nArAyananE, namakkE

[Guest guest]

I enjoyed the posting from Sri Murali and the interpretations quoted by Sri

Thirumalai Anandappali Varadhan. On a quick review I submit to you all my own

interpretations based on certain commentaries i read for this.

 

 

On Aug 6, 9:31am, Thirumalai Anandanpillai wrote:

> Re:

> RANGASWAMY wrote:

>

> > Finally, the most significant contribution of Sri Andal is the

> > beautiful

> > portrayal of the all pervasiveness of Lord Narayana through the

> > salutations

> > "UnnakkE NamAzhchaivOm" and "NarayaNanE NammakE ParatharuvAn"

>

> >

>

> The use of NaaraayaNanE and namakkE is significant in the paasuram.Why

> should Andal use naaraayaNanE instead of naaraayaNan?

> Why should she use namakkE instead of namakku?

>

> Our poorvaachaaryaas say that the use of naaraayaNanE in this paasuram

> is

> to give us the message that it is NaaraayaNan *alone* who can give us

> mOksha. There is nothing we do, or nothing we can do that will do the

> same.

 

While it has been established by Sri Andal in th eprevious pAsurams that Sriman

narAyanan is th eonly daivam who is worthy of worshipping (ie meaning HE is the

only giver of mOksham and that only thing to get from HIM is mOksham). One can

goto these words "give" and "get" and say that if HE is the only one who can

give and nothing (charanAgathi or prapatti) we can do will do the same, then

why must one expect "this moksham" or anything else to be "given". HE knows the

best so why not leave it to HIM ? Why ponder over whether our actions will

"get" us the mOksham or something else or not ?

 

ie Even if one says that it is logically provable that charanAgathi or prapatti

alone may not yield to moksham, then why one must expect this '"get" moksham

to us through HIS grace alone"', and why not leave it to HIM and feel helpless

as per the last anga of prapatti and wait for HIS deliverance ? I donot know

the exact verbattum of poorvachariar's vyAkyAnam for this (by the way is this

by Sri PV Pillai ?).

 

The closest meaning of "nArAyananE" both in Tamil language and here in the

context of the sequence and the flow of all these pasurams of thiruppAvai is

such that "HE Himself" (than HE only) will teach us the way to mOksham ie parai

tharuvAn. parai tharuvAn means "will teach us the way". If so, is there a way

that can lead to moksham? and if HE is gonna deliver this without any

realisation from our part then why must ANDAL say that there is a way that HE

will HIMself teach us ? If so, is there an other way or upAya ?

 

Yes! Agian in the flow of these pasaurams the Lord here means Lord

Krishna. (It seems this gopiyar or nappinai) is aware ahead of time, that

charama slokam is to be delivered. HE (Lord Krishna) did teach to all and those

gOpiyars as well afterwards through Srimad bagwad Geetha the way through "Mam

ekAm charaNam vraja" ("Surender to ME ...") at the end. The very fact that this

is at end of Srimad bagwad Geetha is such that this is the *most* important

purushArththam (prapatti) one "may" perform in his life that will lead to

mOksham.

 

ANDAL thiruvadikaLE charaNam

Sampath Rengarajan

[Guest guest]

> ie Even if one says that it is logically provable that charanAgathi or

> prapatti

> alone may not yield to moksham, then why one must expect this '"get"

> moksham

> to us through HIS grace alone"', and why not leave it to HIM and feel

> helpless

> as per the last anga of prapatti and wait for HIS deliverance ? I

> donot know

> the exact verbattum of poorvachariar's vyAkyAnam for this (by the way

> is this

> by Sri PV Pillai ?).

 

Yes.. part of the commentary is from Periyavachchaan

PiLLai.(moovaayirappadi).

Part of it is from aaraayirappadi too - Azhagiya maNavaaLap perumaaL

naayanaar.

You are right.. We are helpless. He is the upaayam and the upEyam.

 

You are also right on when u say 'He Himself' is a better wording then

'He only'.

> Yes! Agian in the flow of these pasaurams the Lord here means Lord

> Krishna. (It seems this gopiyar or nappinai) is aware ahead of time,

> that

> charama slokam is to be delivered. HE (Lord Krishna) did teach to all

> and those

> gOpiyars as well afterwards through Srimad bagwad Geetha the way

> through "Mam

> ekAm charaNam vraja" ("Surender to ME ...") at the end. The very fact

> that this

> is at end of Srimad bagwad Geetha is such that this is the *most*

> important

> purushArththam (prapatti) one "may" perform in his life that will lead

> to

> mOksham.

>

 

Not to be nitpicking, but when you say 'surrender to me'

is the upaayam, then the whole meaning of prapatti is lost. The

'performance'

of prapatti is not what leads to mOksham. We have discussed this before

on the list. (pithaavukku putran ezhuththu vaanguaapOlE..)

 

 

aazhvaar emperumaanaar jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saranam

Varadhan

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Varadhan, thanks for your personal note and as well as this.

Prior to going into the subject i wanna make a small note. Actually I

have written that "in sequence of all pasurams of thiruppavai prior to

this pasuram", it is to be read that the sequence of all pasurams of

thiruppavai itself, in one way. On a second way it is also to be seen

that the sequence of periyazhwar thirumozhi prior to this thirppavai is

the premisese for presenting the "bAlyam" stages of Lord Krishna and

establishing that HE is the only ultimate. And that ANDAL had the

"mindset" already from her father's pasurams that were delivered

chronologically prior to that. There are certain flow among all the

4000 pasurrams the way in which they are delivered. We discussed a

small example on pasurams of thiru viN Nagaram as to how nammalwar's

last and thirumangai's first were connected in one sequential incident

of vamana thiruvikrama avatharam. Similarly periyazhwars' pasuram and

andal's pasuram are also connected in flow and thiruppavai researcheers

may want to (already are) take closer look at this.

 

Coming to the first way,and her own pasurams in thirup pavai

the vyAkyAnams, it is said that the first pasuram itself

conveys the entire thiruppvai itself by presenting both the "prApyam"

and the "prAbagam" in it. ie the premeises, introduction and the

conclusion are presented as an moderen day "executive summary" in this

pAsuram itself. The "prApyam" is delivered by the notion to get

together in the first two lines in margazi thingAL to be with Sri

Krishna and the "prAbagam" is presented by "nArAyananE parai tharu vAn"

(as Narayana HE (Sri Krishna) HIMself, will prtesent the "upAyam").

Hence it is also conceived that if one can chant even this one pasuram

alone they will get the benefits of chanting the entire thiruppAvai.

Atleast one must bring the thought to their mind on this pasuram and

its meaning and it is enough even if they cannot chant this in tamil

and it is said that they will also get the benefit of the chanting the

entire thiruppavai.

 

>

> > Yes! Agian in the flow of these pasaurams the Lord here means Lord

> > Krishna. (It seems this gopiyar or nappinai) is aware ahead of time,

> > that

> > charama slokam is to be delivered. HE (Lord Krishna) did teach to all

> > and those

> > gOpiyars as well afterwards through Srimad bagwad Geetha the way

> > through "Mam

> > ekAm charaNam vraja" ("Surender to ME ...") at the end. The very fact

> > that this

> > is at end of Srimad bagwad Geetha is such that this is the *most*

> > important

> > purushArththam (prapatti) one "may" perform in his life that will lead

> > to

> > mOksham.

> >

>

> Not to be nitpicking, but when you say 'surrender to me'

> is the upaayam, then the whole meaning of prapatti is lost. The

> 'performance'

> of prapatti is not what leads to mOksham. We have discussed this before

> on the list. (pithaavukku putran ezhuththu vaanguaapOlE..)

>

 

Yes you are right ! Logically this statment of mine can be proved

wrong. I am wrong in presenting this concept of prapatti by these mere

statments and without any details. I was not focussing to go into the

debate between our two paths. The object of my post was to present that

our school also derives from the same words, the authority for our path

while not contradicting the existance of your path. To discuss about

prapatti and answer your question, I have presented in detail, in my

own of account of my own undertyaking of baranyAsam at Srirangam

earlier in this forum. The only and only upAyam is bhakti mArgham. But

then we "realise" (due to HIS own grace this realisation takes place)

at this moment that our souls have been HIS belonging all the time and

that it rightfully belong in there only (with HIM) and therein submit

ourselves and surrender to HIM and request HIM one last time with the

"I" in mind, to substitute bhakthi mArgam the "upAyam" all by "HIMself"

and deliver us the eternal status for this soul with HIM.

 

While doing so we undertake to observe some protocols also. The whole

"process" is known as prapatti. Here agian if you go into detail of

this process, we request the LORD HIMself to be the upAyam replacing

the bhakthi mArgam (as it is extremely difficult for our souls to

accomplish). So one can say that the word "prapatti" (meaning

surredner) is not an upAya by itself. HOWEVER, We do beleive that Lord

agrees to be the "upAya" HIMself in response to our undertaking of

prapatti (ie both surrender and and undertakings of protocols) at this

moment as conferred by the performing achArYAL who is the

representative of the LORD and has the "say" to confer this through a

dialogue with the lord by a sequence of slokams (manthrams) in a

"request" and "answer" format. Actually achARYAL tells back to us that

"Yes, the Lord has now accepted your prapatti and will deliver you the

required status at the end of this life for you". HE also waives the

requirement for anthima sruthi and assures that there is no need to

take any special effort to chant anything or perform anymore yagas to

get the anthima nyAnam.

 

 

Hence we end up calling prapatti process as prapatti itself.

Since an upAyam is attained through this process (we beleive the Lord

gave the word to us through acharyAL at this moment) it can also be

called technically as an upAyam as whole (process). In Sri Ramanuja

vaibavam Lord VARADHAR answers that "prapattiyum upAyamE" in those

questions and answers. The thenkalai schools also accept this

conversation of Lord Varadhar as real. But then what is their vyAkyAnam

or interpretation for this. Can you or someother thenkalai bAgwathALs,

please explain. I am requesting this just as an info and not as a

challenge. Finally if you will agree with Lord varadhar's words as

truth, then Will you allow me also to call prapatti as an upAyam and

repeat Lord Varadhar's words whatever may the interpretation from one's

school for that?

 

Sri Varadhan, I am thrilled at your intelligence and your devotion for

prabandam. It is our bAgyam to be in the company of those of you and

others who are so closely associated with our achAryAls like Sri

prathivAthi bayankaram SwamigaL. I look forward to reading more from

you. Please forgive me if I have offended your or anyone else's

sentiments in writing these infant observations of mine. It is great

to read from your quotes from Sri Periya vAchchan pillai's vyAkyAnams

for thiruppAvai which I dnot have. It is "the authority" for all

vyAkyAnams undoubtedly as we consider Sri PIllai HIMself to be the

incarnation of the of thiruk KaNNa managi perumAL.

 

azhwAR emperumAnAr thiru vadikaLE charaNAm

ANDAL thiruvadikaLE charaNam

adiyEn

Sampth Rengarajan

[Guest guest]

Sampath Rengarajan wrote:

> Yes you are right ! Logically this statment of mine can be proved

> wrong. I am wrong in presenting this concept of prapatti by these mere

>

> statments and without any details. I was not focussing to go into the

> debate between our two paths.

 

I did not intend to do that either. I just wanted to clarify what my

understandingof prapatti is.

>

>

> Hence we end up calling prapatti process as prapatti itself.

> Since an upAyam is attained through this process (we beleive the Lord

> gave the word to us through acharyAL at this moment) it can also be

> called technically as an upAyam as whole (process).

 

Thanks for your explanation about baaranyaasam and your understandingof

prapatti. I have a question - Can I consider baaranyaasam as a vyaaja?

 

> In Sri Ramanuja

> vaibavam Lord VARADHAR answers that "prapattiyum upAyamE" in those

> questions and answers. The thenkalai schools also accept this

> conversation of Lord Varadhar as real. But then what is their

> vyAkyAnam

> or interpretation for this. Can you or someother thenkalai bAgwathALs,

>

> please explain. I am requesting this just as an info and not as a

> challenge. Finally if you will agree with Lord varadhar's words as

> truth, then Will you allow me also to call prapatti as an upAyam and

> repeat Lord Varadhar's words whatever may the interpretation from

> one's

> school for that?

>

 

To be honest, this is the first time I have heard about Varadaraajar

saying'prapattiyum upaayamE'. Can you give me some material on this -

just

for my understanding.Aazhwaar emerumaanaar jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saranam,

 

Varadhan