Am Namo Narayanaya

[Guest guest]

Namaskaram,

 

Perhaps I did not make myself clear in my last e-mail. Let me categorically

state that I am not concerned with arguing for or against the Vadakalai or

Tengalai positions on the question of who has the right to chant Pranava. I

have heard both sides and read books on the subject. I believe in the right

of the members of each community to practice what their respective Acharyas

have taught. However what was not apparent in my research into this subject

was the two answers to the two questions that I posed in my last e-mail,

which till now no one has answered.

 

1. Please state the Shastra Pramanam for substitution of "Am" for Pranava

in Ashtaksharam. (Not just because Vedanta Desika says so, but in the same

way as the quote from agama shastra sesa samhita was given.)

 

2. Please state the Shastra Pramanam for allowing the chanting of a

"Rahasya" (Secret) mantram in public assembly. (Perhaps someone could also

give Shastra Pramanam that says that this particular mantram (Ashtaksharam)

as opposed to other Veda mantras are not to be chanted in public. It seems

that other veda mantras are regularly chanted at public ceremonies and

processions.)

 

It also seems that although the Shastra forbids shudras and women from

hearing the Veda, we are much more interested that they not chant Vedas. If

I am wrong about this please let me know. I have seen women and sudras

attending ceremonies and processions where Vedas were chanted in public. Is

it not also forbidden? (See question 2.)

 

With regards to the person who felt it neccessary to object to this subject

matter being discussed. I would only say that this subject is certainly

more appropriate to this list than the discussion of India's Nuclear Policy

that I objected to some days ago. Where were you then? In my opinion

avoiding discussion of subjects that are actually part of Sri Vaisnava

lifestyle, practice, culture and/or philosophy is counterproductive to say

the least.

 

adiyen

 

Keshava das

[Guest guest]

At 07:55 PM 6/23/98 -1000, Greg Jay wrote:

>have taught. However what was not apparent in my research into this subject

>was the two answers to the two questions that I posed in my last e-mail,

>which till now no one has answered.

>

>1. Please state the Shastra Pramanam for substitution of "Am" for Pranava

>in Ashtaksharam. (Not just because Vedanta Desika says so, but in the same

>way as the quote from agama shastra sesa samhita was given.)

 

It is natural in the middle of an argument to forget this; For respect for

all acharyas, I would recommend prefix "Sri" to be used before their names.

In the heat of arguments sometimes we tend to use acharyas' names in a

style such as He wrote this.... etc. which is to be avoided.

 

In the last post, the sesha samhita suggests non-utterance of pranava for

other than brahmin castes. But the exact reason for why "am" instead of any

other sylabble is your question I guess. The fact that there should be a

syllable instead of pranava is clear since it has to be ashtakshari for

moola mantra. This is just to confirm your real question. I am waiting

some answers to this question from India, since I do not have the whole of

sesha samhita with me. I guess, it is in some other part of sesha samhita

which was not quoted in the portion of the rahasya traya sara I had. I

will post it as soon as I get this.

>

>2. Please state the Shastra Pramanam for allowing the chanting of a

>"Rahasya" (Secret) mantram in public assembly. (Perhaps someone could also

>give Shastra Pramanam that says that this particular mantram (Ashtaksharam)

>as opposed to other Veda mantras are not to be chanted in public. It seems

>that other veda mantras are regularly chanted at public ceremonies and

>processions.)

>

 

I do not believe that such a pramana exists. Rahasya mantras are not

publicly uttered. I know this for fact for example : while chanting

"sharanagati gadya" of sri Ramanuja, there is a statement "atra dvayam"...

which means, here "dvaya mantra is to be uttered mentally". then the gadya

continues as : " pitaram mataram daran putran bandhun sakhin... etc."

 

The general pramana regarding secrecy of mantra is : gurum prakashayet

dhiman mantram yatnena gopayet prakasa aprakashayoh ksheeyete sampadayushi

: this is from the 1st adhikara of Rahasyatrayasara. Sri Vedanta Desika

quotes this from a "samhita" which I do not remember; (I will check this

and post the reference later). The meaning is : One should publicize one's

GURU but protect with great care the secret mantras learnt under the guru

(this means that one should extreme care to see that others do not

disregard or take this mantra lightly and give the upadesha regarding this

mantra (if one knows the details) to only the ones who deserve it so that

the mantra is protected now and hereafter). If one does not protect the

mantras and publicize his gurus, his wealth and life span will reduce.

 

adiyen Krishna

[Guest guest]

Sri

Srimate Lakshminarasimha parabrahmane namaha

Srimate NigamAntha MahAdesikAya Namaha

Srimate Lakshminarasimha Divya PAdukA Sevaka -

Srivan Shatagopa Sri NArAyana Yateendra MahAdesikAya Namaha

 

My pranams to all,

 

 

On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Greg Jay wrote:

>

> 1. Please state the Shastra Pramanam for substitution of "Am" for Pranava

> in Ashtaksharam. (Not just because Vedanta Desika says so, but in the same

> way as the quote from agama shastra sesa samhita was given.)

>

 

 

One pramanam for the above is given in Srimad Rahayatrayasaram itself. In

the 27th chapter, the mUlamantrAdhikAra, occurs the following passage.

 

The verses 1-4 are from the Naradiyam. Verses 5 & 6 are from the

Naradiya Kalpam. i am not familiar with even the names of these works.

i would guess these are Pancharatra works. Scholars on the list may be

able shed more light on these.

 

 

<quote>

vaidikam tAntrikam chaiva thathA vaidikatantrikam |

trividham karma samproktam pancharAtrAmr.tArNave || 1

 

vaidikam brAhmaNAnAm tu rAjnAm vaidikatAntrikam |

tAntrikam vaiSyaSUdrANAm sarveshAm tAntrikam tu vA || 2

 

ashTAksharScha yo mantro dvAdaSAkshara eva cha |

shaDAkshara yo mantro vishNoramitatejasa: || 3

 

ete mantrA: pradhAnAstu vaidikA: praNavairyutA: |

praNavena vihInAstu tAntrikA eva kIrtitA || 4

 

na svara: praNavo'ngAni napyanyavidhayastathA |

strINA tu shUdrajAtInAm mantramAtroktirishyate || 5

 

engira padiye praNavam ozhindhapOdhu

 

tatrottarAyaNasyAdi: bindumAn vishNurantata: |

bIjamashTaksharasya syAt tenAshTAksharatA bhavet || 6

 

engira prakriyaiAlE ettezhuththum anusandheyamAga vidhikkapattathu.

 

<end quote>

 

<rough translation>

 

The Pancharatra, that ocean of nectar, says that karmas are of three

kinds - vaidikam, tantrikam and vaidika-tantrikam.

Vaidika karma is for brahmins only, vaidika-tAntrikam for kshatriyas

and tAntrikam for vaishyas and shudras. Of course, anyone can opt for

the tAntrika karmas.

The ashTAkshara, the dvAdaSAkshara and the shaDAkshara are the

principal mantras for Vishnu, whose splendour is immeasurable.

These mantras are vaidika if the pranava is attached in the front.

Else, they are said to be tAntrika. (1-4)

 

For women and shudras, there is no svara, pranava, anganyasa or

any other kind of discipline. The chanting of the plain mantra (without

pranava) is prescribed. (5)

 

So now even though pranava is proscribed, the following verse confirms

that the mantra still remains eight syllabled.

 

In the moolamantra, the syllable 'a' in 'ayaNa' (the latter half of

the word 'nArAyaNa' ) denotes Vishnu. This 'a' with an anusvara (i.e 'm')

the forms the bija (root) of the moolamantra. And by the addition of

this, it becomes eight syllabled (ashTAkshara). (6)

 

<end translation>

 

 

Here, karma is any ritual action. Vaidikam is that prescribed by the

Vedas and uses vedic mantras. It is tantric when the mantras and

procedures come purely from the Pancharatra works.

Of course, there end result of both the works are the same - attainment

of the joy of eternal service at the feet of the Divine Couple.

Alavandar has showed eloquently that the Pancharatra is wholly in

accordance with the Vedas and this fact has been confirmed again later by

Srimad Ramanuja and Sri Vedanta Desika and others.

 

The above passage answers precisely the questions in front of us.

 

What are the pramanams that proscribe the use of pranavam for women

and shudras?

 

A : The quote from the sesa samhita that Sri Krishna Kalele provided.

And also the verses from above.

 

Now if the pranavam has been proscribed, then how does the moolamantra

remain ashtakshara (8 syllabled) ?

 

A : By the addition of the syllable 'am'. The pramanam for doing this

is the verse 6 above.

 

As Sri Injimettu azhagiyasinger (the 42nd peethadipati about whom our

Chi. Anand Karalapakkam wrote so eloquently) says in his

Sarabodhini, an excellent commentary of the Srimad Rahasyatrayasaram,

Sriman Vedanta Desikar has thought about and answered practically all the

niggling tiny doubts that we mandabuddhigals get. No wonder his thaniyan

says "Even one of his many works is enough to make us, those living on

earth, to rise up to salvation at the feet of the Lord" (.. - Oronru thAne

amaiyAtho dhAraNiyil vAzhvArkku...)

 

After the above passage, Srimad Desikan goes ahead to discuss how this

addition of 'am' instead of the pranavam still has the same potency.

He demonstrates how all the meanings that can be got from the

ashtakasharam with pranavam can also be got from the ashtaksharam with

'am'. Again for each claim, there are logical (grammatical) proofs and

pramanams attached.

 

i am in no way qualified to write about any of these. i hope other people

on the list, who are well qualified, can explain this better.

i apologize for any error or mistake i may have committed. Please

correct me if so.

 

Again, these pramanams are posted only because they are being asked for

and discussed. These should not be twisted in a social context.

We should all learn and follow the ideas in the moving posts of Sri

Sadagopan and the appeals of Sri Krishnamachari and others.

 

sarvam krishnarpanam astu.

 

adiyen shrikanth

[Guest guest]

At 02:28 AM 6/27/98 -0400, Shrikanth, J wrote:

>

> Sri

> Srimate Lakshminarasimha parabrahmane namaha

> Srimate NigamAntha MahAdesikAya Namaha

> Srimate Lakshminarasimha Divya PAdukA Sevaka -

> Srivan Shatagopa Sri NArAyana Yateendra MahAdesikAya Namaha

>

>My pranams to all,

> A : By the addition of the syllable 'am'. The pramanam for doing this

> is the verse 6 above.

>

>As Sri Injimettu azhagiyasinger (the 42nd peethadipati about whom our

>Chi. Anand Karalapakkam wrote so eloquently) says in his

>Sarabodhini, an excellent commentary of the Srimad Rahasyatrayasaram,

>Sriman Vedanta Desikar has thought about and answered practically all the

>niggling tiny doubts that we mandabuddhigals get. No wonder his thaniyan

>says "Even one of his many works is enough to make us, those living on

>earth, to rise up to salvation at the feet of the Lord" (.. - Oronru thAne

>amaiyAtho dhAraNiyil vAzhvArkku...)

>

>After the above passage, Srimad Desikan goes ahead to discuss how this

>addition of 'am' instead of the pranavam still has the same potency.

>He demonstrates how all the meanings that can be got from the

>ashtakasharam with pranavam can also be got from the ashtaksharam with

>'am'. Again for each claim, there are logical (grammatical) proofs and

>pramanams attached.

>sarvam krishnarpanam astu.

>

>adiyen shrikanth

 

 

Shrikanth has done a good service in quoting this from Rahasyatrayasaram.

Thanks a lot; This post unequivocally puts the pramanam issue to rest.

 

thanks

 

adiyen Krishna