kaNNan piRandhAn! - 2

[Guest guest]

Sri :

Srimate Sri Lakshmi Nrusimha Para Brahmane Namaha

Srimate Sri Lakshmi - Nrusimha Divya PAdukA Sevaka -

Srivan Shatagopa Sri NArAyana Yateendra MahAdesikAya Namaha

 

Dear devotees,

Namo NArAyanA . pranAmams.

 

On Sat, 22 Aug 1998, Sri Sadagopan wrote:

> In summary , GaurangA is the Combined form of

> Sri KrishNA ( VrajEsvarA ) and Sri RadhA RaaNi( Nappinnai?).

 

adiyen asked Sri U.Ve.VillUr KarunAkaran swAmy about the identity of

nappinnai pirAtti & Smt rAdhA . Based on swAmi's response :

 

" Smt rAdhA is certainly not nappinnai pirAtti . They are two different

personalities , as evident from the purAnAs. Smt rAdhA is not mentioned

in either Srimad BhAgavatham or Vishnu purAnam & the like. In pAdma

purAnam , she is mentioned as one of the gopIs & her origin is traced

to "GolOkA" (ie. KrishNalokA) , one amongst the lOkAs that are presided by

Sriman nArAyaNA through His vibhava avatArams " .

 

There are various lokAs each presided by a vibhava avatAram

ie. rAma lOkA , KrishnalOkA etc exists within the material realm.

Ardent devotees of such vibhava avatArams will go to such lokAs &

enjoy the communion with Sriman nArAyaNA in that particular form.

From there , they might adopt either "prapatti" or "bhakti yogA"

to ascend to "Parama padam" ie. Sri vaikuNTham , the supreme abode

of Sriman nArAyaNA. It is to be noted that those who have crossed

the vIrajA river & went into Sri VaikuNTham have already left behind

their connection with "prakruti" ie. matter . Basically , as long as

connection with prakruti exists , it means that "karmA" is still

binding that jIvAtmA. So , in Sri VaikuNTham since the connection with

prakruti no longer exists for the jIvATmA, it has got rid of its karmA

also.

 

mokshA is the state at which the dharmabhoota jn~Anam of the jIvAtmA

is fully expanded & makes it act perfectly according to its svaroopam

ie. uninterrupted bhagavad anubhavam & kainkaryam .This is ofcourse

possible only at Sri VaikuNTham .

 

The curse to jayA & vijayA were given by maharishIs who were also

having connection with material body (ie. karmA in whatsoever amount

is still there with those maharishIs ) . These curses etc occurs only

due to the connection with prakruti . There is no question of

either cursing someone or making someone have connection with

prakruti again at Sri vaikuNTham . Everything is made up of the

material called "Suddha Sattvam" at Sri VaikuNTham & not even a trace

of "prakruti" can be seen out there .

 

The meaning of "mokshA" is completely lost if someone says that a

jIvAtmA that has obtained mokshA for now will come in contact with

prakruti later , because of its "bad desires" to enjoy "prakruti"

instead of serving nArAyaNA . This type of view referred as "fall

down" of a jIvAtmA from Sri VaikuNTham to material world is not only a

reality ( has no basis from sAstrAs) but also highly illogical for

the following reasons :

 

a. mokshA implies that one is going to have _permanent_ bliss due

to the bhagavad anubhavam & kainkaryam to the Divya Dampati at Sri

VaikuNTham . If the bliss is not permanent , then it is still not

"mokshA" .

 

b. Sri VaikuNTham has only Suddha sattvam . There is no "source" for

a jIvAtmA to come up with a bad desire viz. to enjoy prakruti

instead of serving nArAyaNA . Such a desire can happen _only_ when

the jIvAtmA has connection with prakruti. Since there is no trace

of prakruti in Sri VaikuNTham ,this is a complete impossibility.

Moreover , the dharmabhoota jn~Anam of the mukta jIvAtmA is

completely expanded & it is already a sarvaj~nA .

 

Ofcourse , a jIvAtmA from one of the vibhava lOkAs like rAma lOkA ,

KrishNa lOkA etc can come down to earth & perform either "bhakti" or

"prapatti" and obtain moksham. But , those who have already done

"prapatti" will proceed directly to Sri VaikuNTham & this is known as

"sAyujyA" by which oneness with respect to Sriman nArAyaNA in terms of

dharma bhoota jn~Anam , kalyAna gunAs , divine form etc are awarded by

Him . nArAyaNA is the only Sriya:pathi & no jIvAtmA is so. He performs

creation , maintainance & destruction of material world which a jIvAtmA

(muktA/nityasUrI) is not empowered to . These are the differences apart

from the inherent differences that is present with respect to the

swaroopam. All muktAs & nityasUrIs serve the Divya Dampati in various

ways according to their swaroopam .

 

There can't be many Sri vaikuNThams (ultimate abode/spritual abode) for

the simple reason that a muktA is sarvaj~nA => he knows the happenings

at any place & at any time. The presence of different Spiritual Worlds

ie. multiple Sri VaikuNThams has the implication that a muktA in one

Sri VaikuNTham doesn't know the happenings in another Sri VaikuNTham .

This multiple Sri VaikuNTham theory has this implication because a

muktA in one Sri VaikuNTham performs bhagavad anubhavam & kainkaryam

_only_ to Sriman nArAyaNA in one of His forms presiding in that Sri

VaikuNTham & doesn't relate himself to other forms of Sriman nArAyaNA.

Since a muktA is sarvaj~nA, there is no meaning to such division of

space.

 

Namo NArAyanA

Adiyen

Anantha PadmanAbha dAsan

Sarvam Sri KrishnArpanamastu

[Guest guest]

>

>On Sat, 22 Aug 1998, Sri Sadagopan wrote:

>

>> In summary , GaurangA is the Combined form of

>> Sri KrishNA ( VrajEsvarA ) and Sri RadhA RaaNi( Nappinnai?).

 

This question mark within the paranthesis was

intended as reference to some , who equate

Nappinnai to RadhA RaaNi. I should have explained that

a little more precisely . I might have given the

impression that I have some doubts about this

realtionship /identity . I was making an academic point

about the fundamental beliefs of Gaudiya VaishNavites ,

independent of anyone's value judgement questioning its

authenticity or veracity.

 

It is old hat however for knowledgable Sri VaishNavAs

that Nappinnai is identical to NiLA DEvi . Regret my imprecision

here in not using one more sentence to state that some

ViashNavAs believe that RadhA is Napinnai .

>

> adiyen asked Sri U.Ve.VillUr KarunAkaran swAmy about the identity of

> nappinnai pirAtti & Smt rAdhA . Based on swAmi's response :

>

> " Smt rAdhA is certainly not nappinnai pirAtti . They are two different

>personalities , as evident from the purAnAs. Smt rAdhA is not mentioned

>in either Srimad BhAgavatham or Vishnu purAnam & the like. In pAdma

>purAnam , she is mentioned as one of the gopIs & her origin is traced

>to "GolOkA" (ie. KrishNalokA) , one amongst the lOkAs that are presided by

>Sriman nArAyaNA through His vibhava avatArams " .

 

Nappinnai is not mentioned in Bhaagavatham or

VishNu purANam etal . According to the opinion of

my fellow villager , play mate and friend of our family for

many years , Sri KaruNAkaran Swamy , I have to interpolate

then that Nappinnai belongs to GolOkam (i-e) KrishNa lokam

as well referred to above . ANDAL however appeals to

Nappinnai in ThiruppAvai in this "gOlOkam "and I have

to assume that She is an amsam of MahA Lakshmi ,

Since KrishNA is the Vibhava avathAram of

Sriman NaarAyaNA .

 

About Jaya and VijayA and their "descent"

to earth as a result of the curse etc ,

I will write separately . That is going

to be a long one !

 

V.Sadagopan

[Guest guest]

>> There are various lokAs each presided by a vibhava avatAram

>> ie. rAma lOkA , KrishnalOkA etc exists within the material realm.

>> Ardent devotees of such vibhava avatArams will go to such lokAs &

>> enjoy the communion with Sriman nArAyaNA in that particular form.

>> From there , they might adopt either "prapatti" or "bhakti yogA"

>> to ascend to "Parama padam" ie. Sri vaikuNTham , the supreme abode

>> of Sriman nArAyaNA. It is to be noted that those who have crossed

>> the vIrajA river & went into Sri VaikuNTham have already left behind

>> their connection with "prakruti" ie. matter . Basically , as long as

>> connection with prakruti exists , it means that "karmA" is still

>> binding that jIvAtmA. So , in Sri VaikuNTham since the connection with

>> prakruti no longer exists for the jIvATmA, it has got rid of its karmA

>> also.

>

>Jya and Vijaya are recognized as Nithya suris along

>with GarudA , VishvaksEnA in our sampradhAyam .

>

>Sanaka , SanathanA , SanathkumArA and Saanath SujAthar

>are the Maanasika PuthrAs of Chathur Mukha BrahmA .

>The father asked his four sons to engage in Srushti

>Kaaryam according to our purANAs . They rejected

>the request of the Father due to their lack of

>interest in this world.The angry BrahmA then created

>Rudran , the Nine prajApathis startign from MarIchi ,

>Naaradar and Kardamaa .He then created Manu , His wife

>and sakala VidhyAs .Creation and growth of the world

>went on inspite of the lack of interest of the four

>first born sons of BrahmA .

>

>Srimadh Bahagavatham states that the Four sages

>went to Sri Vaikuntam .Only those have no sambhandham

>can enter Sri Vaikuntam .SanakAdhi munis have

>the aprAkrutha sarIram and could enter readily

>Sri Vaikuntam .Possession of that AprAkruthic

>body is attributed to the Tapas of BrahmA ,

>their father .Sri Sukar , the author of

>Srimadh BhAgavatham describes thru 12 slOkams

>the AprAkruthic beauty of the Parama Padham

>( Sri Vaikuntam ) entered by the 4 sages to

>have the darsanam of Sri VaikuntanAthan

>( Thiru ViNNagarappan ).He says that even

>the bees there swarming the VaanamAlai of

>the Lord perform Hari Naama SankIrthanam

>( BrunghAdhipE Hari KathAmiva gAyamAnE).

>Our sages arirve at the seventh gate

>after passing thru the first six gates

>of Sri Vaikuntam protected by Jaya and VijayA

>as the DwAra PaalakAs .

>

>The four sages are avadhUtha sanyAsis .

>Even if they are very old , they look like

>five year old boys . They are veterans

>of the Chidh-Achidh-Isvara tattvams.

>The dwaara paalakAs , who should know for better

>stopped the four "boys" with their canes

>and interfered with their desire to have

>Bhagavadh darsanam .BhAgavatham describes

>the awakening of a little anger even in these

>Brahma Jn~Anis this way :

>

>" Yeeshath kAmAnujEna sahasA tha

>upapluthAkshA :"

>

>Sri NaarayaNa Bhaattadhiri in Srimadh NaarayaNIyam

>following the path shown by Srimadh BhAgavatham

>states that the rare speck of anger arose

>in the minds of the four MunisvarALs and

>subsided quickly as the water that was heated

>subsides with time :

>

>tEshAm cha chitthE padahm aapa kOpa:

>sarvam Bhavath prEraNaiva BhUman

>

>The above lines of Srimadh NaarAyaNIyam

>( 11th Dasakam : SlOkam3 ) provides the

>clue according to the tradition of

>SukhAchArya in His Srimadh BhAgavatham .

>Sri Bhattdhiri asked Sri GuruvAyurappan:

>Is that what happened in Your Vaikuntam ,

>when the four sages came to visit You ?

>Bhagavaan Is said to have nodded with His head

>and approved the veracity of that description .

>

>What is it that he approved ?

>" Sarvam Bhavath PrEraNaiva ".

>The Lord is addressed as BhUman here .

>He is saluted as the One , who is sarva

>VyApi . Bhattadhiri asks:

>Is it true that the arrival of the four sages

>to Your Sri Vaikuntam and being stopped by

>Your gate Keepers and they being cursed by

>the Brahma Jn!Anis ALL HAPPENED BRCAUSE OF

>YOUR SANKALPAM ? Did the normal Brahma Jn~Anis

>lost their composure because of Your prEraNai?

>Is it because of Your wish to incarnate as

>VarAha BhagavAn , Nrusimhan and RaamachandrA

>that you sat as anthayAmi of these four sages

>and encouraged them to curse Your nithya Suris ?

>Is that why You changed the mind of Your

>servants from worshipping and welcoming

>the sages and made them stop the Visitors

>from having your darsanam ?

>

>The two Dwara paalakaas attained aasuric births

>and descended to the earth for BhagavAn's avathAra

>kaaryam .They begged for Hari SamaraNam during

>their existence in the earth due to the curse.

>They were granted that boon by the four sages .

>

>The curse ( Srimadh BhAgavatham 3.15.34)

>was that they attain three asura Janmams

>known each of which was marked by KrOdham ,

>Kaamam and LObham rspectively . Each of these

>three guNams will be dominant (pradhAnyam )

>in each of these births. That is why Sukhar

>points out that in their first birth as AsurA

>brothers , they were HiraNya Kasipu and HirantyAkshA

>known for their anger at the Lord . In the second

>birth ,they were RavaNA and KumbhakarNA known for

>their kaamam (lust ); In the third birth , they

>were SisupAlA and Dahntha VakrAs known for their

>lObham .

>

>BhagavAn and Jn~Anis are inseparable in terms of

>being objects of worship . Any aparAdham done to

>the Jn~Ani is equivalent to the apachAram done to

>the Lord as indicatd by BhagavAn's own words:

>JnAnithvAthamaiva mE matham .Upanishad says:

>aathamaj~nam archayEth bhUthikAmA : ( One

>who wants Isvaryam , any kind including

>Moksha Isvaryam , should worship Jn~Anis

>like a sadAchAryan .

>

>That inmy humble opinion the story behind

>the descent of the Jaya VijayAs as Asuraas

>for BhagavAn's avathAra Kaaryam .

>

>Without the Sanakaadhi MunisvarAs and the

>Lord's prEraNai , there would be no

>VarAha avathAram or VarAha sarama slOkam ,

>RaamAvatharam or His sarama SlOkam ,

>KrishNAvathAram and the Sarama slOkam

>enshrined in Srimadh Bhagavadh GitA .

>We have to thank Thiru ViNNagarappan ,

>the BhUman , the Bhumi piraatti Nathan

>for His avathArams (decent from His

>parama padham ) to bless us for all

>times to come thru SaraNAgathi thru

>a SadAchAryan .

>>

>> mokshA is the state at which the dharmabhoota jn~Anam of the jIvAtmA

>> is fully expanded & makes it act perfectly according to its svaroopam

>> ie. uninterrupted bhagavad anubhavam & kainkaryam .This is ofcourse

>> possible only at Sri VaikuNTham .

>>

>> The curse to jayA & vijayA were given by maharishIs who were also

>> having connection with material body (ie. karmA in whatsoever amount

>> is still there with those maharishIs ) . These curses etc occurs only

>> due to the connection with prakruti . There is no question of

>> either cursing someone or making someone have connection with

>> prakruti again at Sri vaikuNTham . Everything is made up of the

>> material called "Suddha Sattvam" at Sri VaikuNTham & not even a trace

>> of "prakruti" can be seen out there .

>

>The general understanding of the curses by

>SanakA et al according to Srimadh BhAgaavtham

>has been covered earlier.

>>

>> The meaning of "mokshA" is completely lost if someone says that a

>> jIvAtmA that has obtained mokshA for now will come in contact with

>> prakruti later , because of its "bad desires" to enjoy "prakruti"

>> instead of serving nArAyaNA . This type of view referred as "fall

>> down" of a jIvAtmA from Sri VaikuNTham to material world is not only a

>> reality ( has no basis from sAstrAs) but also highly illogical for

>> the following reasons :

>>

>> a. mokshA implies that one is going to have _permanent_ bliss due

>> to the bhagavad anubhavam & kainkaryam to the Divya Dampati at Sri

>> VaikuNTham . If the bliss is not permanent , then it is still not

>> "mokshA" .

>>

>> b. Sri VaikuNTham has only Suddha sattvam . There is no "source" for

>> a jIvAtmA to come up with a bad desire viz. to enjoy prakruti

>> instead of serving nArAyaNA . Such a desire can happen _only_ when

>> the jIvAtmA has connection with prakruti. Since there is no trace

>> of prakruti in Sri VaikuNTham ,this is a complete impossibility.

>> Moreover , the dharmabhoota jn~Anam of the mukta jIvAtmA is

>> completely expanded & it is already a sarvaj~nA .

>

>>

>> There can't be many Sri vaikuNThams (ultimate abode/spritual abode) for

>> the simple reason that a muktA is sarvaj~nA => he knows the happenings

>> at any place & at any time. The presence of different Spiritual Worlds

>> ie. multiple Sri VaikuNThams has the implication that a muktA in one

>> Sri VaikuNTham doesn't know the happenings in another Sri VaikuNTham .

>> This multiple Sri VaikuNTham theory has this implication because a

>> muktA in one Sri VaikuNTham performs bhagavad anubhavam & kainkaryam

>> _only_ to Sriman nArAyaNA in one of His forms presiding in that Sri

>> VaikuNTham & doesn't relate himself to other forms of Sriman nArAyaNA.

>> Since a muktA is sarvaj~nA, there is no meaning to such division of

>> space.

>

>I guess you are referring to Kaarya Vaikuntam mentioned

>by Sri mani VaradarAjan here .

>

>General comments : many of the confusion come from

>trying to develop a unified theory to accomodate

>Sruthi , Smruthi , IthihAsAs , BHaagaavtha PurANAs and

>Sthala PurANAs . Brilliant inturtive insights

>like the nature of Electricity following the

>Scientific parlance as explained by Sri Sudharsan

>cut thru a lot of pedantic lore and makes us

>appreciate the concepts clearly .

>

>Confusions inevitably arise , but ,

>when one reverts to Sruthis as PramANam , these

>are resolved as shown by Swami Desikan following

>his guru Paramparai . Some times , the sruthi

>Vaakhyams are not easy to absorb and is not

>for one and all.Devotion to the ArchA murthys

>of One's choice and MahA viswAsam in the Lord

>of Sri Vaikuntam ( Thiru ViNNagarappan/

>AakAsa nagarIsan ) and SaraNAgathi at

>a sadAchAryan's feet and having

>Bhavyam thereafter would be the routes to

>paramAnandham in this earth and bliss of

>nithya kaimkaryam in the other.

>

>Oppiliappan Koil VaradAchAri Sadagopan

>

>>Sarvam Sri KrishnArpanamastu

>

>

>

>

>>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Sadagopan,

 

Thank you for explaining the "fall" of jaya and vijaya

in a much more satisfying and less contrived manner

than I had done earlier. This should teach me to not

issue conclusive answers without properly studying

the source material!

 

Further, you wrote:

>General comments : many of the confusion come from

>trying to develop a unified theory to accomodate

>Sruthi , Smruthi , IthihAsAs , BHaagaavtha PurANAs and

>Sthala PurANAs .

 

This is one of the most insightful statements I

have seen in a long time, and it struck a chord

in me. We struggle many times to create a watertight

system to accomodate all the various mystic anubhavams

of various writers and saints, even when they are

not strictly writing philosophically. When we

try to put such rapturous accounts into the

straightjacket of intellectual consistency, we

are both missing the point and doomed to failure.

I am often the first person to fall victim to

this tendency.

 

Your timely advice reminded me of a beautiful post by

P.B. Anand some years back. Everyone's anubhavam is

different, and leads them to follow differing paths.

He wrote:

> There are different milestones or signposts if you like, for use by

> those at different stages in our discovery of this unfathomable beauty

> of lord. When I as a pedestrian see that you in your car are focusing

> on some kind of signposts, shall I discord my own signposts and start

> following yours because apparently you are in a stage which seems to

> me to be better than mine? As long as I stick to the path suggested to

> me by my acharya and use the signposts he has given me, I should not

> have such self-doubts. Eventually I will reach a stage where I may

> have to use some other signposts and I am sure my acharya will give me

> those at that time.

 

adiyEn

Mani