Panel Discussion

[Guest guest]

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha:

 

 

 

This is in reference to Sri M.K. Sudarshan 's views/suggestions for panel

discussion.

I would like to draw your attention to Sri Ramanujar arulicheytha "NITYAM"

This works deals cleary with mundane day to day activities (and no philospohy)

and includes prescriptions for everything we do in our any single day. It

directs you how to wake up and, have shower and how to ggo to bed. What ever we

do to this day in terms of vaithika kramam is based on this work. So what I want

to try to bring is that Srivaishnavism has quick fixes and it is wise for us to

find out about that instead of ruling out the possibility. About 15 or 20 years

back, Sri U Ve PB Annangrachar Swami was interviewed in All India Radio and

one of the questions was how can we follow all the relegious duties in the midst

of modern day's challlenges. His reply was "Every morning have shower and stand

in front of your God and chant

'Chittran Chirugale' and 'Vangat Kadal Kadainthaintha Madhavanai' (just these

2 pasurams) that is it "

This was advocated by the Swami as the bare minimum a Srivaishnavite could do

and still could be guilt free. Over and above this what you do is kind of

optional. I thought this was wonderful. Again this is only a beginning since

we are constantly asking this question "how to adjust or make changes to our

lives ? " to our Acharyals and they have been addressing these most practical

point of view. I would also like you to look at how Sri Ramanujar had clearly

broken the previous sampradhayam. He taught the Thiru Ashtakshara manthiram to

every one who wanted to learn without discrimination. Sri Manavala mamunigal has

praised

"EPPuviyil Asai udaiyorkellam Ariyargal Kurumennu Pesi Varambaruthar Pin"

which means he broke the sampradayam. Ordinary persons are incapable of doing

such an act.

Varambu Arukka namakku - we need to have somone like Sri Ramamnuja. It is not

easy or simple but an Acharya will be capable and we should be fortunate to have

such one again in this time, Because CHANGE IS INEVITABLE.

Please also take a look at how Sri Azhagiya singhar Swami was able to build the

Rajagopuram for Periya Perumal at Koil (Srirangam) He probably was not the

first to start thinking about this great task. Many great people in the past

could not achieve the feat just because it is like breaking the tradition.

== At a purely philosophical level, SriVaishnavism thus can only offer us

== insights into "bhAgavath-dharma" a subject which only minds of a deeply

== spiritual or philosophical bent can understand and relish.

 

==Ramanuja's SriVaishnavism was not meant for "lOka-dharmA" but for

=="bhAgavata-dharmA" -- the "dharma" of those who have ceased to search for

==such things in life as "life-style", "1000 ways to win friends", "how to be

==a productive manager or great husband" etc. Ramanuja's Vaishnavism was meant

==for those who have learnt to look beyond the "practicality" of life and have

==instead begun the long search for the "Life they have all lost in living" !

 

This are simply not true since in the work "NITYAM" Sri Ramanujar has clearly

prescribed what an ordinary mind should do and what a spiritual mind could do

different.

 

It is really boils down to change and adaptation. When Sri Ramanuja first

started the practice of chanting Divya prabhandham in the temples it was not

accepted as such and it was considered breaking the laws. So I think it o.k.

make changes to SriVaishnavism as we know it - (sounds like some one already

said this -- this too "Dont end it - Mend it" So by doing this it will not

become "We are only fooling ourselves " that is also not right. The next

question is Who is to make changes to Srivaishnavism in order to suit our

lifestyle today. We need a solid Guru "Acharyan" who has the potential to do

just that. Of course we have them in plenty and Sri Anbil Swamy had recently

written all about it.

 

"Ethuvethu En Panni Ennathu ? Athuve Atcheyum EEde " - Nammalwar

 

"Nallum Pugaiyal, Vilakkal, Puthu Malaral, Neeral " -

Nammalwar

 

"Therithezhuthi Vasithum, kettum, Vannangi Vazhipattum, Poosithum

Pokkinen Pothu "

 

- Bakthisaran

 

Azhwar Emberumanar Jeeyar Thiruvadigale Charanam

Adiyen,

Muralli Vanamamalai

[Guest guest]

 

mvanamamalai [sMTP:mvanamamalai]

Thursday, August 21, 1997 3:51 PM

bhakti

Panel Discussion

 

What ever we

do to this day in terms of vaithika kramam is based on this work.=20

=20

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make !!

 

The key words you have used are "in terms of vaidika kramam" !!

 

The situation I was describing was one where we find living in strict =

"vaidika kramam" next to impossible ! How many of us can boldy and truly =

claim our life-styles comply with "vaidika-kramam"?

 

So what I want

to try to bring is that Srivaishnavism has quick fixes and it is wise =

for us to

find out about that instead of ruling out the possibility.=20

=20

Agree, I don't rule out the possibility that we can have "quick-fixes" =

to your "vaidika-kramam" .... only, by their inherent nature, =

quick-fixes can be termed neither "vaidika" nor "kramam" ! If we all =

spend our lives looking for "quick-fixes" who will come out with real =

"solutions" ?=20

=20

About 15 or 20 years

back, Sri U Ve PB Annangrachar Swami was interviewed in All India =

Radio and

one of the questions was how can we follow all the relegious duties in =

the midst

of modern day's challlenges. His reply was "Every morning have shower =

and stand

in front of your God and chant=20

'Chittran Chirugale' and 'Vangat Kadal Kadainthaintha Madhavanai' =

(just these

2 pasurams) that is it "=20

This was advocated by the Swami as the bare minimum a Srivaishnavite =

could do

and still could be guilt free. Over and above this what you do is kind =

of

optional. I thought this was wonderful.=20

 

I don't know in what exact context the most revered Sri.PBA Swami made =

the statement. So I dare not comment on it. I do not consider myself =

competent to react to statments made by such "mahAns". Let's not drag =

such great people into our informal drawing room conversations.

But if such a statement is to be made by anyone other than such =

"mahAn-s" I am afraid I would disagree wholly with it. In my opinion it =

would amount to a gross simplification of our traditions. It's like =

reducing everything in SriVaishnavism to a nice, well-rounded, =

comfortable formula ! It's nice and simple, no doubt, like all =

formulations are !=20

.. =20

=3D=3D At a purely philosophical level, SriVaishnavism thus can only =

offer us=20

=3D=3D insights into "bhAgavath-dharma" a subject which only minds of a =

deeply=20

=3D=3D spiritual or philosophical bent can understand and relish.=20

 

=3D=3DRamanuja's SriVaishnavism was not meant for "lOka-dharmA" but for=20

=3D=3D"bhAgavata-dharmA" -- the "dharma" of those who have ceased to =

search for=20

=3D=3Dsuch things in life as "life-style", "1000 ways to win friends", =

"how to be=20

=3D=3Da productive manager or great husband" etc. Ramanuja's Vaishnavism =

was meant=20

=3D=3Dfor those who have learnt to look beyond the "practicality" of =

life and have=20

=3D=3Dinstead begun the long search for the "Life they have all lost in =

living" !=20

 

This are simply not true since in the work "NITYAM" Sri Ramanujar has =

clearly

prescribed what an ordinary mind should do and what a spiritual mind =

could do

different. =20

 

I agree with you. But the problem is we live in an age where the source =

of much unhappiness for people is their "ordinariness"! It is then that =

the "ordinary" soul wanting to turn spritual succumbs to the temptation =

of quick-fixes and formulations !

=20

It is really boils down to change and adaptation. =20

 

I agree. But first should I not know deeply everyting there is to know =

about my religion and tradition and "vaidika kramam" before I start =

looking for change & quick-fixes=20

 

"Dont end it - Mend it" =20

So by doing this it will not

become "We are only fooling ourselves " that is also not right. =20

Muralli Vanamamalai=20

=20

By all means "mend it", my good friend, but make sure you don't "dent =

it" in the process !

[Mr M.K SUDARSHAN] =00=00

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Sudarshan,

 

I have a great deal of regard for you, your level of knowledge, and your

unique witty writing style. But, as I am somewhat responsible for the

panel's proposed topic of discussion, I am forced to express the following:

 

All that I had stated in my original posting was that I had been asked to

chair a panel discussion on our youth, and had asked for some suggestions

for specific topics that should be addressed. I do not think that I

mentioned anything about shortcuts, quick fixes, or alternate lifestyles.

But, since we somehow have come to this conclusion, here are some points in

return:

>Most young people outside India who are desirous of learning about

>SriVaishnavism begin with the premise that it is all about a branch of

>philosophy called "VisishtAdvaitam" (did you know that not once has

>SriRamanuja used this phrase in any of his works!).

 

This statement was true once, but is no longer. About a dozen or so years

ago, I began my search for SriVaishnavism by examining the esoteric

discussions on visishtAdvaita. But, I did so only because books on this

subject were the only ones written on SriVaishnavism at the time. Things

have changed greatly since then. Now thanks to such notables as Dr.

Narayanan, Patricia Mumme, Robert Lester, and our own Sri Anbil Ramaswamy,

along with a number of erudite writers in India, the youth of today have

access to a number of works on SV culture, tradition, and religious practice.

>The second premise is

>that the philosophy, and its attendent theology, by itself will provide for

>us simple and easy-to-digest answers for all the problems we face, or are

>likely to face, in the world and in our day-to-lives.

>

 

I strongly disagree with this. From my observations and interactions with

them, I have come to the conclusion that if Indian youth have inherited

anything of their parents, it is their sense of pragmatism and adaptability.

What else could explain their phenomenal success in their education and

careers. I do not think that any of them would be looking for quick fix,

cookbook answers to the problems of life, for indeed, they are smart enought

to know that there aren't any.

>Ramanuja's SriVaishnavism was not meant for "lOka-dharmA" but for

>"bhAgavata-dharmA" -- the "dharma" of those who have ceased to search for

>such things in life as "life-style", "1000 ways to win friends", "how to be

>a productive manager or great husband" etc. Ramanuja's Vaishnavism was meant

>for those who have learnt to look beyond the "practicality" of life and have

>instead begun the long search for the "Life they have all lost in living" !

>

 

Sri Murali's posting clearly illustrates otherwise.

 

Several years ago, I read a very interesting book called "Vedantic

Approaches to God." The author of this work, a comparitive religionist whose

name I cannot recall at the moment, objectively analyzed the three main

philosophies of India, dvaita, visishtAdvaita, and advaita. He came to the

conclusion that among the three, the visishtAdvaita vedAnta of Ramanuja was

the most logical, since it easily and seamlessly was able to intertwine

complex vedAnta (bhagavatha dharma?) with popularistic devotional belief

(loka dharma?).

 

To add to this, and taking an example from Sri Murali, if Ramanuja was

merely searching for this rare group of high level philosophers, then why

did he risk his own credibility and integrity to stand on top of a temple

tower revealing what up until then, was one of our tradition's most sacred

mantras? All of the biographies I have read on him projected him to be a

kind and magnanimous man. I doubt that he would have been so exclusionary

in his teachings.

>we must learn to fall back upon the "vyAkhyAnam-s" or

>commentaries of our great "purvAchAryA-s", litterateurs and poets in the

>SriVaishnava tradition --- beginning from the Alwars through poets like

>Swami Desikan, commentators like PeriAchAn pillai, to present day

>"upanyAsa-chakravartis" like Sri.Mukkur Lakshminarasimhachariar !

>

 

Wholeheartedly agreed. But, as our youth have neither the linguistic

fluency or even access to such in this country, we must seek the guidance of

the qualified individuals of this forum, including yourself, who have the

talent and skill for presenting these commentaries in a manner that can be

understood.

----

 

 

This posting is becoming quite long winded, and I apologize to all of you,

especially Mr. Sudarshan for making such bold statements. Mr. Sudarshan, if

you would like to continue with these discussions, I would suggest that we

do so outside this forum.

 

I hope that the strong views expressed in these postings do not discourage

anyone in their effort to bring the riches of our heritage to our youth. I

would like to re-express my invitation to all who are attending the

conference to encourage the youth of their community to attend and

participate in what I hope will be a productive panel discussion.

 

adiyEn,

 

Mohan

[Guest guest]

 

Mohan Sagar [sMTP:msagar]

Friday, August 22, 1997 8:34 AM

bhakti

RE: Panel Discussion

 

Dear Sri Sudarshan,

>Most young people outside India who are desirous of learning about

>SriVaishnavism begin with the premise that it is all about a branch of

>philosophy called "VisishtAdvaitam" (did you know that not once has

>SriRamanuja used this phrase in any of his works!).

>The second premise is

>that the philosophy, and its attendent theology, by itself will provide =

for

>us simple and easy-to-digest answers for all the problems we face, or =

are

>likely to face, in the world and in our day-to-lives.=20

 

I strongly disagree with this. =20

Several years ago, I read a very interesting book called "Vedantic

Approaches to God." . He came to the

conclusion that among the three, the visishtAdvaita vedAnta of Ramanuja =

was

the most logical, since it easily and seamlessly was able to intertwine

complex vedAnta (bhagavatha dharma?) with popularistic devotional belief

(loka dharma?).

Mr. Sudarshan, if

you would like to continue with these discussions, I would suggest that =

we

do so outside this forum.

adiyEn,

Mohan dear sri mohan sagar, it would be a pleasure to continue these =

discussions within or outside this forum . it will involve firstly =

defining 'loka-dharma' and 'bhagavatha-dharma' as per our SV tradition =

--- a fascinating subject very much close to my heart and head. it might =

well take us both into another round-tour of itihasas, puranaas, verses =

from swami desikan's poetry and other 'acharya-s' works. let me assure =

you that my views have not been shot from the hip (even on those rare =

occasions when i inadvertantly shoot myself in the foot i'm careful =

never to put it into my mouth!). I know exactly what I 'm saying in this =

matter because i base it on SV literature and my understanding of it. i =

wish i had the time to explain my central thesis on this subject.

 

sadly, i am now in the preparatory process of winding up my affairs here =

and my ISP tells me my service-subscription will expire in the next 48 =

hours. so i have to willy-nilly pull the plug from the bhakti-list too =

amongst others through which i have had such a great time talking to =

people half-way across both sides of the globe all these past months =

thanks to this fantastic thing called the web.

 

who knows i might be able to connect again sometime later and continue =

with not only the aborted bhishma-stuthi but also with this apparently =

"controversial" line of discussion which i have initiated and which =

seems to have made many on the list so nervous and queasy that they're =

perhaps silently turning up their orthodox noses in distaste at it.=20

 

but believe me, if and when i do resume eventually in the future you =

will yourself want it to be done in the open and not under the =

carpet.... !

 

With best wishes,

sudarshan =20

 

 

 

 

 

=20