"KEzhvAnam.."

[Guest guest]

Thanks to Sri Bharat for the comments from Sri HH Rangapriya Swami on Sri

Ramanujacharya's instruction on tirumantrartham. This note makes it clear

that emberumanar did not disobey the rules and regulations in the smritis.

 

Further, I have one other doubt regarding the concept of Radha Krishna. In

Bhagavatam the name "radha" does not come except in a related "anaya

aradhithah" sentence which refers to a special gopika who was very dear to

Lord Krishna. I did hear that Padmapurana has deep references to "radha"

and even the concept of radha as verily the personification of bhakti.

bhakti of the highest order is in fact termed "radha bhava" it seems. I

dont have copy of that purana. Can Sri Bharat ask this question to

stalwarts and acharyas back home :

 

sorry for taking this liberty, people 1000s of miles away from acharyas

have to resort to bhagavatas like bharat for authentic information

otherwise they will have to wait for information for a very long time.

 

1) In chaitanya sampradaya Radha Krishna is taken to be sort of identical

to SRI & NARAYANA . Radha is taken as hladini shakti of Krishna. What is

the visistadvaitic position on Radha. Is she a particular form of lakshmi

- sri, bhu or Nila? or someone other than the three?

 

2) chaitanya sampradaya people do not like to equate radha to lakshmi. In

fact they believe that there are thousands of lakshmis and Radha is sort of

the queen of all of them.

 

3) In chaitanya charitamrita - there are references to Krishna as being the

highest and even Narayana (garbodakashayi), VIshnu, as being lower. they

quote a work called "brahmasamhita" which is not really a part of

pancharatra according to some Hare Krishna system experts such as "Gora

Keshava Das" of Hawaii. In fact according to him, bramhasamhita is a work

honored only by the chaitanya sampradaya folks. I am almost sure that

there is no support for this view in any of the vedic, upanisadic ,

pancharatra or puranic sources. I would like the views of our acharyas

back home on this subject.

 

4) modern chaitanya sampradaya folks believe in "principle of back to

godhead" ie. that jivas were once with Krishna and by misusing their

freedom they fell down from vaikunta/goloka and by bhakti they will have to

get back to their original position. This view as far as I know is not

supported by any vedantic system. As per our system, jivas are bound from

BEGINNING LESS time. this is the same view as that of madhva, shankara

systems. The only difference in advaita is that jiva is a conventional

reality and not paramarthika which is irrelevant to the concept of

eternality of soul's bondage. I would like a confirmation on this view

from acharyas backhome.

 

thanks for all these and sorry for the trouble.

 

adiyen Krishna Kalale

[Guest guest]

--

Dear devotees,

Hare krishna. Let me introduce myself first to all the devotees in this bhakti

email group. I am Ramgopal freind of V. Srimahavishnu in IIT Kanpur I am doing

my masters degree in Chemical engineering

here. I am very much associated with ISKCON and its teachings to the world.

Without the mercy of Vaisnavas and pure devotee, no time exists in the creation

of Lord and hence I pay my obesiances to all the devotees in this group. Let me

offer my obesiances to all the devotees. The devotees heart is the heart where

the consciousness lead by the paramatma feature of the lord is revealing the

inner and inner philosophical points of bhakti. Hence, I pay my obesiances to

all the great devotees involved in this massive mission of spreading the holy

name of the Lord.

 

Yours most humble servant

ramgopal,iitk

hare krishna

 

hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare

hare mrama hare rama rama rama hare hare

On Wed, 23 Dec 1998 09:36:11 A. Bharat wrote:

>SrI RAma is camping on the seashore before proceeding

>to Lanka and suddenly VibhIshaNa appears in the sky

>with four rAkshasas requesting admission.SugrIva as

>the commander of SrI RAma's army while reporting this

>incident to the Lord,makes a fervent plea to finish

>him off as an undesirable intruder.SrI RAma then asks

>the others also to advise him as they are all extremely

>capable intelligent wellwishers (suhrdA..budhimatA satA

>samarthEna..).While replying they tell him,"There is

>nothing in the three worlds that is unknown to you; but

>while being fully aware, you are asking us to advice you,

>calling us your friends,

> <AtmAnam mAnayan> "

>You are intending to give us credit for advising you.You

>are thereby establishing that you treat us as your friends.

>While giving us credit you are also getting credit from

>the world for your <saulabhya> and <sauSIlya> that the

>greatest person in the universe is equating Himself with

>an ordinary mortal.

>

>Why does the Lord do it ? Because He wants to be one of

>us.He wants to make us equate ourselves with him and

>treat him like a familiar.Like a grandfather seriously

>asking his grandchild to advise him.It also serves another

>basic purpose.He is the SEshI (Lord) and we are His

>SEshabhUtas(servants).A servant's Being itself is

>dependent on his service <nAkinchit-kurvatah

> SEshatvam> . What service can we do to a

>Lord who is Supreme and has everything (avApta-samasta-

>kAma)? So in our own interest He creates artificial

>opportunities for us to serve Him.He sits there helplessly

>in the archA form waiting for us to bathe and clothe and

>protect Him.

>

>So too in today's pASuram "keezhvAnam",said Sri BhoovarAhA-

>chAriAr in his discourse on TiruppAvai,there is a girl who

>is a special favorite of KrishNa .She has apparently not

>got up and the others come to wake her.They say,"We know

>that you are more partial to the BhAgavatas than to the

>Lord Himself; and in fact that is the reason He gives you

>a special place in His heart.And today you're demonstrating

>your liking for us by waiting to be awakened by us.That

>would give us the credit(taram) in the eyes of the world.

>And you are doing it deliberately for the good of our Being

>(nAngaL sattai peruvadarkAga),just as the Lord does it with

>His devotees,and RAma did it with His army leaders on the

>seashore."

>

>It is the vAtsalyam of the PirATTI and the Lord which gives

>sustenance to our being.

>

>EmberumAnAr TiruvaDigaLE SaraNam!

>

>adiyen

>Bharat

>

>

 

 

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[Guest guest]

SrI RAma is camping on the seashore before proceeding

to Lanka and suddenly VibhIshaNa appears in the sky

with four rAkshasas requesting admission.SugrIva as

the commander of SrI RAma's army while reporting this

incident to the Lord,makes a fervent plea to finish

him off as an undesirable intruder.SrI RAma then asks

the others also to advise him as they are all extremely

capable intelligent wellwishers (suhrdA..budhimatA satA

samarthEna..).While replying they tell him,"There is

nothing in the three worlds that is unknown to you; but

while being fully aware, you are asking us to advice you,

calling us your friends,

<AtmAnam mAnayan> "

You are intending to give us credit for advising you.You

are thereby establishing that you treat us as your friends.

While giving us credit you are also getting credit from

the world for your <saulabhya> and <sauSIlya> that the

greatest person in the universe is equating Himself with

an ordinary mortal.

 

Why does the Lord do it ? Because He wants to be one of

us.He wants to make us equate ourselves with him and

treat him like a familiar.Like a grandfather seriously

asking his grandchild to advise him.It also serves another

basic purpose.He is the SEshI (Lord) and we are His

SEshabhUtas(servants).A servant's Being itself is

dependent on his service <nAkinchit-kurvatah

SEshatvam> . What service can we do to a

Lord who is Supreme and has everything (avApta-samasta-

kAma)? So in our own interest He creates artificial

opportunities for us to serve Him.He sits there helplessly

in the archA form waiting for us to bathe and clothe and

protect Him.

 

So too in today's pASuram "keezhvAnam",said Sri BhoovarAhA-

chAriAr in his discourse on TiruppAvai,there is a girl who

is a special favorite of KrishNa .She has apparently not

got up and the others come to wake her.They say,"We know

that you are more partial to the BhAgavatas than to the

Lord Himself; and in fact that is the reason He gives you

a special place in His heart.And today you're demonstrating

your liking for us by waiting to be awakened by us.That

would give us the credit(taram) in the eyes of the world.

And you are doing it deliberately for the good of our Being

(nAngaL sattai peruvadarkAga),just as the Lord does it with

His devotees,and RAma did it with His army leaders on the

seashore."

 

It is the vAtsalyam of the PirATTI and the Lord which gives

sustenance to our being.

 

EmberumAnAr TiruvaDigaLE SaraNam!

 

adiyen

Bharat

[Guest guest]

>2) chaitanya sampradaya people do not like to equate radha to lakshmi. In

>fact they believe that there are thousands of lakshmis and Radha is sort of

>the queen of all of them.

 

In Chaitanya sampradaaya, all Lakshmi-tattva are considered to be expansions

of Radha. They are the same hlaadini-shakti or pleasure potency, but just as

Krishna is considered to be the svayam bhagavaan from whom all other

Vishnu-tattva are expanded, so also Raadhaa is considered the original

hlaadini-shakti from whom all other Lakshmii-tattva are expanded. Or anyway

that is my understanding.

>3) In chaitanya charitamrita - there are references to Krishna as being the

>highest and even Narayana (garbodakashayi), VIshnu, as being lower.

 

Vishnu-tattva is not "lower" than Krishna. They are the same Supreme

Personality of Godhead. But it is true that Gaudiiya Vaishnavas regard

Krishna as svayam bhagavaan. This is based on numerous shaastric references,

some of which are given below:

 

they

>quote a work called "brahmasamhita" which is not really a part of

>pancharatra according to some Hare Krishna system experts such as "Gora

>Keshava Das" of Hawaii. In fact according to him, bramhasamhita is a work

>honored only by the chaitanya sampradaya folks. I am almost sure that

>there is no support for this view in any of the vedic, upanisadic ,

>pancharatra or puranic sources.

 

There are some references in the Bhaagavatam from which the idea of Krishna

as svayam bhagavaan is based.

 

ete chaa.mshakalaaH pu.msaH kR^iShNastu bhagavaan svayam |

indraarivyaakula.m loka.m mR^iDayanti yuge yuge || bhaa 1.3.28 ||

 

All of the above-mentioned incarnations are either plenary portions or

portions of the plenary portions of the Lord, but Lord Shrii Krishna is the

original Personality of Godhead. All of them appear on planets whenever

there is a disturbance created by the atheists. The Lord incarnates to

protect the theists (bhaagavata puraaNa 1.3.28).

 

eSha vai bhagavaan saakShaadaadyo naaraayaNaH pumaan |

mohayanmaayayaa loka.m guuDhashcharati vR^iShNiShu || bhaa 1.9.18 ||

 

This Shrii Krishna is no other than the inconceivable, original Personality

of Godhead. He is the first Naaraayana, the supreme enjoyer. But He is

moving amongst the descendants of King Vrishni just like one of us, and He

is bewildering us with His self-created energy (bhaagavata puraaNa 1.9.18).

 

These are understood to mean that all other forms of Krishna, avataaras, etc

are expanded from Krishna. But it is not saying that some Vishnu-tattva are

"higher" and others are "lower." Such thinking is considered offensive in

the Gaudiiya Vaishnava sampradaaya.

 

As far as references from Brahma-samhitaa are concerned, I understand that

the Brahma-samhitaa is highly regarded because it summarizes some of the

points mentioned in the Bhaagavatam. Actually, what is today called as

Brahma-samhitaa by the Gaudiiya Vaishnavas is only the 5th chapter of that

work, the rest of which is no longer extant.

>4) modern chaitanya sampradaya folks believe in "principle of back to

>godhead" ie. that jivas were once with Krishna and by misusing their

>freedom they fell down from vaikunta/goloka and by bhakti they will have to

>get back to their original position. This view as far as I know is not

>supported by any vedantic system. As per our system, jivas are bound from

>BEGINNING LESS time. this is the same view as that of madhva, shankara

>systems.

 

Although some ISKCON devotees take the position of the jiivas having fallen

from Vaikuntha, this is not necessarily the orthodox Gaudiiya Vaishnava

position. In fact, Gaudiiya Math sannyaasis predictably take the no-fall

position. Actually this issue is controversial and is far from settled. But

my understanding is that Baladeva Vidyabhuushana and Vishvanaatha

Chakravarti take the no-fall position in their Bhagavad-Giitaa bhaashyas,

and they state that the jiiva's bondage is beginningless.

 

 

adiyen Krishna Susarla