Pancha Sooktham recitation

[Guest guest]

> Sriman Sunder Kidambi very kindly provided a post-script file of

> the Devanagari text of the Pancha Sooktams according to Sri Vaishnava

> Sampradayam. This will be chanted during Tirumanjanam at the 600th

> Anniversary Celebration of Ahobila Matham in NJ. All interested

> in joining the Veda Goshti can download the file from:

 

Dear Bhagavatas,

I have heard from a few UpAdhyAyAs that one should recite Pancha Sooktams

only after learning it from a teacher, since it is part of the Vedas.

Is this true? Can someone shed more light on this? Are we allowed to recite

Pancha Sooktams by just reading from the script?

Regards,

R. Sridharan.

--

-----------

R. Sridharan Tel: (65) 874-6859 (O)

Senior Engineer, (65) 773-5235 (H)

Kent Ridge Digital Labs (formerly Fax: (65) 774-4990

known as Institute of Systems Science), Internet: sridhar

21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace,

Singapore 119613.

-----------

[Guest guest]

> Dear Bhagavatas,

> I have heard from a few UpAdhyAyAs that one should recite Pancha Sooktams

> only after learning it from a teacher, since it is part of the Vedas.

> Is this true? Can someone shed more light on this? Are we allowed to recite

> Pancha Sooktams by just reading from the script?

 

The people who told you this are absolutely correct.

The Vedas are not random words, nor are they mere

words. They are words that are set in a particular

order with particular intonations (svara) that have

a definite meaning. This meaning is said to reflect

the very nature of reality, both material and immaterial.

Saying the Vedas wrong is tantamount to misrepresenting

reality, and is the greatest disservice one can possibly

do to those divine words.

 

There are very practical reasons as to why it is

insisted that the Vedas be learnt through person-to-person

contact and never from books.

 

First and foremost,

since the svara and order of the words is of utmost

importance, the student is best able to learn them

correctly when the teacher hears the student repeat

after him and corrects whatever mistakes there are.

 

Second, books are very often wrong in their

words and svara. It doesn't matter how reputable

the source (Ramakrishna Mutt, Ahobila Mutt, etc.) --

printed texts of the Vedas contain numerous mistakes.

 

Finally, reciting Vedas in public incorrectly interferes

with those who are reciting them properly; it is no

exaggeration to say that wrong and unlearned recitation

is like pouring hot lead into the other reciters' ears.

 

There is no substitute to learning these in person.

 

A PLEA: No matter who who are, whether you consider

yourself a brahmin or otherwise, PLEASE DO NOT RECITE

SECTIONS OF THE VEDAS WITHOUT LEARNING THEM IN PERSON.

 

There are always alternatives to reciting the Vedas.

During formal worship / tiru-ArAdhanam, you can

simply recite the ashTAkshara-mantra or sections

of the Divya Prabandham instead of the Vedas. These

are just as valid and sometimes sweeter, since we

can make sense of their meaning without difficulty.

 

I have seen many instances in this country where

people (particularly those born into brahmin families)

think that devotion necessitates Vedic recitation

at a temple. All too often, they perform this recitation

without any prior learning.

 

For example, in many venues, people wantonly recite

the nArAyaNa upanishad, a section of the atharva veda.

Not only have they not learnt the upanishad from someone

who knows it properly (few do, as it is from the atharva

veda), this text plays no part in any traditional temple

ritual in India. There is no need for it to be recited

at all, much less without proper learning.

Need we go to this extent to show disrespect to the Vedas?

 

The Vedas are our wealth. Let's protect it!

 

Mani

[Guest guest]

----------

> Mani Varadarajan <mani

> bhakti

> Re: Pancha Sooktham recitation

> Tuesday, September 08, 1998 2:38 PM

>

> > Dear Bhagavatas,

> > I have heard from a few UpAdhyAyAs that one should recite Pancha

Sooktams

> > only after learning it from a teacher, since it is part of the Vedas.

> > Is this true? Can someone shed more light on this? Are we allowed to

recite

> > Pancha Sooktams by just reading from the script?

>

> The people who told you this are absolutely correct.

> The Vedas are not random words, nor are they mere

> words. They are words that are set in a particular

> order with particular intonations (svara) that have

> a definite meaning. This meaning is said to reflect

> the very nature of reality, both material and immaterial.

> Saying the Vedas wrong is tantamount to misrepresenting

> reality, and is the greatest disservice one can possibly

> do to those divine words....

> There are always alternatives to reciting the Vedas.

> During formal worship / tiru-ArAdhanam, you can

> simply recite the ashTAkshara-mantra or sections

> of the Divya Prabandham instead of the Vedas. These

> are just as valid and sometimes sweeter, since we

> can make sense of their meaning without difficulty.

>

---------------------

 

This leads me to the question as to whether such a rule also applies to the

divya prabhandam, because it is considered by our sAmpradayam to be equal

to vEda in meaning and importance. This question is a very general one,

and extends even to those commonly known paasurams such as thirupallAndu

and thirupAvai.

 

adiyEn,

 

Mohan

[Guest guest]

Mohan wrote, regarding rules for learning the Vedas:

> This leads me to the question as to whether such a rule also applies to the

> divya prabhandam, because it is considered by our sAmpradayam to be equal

> to vEda in meaning and importance. This question is a very general one,

> and extends even to those commonly known paasurams such as thirupallAndu

> and thirupAvai.

 

The Prabandham is equal to the Sanskrit Vedanta in the sense

that they convey the same meaning and are of equal authority.

However, they are not subject to the same rules. In fact,

the greatness of the Prabandham is that it can be learnt

and recited by all, at nearly any time, without any restriction.

While it is always better to learn the Prabandham from someone

who knows it (it is also easier to learn it this way), it is

not a requirement, as far as I know.

 

There is only one restriction on Prabandham recitation that

is generally observed: the Tiruvaymoli should be recited sitting

in the Lord's presence, with the Lord himself sitting (i.e.,

not in puRappaadu [procession]) listening to it. This is because

of the unique respect due Nammalvar and the Tiruvaymoli. This

rule does not apply to other parts of the Prabandham.

 

This does not mean that the Tiruvaymoli can't be recited to

oneself on one's own time, or discussed amongst friends -- it

only concerns formal recitation as part of worship.

 

Oh yes, and one other rule regarding the Prabandham is this:

the taniyans [invocatory stanzas in praise of the Alvar and

the composition] should be recited before it.

 

daasan Mani

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhaktas,

 

Mani makes excellent points. Let me add that that the following

six aspects must be strictly adhered to while reciting the Vedas.

 

(1) Proper speed. Unnecessarily speeding up destroys the the

majesty of the Veda Vakyams.

(2) Mixing music and Vedams: This should not be done at all.

(3) Shaking the head while chanting (Shira Kampi) to generate

increased intensity of sound is a prohibition.

(4) Reading from text: This is again a taboo.

(5) Reciting the Veda Vakyams without understanding their meaning:

There can be no greater disservice than this.

(6) Weak-throated recitation (Alpa Kantam).

 

Adiyen is the first one to admit that he is the prime offender in

all the above respects.

 

Let me also point out that while engaging in Veda Parayanam,

one needs to have purity of thought, sound and intonation. These

can result only when Deha Shuddhi (Purity of body-

i.e., a body disciplined by performance of regular Anushtanam),

Manas Shuddhi (tranquility of mind and clarity of thought) and Sthana

Shuddhi (purity of the place where the chanting takes place)

prevail. If one emphasizes strict adherence to these rules, the

number of occassions and places where such a recitation can take

place are very few in number!

 

It is absolutely not true that the Narayana Upanishad has no place

in temple rituals. Such authoritative statements without facts to

back them up are at best misleading. On more than one occassion,

I have witnessed its rendition during Tirumanjanam, and upon

completion of Alankaram in Temples in India. On the other hand it

is absolutely true that there are not many qualified exponents of

Atharvana Vedam in the southern parts of India. Consequently, there is

a dearth of knowledgable people from whom one can learn the Narayana

Upanishad with proper Swaram. Practitioners of Atharvana Vedam

can be found in Bihar, Uttar Pradesh and Madhya Pradesh.

 

Namo Narayana,

 

Muralidhar Rangaswamy

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

On Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 06:49:37AM -0700, muralidhar rangaswamy wrote:

> It is absolutely not true that the Narayana Upanishad has no place

> in temple rituals. Such authoritative statements without facts to

> back them up are at best misleading.

 

Murali,

 

My apologies if I was mistaken in my statement.

Can you clarify where the nArAyaNa upanishad is

in regular use in temple ritual?

 

My impression was that other than in the

"mantra pushpam", Vedic recitation in Vaishnava temples

is almost exclusively from the Yajur Veda. Pancaratra

temple priests are generally required to be from Yajur Veda.

 

Mani

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Mani Varadarajan :

 

In Ahobila Mutt SampradhAyam ( Sri Sannidhi ) ,

Talikai is presented and is followed by

KarpUra Haaratthi . Then follows Vedam , PurANams,

Divya Prabhandham as SaaRRumurai Kramam .

NaarAyaNOpanishad has a place here in the section

on Atharva vedam .It is recited without svarams .

After that Apasthampa Gruhya Suthram , Srimadh

RaamAyaNam passage ,Vishnu PurANam , Srimadh Bhagavadh

GitA , Srimadh BhAgavahtam , AhObila MahAthmyam,

ALavandhAr sthOthram , Sri BhAshyam , Sri GithArtha Sangraham ,

Sri Gita Bhaashyam, Sri Rahasya Thraya Saaram ,

PaadhukhA Sahsram excerpt , Yathi Raaja sapthathi ,

Sapth aRathna MaalikA , Srimadh Adhi VaNN SatakOpa

YathIndhra Vaibhava chandrikA , SampradhAya Prakasam

and then sevai , SambhAvanAs .

 

The AtharvaNa Vedam portion with svaram is :

sannO dEvIrabhishtaya ---sravanthuna:

 

NaarAyaNOpanishad follows .Aapasthampa Gruhya

SUthram is the next one in that order .

 

V.Sadagopan

 

At 10:06 AM 9/9/98 -0700, you wrote:

>On Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 06:49:37AM -0700, muralidhar rangaswamy wrote:

>> It is absolutely not true that the Narayana Upanishad has no place

>> in temple rituals. Such authoritative statements without facts to

>> back them up are at best misleading.

>

>Murali,

>

>My apologies if I was mistaken in my statement.

>Can you clarify where the nArAyaNa upanishad is

>in regular use in temple ritual?

>Mani

 

It is covered in the above section .

>

>My impression was that other than in the

>"mantra pushpam", Vedic recitation in Vaishnava temples

>is almost exclusively from the Yajur Veda. Pancaratra

>temple priests are generally required to be from Yajur Veda.

>Mani

 

The reason why the Vedic recitation in (South Indian)

VaishNavite Temples is in Yajur Vedam is because of

the dominance of Yajur Vedam in Tamil Naadu and

Andhra PradEsh . Rg Vedam and Saama Vedam is not

that prevalent compared to Yajus SaakhA in south .

Yajur Vedam is also tied with the rituals .

Ideally , you would see the use of Rg Vedam on

the banks of river Narmadaa and Atharva Vedam in the North .

There are detailed mapping of the prevalence of

individula saakhAs in different parts of India

and their influence on the local languages .

The VaikAnasA preists also follow the Yajur Vedic

tradition in their worships .

 

This is an interesting topic . I wrote a 64 page article

on Veda SaakhAs and related matter in Tamil few

years ago .That was read by prakrutham (Current )

Azhagiyasingar in his purvAsramam .I gave another

copy to Sri Murali Rangaswami . Research on Vedams

and Vedic topics is a wonderfully engaging activity

for us .

V.Sadagopan

[Guest guest]

Dear Sriman Sadagopan,

 

Thank you very much for a wonderfully informative note on the

Aradhana Kramam followed at Sri Sannidhi of Ahobila Matham.

I am short of time to write in more detail due to a forthcoming work

related trip to the west coast. I had an opportunity

to discuss the role of Narayana Upanishad in Temple rituals with

Pancharatra Agama Praveena, U. Ve. Sri Srinivasa Bhattar. His

response echoed many of the points made in your post. I shall

summarize them upon my return.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Muralidhar Rangaswamy

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>Sadagopan <sgopan

>Re: Pancha Sooktham recitation

>Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:23:41 -0400 (EDT)

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>

>Dear Sri Mani Varadarajan :

>

>In Ahobila Mutt SampradhAyam ( Sri Sannidhi ) ,

>Talikai is presented and is followed by

>KarpUra Haaratthi . Then follows Vedam , PurANams,

>Divya Prabhandham as SaaRRumurai Kramam .

>NaarAyaNOpanishad has a place here in the section

>on Atharva vedam .It is recited without svarams .

>After that Apasthampa Gruhya Suthram , Srimadh

>RaamAyaNam passage ,Vishnu PurANam , Srimadh Bhagavadh

>GitA , Srimadh BhAgavahtam , AhObila MahAthmyam,

>ALavandhAr sthOthram , Sri BhAshyam , Sri GithArtha Sangraham ,

>Sri Gita Bhaashyam, Sri Rahasya Thraya Saaram ,

>PaadhukhA Sahsram excerpt , Yathi Raaja sapthathi ,

>Sapth aRathna MaalikA , Srimadh Adhi VaNN SatakOpa

>YathIndhra Vaibhava chandrikA , SampradhAya Prakasam

>and then sevai , SambhAvanAs .

>

>The AtharvaNa Vedam portion with svaram is :

>sannO dEvIrabhishtaya ---sravanthuna:

>

>NaarAyaNOpanishad follows .Aapasthampa Gruhya

>SUthram is the next one in that order .

>

>V.Sadagopan

>

>At 10:06 AM 9/9/98 -0700, you wrote:

>>On Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 06:49:37AM -0700, muralidhar rangaswamy wrote:

>>> It is absolutely not true that the Narayana Upanishad has no place

>>> in temple rituals. Such authoritative statements without facts to

>>> back them up are at best misleading.

>>

>>Murali,

>>

>>My apologies if I was mistaken in my statement.

>>Can you clarify where the nArAyaNa upanishad is

>>in regular use in temple ritual?

>>Mani

>

>It is covered in the above section .

>

>>

>>My impression was that other than in the

>>"mantra pushpam", Vedic recitation in Vaishnava temples

>>is almost exclusively from the Yajur Veda. Pancaratra

>>temple priests are generally required to be from Yajur Veda.

>>Mani

>

>The reason why the Vedic recitation in (South Indian)

>VaishNavite Temples is in Yajur Vedam is because of

>the dominance of Yajur Vedam in Tamil Naadu and

>Andhra PradEsh . Rg Vedam and Saama Vedam is not

>that prevalent compared to Yajus SaakhA in south .

>Yajur Vedam is also tied with the rituals .

>Ideally , you would see the use of Rg Vedam on

>the banks of river Narmadaa and Atharva Vedam in the North .

>There are detailed mapping of the prevalence of

>individula saakhAs in different parts of India

>and their influence on the local languages .

>The VaikAnasA preists also follow the Yajur Vedic

>tradition in their worships .

>

>This is an interesting topic . I wrote a 64 page article

>on Veda SaakhAs and related matter in Tamil few

>years ago .That was read by prakrutham (Current )

>Azhagiyasingar in his purvAsramam .I gave another

>copy to Sri Murali Rangaswami . Research on Vedams

>and Vedic topics is a wonderfully engaging activity

>for us .

>V.Sadagopan

>

>

>

>

 

 

____

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[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Mani,

I have also heard that no part of Vedas can be recited without the Svara etc

and that a recitation without regard to these will not only be ineffective

but counterproductive.

 

One has to be extremely careful in reciting these and the correct

pronunciation, the Svarabedam etc have to be learned at the feet of a

qualified Acharya before venturing to recite.

 

For that matter, Azhagiya Singhar in his Kalakshepam used to demonstrate how

Ashtakshara and Dvaya Mantras are to be recited. A casual rendering is an

insult to the holiest of Mantras contained in the Vedas. But, he used to leave

out Charamasloka. Obviously, Charamasloka being from Smriti (being part of

Mahabharata) is not subject to such rigours. May be some erudite members can

clarify this aspect.

 

Dasoham

Anbil Ramaswamy

[Guest guest]

On Thu, Sep 10, 1998 at 10:23:41PM -0400, Sadagopan wrote:

> Dear Sri Mani Varadarajan :

>

> In Ahobila Mutt SampradhAyam ( Sri Sannidhi ) ,

> Talikai is presented and is followed by

> KarpUra Haaratthi . Then follows Vedam , PurANams,

> Divya Prabhandham as SaaRRumurai Kramam .

> NaarAyaNOpanishad has a place here in the section

> on Atharva vedam .It is recited without svarams .

> After that Apasthampa Gruhya Suthram ...

 

Dear Sri Sadagopan,

 

Please correct me if any of the following is wrong.

I am aware that the nArAyaNa upanishad section

starting with "om ity agre vyAharet" is recited

after taLikai samarpaNam, during the "mantra pushpam"

section. I believe this is because it glorifies the

ashTAkshara mantra that is dear to Vedantins. However,

I have always heard it chanted with svara -- or so

it sounded to me. I was under the impression that

no section of the Veda should be formally chanted without

paying attention to mAtra, svara, varna, etc. Is this

not the verdict of the taittirIya upanishad, first

chapter?

 

In any case, my point (and please correct any mistakes

in this statement) was that that entire text of the

nArAyaNa upanishad, beginning with "adha purusho ha vai"

has no official place in temple worship, and that there

consequently is no need to chant it. _If_ it is to be

chanted, it should be chanted properly with svara, which

means that one should have done adhyayana in it under

someone who is qualified.

 

Once again I must refer to my experience with Sri Rangapriya

svAmi. Several people were reciting sections from the Vedas

in his presence -- purusha sUktam, vishvakarma sUktam, etc.

Finally, nArAyaNa upanishad was started. There is a phrase

in the upanishad:

 

yad bhUtam yac ca bhavyam

 

Immediately after the goshTi recited this line, Rangapriya

svAmi told them to stop and asked someone to repeat what

was just said. He said again:

 

yad bhUtam yac ca bhavyam

^^^^^^

 

with the appropriate svara, pronounced exactly as written above.

 

Rangapriya svAmi pointed out that this was incorrect.

According to Vedic rules for sandhi here, the correct

pronounciation is:

 

yad bhutain yac ca bhavyam

^^^^^

 

with the "tain" being particularly nasal. This same

pronounciation occurs in the line "tain yajnam barhi

Siprokshan" in the purusha sUkta.

 

What I gathered from his correction was that utmost

attention must be paid to sandhi, svara, and pronounciation

of the Vedic words. We cannot be casual about it.

Consequently, we should recite said Vedic passages

only after learning them properly.

 

Mani

[Guest guest]

Sriman Anbil Ramaswamy wrote:

> For that matter, Azhagiya Singhar in his Kalakshepam used to demonstrate how

> Ashtakshara and Dvaya Mantras are to be recited. A casual rendering is an

> insult to the holiest of Mantras contained in the Vedas.

>From what I gathered from acharyas and their writings,

the ashTAkshara comes in multiple forms. The Vedic form

has a certain svara pattern. The Tantric form does not

necessitate svara.

 

The dvayam does not have svara, but it is no doubt still

important to say the mantram properly.

 

The benevolent rishis point out that if someone commits

an error or lapse in practice in ignorance or innocence,

no fault attaches to him or her. Consequently, if someone

says a Veda mantra incorrectly because of lack of knowledge,

no fault attaches to that person.

 

However, sin or paapam is not really the issue.

 

Leaving aside all notion of sin, I feel it behooves

us to try to do our best in our service to Him. In this

respect, this includes trying to respect the rules of

Vedic recitation as much as humanly possible. No doubt

the Lord is infinitely pleased by whatever little we do

in the service of Him; the very fact that we are trying

to sing His praise is the source of unending delight for

Him. He will naturally ignore whatever mistakes are made

in such sincere service. But from our perspective, true,

selfless dedication, in my opinion, requires trying to do

this duty to the best of one's ability, respecting the work

and its rules as much as we can.

 

It is all the more easier given how many alternatives

the benevolent rishis have laid before us. If one is

simply incapable of learning and reciting the Veda

correctly, there are hundreds of alternatives that

in no way are of lesser spiritual worth.

 

aDiyEn iraamaanusa daasan

Mani