar poetry) and Upanishadic philosophy

strongly appeals to me. Now, I wonder to which extent this reflects a

conscious balancing of these two elements within Sri Vaishnava tradition

itself. To put it in other words, how is the relationship between the quest

for aatmavidyaa and the development of bhakti towards the Lord viewed? Is

gnosis of the Upanishadic kind a necessary prerequisite for truly

transcendental devotion (as could be argued from, say, Bhagavadgita 18.54),

or is it possible to attain salvation even without gnosis, simply by

faithful worship (as could be argued from, say, 13.25 of the same text)? And

as an offshoot of this: if such a balancing does exist on the theological

level, is it matched on the practical level, e.g. by emphasis on both

yogic/meditative techniques *and* more devotional practices like arcanam,

chanting of stotrams, etc -- or is one element favoured over the other?

 

Any response to these questions would be greatly appreciated, as would all

references to suitable reading material (English or Sanskrit please -- I

haven't yet found anyone to teach me Tamil, though I'm keen to learn!).

 

Thanks in advance,

Martin Gansten

[Guest guest]

At 11:19 PM 11/4/96 +0100, you wrote:

>Hello all,

>

>And thanks to Mani for subscribing me. I'm new to this list, and have both a

>personal and an academical interest in Vaishnava theology and praxis. With

>apologies to all for bringing up a subject which may be clear to everyone

>already (and perhaps has already been discussed on the list?), I would like

>to ask a question:

>

>The dual focus of this list (and of the beautiful Sri Vaishnava home page)

>on devotional sentiment (as in Alvar poetry) and Upanishadic philosophy

>strongly appeals to me. Now, I wonder to which extent this reflects a

>conscious balancing of these two elements within Sri Vaishnava tradition

>itself. To put it in other words, how is the relationship between the quest

>for aatmavidyaa and the development of bhakti towards the Lord viewed? Is

>gnosis of the Upanishadic kind a necessary prerequisite for truly

>transcendental devotion (as could be argued from, say, Bhagavadgita 18.54),

>or is it possible to attain salvation even without gnosis, simply by

>faithful worship (as could be argued from, say, 13.25 of the same text)? And

>as an offshoot of this: if such a balancing does exist on the theological

>level, is it matched on the practical level, e.g. by emphasis on both

>yogic/meditative techniques *and* more devotional practices like arcanam,

>chanting of stotrams, etc -- or is one element favoured over the other?

>

>Any response to these questions would be greatly appreciated, as would all

>references to suitable reading material (English or Sanskrit please -- I

>haven't yet found anyone to teach me Tamil, though I'm keen to learn!).

>

>Thanks in advance,

>Martin Gansten

 

Martin,

 

to start with, I like your questions. Traditionally, scholars tend to sway

to the view that "Advaita steals the heart of Upanisads, and Visistadvaita

gets closer to the Bhagawadgita and Sutras". Visistadvaitins contend that

their system is well established as per the prasthanatrayas - Bhagawadgita,

Upanisads and Brahmasutras.

 

As per Visistadvaita - there are two paths which are certified as valid

means to Summum Bonum (Moksha) - 1) Bhaktiyoga 2) Prapatti. Bhakti yoga is

the one which is explained from the 7th chapter onwards,( 9th, 12th, 18th )

chapters. 18-64 is similar to the last verse of 9th chapter. This

Bhaktiyoga has two subbordinate processes - Karma Yoga and Jnana Yoga.

Either through Karmayoga or Jnanayoga, an aspirant has to attain

"atma-sakthatkara" ie. the realization of the self (jeevatma) who is

different from and similar to God and is an aprithaksiddha (invalid

(non-existent) without God), attribute of God. AFter atmasakshatkara, one

attains bhaktiyoga in continued meditation - which takes three steps -

parabhakti (seeing Lord), parajnana (meeting) and paramabhakti(a stage when

the seeker in his deep devotion gets the fear that he would lose sight of

him- who is such brilliant essence of this universe). AFter such stages one

is supposed to reach Sriman Narayana, and become similar to him and enter

the state of eternal service to him.

 

This is a path followed by a person who - is 1) capable of such meditational

practice 2) and can wait so many possible lives to continue that practice of

meditation to attain the lord

 

Even to start, maintain and complete bhaktiyoga, an aspirant needs to

surrender for those respective purposes! (since all these cannot be attained

by anything other than grace of the lord).

 

On the otherhand, if one who is not capable of going through this mammoth

long process of bhaktiyoga, can do a prapatti (surrender) through the help

of an Acharya, and attain the same benefit. Here, the aspirant is using

prapatti as a means instead of bhaktiyoga, and making Lord himself of the

path and the goal. This, surprisingly is a valid method as per

visistadvaita - and is supported in various Rigvedic texts. In fact -

Ahirbudhyna samhita explains a vedic mantra from Taittiriya aranyaka -

"Tasmaadom iti...Atmanam Yunjeeta" as an explanation of prapatti with 5

components (angas). The difference being, a prapanna gives up even the

responsibility of his protection to Lord, clearly understanding that the

Lord is behind all his capabilities and only due to Him does he possess all

those. A bhaktiyogi, on the otherhand continues to experience the joy of

the process of bhaktiyoga and does not mind the delay in attainment of the

goal, knowing that the Lord is his friend, philosopher and guide helping him

attain the goal. He does not give up the responsibility of attainment to

God, but seeks his help in that process.

 

 

 

Please refer to Vaishnavism - by SMS Chari (Motilal Banarsidas - available

also at South Asia book house - Columbia Mussouri). This book goes into

great detail to answer your questions with all the necessary PRAMANAS -

testimonies from Vedas, Agamas, Upanisads etc. Dr. N.S. Anantharangachar's

thesis on Visistadvaita is a good source and unfortunately is out of print.

 

If you search through - archives of this network you can find a number of

interesting articles related to this subject.

 

the practices such as - archanam, namasamkirtanam, etc. can lead to either

bhaktiyoga or prapatti eventually and thus are ancillaries to the main paths.

 

I am sure learned folks on this network have a lot to add to this.

 

Please do describe your purpose, ie. are you writing some papers on this

subject? and how did you get interested in this subject.

 

 

Daasan,

 

Krishna Kalale

Krishna Kalale

619-658-5612 (phone)

619-658-2115 (fax)

[Guest guest]

Many thanks to Krishna Kalale and Mohan Sagar for their replies to my

questions. (Any further elucidation is of course more than welcome.) If I

have understood these replies correctly, Srivaishnavas consider *prapatti*

to be a process separate from and easier than (and hence, superior to?)

*bhaktiyoga*, and in this process of prapatti there is no need for gnosis

(aatmavidyaa or aatmaanubhuuti) in order to attain salvation; the Lord will

personally deliver a surrendered soul at death even if he has not realized

the aatman. Please do point out any mistakes I may have made in this short

summary.

 

I have previously encountered the terms Vadakalai and Thenkalai. Are these

synonymous with the Kanchi and Srirangam schools alluded to by Mr. Sagar,

and if so, which is which? What are the main differences between the two

schools -- or, if that is too far-reaching a question, where can I learn

more about them?

 

To answer Mr. Kalale, although religious studies and indology are my fields

of occupation, I am not writing anything on Srivaishnavism at present, but

ask rather from a sadhaka's point of view. (The academical 'chalk flavour'

which I fear may adhere to the phrasing of my questions is unintentional and

results from habit.) In this context, I would also be interested to know the

Srivaishnava view(s) on converts: are non-Hindus (by birth) accepted at

all, and if so, fully or only to some degree? Has the massive spread of

Bengal Vaishnavism outside India during the past decades changed anything

here? What about non-Vaishnava Hindus who may be attracted to Srivaishnavism

-- how does one go about converting? By initiation? Is any initiation (apart

from the standard upanaayanam) required of those born in Srivaishnava families?

 

Whew... I have many more questions, but these will have to do for now. Thank

you all for tolerating my ignorance, and for educating me. Any more light

shed on my original question on "jnana and bhakti" would still be appreciated.

 

Regards,

Martin Gansten

[Guest guest]

Dear Martin and others,

 

The relationship between jnAna and bhakti is a

very important issue in the process of sAdhana.

Krishna has addressed the issue of whether

self-knowledge to the point of the experience

of the bliss of the self is a necessary prerequisite

to jnAna.

 

Mohan from Colorado has also addressed one part

of this question. However, I think some of his

points may be misunderstood if taken literally.

 

For the prapanna (one who has surrendered everything

to the Lord), there is no *need* for meditation as

a means to liberation, but meditation can still

be performed as a natural expression of devotion

and is certainly beneficial to one's well-being.

One must be careful in performing this meditation

not out of an egoistic attitude but as an outgrowth

of love and service.

 

That being said, meditation in the Upanishadic

sense can always (and probably should always)

be a part of the devotional process. Nammalvar,

whose life and poetry furnishes the finest example

of self-surrender for followers of the Vedas,

was involved in deep meditation of the Lord

nearly all his life. The panca-kAla-prAkriya

(five-fold division of daily duties) of the

Sri Vaishnavas includes yoga as an integral

element.

 

At the very minimum, a basic knowledge of the

nature of the self is requisite for the prapanna.

Our acharyas hold that knowledge of the nature

of the self, if not of the self itself, is

necessary for the surrender to truly be complete.

This may be termed 'sesatva-jnAna', or the

understanding that the individual exists solely

for the purpose of the glory of the Lord and

merely operates as His mode.

 

Mani

[Guest guest]

Dear Mr.Gansten,

I will like to just answer one question from your recent mail.

Regarding Bengali version of Vaishnavism and ours. From my reading a book on

Sri.Prabhupadha, ISKCON, I realized that they follow identically the standards

set by "Srimad Bhagavatham" and the example set by Sri.Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

Sankirthana, Upanyaasa and profound bhakthi and "Sarvam Krishnaapanam" are the

major tools for Prapatthi in Bengali Vaishnavism and in the south also it is

followed implicitly without any ambiguity.

 

A book on SriVaishnavism(Title: Vaishnavam) written in Tamizh by Sri.Senthil

Thuravi is quite comprehensive in offering insight into Sanathana Dharma as a

whole, sub-sects and greater details on Sri Vaishnavism along with beautiful

slokas in Sanskrit and Tamizh. Hope you can find this book and have someone to

read it out for you.

 

With Regards,

 

Sudarsan

[Guest guest]

Mani wrote:

>

>At the very minimum, a basic knowledge of the

>nature of the self is requisite for the prapanna.

 

 

Question:

What happens to a person who goes through

the motions of bara nyasam when he is young

and under the control of parents, but after

that caught up in day-to-day life and never

thinks of the Lord, nature of self or such

things? Would he attain mOksham at the end

of his present life, per our theology? If so,

is a basic knowledge of self a requisite?

Please note that my question is not about

what is desirable.

 

 

Thanks, Dileepan

 

-- Dileepan

[Guest guest]

Mani wrote:

>

>At the very minimum, a basic knowledge of the

>nature of the self is requisite for the prapanna.

 

 

Question:

What happens to a person who goes through

the motions of bara nyasam when he is young

and under the control of parents, but after

that caught up in day-to-day life and never

thinks of the Lord, nature of self or such

things?

 

 

Almost anyone born as a human being whether as Hitler or Mother

Theresa would have thought about these things at some time in their

lives. The only difference is whether the conclusion that one comes

to is correct or not. In a case of a scenario as stated by Sri

Dileepan above, Sriman Narayana will see to it that at some time in

that person's life the 5 angas will come to gether and the process of

Prapatti will be complete. It will be the same situation as with

bhara nyasam for the temple cow or elephant. The only thing that the

person who has had this bhara nyasam has to watch out for is

"Bhagavata apacharam" and "anya devata aradhana". If he avoids these

two in the course of his life, or having committed them, regrets

having done that even in the last moment of his life, he will still

go to Vaikuntham. When Bharanyasam is administered by an Acharya of

the highest calibre, Sriman Narayana has no choice but to accept the

dictates of the Acharya. In fact at that point it is only Sriman

Narayana who talks through the Acharya.

 

 

Would he attain mOksham at the end

of his present life, per our theology? If so,

is a basic knowledge of self a requisite?

Please note that my question is not about

what is desirable.

 

 

Thanks, Dileepan

 

-- Dileepan

Jaganath.