Iyer/Iyengar

[Guest guest]

Sri:

 

Dearest Sisters and Brothers,

Sri Venkatesh Ilayavaali wrote:

>The question then is: How old is this tradition of Samashrayanam,?

>we can conclude that Sri Nammalvar initiated Sri Madurakavi Azhvar

>and Sriman Nathamuni.

>

 

I would like to bring to your enjoyment the VinshNu chittthar's-

PeriyAzhwAr's PallaaNdu "TheeyiR poliginRa se~nchudar Azhi thigazh

thiruch chakkaratthin kOil poRiyaalE oRRuNdu ninRu kudikudi

ATcheyginROm....."

 

The thaapa samsakaram is referred here. Isn't it?

 

(And ThirumangaiAzhwAr's Manthra samsakaram was from Sriya: Pathi Himself.

ThiruppANAzhwAr all samsakarams are in the Azhagiya MaNavaaLar sannidhi

itself. Thirumazhisai vandha jyOthi must have been initiated by PEyAzhwAr.

ANdAL- by PeriyAZhwAr? NammAzhwAr by Sri VishvaksEnar.- Please correct me )

 

Regards

 

Narayana Narayana

 

Narayna dAsan Madhavakkannan

 

 

____

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[Guest guest]

>From reading Sri Anand KaraLapAkkam's write up on Samashrayanam,

( http:/www.srivaishnava.org/customs/samash.htm )

 

"IyengAr" means 'Iyndu angam Udayavar'or'Iyndu kAryangaL

Udayavar'. These five refers to the 'Pancha SamskAram'. It also

means the fiva angAs of prapatti. We can in general say that this

PanchaSamskAram gives one the name "IyengAr".

 

So an Iyer/smartha by birth can become an Iyengar via this process

(which is what all our acharyas went through).

 

The question then is: How old is this tradition of Samashrayanam,?

 

we can conclude that Sri Nammalvar initiated Sri Madurakavi Azhvar

and Sriman Nathamuni. But who might have initiated other Azhvars?

 

Is Samashrayanam part of the Pancharatra system? if so, can we conclude

 

that Sri Vaishnavam (which is based on Pancharatra system) is as old.

 

Sorry if I digressed too much.

 

Adiyen

 

 

 

--

 

Venkatesh K. Elayavalli Cypress Semiconductor

Data Communications Division 3901 N. First St. MS 4

Phone: (408) 456 1858 San Jose CA 95134

Fax: (408) 943 2949

 

http://www.srivaishnava.org

[Guest guest]

> The question then is: How old is this tradition of Samashrayanam,?

 

There are references in the Alvar paasurams to wearing the marks

of Vishnu on one's body. The most obvious is from Periyalvar's

Tiruppallaandu:

 

tIyil poliginRa cen cuDarAzhi, tigazh tiruccakkarattin

kOyil poRiyAlE oRRuNDu ninRu ...

 

This verse refers to wearing the heated mark of the Sudarsana

Cakra on one's body.

 

Similarly, in the last decad of Periyalvar's Tirumozhi, he says:

 

ennaiyum en udaimaiyaiyum un cakkarap poRi oRRikkoNDu

 

which refers to himself as well as all his belongings as being

marked with the holy Sudarsana.

 

The practice of samASrayaNam can thus at least be dated to

before the Alvars. Since Periyalvar speaks of this rite with

so much confidence, it must have been well-established within

the Vaidika Bhagavata community of his time (second half of

first millenium). The Pancaratra tradition is much older

than this; references to it are found in the Mahabharata.

So we can conclude that samASrayaNam in some form or another

is an ancient rite.

 

The Madhva tradition also has a ritual of wearing heated

marks of Vishnu on one's body. However, they wear more than

just the sankha and cakra and periodically renew these marks,

adding more as time goes on.

 

[ I have also heard that some sections of the smArta community

used to have a similar ritual in the past but that today this

ritual has fallen into disuse. This needs to be verified. ]

 

Mani

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhaktas,

Can it be that anyone irrespective of the caste that he is born into,

after initiation and the Pancha Samskaram from a Guru of our Paramara

becomes technically a Iyengar?

Does Caste play any or important role in Bhakthi?

If it doesnt, is it justified to use 'IyengAr' as a title or as a term to

differentiate between bhaktas born in SriVaishnava families from others?

In what sense can 'IyengAr' be used and in what context/situation?

 

 

Adiyen,

Jagan Mohan, Ramanujadasan.

 

 

bhakti-errors [bhakti-errors]On

Behalf Of Venkatesh K. Elayavalli

Wednesday, May 05, 1999 11:06 PM

bhakti

Iyer/Iyengar

 

"IyengAr" means 'Iyndu angam Udayavar'or'Iyndu kAryangaL

Udayavar'. These five refers to the 'Pancha SamskAram'. It also

means the fiva angAs of prapatti. We can in general say that this

PanchaSamskAram gives one the name "IyengAr".

[Guest guest]

Srimathy wrote:

> how were our ancestors before the 16th century called?

 

As Sri Bharat pointed out, the term 'Iyengar' predates

the 16th century in the name Pillai Perumaal Iyengar.

However, it may not have been commonly and uniformly

applied to Sri Vaishnavas.

 

One of the older terms for a follower of Ramanuja is

"Sri Vaishnava", which first finds mention in Ramanuja's

cousin Pillaan's commentary on the Tiruvaymoli. An older

word, not applied only to Sri Vaishnavas these

days, is "bhAgavata", indicating a follower of the

Pancaratra tradition. In the philosophical literature,

our tradition is known as Visishtadvaita (after the 13th

century) or the rAmAnujIya siddhAnta.

 

You ask an unrelated question:

> Who are suyamacharyas?

 

The term is "svayam AchArya purusha". "AchArya purusha"

is a learned, tradition person who administers the rite

of panca-samskAra (samASrayaNam) to others. "svayam"

means "oneself". So, the term "svayam AchArya purusha"

means "having an acharya from one's own".

 

svayam-AchArya-purusha is term used for people who do

not follow a maTham (Parakala, Ahobila, Vaanamaamalai,

Andavan, etc.) and who also do not have an acharya

outside their family (mudaliyaandaan, kOyil kandAdai, etc.)

 

This term is used for Sri Vaishnavas who are descendants

of the original 74 disciples of Ramanuja, and who continue

to have association with learned members of their extended

family who administer the panca-samskAra (samASrayaNam)

and minister to their needs. Many of our most learned

acharyas came from "svayam-AchArya" families -- Desika,

Pillai Lokacharya, etc. This is because the concept of

a maTha and therefore a sampradAya based on the maTha

dates from the 14th century, much after Sri Ramanuja's

time.

 

Some notable svayam-AchArya families are Prativaadi Bhayankaram,

Tatacharya, Tirumalai Anandaanpillai, Nallaan Chakravarti, etc.

There are many scholars among these families even today,

as they have a strong sense of connection to the tradition

and maintain a certain level of scholarship.

 

Not all descendants of the 74 original disciples are still

considered "svayam AchArya". At some point, some of the

descendants drifted away from their traditional acharya or

did not have a strong scholar in their family, and consequently

became associated with some maTham or other swami. So there

will be Sri Vaishnavas who bear the appellation "Kidambi",

"Vangipuram", "Tatacharya", etc., who at one point belonged

to svayam AchArya purusha families, but who now follow

some other swami.

 

It should be pointed out that some people object to the

term "svayam AchArya purusha" (not the concept behind it)

with the feeling that only one person is truly a "svayam

AchArya", an acharya for himself -- the Lord.

 

Mani

[Guest guest]

SrI:

SrImatE SrI Lakshminrusimha ParabrahmaNE namaha

SrI Lakshminrusimha divya pAdukA sEvaka SrIvaNN-

SatakOpa SrI nArAyaNa yateendra mahAdESikAya namaha

 

Dear SrI Jagan,

namO nArAyaNA.

>

> "IyengAr" means 'Iyndu angam Udayavar'or'Iyndu kAryangaL

> Udayavar'. These five refers to the 'Pancha SamskAram'. It also

> means the fiva angAs of prapatti. We can in general say that this

> PanchaSamskAram gives one the name "IyengAr".

> Can it be that anyone irrespective of the caste that he is born into,

> after initiation and the Pancha Samskaram from a Guru of our Parampara

> becomes technically a Iyengar?

 

Technically Yes. When "IyengAr" is interpreted to refer to this pancha

samskAram, any SriVaishnava is an IyengAr.

> Does Caste play any or important role in Bhakthi?

 

Obviously not. A bhAgavathA ie.SrivaishnavA may belong to any caste.

Its a great sin (bhAgavatha apachAram) to estimate one's level of

devotion based on his/her caste.

> If it doesnt, is it justified to use 'IyengAr' as a title or as a term to

> differentiate between bhaktas born in SriVaishnava families from others?

 

Technically Yes.

> In what sense can 'IyengAr' be used and in what context/situation?

>

But, the problem is that, in social custom, the term "IyengAr" got

identified with only the Srivaishnava brAhmanAs. So, people may

misunderstand you if you use the term "IyengAr" to denote any

SrIvaishnavA.

 

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

ananthapadmanAbha dAsan

krishNArpaNam