Karma and transmigration

[Guest guest]

Narayana.

 

Dear Bhagavathas,

 

I was recently listening to a person talking about the greatness of

Vedanta darsanas vis-a-vis semitic darsanas. A very simple question

that will bowl down semitic darsanas is: If there is no reincarnation

(transmigration) - in other words if this is the first birth for all

souls (as semitic darsanas maintain), what explains the differences in

the just-born babies - some are blind, some are deaf, some are healthy,

some are born into poverty etc.. ?

 

Of course, the Vedanta, which maintains transmigration, answers it

quite simply: the jiva reaps the fruits of his past karma in this

birth. At first sight, this answer seemed adequate and satisfying.

However let's intrapolate the question further back - what caused the

jivas to do different kinds of karmas in the past birth reaping

different kinds of fruits in this birth? The Vedantic answer is: the

vasanas (samskaras) accumulated by the jivas in the previous births

impelled them to perform different kinds of karmas in the last

(previous) birth. So here we have a karma-vasana-karma cycle. Extending

it further backwards, if originally all jivas were alike, what caused

them to perform different karmas resulting in different vasanas and

fruits? I truly don't know the answer to his question. I have heard

that karma is anAdi - beginningless. But the question remains: what

causes the difference in the karmas of jivas? I feel that, in this

issue, the current Vedantic answer is not *substantially* better than

the semitic answer. I request our members to give some clarity on this

subject.

 

Narayana.

 

Alwar Acharya Vaishnava dasan,

P.Srinivasan

======================================================

All beings seek happiness.

Undecaying happiness is Narayana.

Therefore all beings are indeed seeking Narayana.

======================================================

 

 

 

Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.

[Guest guest]

dear friends,

>I was recently listening to a person talking about the greatness of

>Vedanta darsanas vis-a-vis semitic darsanas. A very simple question

>that will bowl down semitic darsanas is: If there is no reincarnation

>(transmigration) - in other words if this is the first birth for all

>souls (as semitic darsanas maintain), what explains the differences in

>the just-born babies - some are blind, some are deaf, some are healthy,

>some are born into poverty etc.. ?

 

one possible response: our actions in this (first) life, and our reaction

to the conditions into which we are born (how we overcome difficulties,

etc.), all have an effect on our status in the next life. thus there is no

fundamental difference between the semitic view and the aryan view on this

issue, except that the semitic view is karma on rewind, so to speak. in one

worldview, we are born with a condition because we failed to overcome in a

past life. in the other worldview, we are born with a condition in order

that we may overcome, and the rewards for this struggle in the next world

are immeasurably beyond the pains of this world. knowing our individual

souls, God has fashioned our conditions according to our individual capacity

to bear trials, and so we are born with different impediments.

 

maybe karma is eternal not in the sense that it has no beginning or end, but

rather in the sense that it is exalted above beginnings and endings (i.e.

beyond time). any scriptural references on this hypothesis?

 

i once met a blind person who told me being blind has some big advantages,

for instance not seeing what you are not supposed to see.

in some sense he is lucky for being better able to maintain a pure heart in

our modern societies, so is this really bad karma? or does bad karma/good

karma depend on your attitude?

>Of course, the Vedanta, which maintains transmigration, answers it

>quite simply: the jiva reaps the fruits of his past karma in this

>birth. At first sight, this answer seemed adequate and satisfying.

>However let's intrapolate the question further back - what caused the

>jivas to do different kinds of karmas in the past birth reaping

>different kinds of fruits in this birth? The Vedantic answer is: the

>vasanas (samskaras) accumulated by the jivas in the previous births

>impelled them to perform different kinds of karmas in the last

>(previous) birth. So here we have a karma-vasana-karma cycle. Extending

>it further backwards, if originally all jivas were alike, what caused

>them to perform different karmas resulting in different vasanas and

>fruits? I truly don't know the answer to his question. I have heard

>that karma is anAdi - beginningless. But the question remains: what

>causes the difference in the karmas of jivas? I feel that, in this

>issue, the current Vedantic answer is not *substantially* better than

>the semitic answer. I request our members to give some clarity on this

>subject.

 

one thing which i have always wondered is, if we are reincarnated again and

again in order to become perfect (to work through bad karma and eventually

break free of the cycle of rebirths), wouldn't it make more sense just to

extend our lifespans to the length necessary to achieve this?

 

peace,

 

chris bauch

 

 

____

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[Guest guest]

Srivanshatagopa sri vedanta desika yatindra mahadesikaya namah

Srimathe Sri Lakshmi Nrisimha divya paduka sevaka srivan shatagopa sri

narayana yatindra maha desikaya namaha.

Sri lakshmi nrisimha parabrahmane namaha.

 

Dear friends,

 

Thanks to Sri Chris Bauch who has initiated this question on the net in a

very objective manner. The idea of vedantic system is this as follows :

 

It does not matter what the particular case is: whether it is blindness or

any particular instance of being born as a mad person or a mentally

handicapped person or some such case. Yes, one can argue that blindness

may be more an advantage rather than a disadvantage towards attaining God.

The problem does not go away here. In that case one can ask why did God

not give everyone blindness rather than favouring a few born blind people?

The real question is the idea of difference or discrimination at birth.

Why was such differentiation done? if it were God's will then why does he

do it? Is he a tyrannical ruler who pushes jivas into wombs of different

sorts at will and gives them bondage of whatever type he imagines or is

their some order to this apparently chaotic world? The vedantic system

does not fully base the answer to this question on a scriptural statement.

Of course the scriptural answer to this is given in the brahmasutras :

 

vaishamya nairghnyena sapekshatvat.. (please refer to text for actual

quote)

na karma vibhagad it chet na - anaditvat

 

What this means is that God is not the cause of differentiation or

discrimination of any sort. He only facilitates the rewards and

punishments to a person based on a divine law. In that sense he does not

discriminate against any jiva. Jiva gets benefits of right body or mind or

wealth or any environmental advantage or disadvantage based on its karma.

God is retained as sin-less and the sins or merits transferred to Jivas in

this system. God is retained as the friend and well wisher of all without

any discrimination.

 

In the semitic view the discrimination has to be somehow ascribed to God

since jivas do not have a chance to do anything at birth to cause such

differentiation at birth. This is what is the main point. The next

question raised is here below:

********************************************************************

 

 

 

Chris Bauch [sMTP:chris_bauch1]

Monday, September 13, 1999 12:03 PM

bhakti

Re: Karma and transmigration

 

dear friends,

>Of course, the Vedanta, which maintains transmigration, answers it

>quite simply: the jiva reaps the fruits of his past karma in this

>birth. At first sight, this answer seemed adequate and satisfying.

>However let's intrapolate the question further back - what caused the

>jivas to do different kinds of karmas in the past birth reaping

>different kinds of fruits in this birth? The Vedantic answer is: the

>vasanas (samskaras) accumulated by the jivas in the previous births

>impelled them to perform different kinds of karmas in the last

>(previous) birth. So here we have a karma-vasana-karma cycle. Extending

>it further backwards, if originally all jivas were alike, what caused

>them to perform different karmas resulting in different vasanas and

>fruits? I truly don't know the answer to his question. I have heard

>that karma is anAdi - beginningless. But the question remains: what

>causes the difference in the karmas of jivas? I feel that, in this

>issue, the current Vedantic answer is not *substantially* better than

>the semitic answer. I request our members to give some clarity on this

>subject.

[Krishna Kalale]

 

The true nature of beginningless aspect of time answers the question by

introducing the cyclic nature of karma and avidya; This view, makes the

distinction among jivas more logical by introducing another concept ie. the

concept of karma- avidya anadi chakra. Note that the question- what

causes the difference in the karmas of jivas ?can be answered as below:

 

the karma - avidya cycle is anadi or beginningless. There is this

"ignorance" and karmas or actions that can cause either ignorance or

enlightenment to a certain extent. wrong karmas create ignorance and

bondage (of higher extent). right karmas create enlightenment in a person.

enlightenment influences a person to do right things to work out his

escape from this cycle. Ignorance makes this person do things which

basically bind him more to this cycle of birth and death. This eternal flow

of a mixture of prior karmas and inbuilt ignorance of an individual at any

given point of time, gives a disposition to that individual to continue to

work out and develop one's individuality in terms of mind, personality and

bodies of different kinds. Even here the question comes up, does karma

create ignorance first or ignorance create wrong karmas? This logical

question is answered with a sort of enigmatic answer : it does not matter,

since there is no beginning. The concept of beginninglessness of jiva a

crucial concept in vedantic systems. By this concept of nityatva or

"eternality" a logical question of which came first ? ignorance or bad

karma to an individual soul? - is answered in a sort of enigmatic way since

the person who is asking the question is basically silenced by such a

concept of eternality of soul. That means that at any given point of time

(say for example 10000 billion years ago), one can always logically get

away by stating that prior karmas caused this bondage or body. and prior

karmas were resulted by this unending ever existent cycle of karma- avidya

cycle. God is also left alone untainted by this concept.

 

I am sure even though this is a logical answer carefully putforth by the

vedantic system to calm down a questioning mind . Some may agree that the

answer is sufficient. Some may think that this answer is not sufficient.

One needs to realize this only by real experience. No amount of shastraic

or logical jugglery can make one know a supra-sensory concept. We are

talking about a soul which is beyond sensual realization.

 

 

For this exact same reason, Lord Krishna states that a true yogi can

realize "truth of reincarnation" by actual experience, in Bhagavadgita

verse :

 

"utkramantam stitham vaapi bhunjanam va gunanvitam vimooda nanu pashyati

pashyanti jnana chaksushah"

 

A person who is deluded cannot see this soul, which , is transmigrating

from one body to another body at death and is the agent which is the

experiencer in the living body, .... Only a realized person who is equipped

with the sight of knowledge (obtained through yogic meditation) can see

such a soul which transmigrates and experiences here in a body.

 

......

This means that transmigration is based on experiential knowledge also.

 

[Krishna Kalale]

[Krishna Kalale]

The bottom line is that, one cannot compare semitic and vedantic systems

in any logical way. They are two different systems vedantic systems

believe in the vedas. Semitic systems do not. Logically one can never

argue for one or the other. One needs a common basis for comparison and

the real fact is that there is no common basis. Hence ... the summary

is..... maha jano yena gathah sa panthah.... follow the leaders whomever

you feel comfortable with. that is the real path..... This proves one

other important fact :

 

" A true Vedantin is one who believes in the word of Vedas - shastra

yonitvat". Without trust in shastras nothing can be established even the

existence of God or the Individual Soul !!" And our vedantic system

upholds the vedas - veda shastrat param naasti - ie. there is no shastra

(scripture) higher than the vedas.".

 

Having said this, one has to come to one's own conclusion as to whether

the vedantic theory of re-incarnation or the semitic one-birth-death system

makes sense.

 

 

peace,

 

chris bauch

 

 

____

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[Krishna Kalale]

adiyen Krishna Kalale

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

Sri Chandrasekharan wrote:

> Our Lord is the cause for birth (bhUtha bhAvanA) and he at the same time

> IS the only cause for birthlessness (mOksha pradha). And there is a

> transcendentally profound purpose that The Lord has, to do this. viz.,

> giving birth and taking back and so on for infinite jIvAs. My question

> is what is this Supreme Purpose? Does the fountain of knowledge, the

> vEdAs describe it?

 

When Sri Rama poses a similar question to Sage VasishTa (in the Yoga

VaasishTaM): "Why does this imperfect world arise from the perfect

Brahman?", Sri VasishTa gives the arguably oblique answer: "Rama, in the

mind of a self-realized JnAni, such a question does not arise".

 

Perhaps what Sri VasishTa means is that in the self-realized person, the

sense of individuality- which is the most basic instinct of all sentient

creatures- is dimmed by the understanding "guNA guNeshu vartanta iti"

[worldly activities consist simply of an interplay of the modes of Nature-

Srimad Bhagavad GItA], and that our kartRtvam [doership] is an illusory

front for our real status as nimitta-s [instruments]. As such, this person

becomes a "dumb terminal" thru which the mainframe of Brahmic

consciousness acts. Thereby the entire field of SRshTi is viewed as a

light-hearted leelA. The Yoga VAsishTam further says that during every

eye-wink, thousands of universes are created and destroyed within the

consciousness of Brahman. The particular body and the particular world

with which the JnAni is physically associated are thus seen by him as no

more than a minor detail in the ocean of a higher Reality, a sort of

vacuum fluctuation in consciousness. It is simply a manifestation of

BhagavAn's leelA vibhuti, perhaps not unlike a child going to play for

play's sake, in which we may or may not discern an overall purpose.

 

Just my puerile thoughts on this ultimate mystery!

 

Namo NarayaNa,

Srikanth

[Guest guest]

 

vchandra [sMTP:vchandra]

Sunday, September 26, 1999 8:40 AM

bhakti

karma and transmigration

 

Dear members,

My namaskArams.

There have been a lot of mails about karma, rebirth, life-cycle etc.,

in the past few days. In this regard I have a sincere doubt which I humbly

request the members to clarify. Sri Krishna Kalale and Sri Chris Bauch have

been exchanging ideas about why a jIvA has to take multiple births to

become perfect and finally reach parama padham. Here I have a very basic

doubt. Our Lord is the cause for birth (bhUtha bhAvanA) and he at the same

time IS the only cause for birthlessness (mOksha pradha). And there is a

transcendentally profound purpose that The Lord has, to do this. viz.,

giving birth and taking back and so on for infinite jIvAs. My question is

what is this Supreme Purpose? Does the fountain of knowledge, the vEdAs

describe it?

[Krishna Kalale]

 

 

The explanation I know is as follows:

 

The supreme purpose of creation cannot be easily answered. There are some

theories : lila theory, dristi sristi theory and svabhava vada.

 

lila theory is that it is God's divine play or lila. He is independent but

he plays according to some rules and he is not erratic and a tyrranical

ruler. Further, the purpose of giving a jiva body is clearly to give him

an opportunity to get better. God basicially thinks that if he is allowed

to live longer in the same surroundings he may do the mistakes over and

over again and God wants him transplanted to a different body so that he

can correct himself. Hence even offering a body is basically mercy of God.

As per this theory it is clear how it deals with the problem of life and

death. Life and death is an act of mercy of God as well as God's way of

rewarding and punishing the right and wrong respectively.

 

dristi sristi is a universal theory proposed by Advaita. It is same as

vivarta vada. It states that life or universe exists because we perceive

it. IT is an error in perception that makes this universe of God, beings

and matter, visible as is. Otherwise universe does not exist and only

atman exists. there is no seer or seen but atman which is the basis.

However, birth and death is still explained as in the lila theory

because, Advaita accepts a God who is Iswara who is saguna (relatively

real) even though ultimately false as saguna. What is true is nirguna

atman alone.

 

svabhava vada is roughly same as the scientific theory which states that

birth and death and this universe is all natural. One should not ask why

because it is nature. One may find evidence for how life lives or

originates etc. But one cannot find why things happen the way they happen.

 

Adiyen Krishna Kalale

 

adiyEn,

Chandrasekaran.

[Guest guest]

Dear friends,

 

Of course this question is enigmatic and tough one for any text or

scripture to answer. The book Yoga Vasista mentioned here is an Advaitic

Book. For example, the explanations here below can be viewed in different

ways both in terms of advaita or visistadvaita. However, the text Yoga

vasista itself has clear orientation towards Advaita. Visistadvaitins

generally do not use this book for deriving siddhanta or sampradayic

truths.

 

 

adiyen Krishna Kalale

 

 

****************************************************

When Sri Rama poses a similar question to Sage VasishTa (in the Yoga

VaasishTaM): "Why does this imperfect world arise from the perfect

Brahman?", Sri VasishTa gives the arguably oblique answer: "Rama, in the

mind of a self-realized JnAni, such a question does not arise".

 

Perhaps what Sri VasishTa means is that in the self-realized person, the

sense of individuality- which is the most basic instinct of all sentient

creatures- is dimmed by the understanding "guNA guNeshu vartanta iti"

[worldly activities consist simply of an interplay of the modes of Nature-

Srimad Bhagavad GItA], and that our kartRtvam [doership] is an illusory

front for our real status as nimitta-s [instruments]. As such, this person

becomes a "dumb terminal" thru which the mainframe of Brahmic

consciousness acts. Thereby the entire field of SRshTi is viewed as a

light-hearted leelA. The Yoga VAsishTam further says that during every

eye-wink, thousands of universes are created and destroyed within the

consciousness of Brahman. The particular body and the particular world

with which the JnAni is physically associated are thus seen by him as no

more than a minor detail in the ocean of a higher Reality, a sort of

vacuum fluctuation in consciousness. It is simply a manifestation of

BhagavAn's leelA vibhuti, perhaps not unlike a child going to play for

play's sake, in which we may or may not discern an overall purpose.

 

Just my puerile thoughts on this ultimate mystery!

 

Namo NarayaNa,

Srikanth