pursuit of wealth

[Guest guest]

Sriramajayam.

 

Blessed Bhagavathas,

Although am not a learned bhakta, I would like to express some of my own

thoughts.

I have been given to understand that Artha, Kama and Dharma are the

legitimate immediate goals of a householder's life (although Moksha is the

ultimate).

Thus, Artha or acquiring of wealth is one part of Household life. - Please

comment.

 

-----Worry of Money-----

 

SriLakshmi, who is always besides Narayana will always be there where his

glories are being sung. Prapatti also means surrendering of the worries of

both material and spiritual nature to Sriman.

How can Lakshmi abandon those who are the dearest to her pathi?

therefore worries about money by itself is a great sin or violation of the

spirit of surrendering.

When you worry about the well-being of your family, your future, you are

depriving yourself of God's grace towards his baktha. When you give up all

worries to God, He will take care of them. So why worry??

 

Work as you had always. Spend as much as you can on Vaishnava works.

and surrender your worries of finance to Sriman.

 

I am personally a poor student and I have a lot of requirements that I

cannot fulfil from the money that my parents provide (for e.g. the internet

access). Without exaggeration, I would like to express that whenever I

require money, It comes to me in form of somebody needing help for which

they are too pleased to give me some money. I have never or will never worry

for money! This is a wish and a prayer I make to God that I should never

ever feel the need for running after money that I never need.

 

Jagan Mohan- Ramanujadasan.

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhagavatas

 

My thoughts on the subject raised by Sriman Mani.

 

This is quote from Thirukurral, a popular work which goes as follows

 

Oorni neer nerith atrae

oolagavam periarivalan thiru

 

(pardon me for this curde write-up) the essence which means the wealth

possessed by a noble man is equated to a pond which is filled water. Such a

pond attracts lot of birds and animals and quences the thirst of many a

living beings. Similarly the noble man utilizes his wealth for the benefit

of the society.

 

In my humble view, one should not be greedy to amass wealth. If one can

still earn some money through his own work without breaking any ethos it is

welcome. In the end of the day, we need money for everything, and i feel we

should not look into this as material pursuit.

 

In this regard I whole heartedly welcome Sriman Madhavakannan's suggestion

is earmarking a percentage for such kainkariams.

 

dasan

madhavan

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhaghavatas:

 

In response to Mani's thought-provoking question,

Adiyen's simple (perhaps a non-scholarly) view

is as follows:

> Mani Varadarajan wrote:

>Dear Bhaktas,

>A question has been on my mind lately:

>to what degree is the pursuit of wealth

>compatible with the principles of our

>religion?

 

I would include in the definition of 'pursuit of wealth'

health and happiness/joy arising out of felicities

that we generally enjoy in life.

 

If the greatest achievement of our Ramanujacharya was to

reconcile different aspects of wisdom contained in the vEdAs

- then we cannot ignore the fact that vedic mantrAs constantly

pray for health, wealth and prosperity (For eg. Sri-Suktam).

Moreover, all samskArAs pray for material prosperity.

Thus pursuit of wealth per-se is fully compatible with our

religion. Vyasa says in the Maha Bharatha:

 

"Do not pursue Artha and kAmA to the detriment of DharmA

Do not purdue Dharma to the detriment of ArthA and kAmA"

 

In my opinion one should earn enough to lead a comfortable life

and this is amply supported by our religion. In fact one should

strive to become wealthy and direct the surplus wealth to promote

culture and religion. The question is: how is this compatible with

spirituality.

 

Mani wrote:

>We are repeatedly taught that materialism

>leads only to misery and nothing higher.

>Our ideals are people such Nammalvar, Desika,

>and other early acharyas, who completely eschewed

>building their personal fortunes in favor of

>spiritual pursuits. There are many other

>real-world examples, even outside our sampradAya,

>such as Sankaracharya.

 

There is a saying in the Maha Bharata that : An Individual

makes a sacrifice for the sake of his/her family, a family for the

sake of community, a community for the sake of society, a society

for the sake of nation and the nation for the humanity (or the world).

However, for the sake of AtmA you must sacrifice the entire world.

 

These two views (that of pursuing wealth and sacrificing

wealth) indeed present a conflict. This is somewhat

reconciled by the Hindu idea of 'stages in life' - Brahmacharya etc.

We must do what is appropriate for our "Ashramam".

Only in very rare cases can we expect a boy of 10 years

to be a paramikantin.

>Here's the bottom line question: is a detached, unmaterialistic

>life religiously necessary? Is it possible? If so, how does one

>go about it? To what extent should one pursue wealth, if one

>is truly desirous of liberation?

 

Ultimately "ParamAtmani yO rakthaha virakti aparamAtmani"

"Attachement to the One who has no attachment frees you

from all other attachments"

In the final stage we must have the VairAgyam to give up

everything - and be ready to take Unchavrutti if necessary.

It will not come all of a sudden. With regard to everything

we possess, we must develop the so-called "rental car" attitude -

unaffected by its loss. Like the people of North India say -

"nangE aayE hain - nangE jAnA hai". Philosophic wisdom of Jnana and

VairAgyA is the ultimate and final goal of life.

 

 

Vijayaraghavan

Buffalo, NY

[Guest guest]

[ I have just added a small summary. ]

 

Thus to summarize:

 

We should do what is appropriate for our Ashramam in life,

including the pursuit of wealth, and at the sametime

keeping in mind the final goal

 

 

Vijayaraghavan

Buffalo, NY

[Guest guest]

Namaskaram to Bhagavathas.

 

One of the chapters of Swamy Nigamantha Maha Desikan's Rahastraya

Sara deals with the aspect of material longings of a

prapanna . I am open to corrections here, it is the AparAdhAdhikAram. Swamy

Desikan mentions here that prapatti can be performed for preventing a

prapanna from getting indulged in any activity that could result in either a

puNya or a pApam. I feel this should also be an important part of our six

fold prapatti to Sriyapathi NArAyaNan. I also feel that one should

constantly perform prapatti for His grace to help himself not get indulged

in more prAkritik (material) fruits.

 

I would appreciate the knowledgable BhAgavathAs to add to what Swamy

Desikan says in this context.

 

This is my personal (may or may not be objective) thought to our

running behind money. The principle of making good enough money for the

family, children, home etc. has been over-emphasized. I strongly feel, we

should draw a line somewhere. We should lay a lot more emphasis on shAstric

education rather than non-shastric learnings. We should earn just enough for

our food, clothing and health. Basic education for children is important but

can be done at home. I have seen many homes, in Bangalore, that have kids

totally dedicated to the shAstrAs. They are also taught enough to earn money

for a living. I feel this is a very important way of reviving and retaining

our SampradAya and we are all accountable for our sampradAya.

 

SrimathE VEdAntha RAmAnuja mahA DEsikAya nama:

Adiyen,

Keshavan Kadambi.

[Guest guest]

I thank all of you who have contributed your thoughts

to my question. In particular, I found Murali's approach to

see this as part of the gradual process of karma-yoga

extremely enlightening.

 

I also appreciate other respondents' statements about

how accumulating wealth through righteous means fits into

the ashrama-dharma. But I think my question is more of

a psychological one. If I am daily thinking about the

value of my investment portfolio, how to join the next

start-up company, or how to pay for the diamond necklace

I need to buy my wife in a few years, can I truly make

spiritual progress? Does this not precisely force one

into the cycle of samsAra, trying to build more and

more wealth?

 

Sure, we may contribute 5 or 10 per cent to our religious

cause of choice. Is this way of "paying off" our guilt

the right rationalization? Is this really living within

our means?

 

In other words, to what extent should we try to build

wealth to live comfortably, and how should we define

comfortable, without falling into the trap of chasing

wealth?

 

My gut feeling is that the example of Sri Desika and other

gRhastha-s is not an ideal that is to be left merely for saints,

but something to which all true mumukshus should sincerely

aspire. Is this still practical? Could Desika have survived

today? (What few disciples he had certainly couldn't have

given him enough money to pay the rents in San Francisco!)

 

Mani

[Guest guest]

Namo Narayana!

 

In the responses of pursuit of wealth we saw that most bhaktas

feel that they can go ahead in pursuit of wealth, till they get the

maturity to give it up. Bhaktas here are of different age groups,

starting from 20's to 70's. If no body has the maturity, it shows

that no body is going have the maturity unless we put in efforts for it.

 

Swami Desika's Vairagya panchakam itself is enough for us to

know that we should not go after pursuit of wealth. It is very

rare to see people who want to earn just for the sake of doing

kaimkaryam. Even if they want to do kaimkaryam, there

are so many other ways out. Doing kaimkaryam is just a reason

for going after pursuit of wealth. If kaimkarya by wealth is so

important Swami Desika, would not have regarded wealth so

insignificantly, Alavandar would not have forgotten his so called

luxuries on seeing our Lord's feet, ... we have so many incidents

showing that we should not go in pursuit of wealth. Our pursuit

can be only towards the greatest wealth - our lord.

 

Swami Desika says, he who is devoted to the Supreme Lord has a

strong dislike to the objects other than the supreme Lord.

 

If we have complete belief in our Lord that HE had been taking

care of us and will continue to take care of us where is the need

for us to think or worry about future.

>If I am daily thinking about the

> value of my investment portfolio, how to join the next

> start-up company, or how to pay for the diamond necklace

> I need to buy my wife in a few years, can I truly make

> spiritual progress? Does this not precisely force one

> into the cycle of samsAra, trying to build more and

> more wealth?

 

Do we really need to spend so much of time and effort

on pursuit of wealth? How much of money do we need?

 

Swami Desika himself gives us the reply in Vairagya

panchakam.

"silam kimanalam BhavEt ...."

 

"will not the scattered grain in the fields satisfy the fire

of stomach (hunger)? Is not a handful of limpid water

of a tank sufficient to support the self and body? Is not a

piece of dirty cloth obtained accidentally enough to be

used as a loin cloth? Still persons of wisdom, for the sake

of food unnecessarily resort to mortal kings! Alas! What

a tragedy!"

> My gut feeling is that the example of Sri Desika and other

> gRhastha-s is not an ideal that is to be left merely for saints,

> but something to which all true mumukshus should sincerely

> aspire. Is this still practical? Could Desika have survived

> today? (What few disciples he had certainly couldn't have

> given him enough money to pay the rents in San Francisco!)

 

Swami Desika would certainly survive and be a role model for

all of us. We see so many of our Acharyas who are very simple.

If we have the will we can spend our life by serving them, learning

our sampradayam...Children can always join the mutt schools and

learn Vedas etc (the real knowledge). We do have so many live

examples even today.

 

We should take all measures and spend as much time as possible in

bhagavad/ BAgavadAnubavam and limit our wants which in turn

will limit our need to pursue wealth. We should try and practice simple

living and high thinking as our Poorvacharyas have done.

 

Sita Rama Jayam

Praveena nAmni Ramanuja dasi

[Guest guest]

SrI:

SrI Lakshminrusimha ParabrahmaNE namaha

SrI Lakshminrusimha divya pAdukA sEvaka SrIvaN-

SatakOpa SrI nArAyaNa yateendra mahAdESikAya namaha

 

Dear SrI Mani,

namO nArAyaNA.

> I thank all of you who have contributed your thoughts

> to my question. In particular, I found Murali's approach to

> see this as part of the gradual process of karma-yoga

> extremely enlightening.

 

adiyEn feels that you are talking about the "karma-yoga",

in the sense of performing it as a prapanna (ie. not with

the aim for moksham / attaining bhakti yOgam).

> In other words, to what extent should we try to build

> wealth to live comfortably, and how should we define

> comfortable, without falling into the trap of chasing

> wealth?

 

This depends more on one's own perception. The best

thing would be seek the guidance of one's own AchArya.

Do as per AchArya's instruction. That way, whatever you

do will be AchArya kainkaryam / implementation of

AchArya Aj~nA. AchArya also will give the instruction,

depending upon the nature of the sishya.

> My gut feeling is that the example of Sri Desika and other

> gRhastha-s is not an ideal that is to be left merely for saints,

> but something to which all true mumukshus should sincerely

> aspire.

 

Certainly ; No doubt in this.

 

> Is this still practical? Could Desika have survived

> today? (What few disciples he had certainly couldn't have

> given him enough money to pay the rents in San Francisco!)

 

It is irrelevant to talk about avatAra purushAs like SwAmi

dESikan in this context. avatAra purushAs does not appear

and suffer for their survival ; they appear for making others

survive and attain moksham. SrIman nArAyaNA will make all

the arrangements His great devotees and avatAra purushAs.

Whenever ( be it in the past, present or future) and wherever

( let them be at a city like madras or bombay or at some village)

avatAra purushAs appear, there is no need for them to go after

wealth etc ; All the neccessary arrangements will automatically

take place for them - be it through disciples, friends etc etc,

including personal direct acts of help by the Divya Dampatis

themselves.

 

It is wise to pose the question this way : " Is this still practical

for the baddha jIvAtmAs in this age of kali , who hardly have

any jn~Anam, vairAgyam, bhakti and anushtAnam ".

 

For some it may be practical ; for many it may not be, depending

upon various circumstances (family background etc). But,

whatever be the lowkIka activities one may perform , if one

makes sure that he/she is learning the sampradAya granthams

under a sadAchArya and builds the Atma guNAs (ie. SrI Vaishnava

qualities) and becomes a prapanna and serve AchArya,

bhAgavathAs and the Divya Dampati , this is a good way of leading

the life.

 

AzhwAr,yemperumAnAr,dESIkan,Azhagiyasingar thiruvadigaLE SaraNam

 

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

ananthapadmanAbha dAsan

krishNArpaNam

[Guest guest]

I had written:

> Is this still practical? Could Desika have survived

> today? (What few disciples he had certainly couldn't have

> given him enough money to pay the rents in San Francisco!)

 

To which Anand replies:

> It is irrelevant to talk about avatAra purushAs like SwAmi

> dESikan in this context. avatAra purushAs does not appear

> and suffer for their survival ...

 

Sigh. We can never have a reasonable discussion if we

get sidetracked by these theological issues.

 

To Venkat and Anand: I do not contest your right to believe

that Desika, Ramanuja, and others are anointed nitya-sUris.

I, on the other hand, believe that they were human beings

who rose above samsAra through the power of the Lord's grace.

Please permit me the right to believe this in trying to

understand how they lived their lives.

 

If discussions based on the latter are not interesting to

you, please be patient and ignore them.

 

Mani

[Guest guest]

SrI:

SrI Lakshminrusimha ParabrahmaNE namaha

SrI Lakshminrusimha divya pAdukA sEvaka SrIvaN-

SatakOpa SrI nArAyaNa yateendra mahAdESikAya namha

 

Dear SrI Mani,

namO nArAyaNA.

 

 

Sri Mani Varadarajan wrote:

> I had written:

> > Is this still practical? Could Desika have survived

> > today? (What few disciples he had certainly couldn't have

> > given him enough money to pay the rents in San Francisco!)

>

> To which Anand replies:

> > It is irrelevant to talk about avatAra purushAs like SwAmi

> > dESikan in this context. avatAra purushAs does not appear

> > and suffer for their survival ...

>

> Sigh. We can never have a reasonable discussion if we

> get sidetracked by these theological issues.

 

adiyEn would like to clarify here. Probably you mistook the point.

adiyEn feels that we will certainly have a reasonable discussion

and whatever adiyEn wrote is not sidetracking.

 

adiyEn's point was only on the applicability of the question

for an avatAra purusha. adiyEn is not against your good

discussion point. The path shown by SwAmi dESikan

can very much be followed and for adiyEn, the question is like

" Can one with such determination, vairAgyam etc as that exhibited

by swAmi dESIkan live peacefully now ". This issue has been well

discussed by many devotees and they have posted excellent articles.

 

> To Venkat and Anand: I do not contest your right to believe

> that Desika, Ramanuja, and others are anointed nitya-sUris.

> I, on the other hand, believe that they were human beings

> who rose above samsAra through the power of the Lord's grace.

> Please permit me the right to believe this in trying to

> understand how they lived their lives.

>

> If discussions based on the latter are not interesting to

> you, please be patient and ignore them.

 

We are not forcing others to accept the views posted here, which

are in accordance with the current day AchAryAs views as well.

We never mentioned that the discussions are not interesting. But,

one should also be ready to read the views of others, esp. when

it is that of current day AchAryas , instead of asking them to

keep quiet and ignore the discussion. We hope that whatever

we posted was within the spirit of the discussion.

 

Hope that this clarifies the intention of such postings and resolves

any misunderstanding.

 

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

ananthapadmanAbha dAsan

krishNArpaNam

[Guest guest]

Anand wrote:

> adiyEn's point was only on the applicability of the question

> for an avatAra purusha. [...] The path shown by SwAmi dESikan

> can very much be followed [...]

 

And what if I do not think that Swami Sri Desika was

an avatAra purusha in a literal sense?

 

To me, if we elevate all our great examples to avatAra-hood,

this increases the distance between them and myself. Desika

is then capable of anything, because he was in no way like

myself. He did not really face the obstacles that I did,

because he can overcome any problem. Why would I have any

hope of doing similar? Why would I care to even think I can

follow his example?

 

To me, and I only speak for myself, our acharyas' lives are

far more meaningful if I consider them exceptional human

beings, who, while being susceptible to the same foibles as

you and I, for some reason managed to rise above it.

 

[ This is not a new opinion, by the way. Please read

PeriyaVaaccaan Pillai's introductory portion of his

Tiruviruttam commentary, or the Mahapravesam of

Nampillai's Eedu. ]

> ... instead of asking them to keep quiet ...

 

Please! No one has been asked to keep quiet.

However, as I have written too much for today, I shall keep quiet

for some time.

 

Mani

[Guest guest]

Mani Varadarajan wrote:

>

>

> In other words, to what extent should we try to build

> wealth to live comfortably, and how should we define

> comfortable, without falling into the trap of chasing

> wealth?

>

 

 

 

My compliments, both to Mani, who has raised such

a thought-provoking question, and to all those of

you who have responded, so far, with such

insightful answers.

 

Inspired by all these postings, and trying to

understand the wisdom in the discourses of HH Sri

Tridandi Jeear Swamy on similar topics, I would

like to share my two cents worth:

 

The idea of pursuing wealth - or even giving it up

for that matter - really rests on the prinicipal

that it belongs to us in the first place. HH Sri

Jeear Swamy states that through a proper

understanding of vEdanta, one comes to realize

that samsAram is not due to the outside world at

all, but rather our response to it, i.e., the

ahankAram. It is this ahankAram, this false

identification of the soul with the body, that

throws one headlong into the ever increasing

vortex of self-interested pursuits.

 

Our bodies and our minds, products of our karmas

and guNas, delude us into believing that we are

one with them, and that our sole purpose is to

satisfy their insatiable material hungers. And it

is in feeding this hunger, that poor jiva, deluded

into identifying itself with the body, feels "this

wife, this home, this car, this bank account, this

job, this family, these friends, all is MINE, to

be enjoyed in any way I please, because I earned

it."

 

So the goal is not to try and escape the world,

but to try and escape this ahankAram. Once this

is done, nothing on a physical level really

changes, except our attitude. For what we see is

our svarupam, our True Nature. From this vantage

point, we realize that only "property" that is

really ours is our subservience to the One who is

the True Owner of Everything, Sriman Narayana.

And, all that once seemed to be ours is now His

gifts to us to pursue what is our True Happiness,

Serving Him. Our body is the instrument which we

use to serve Him, our spouse is a soulmate to

support and guide us in His service, our children

are our heirs who can carry on the tradition of

praising His Lotus Feet. And, money - it is only

needed as a means to support all of these and to

do good deeds in accordance with Dharma, once

again for His Service. So, no aspect of worldly

need be given up at all, nor should it really be

pursued. It should only be accepted as His

Kindness.

 

And how to develop this philosophical attitude? By

removing the ahankAram. Easier said than done, of

course. Trying to do so through self-effort runs

the risk of taking us on to another egotistical

tangent. And, trying to follow any of the yogas as

described by in Srimad Bhagavad Geetha has so many

qualifications.

 

Many of can probably remember Archimedes'

principle. The best way to dissipate a substance

is to displace it with another substance.

Similarly, the best way - indeed the only way - to

rid ourselves of ahankAram is to replace it with

Love for Him. Remembering His Compassion, His

Beauty, His Goodness, His Strength, His Desire to

Save Us, will nurture in us the natural feeling of

love that we all, in our True Nature, have for

Him. And, through this process, our focus on

ourselves and our over-inflated egos will be

forgotten.

 

In this way, material life becomes peaceful as it

is only used as a means to serve Him, and

spiritual life becomes fulfilled by realizing our

love and servitude towards Him.

 

I hope to learn more from this very interesting

discussion.

 

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan,

 

Mohan