Guest guest Posted February 4, 1998 Report Share Posted February 4, 1998 Dear BhagawatAs, I have been going through the excellent, truly thought-provoking book "The life of Azhwars" (don't remember the exact title) by Alkondavalli GovindAcharya. The azhwars have been described as amsAs of bhagawan in some instances, and amsAs of the divine celestial servants of the Lord - nithyasUris in some other instances. Some of us also celebrate some of our acharyAs in a similar way ... e.g., Ramanuja is celebrated as an avatara of Adisesa. This brings me to a question of the nature of the jeevatma. Our acharyas and rshis have shown that the vedAs confirm the aNutva (monadic nature) of the jeevatma. This is also emphatically confirmed by some thiruvaymozhi paasurams by nammAzhwar (cannot quote the appropriate ones at this time). As far as I have understood, aNutva or monadic nature means the nature of being not-all-pervasive. Bhagawan and pirAtti are all-pervasive (vibhu). Loosely, the jeevatma can be considered as a speck of infinite conciousness and bliss. This being the case, how can a jeevatma exist in two places - in paralokam as a nithyasUri and in ihalokam as an azhwAr or acharya as is implied when we say that the azhwars and acharyas are amsAs of nithyasUris? Can the same jeevatma exist in more than one sarira simultaneously? Also, we know that in an archA mUrthi of NarayaNa he exists in all his divya man~gaLa rUpam (although our material eyes cannot perceive him). That should be easy for him because he is vibhu. How about the mUrthis of our Acharyas and our Azhwars? We even do samproskaNa to these mUrthis. Does the jeevatma of our acharya exist in that mUrthi? And we may have several mUrthis. Example ... you find Desikar sannidhi in many major divya deshams. What about then? Could any of the knowledgeable likes of Krishna Kalale, Prof Dileepan, Dr. Vijaya Raghavan, Dr. Sadagopan provide an explanation to this. Adiyen, Murali Kadambi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 1998 Report Share Posted February 5, 1998 Dear BhagawatAs, In my e-mail entitled "aNutva of jeevatma ... question?," I inadvertently appealed to only a few people to answer my question. I sincerely did not mean to imply any kind of levels of knowledge among the members of the group. I know personally from reading all your mails how much of scholarship and sincerity there exists among all the members of this group. I only hope through the grace of the Lord I will at least become a little more sincere in my spiritual pursuit because scholarship is not in my reach. Please forgive my bhAgawata apacharam. Adiyen Murali Kadambi ---------- Rajagopalan, Murli Wednesday, February 04, 1998 10:34 AM bhakti aNutva of jeevatma ... question? Dear BhagawatAs, I have been going through the excellent, truly thought-provoking book "The life of Azhwars" (don't remember the exact title) by Alkondavalli GovindAcharya. The azhwars have been described as amsAs of bhagawan in some instances, and amsAs of the divine celestial servants of the Lord - nithyasUris in some other instances. Some of us also celebrate some of our acharyAs in a similar way ... e.g., Ramanuja is celebrated as an avatara of Adisesa. This brings me to a question of the nature of the jeevatma. Our acharyas and rshis have shown that the vedAs confirm the aNutva (monadic nature) of the jeevatma. This is also emphatically confirmed by some thiruvaymozhi paasurams by nammAzhwar (cannot quote the appropriate ones at this time). As far as I have understood, aNutva or monadic nature means the nature of being not-all-pervasive. Bhagawan and pirAtti are all-pervasive (vibhu). Loosely, the jeevatma can be considered as a speck of infinite conciousness and bliss. This being the case, how can a jeevatma exist in two places - in paralokam as a nithyasUri and in ihalokam as an azhwAr or acharya as is implied when we say that the azhwars and acharyas are amsAs of nithyasUris? Can the same jeevatma exist in more than one sarira simultaneously? Also, we know that in an archA mUrthi of NarayaNa he exists in all his divya man~gaLa rUpam (although our material eyes cannot perceive him). That should be easy for him because he is vibhu. How about the mUrthis of our Acharyas and our Azhwars? We even do samproskaNa to these mUrthis. Does the jeevatma of our acharya exist in that mUrthi? And we may have several mUrthis. Example ... you find Desikar sannidhi in many major divya deshams. What about then? Could any of the knowledgeable likes of Krishna Kalale, Prof Dileepan, Dr. Vijaya Raghavan, Dr. Sadagopan provide an explanation to this. Adiyen, Murali Kadambi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 1998 Report Share Posted February 8, 1998 Sri : Srimate Sri Lakshmi Nrusimha Para Brahmane Namaha Srimate ShatagopAya Namaha Srimate Bhagavad RAmAnujAya Namaha Srimate NigamAntha MahAdesikAya Namaha Srimate Sri Lakshmi - Nrusimha Divya PAdukA Sevaka - Srivan Shatagopa Sri NArAyana Yateendra MahAdesikAya Namaha Dear Sri Murali & other bhakti group members , Namo NArAyanA . kindly accept adiyens pranAmams. Adiyen is fortunate to have done kAlakshebam (whatever little bit) under Sri U.Ve. V.S. KarunAkaran swAmy , the scion of nadAdhUr ammAL paramparA . Whatever adiyen is writing in this mail is mostly based on adiyen's kAlakshebam. On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Rajagopalan, Murli wrote: > Dear BhagawatAs, > > Our acharyas and rshis have shown that the vedAs > confirm the aNutva (monadic nature) of the jeevatma. This is also > emphatically confirmed by some thiruvaymozhi paasurams by nammAzhwar > (cannot quote the appropriate ones at this time). As far as I have > understood, aNutva or monadic nature means the nature of being > not-all-pervasive. Bhagawan and pirAtti are all-pervasive (vibhu). > Loosely, the jeevatma can be considered as a speck of infinite > conciousness and bliss. This being the case, how can a jeevatma exist > in two places - in paralokam as a nithyasUri and in ihalokam as an > azhwAr or acharya as is implied when we say that the azhwars and > acharyas are amsAs of nithyasUris? Can the same jeevatma exist in > more than one sarira simultaneously? > As mentioned , jIvAtmA's svaroopam ( svaroopa jn~Anam & Bliss) is never affected by anything. Even when the jIvAtmA is in this material world , associated with a material body ,its svaroopam doesn't change. jIvAtmA is eternally a "sarIrA" to Sriman nArAyanA ie. nArAyanA is the supporter & controller of jIvAtmA and jIvAtmA exists for the pleasure of Sriman nArAyanA . But , we also see jIvAtmA's changing !! Once upon a time a person would have never bothered about Sriman nArAyanA . After a while he becomes a great Sri VaishnavA . Ones karmA changes the jIvAtmA . But , "what in jIvAtmA does that change occur to ? ". Actually , the changes occur to the dharmabhoota jn~Anam of jIvAtmA.It is this dharmabhoota jn~Anam (different from the svaroopa jn~Anam , which is unchanged) , using which the jIvAtmA perceives other entities. Dharmabhoota jn~Anam is called as "Attributive Knowledge" & Svaroopa jn~Anam is called as "Innate Knowledge". This dharmabhoota jn~Anam contracts or expands according to the karmA of the jIvAtmA. Once a jIvAtmA attains moksham (reaches Sri Vaikuntam) , it's dharmabhoota jn~Anam expands to the maximum limit possible ( ie. infinite). Eventhough by svaroopam , a jIvAtmA is 'aNu' , it's dharmabhoota jn~Anam extends to many places. Dharmabhoota jn~Anam expands everywhere (becomes infinitely spread) _ONLY_ when the jIvAtmA reaches Sri Vaikuntam. The extent of expansion of the dharmabhoota jn~Anam associated with a jIvAtmA in Sri VaiKuntam, is EQUAL to the extent of expansion of dharmabhoota jn~Anam of Sriman nArAyanA. In other words , everyone's dharmabhoota jn~Anam in Sri Vaikuntam (Parama padam) is expanded infinitely. MuktAs (liberated souls at Sri Vaikuntam ) & Nitya SoorIs ( ever liberated souls like Adiseshan , Garudan , SudarsanAzhvAr ie. Sudarsana chakram , pAnchajanyam & others , who never took a materialistic body ie. never affected by karmA ) have their dharmabhoota jn~Anam fully expanded. Coming to the question , jIvAtmA's svaroopam ie. jivAtmA as such, cannot exist in two places since it is 'aNu' ( 'aNu' is usually cruedly translated as 'atomic' . please note that there is no appropriate english word for 'aNu'. 'aNu' is something which cannot be further subdivided . Materialistic scientists has given a name 'atom' to something & also have subdivided it => their 'atom' is divisible ). " But , jIvAtmA through it's dharmabhoota jn~AnA can exist in many places ". The meaning of this statement is that , through the dharmabhoota jn~Anam , the jIvAtmA can control many other bodies. This ofcourse is possible for the jIvAtmA whose dharmabhoota jn~Anam is expanded to a great extent. Saubhari Muni (jIvAtmA) was at one place only. But , his yogic power has made his dharmabhoota jn~Anam expand & control various bodies. > Also, we know that in an archA mUrthi of NarayaNa he exists in all his > divya man~gaLa rUpam (although our material eyes cannot perceive him). > That should be easy for him because he is vibhu. How about the > mUrthis of our Acharyas and our Azhwars? We even do samproskaNa to > these mUrthis. Does the jeevatma of our acharya exist in that mUrthi? > And we may have several mUrthis. Example ... you find Desikar > sannidhi in many major divya deshams. What about then? > If even a Saubhari Muni , whose dharmabhoota jn~Anam is not fully expanded , can control so many bodies , our AchAryAs & AzhvArs (mukthAs/nityasoorIs) can control various bodies very easily. A Very important difference between the archA thirumeni (ie.body) of our AchAryAs/AzhvArs & the body of Saubhari muni is that , the former is made up of Suddha SattvA & the later is of materialistic elements (prakruti). Let us take the example of SwAmi Desikan (as mentioned in the question). An ardent devotee(s) of swAmi desikan would like to worship his beloved AchAryA .So , he makes the image of swAmi desikan & does prathishtA according to Agama sAstrA . SwAmi Desikan knows about the desires of his devotees since his dharmabhoota jn~Anam is fully expanded ie. He is a sarvaj~nyA (all knower). SwAmi Desikan from Sri Vaikuntam abides by the wishes of the sincere devotee(s)/sishyA(s) . His (swAmi desikan) presence is made in that archa vigrahA through his dharmabhoota jn~Anam. Moreover , the archA thirumeni is no more of a materialistic composition. It is of "suddha sattvA " in nature (Similar to perumAL's archA thirumeni). Similarly , swAmi Desikan can fulfill the wishes of all the sishyAs (at different divya desams). Other Details/Consequences : * The archA mUrthi is worshippable (offering arghyam , pAdyam ,food etc) ,only if it adheres to Agama sAstrA. Since mere photographs (a product of modern technology) are not approved by AgamAs , rigorous worship can't be performed in those cases.For Sriman nArAyanA to take an archA avatAram , Agama sAstrAs themselves contain the detailed account on all the procedures to be employed .Ofcourse , it is Sriman nArAyanA Himself , who propagated the pAncharAtra AgamA. So , He would certainly abide by it (Merciful Lord ! ). So, the mantra prathistA is required for archA avatAram , if it is because of a devotee's desire to be fulfilled. Since Sriman nArAyanA is highly merciful , He also takes archa avatAram on His own will ("svayam vyaktA"). For instance , "sALagrAmA" is a svayam vyakta archAvatAram.There is no need of any mantra prathistA in worshipping perumAL in His sALagrAma form. When nArAyanA is already there in the sALagrAmA & has MADE THE MATERIAL OF THE SUDDHA SATTVA TYPE , there is no need of a prathishtA. Eventhough nArAyana svaroopam pervades everywhere (vibhu) , the criterion of sAstric (Agama) worship is based on whether nArAyanA has accepted a suddha sattva sarIram (body) or not . Thats why offering food etc to a picture ( photograph) of nArAyanA is not accepted in sAstrAs . The beautiful pictures of Sriman nArAyanA present in various Divya Desams makes a devotee ecstatic. He can recite the nectarian prabandhams , stotrAs etc (any glorifications of nArAyanA) & worship in a way , not violating sAstrAs (orders of nArAyanA) . The most merciful Lord Sriman nArAyanA will certainly reciprocate with the devotee . A clarification : A devotee can pray to nArAyanA even when he is walking along a street /in his working place/in journey etc & the Lord is always merciful to accept the devotees prayers , eventhough he hasn't prayed in front of His archA avatArA (temple) . Similarly , one can pray , sing & dance in front of pictures of nArAyanA . nArAyanA certainly accepts the kainkaryams of His devotees & reciprocates with all of them lovingly with intense vAtsalyam . The discussion in the previous paragraphs were concerned with the "rigorous" worship as prescribed in sAstrAs. * The body of demigods like Lord ShivA , Lord Ganesha in various temples are NOT made up of suddha sattvA , since the demigods haven't attained moksham . Moreover, nArAyanA is only the antaryAmi of the jIvAtmA SHivA/Ganesha . So , nArAyanA is not present directly => not worsippable (for Sri VaishnavAs , this is important . For those who want to worship the demigods directly , Lord GaneshA /Lord ShivA is certainly worshippable in various temples ). Here "non - worshippable" is told in a sense that nArAyanA is not present in His divya mangala vigrahA. If a person goes to the temple of GaneshA instead of a temple of nArAyanA & still maintains that he is worshipping nArAyanA through ganeshA , it is a blatant lie. When Sriman nArAyanA out of His great Sowlabhyam & Sowseelyam has taken a beautiful divya mangala vigraham and is ever eager to bestow His mercy, where is the question of going to some demigod's temple & worshipping nArAyanA there ? First of all he hasn't understood about nArAyanA properly. If that person then clarifies that "No. No. I go to both the temples of nArAyanA & demigods , but through demigods , I worship nArAyanA only". Again , he is not true to himself. The same question raised in the previous paragraph still remains unanswered. What is the special neccesity of taking all pains to walk towards the demigod's temple & worship nArAyanA there ? He can as well go to nArAyanA's temple directly. Still , he may claim "I see nArAyanA through GaneshA" . But , this is impossible. If he has reached that stage , he will be seeing nArAyanA (nArAyana svaroopam) everywhere , since nArAyana svaroopam is all pervading. He needn't go to ganeshA's temple to see the antaryAmI nArAyanA , rather he should be able to see the same antaryAmI nArAyanA in anything & everything. So , one shouldn't go to the temple of demigods for worshipping them. But , when we go through the streets , sometimes Lord shivA or other demigods may be out there to bless their devotees. We should certainly offer our pranAmams with respect because , demigods are also devotees of Sriman nArAyanA . Under such circumstances ,some even choose to pay their prostration to the antaryAmi of shivA/demigods , who is nothing but nArAyanA. In this case ,the person didn't will to go Lord shivA's place. Neverthless , Lord shivA is in front of him.So , eventhough one doesn't have the realization of antaryAmi , he can do this & nArAyanA certainly accepts it. Important note : NO JIVATMA IN THIS MATERIAL WORLD CAN HAVE THE SAAKSHAATKAARAM ( REALIZATION ; NOT MERE KNOWLEDGE) OF NARAYANA SVAROOPAM.ONLY IN SRI VAIKUNTAM CAN ONE ENJOY THE SVAROOPAM OF NARAYANA. nArAyana svaroopam is everywhere , but not present to materialistic eyes. So being the case , how will a bhaktA (baddha jIvA , who is in material world ) comprehend nArAyanA ? Here comes the greatest mercy of Sriman nArAyanA. To make all His devotees happy & establish a loving relationship , nArAyanA takes most wonderful divya mangala vigrahAs. Even in Sri Vaikuntam , nArAyanA has such a wonderful form of bewitching beauty only for the devotees to enjoy it.nArAyanA HAS A TRUE form . It is real & eternal. But , the form doesn't become nArAyanA. nArAyanA has many auspicious qualities. But those auspicious qualities doesn't become nAryanA. ( adiyen will write more on nArAyanA in a different posting(s) .Sri VijayarAghavan swAmi has given a kainkaryam to adiyen through his posting named "Antaryami" some days back. Please forgive adiyen for not fulfilling it till now ) nArAyanA thus takes forms in five stages (para,vyUha,antaryAmi roopam,vibhava,archa). In nArAyanA's vibhava avatAram like rAmA & krishnA , all the devotees were highly attracted to His divya mangala vigrahA. Infact , devotees relish the divya mangala vigraham & is a source of immense ecstacy (amalanAdhipirAn of ThiruppAnAzhvAr has no parallel in describing the beauty of the divya mangala vigrahA of Sriman nArAyanA ie. RanganAthA). The whole greatness of archAvatAram is in the divine mangala vigrahA of nArAyanA . When combined with His kalyAna GunAs ( mainly exhibited in vibhava avatArams like nrusimhA , rAmA , krishnA etc) the devotee cannot move from that place (like AzhvArs). For general devotees , AzhvAr's anubhavams (experiences) through their pAsurams are available. So , he is also in very ecstatic mood. (kindly forgive adiyen for a total digression ). coming back to other details , * PrathistA of archA vigrahams to great sages like vyAsA , vashistA etc are not done by Sri VaishnavAs (anyway , not done by others also) because they haven't attained moksham yet. Since the dharmabhoota jn~Anam of them are not fully expanded , they cannot control the vigraham & make their presence / make it suddha sattvA. * Lord hanumAn is an ardent devotee of Sri rAmA . Since he has chosen to remain in this world itself (eventhough asked by nArAyanA /Sri rAmA to come to Sri Vaikuntam ), he hasn't attained moksham yet. Lord HanumAn told that he would be present at all those places where glories of Sri rAmA is going on (rAmAyanam, rAma nAma sankeertanam etc) , with folded hands on top of his heads & tears rolling on his eyes. < yatra yatra raghunAtha keertanam tatra tatra krutavasthakAnjalim bhAshpavAri paripoornalochanam mArutim namatharAkshasAntakam > But , Sri vaishnavAs doesn't worship Lord HanumAn in the temple which is built exclusively for him ( same reasoning as above). But , when Lord HanumAn is alongwith Lord rAmA & sitA pirAtti , because of the association of perumAL , there are no botherations. * As a general rule , prathistA of a vigrahA of an AchAryA while he is in the LeelA vibhUti (material world) is not done . Namo NArAyanA Adiyen Anantha PadmanAbha dAsan Sarvam Sri KrishnArpanamastu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 1998 Report Share Posted February 9, 1998 Sri : Srimate Sri Lakshmi Nrusimha Para Brahmane Namaha Srimate ShatagopAya Namaha Srimate Bhagavad RAmAnujAya Namaha Srimate NigamAntha MahAdesikAya Namaha Srimate Sri Lakshmi - Nrusimha Divya PAdukA Sevaka - Srivan Shatagopa Sri NArAyana Yateendra MahAdesikAya Namaha Dear Bhakti group members, Namo NArAyanA . kindly accept adiyens pranAmams. Sri sampath RengarAjan swAmi was kind enough to write to adiyen. Since the message will be useful to everyone , adiyen is posting it to the bhakti list (with his permission). ---------------------- Sri Sampath RengarAjan swAmi wrote : The thershold of when one can worship annyadEvathAs was analysed many times in the past. "Annya dEvathAs are worshippable when they are installed as adiyArs of Sriman nArAyanA. However when they are insatlled as the "param" in their own temple, they are not worshippable by prapannAs". This is the reply given to me by Sri PP ANDAVAN for a specific question that was raised in this forum repeatedly last 2 years and i have posted this once before. There is a shiva lingam at the feet of Sri Anantha padhmanaban in thiru anantha puram and Sri mArkanDyea an amsam of shiva seated in sarangathi posture in front of my lord Sri Oppiliappan. They both are worshippable by prapannAs as aidyArs of Lord. In fact the max proof for me is such that i have been initiated by the moola manthrams of these Lords in these two temples. Ofcourse the pranams of the mantram goes to the Lord finally as stated in it. adiyEn Sampath Rengarajan ---- Namo NArAyanA Adiyen Anantha PadmanAbha dAsan Sarvam Sri KrishnArpanamastu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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