VarnAshrama DharmA

[Guest guest]

Sri :

 

Srimate Sri Lakshmi Nrusimha Para Brahmane Namaha

 

Srimate Sri Lakshmi - Nrusimha Divya PAdukA Sevaka -

Srivan Shatagopa Sri NArAyana Yateendra MahAdesikAya Namaha

 

Srimate NigamAntha MahAdesikAya Namaha

Srimate Bhagavad RAmAnujAya Namaha

 

Sriyai Namaha ; SridharAya Namaha

 

 

Dear Bhakti Group Members ,

 

Namo NArAyanA . kindly accept adiyens pranAmams.

 

Adiyen has pledged not to enter any types of discussions which even

remotely leads to vadakalai vs thengalai.

 

But Adiyen would like to clarify little bit about VarnAshrama DharmA .

 

Every baddha jIvAtmA is eligible for getting moksham. Anyone can

have Prapatti done as long as they are sincere to AchAryA/sAstrAs . There

are no restrictions.

 

But aslong as a jIvAtmA is in a particular body , he is bound by

it . The body which is obtained through past karmA ( destines the

type of birth) poses many restrictions to the jIvAtmA (most of the things

are not visible to naked eyes) . Eventhough the jIvAtmA is an eternal

servant of NArAyanA , he is not in that same mood 24 hrs a day , 365 days

a year ,which is possible only at Sri Vaikuntam. He does various

activities based on body : eating , sleeping etc.

 

So , sAstrAs prescribe various duties a jIvAtmA has to perform

because of his connection with this body. These duties are to be performed

as a service to NArAyanA .Thus they are kainkaryams only.

 

Let adiyen quote a passage from SamAshrayanam - part 6 posting.

 

"The important aspect in any kainkaryam is that it is purely for the

pleasure of Sriman NArAyanA . SAstrAs also clearly specify the type of

kainkaryam one has to perform , according to ones varnA & AshramA. So ,

one has to just take up the kainkaryam assigned to him/her & perform with

devotion. This is the spirit behind the kainkaryam & thus one shouldn't

entertain questions like "Why can't I do this ?" , "Why should they only

do that ? " etc. ".

 

If a person belongs to the varnA of say Brahmin , he is ORDERED by

NArAyanA to perform certain duties as kainkaryams. This in no way makes

him superior/inferior. If a person thinks that he is superior to others

just because he is performing something which others are not performing ,

he has totally misunderstood sAstrAs. Also if that person doesn't do those

kainkaryams, he is not pleasing NArAyanA .

 

NArAyanA has told in so many instances regarding the strict

observance of VarnAshrama DharmA . So , it is followed for

the pleasure of NArAyanA & not due to superiority/inferiority issues .

 

AzhvArs are supreme unparalleled devotees of Sriman NArAyanA . They

strictly observed VarnAshrama dharmA . They didn't violate it because, it

is for the pleasure of NArAyanA.

 

If the spirit of VarnAshrama DharmA is not understood , it leads to

absurd conclusions.

 

This posting is just a clarification on varnAshrama dharmA .

 

A small note : Please go through the entire divya prabandham . Nowhere is

pranavam as a combination of a,u & m occurs. They are indirectly referred

to as pranavam , name based on the mAtirai of chanting etc. Nowhere in the

prabandham does ashtAksharam occurs ( It is actually from VedAs). While

referring to ashtAksharam , AzhvArs refer to ashtAksharam as "the 8

lettered one" etc.

 

 

 

Namo NArAyanA

 

Adiyen

 

Anantha PadmanAbha dAsan

 

 

Sarvam Sri KrishnArpanamastu

[Guest guest]

> Adiyen has pledged not to enter any types of discussions which even

>remotely leads to vadakalai vs thengalai.

 

I don't see why these so-called different views cannot be discussed. I have

studied and discussed these things with both sides and I am convinced that

if they sat down and discussed the differences they would find out just how

close their positions on most issues are. Instead, this last year in Sri

Rangam, we studied with a Vadakalai teacher who insisted that our Tenkalai

teacher hated Desika, even though the man often quoted Desika's words with

respect to us in his classes. There was a similar misunderstanding by our

Tengalai teacher about the Vadakalai man.

 

I am not saying that there are no irreconcilable differences, just that a

proper presentation of each side would be enlightening. Even if it only

leads to the agreement to disagree. After all "Ramanuja's system of

Visistadvaita recognizes the claims of both faith and reason and aims at

harmonizing or reconciling them by admitting a free play of reason not only

on the data of sense-perception and inference, but also on the spiritual

intuition or anubhava of the great seers and the doctrines or views

recorded in the scriptures." Page 1 The Philosophy of Visistadvaita by P.N.

Srinivasachari.

> But Adiyen would like to clarify little bit about VarnAshrama DharmA .

> as long as a jIvAtmA is in a particular body , he is bound by

>it . The body which is obtained through past karmA ( destines the

>type of birth) poses many restrictions to the jIvAtmA (most of the things

>are not visible to naked eyes) .

 

Once again I see someone trying to say that Biology is destiny. I agree

that one gets this body because of past karmas. However does that equate to

one acting in a particular varna based solely on birth alone. Surely the

story in the Upanisads of Satya Kama Jabala shows clearly that the boy was

considered a Brahmin due to his quality of Satya or truthfulness. And as

such admitted to the Gurukula, and what is studied in Gurukulas?,

Vedadhyayana, right. Similarly Lord Krishna in the Gita describes

Varnashrama in terms of Guna Karma, not Janma. Also later in the 18th

chapter He describes each varna in terms of their occupations and qualities.

 

In ancient times even in Europe, the son of a cowherd usually became a

cowherd, and a King's son became a King. However I have seen innumberable

examples of persons in India (and elsewhere) born in "High Caste/Class"

families who have given up the qualities and activities of their birth

castes/classes and have taken to the ways of other castes/classes. And vice

versa.

 

Please tell me to which caste someone belongs if his or her parents are

Brahmins by birth from India but they are born and raised in America, and

act for all intensive purposes just like regular Americans (watching TV,

eating at Macdonalds, dating, etc.)?

 

Even if by good upbringing and careful attention by their parents they are

educated in the scriptures, have the samskaras performed, and read the

labels on all the food they eat (a thing which invariablely NRI's forget to

do) to make sure they don't take things with eggs in them or drink the milk

with Vitamin D (fish oil) in it, how many generations do you think they can

continue to remain pure of body in such a society without the determination

of spiritual and moral conviction?

 

And guess what?, that society is fast coming to India so you don't even

have to go to America any more to become "degraded", you can do it in your

own country.

 

The moral behind this is that the real thing that is important is the

qualities of a Vaisnava, not what kind of birth he/she may have taken. I

would like to be judged on my merits and demerits, by my actions and not by

those of my ancestors. Even today we see many Vaisnavas obsessed with

making sure they receive the Temple Honors awarded to their ancestors

whether or not they themselves continue to fully uphold their ancestors

standards (Of course very many do, and are a wonderful credit to their

illustrious families.) It's up to each and every one of us, at ever

moment, to choose the type of life we lead.

 

Actually come to think of it I can count on one hand the number of Sri

Vaisnavas that I know who haven't lost their so-called high caste by birth

status due to any number of small rules and regulations. Who has, no family

members who have not lost caste due to crossing the oceans, eating Videshi

vegetables, biting their food, or drinking Coffee (Videshi) or using

Chilis (Videshi) or taking bath from a pipe instead of a tank or river, or

taking to computer programming or becoming lawyers or servants of others

when they should be studying and teaching the vedas, etc. It is commendable

that some persons are still following all these prescriptions however I

think that none of these things in and of itself seems very relevant to the

determination of Varna today.

 

The obsession with birth (Varna=Color ?) in India extends even beyond the

idea of particular families. Even if born in a good family skin color can

mean the difference between acceptance and rejection. Why else the

obsession with "fairness cream", "face powder", "fair groom", "fair bride",

etc. Surely in Vaisnavism we are trying to get away from such petty

identification with bodily/birth features such as skin color, etc.

 

Unfortunately in India the quest for "bodily/birth" purity doesn't extend

to the environment. Although people bathe many times a day, as a rule even

the Brahmin neighbourhoods are filthy, and people even feel the need to

answer the calls of nature in the ground of temples. (Yes, I'm talking

about East Uttara St. right by the temple wall in Sri Rangam, I have a

house there.) (And they call themselves Brahmins!)

 

Varnashrama dharma is a social system which works when people perform their

duties based on their real natures. (Oh and it's a system where the state

is ruled by a Rajarshi or Saintly King, so I guess that leaves India out of

the running, nowadays.)

 

Our karma is unfolding not just at our time of birth but continues to

unfold during our lifetime. Unfortunately it seems that the Alvars lived in

a time when there was this over emphasis on caste by birth and therefore

they out of humility accepted their roles. Of course this is not the way

Ramanuja felt about Kanchipurna, who he wished to become the disciple of,

even though he wasn't a Brahmin. Nor should it be the way we view persons

of "low birth" and spiritual qualities today.

 

Just imagine a religion that actually prohibits it's member from performing

religious acts, even though they might be able and eager to do so! Of

course one has to be trained, to be qualified to perform some functions,

and no one expects untrained persons to be presented as qualified for

certain duties.

> So , sAstrAs prescribe various duties a jIvAtmA has to perform

>because of his connection with this body.

 

NOT JUST BODY!, but according to his/her Varna. The question is whether

Varna is determined solely by birth.

>So , one has to just take up the kainkaryam assigned to him/her & perform with

>devotion. This is the spirit behind the kainkaryam & thus one shouldn't

>entertain questions like "Why can't I do this ?" , "Why should they only

>do that ? " etc. ".

 

Thank you for telling me what I can and cannot do or think based on your

interpretation!

 

Please tell me (if you can) what your idea of Kainkarya for those born as

Yavana, Mleccha, etc is? Are we to be excluded from the Temple as Tiruppan

Alvar was? And as we are even today from Rangaji Temple in Vrndavana, UP.

 

Back in the 70s when I first went to Tirupati they wanted me to sign a form

stating that I would not cause offense or disturbance in the temple,

thinking that I was a Christian (I have never been a Christian though my

mother is). I was ready to humbly sign but instead began chanting

Venkatesvara Suprabhatam and Purusha Sukta for the man in the temple

office. Immediately I was escorted back to the temple with the full

blessings of all present, they realised that it was unnecessary for me to

sign their form.

 

While living in Sri Rangam last year, we attended the Vaikuntha Ekadasi

festival. (Which we have attended on several occasions before. We have been

visiting Sri Rangam since the 70s) My wife and I met a man from out of town

standing near the gate in front of the Garuda Mandapa. (There is a sign

ONLY HINDUS ALLOWED) I was wearing panca kaccha dhoti and angavastram and

yajnopavita (I also have a tuft), my wife wearing 9 yard sari in Madisar

style, both of us with Tengalai Namam. We were just about to go through the

gate (like we do every morning) when this guy calls us over and explains

that we are not allowed in. Well I just looked around and practically

everyone else there knew us and immediately told the guys that we were OK.

But I wonder what he was thinking 'cause we were sure dressed up like

Vaisnavas, or was he only looking at the skin color and not the tiruman.

 

Surprisingly enough we met a Hindu guy and his Blond Haired White Wife from

Mauritius one day in the Sesaraya mandapa on our way in for darshan. The

guy was wearing pant/shirt and his wife a salwar kameez. They said that

they had been refused entrance by the temple authorities. (Hindus in

Mauritius have given up Caste) The temple guys could not believe that the

Blond girl was a Hindu, so both husband and wife were excluded. Meanwhile

Indian Men and Women wearing tight fitting jeans, etc. just walked on by to

darshan.

 

After we complained about these people not being allowed in to the temple

authorities, we went to the Chakratalvar Sannidhi. (There is also a big

sign there ONLY HINDUS ALLOWED) While in there we saw a couple of Christian

Nuns from a local Christian School with some school girls taking darshan of

Lord Sudarsana. The Nuns had their full uniforms on, including crosses

hanging around their necks. No one questioned them entering the shrine.

When we brought this to the attention of the temple officials, they just

laughed. Because the nuns were Indian, so because of the nationality or

skin color or something they were OK.

 

Years ago I met some archakas of the Rangaji Temple in Vrndavana, UP. I

discussed with them about some aspects of Pancaratra Agama and my

experiences in South India. They invited me for darshan in the temple. I

said that I didn't want to make a fuss as I knew that that temple (the only

Vaisnava one I know of) didn't allow western Vasinavas in for darshan. They

said that they would help me get in by taking me to the office. The guy in

charge was related to (the great) PB Anangacharya of Kanchi who I had met

one time. He said that I was not allowed in because I was not a Hindu. The

archakas told him that I was. He then said that entrance was restricted to

only Indians according to Shastra. My friends said they had never heard of

such a thing. And questioned him that persons of Indian descent from

Singapore, Malaysia, Mauritius had all been allowed in, so why not me.

Finally after the guy admitted that there was no reason why he couldn't let

me in but it was the temple policy not to admit persons of Non-Indian

descent. They don't even have a sign that says ONLY HINDUS, they just don't

want non-Indians.

 

I have been seriously told by an Acharya Purusha that since I was born in a

family of meat eaters that my proper dharma could be to be a butcher. After

he told this to my wife and I (Vaisnavas and strict Vegitarians for the

past 26 years), he apologised to us and regretted what he had said and

later told us that he was very happy with our interest and activities in

Vaisnavism. I have known this person for 15 years and have a great deal of

respect for him. This was the only time he ever spoke to me like that.

 

Another funny incident happened to us while we were living in Sri Rangam

last year. Some of the neighbourhood high school girls (all Vaisnavis) came

to visit us in our house one day. We showed them pictures of our life in

foreign, our murtis and altar in our house in Hawaii, etc. They asked us

whether we were vegitarians in foreign or only while we were in India (Sri

Rangam). We explained to them that although we were born in meat-eating

families that we had both become vegitarians at a young age, and that in

fact we had been strict vegitarians and vaisnavas longer than they had

('cause they were only teenagers). They said that they had heard that many

people who were vegitarians in India took to eating meat and drinking as

soon as they came to the West. (You know the old story that the West is so

cold that you have to eat meat and drink alcohol to survive, also there's

not many vegetables in the West) Well we were glad to clear up that

misconception. And we know that what we said to them got around the whole

of Sri Rangam to those who were concerned about us. We don't blame people

for being sceptical about us, but we just ask that they apply the same

standards to their own relatives.

 

Another Sri Vaisnava last year was suprised to know that I had studied

Pancaratra and taken Archaka (Chakrabja Mandala) diksha from a Tenkalai

Svayamacharya. He asked if I had had tapta mudra dharana. When I said that

I had, he remarked that "so what, even cattle are branded". Most Vaisnavas

we have met are very pleased to see ANYONE interested in following their

philosophy and way of life.

> If the spirit of VarnAshrama DharmA is not understood , it leads to

>absurd conclusions.

 

Unfortunately I believe that you misunderstand the spirit of Varnashrama

and are stuck in the misconception that birth in a particular family

automatically determines one's social status.

 

Varnashrama is a social system, it works only so long as it is implemented

according to qualities and work, when a person devoid of the necessary

qualities takes on the work (Dharma) of a particular Varna then the whole

system is put into chaos.

 

This we have seen in history even in the west. When the Kings and Queens of

Europe oppressed their citizens too much the people revolted and

established so-called Democracy. Rule by the masses due to there being no

spiritual leaders (brahmins) and no good Ruling class (ksatriyas).

Socialism was an attempt to make a classless social system of all Sudras,

whereas in Capitalism the Vaisyas are held as supreme.

 

Varna is determined by the prominent guna or mode of nature by which one

lives his/her life and the prominent purushartha which one hopes to achieve

by his/her actions.

Predominantly Sattvic/Moksha = Brahmin

Predominantly Rajasic/Dharma = Kshatriya

Predominantly Rajasic Tamasic Mix/Artha = Vaisya

Predominantly Tamasic/Kama = Shudra

 

janmanaa jaayate shuudrah

karmaNaa jaayate dvijah

 

sincerely

 

Keshava das

 

P.S. I have brought up a lot of stuff in this post, that may offend people.

It is not meant to offend those who wholeheartedly disagree and live their

lives as pure servants of the Lord strictly following all the rules and

regulations of the caste system. However it is meant as a wakeup call to

all those who would hypocritically apply those rules and regulations to

others while disregarding the essential equality of all Jivatmas regardless

of birth, caste, sex, color, race, etc. Usually I only lurk on this list,

as I wish to learn from all the learned Vaisnavas discussions. Please

forgive me for speaking my mind on this subject which I feel very strongly

about. I do visit India regularly (every year) and have lived continuously

there for almost ten years in the 70s and 80s. I have also met and

performed pujas for many NRI's all over the world. So I know the Indian

community both in India and abroad.

[Guest guest]

With reference to Keshava Das's posting, if it is any consolation, I was

stopped from both the Srirangam temple and Parthasarathi temple in

Triplicane. In both cases I was shown signs saying that only Hindus are

allowed. I am supposed to be a caste Brahmana with no mixture of any

foreign blood (at least know to our family).

 

As to what is service, everything we do can be looked upon as service to

Sriman Narayana. Sri Srivatsarangachariar said that it is women who do

more than 75% of the Thiruvaradhanam. We (men) only do arghyam, padyam

etc. They clean the temple (in this case the house), put kolum, light

lamps and cook for Perumal and Bhagavatas and clean up after lunch.

Everybody needs to understand from their Acharya how to serve Sriman

Narayana. If they have pleased their Acharya, then they have served

Sriman Narayana.

 

adiyen

jaganath.

[Guest guest]

The clarity and erudition with which our learned friends have

marshalled their arguments deserves our admiration. The presentation

however does leave, IMHO, a few lingering questions unanswered.

 

First and foremost question is whether our sampradayam moves forward

with time? If one looks carefully at the public pronouncements (as

known through karnaparampara) of our acharyas such as Sri Ramanuja or

Sri Desika, it appears that they were in many cases reacting to the

need of the hour. Otherwise, the well-known apachara of the

Tirukkottiyur Nambi need not have transpired. But then as we all are

aware, there were good reasons. So our own teachers were not flag

bearers of an ossified tradition but of a living one, a thriving and

prospering one at that. In fact the record does show that except in

the case of sastraic and darsana oriented bhashyams and vrittis

written by our acharyas, they were upholders of a rather liberal

tradition for their time and place.

 

Ours is the only tradition in the length and breadth of our country

which is based on the Vedanta which at the same time totally

sanctifies (and even glorifies) the use of non-Vedic material for

liturgical purposes viz., the Prabandham. I have heard many learned

brahmins from other parts of South India (and North India) comment on

the precedence given to the Prabandha goshti over the Veda parayana

goshti during purappAdu etc.. (Most times the comments are of an

admiring nature ascribing the continuing strength of temple worship in

TN to such revolutionary measures which are already centuries old in

our temples.) But one thing is for sure: it is by moving with the

times that our revered acharyas ensured the continued prosperity of

our tradition.

 

Today none of us are priests, archakas, adhyapakas or acharyas by

profession. It is not clear in how many Vaishnava homes the daily

rituals prescribed in the sastras (or even in a booklet called the

Vaishnava dinacharya published by LIFCO) are being carried out in a

proper and timely manner. By what authority are we neglecting these

duties and at the same time turning up at the appointed hour at our

offices in IBM, Microsoft, Caltech or wherever every morning?

 

Gentlemen, this is an electronic forum. By what pramana are we

participating in this mode of discourse? In this case, it appears

that we do not need pramana as we are merely moving with the times.

 

Despite this utter lack of pramana for every activity in our daily

life, we nevertheless glory in our self-identity as Vaishnavas. There

are scholars of European and American origin who study the Vedas and

quote from it, so what makes the non Brahmana Hindus and particularly

Vaishnavas ineligible? In this day and age, some of the sentiments

expressed in the name of varnashrama dharma seem anachronistic to say

the least and will clearly do a great disservice to the growth of our

tradition in North America, if not in India itself.

 

Warm Regards.

 

PS: I have written this in anguish so have not provided the necessary

references.

 

 

 

 

==

Lakshmi Srinivas

 

 

 

 

 

_______

DO YOU !?

Get your free @ address at