Cleanliness...

[Guest guest]

Dear Sriman Sampathkumaran :

 

Your feelings and genuine concern about cleanliness in

temples is well-placed. However, adiyen may kindly be

permitted to add my few cents' worth as some one whose

doctoral research is on the subject of people's attitude to

environmental problems (water and garbage) with Madras

(Chennai) as focus.

 

There are two different problems here. One concerns

behaviour by regular users of temples. The other concerns

behaviour by users who are not day-to-day users but

occasional visitors. In a place like Tirupati, the latter

is the bigger issue. In most smaller temples, the former is

the issue.

 

In discussions on common prpoperty resources, this is

referred to as incentive problem. A temple space or for

that matter many public spaces are open access resources.

While the people you refer to throw the 'dunnai' or

contribute to waste in the public spaces, they may be

keeping their own houses clean (according to their

standards). In both instances, they are behaving rationally

(according to a narrow interpretation of rationality).

There is no incentive to keep the public space clean -

due to either a lack of a sense of ownership (that this

space belongs to everyone including me), or a general

belief that 'someone' will take care of it any way.

 

I do not want to go into details but the solution to this

problem is to correct the incentives. Regulation and

coercion was thought to be the solution (Garet Hardin's

1967 paper The Tragedy of Commons), but we know from

experience that people themselves resolving the problem is

better than regulation imposed in a top down fashion.

Madras also has one of the best examples of such

co-operative solution named Exnora. I do not know if your

comments about Tiruvellikeni are based on today's

experience but as far as my knowledge goes, there are

several Civic Exnoras and an organisation called Srinivasa

Young Men Association (or something like that) working near

and around Parthasarathy temple area. These organisations

together have transformed Tiruvallikeni area completely

from the earlier one of garbage strewn locale to one of

clean community. Also, adjacent to Tiruvallikeni temple,

(in Peyalwar sannidhi street - if I am not wrong) there is

a colony (like an agraharam) in a space belonging to a

trust originally belonging to a devotee from Ayodhya. That

entire colony is an example of how modern life can co-exist

with vedic philosophy - they have again collectively

organised water and sanitation in the entire colony. I am

not making this up. In fact, I was pleasantly surprised to

find a discussion of this colony in VS Naipaul's book

'India - A Million Mutinies Now' though the names of the

persons have been changed.

 

The same can be done in Tiruvallore or in fact anywhere. To

form an organisation like Civic Exnora you need

participation of all the people concerned. Example itself

then acts as an instrument of change. Before asking people

not to throw garbage we need to show them where it can be

thrown. We need to make sure the garbage so collected is

then disposed of properly. You will need the help of local

municipal organisation for the purpose.

>From my research, it was found that people in Madras in

general (all walks of life) have a good understanding of

environmental problems. But that awareness by itself fails

to transform into action without appropriate institutions.

There are good examples of how such institutions can be

created and sustained without much difficulty.

 

If I have spoken too much, adiyen may kindly be forgiven.

 

Dasan

Anand

----------------------

P.B. Anand

p.b.anand

[Guest guest]

Sri.P.B.Anand,> wrote:

> Dear Sriman Sampathkumaran :

>

> Your feelings and genuine concern about cleanliness>

in > temples is well-placed.

> If I have spoken too much, adiyen may kindly be

> forgiven.

> > Dasan

> Anand

 

First of all, I request Sri.Anand not to use the

honorific "sriman" for me. I am very ordinary person

and feel uncomfortable being addressed like that. Just

"Sampath" or "Sri.Sampath" (for sake of politeness) is

OK.

 

You have written well on the subject of cleanliness.

Exnora is doing good work in Madras in some areas but

not in all. Also I am not well read so I have not

heard of authors you mention like Naipaul and others.

 

My point was different. Why Vaishnava sampradyam

cannot specifically articulate or stipulate

cleanliness like it does other things like importance

of wearing "urdhvapundram" or "samAshrayanam" or

reading "sri-bashyam" or going on 108 DD tour once in

lifetime? Why can't our "achAryA-s" make it a point to

say that everyone comes to seek their 'diksha' must

also show proof that their "kainkaryam" includes

certain hours of cleaning or rubbish clearing they did

in temples or mutts or in some religious spot?

 

In Sikh religion devotees are held very dear and

special if they show that they have done some cleaning

duty at the Golden Temple... like scrubbing the floor,

cleaing the Golden Temple toilets, watching over

chappals of pilgrims etc. Similarly why some of our

"achAryA-s" like even HH Azhagiyasingar and Jeeyar

also cannot insist that those who come to ashram must

compulsorily show that they have spent so many hours

cleaning the surroundings of some DD or some

madapalli, or sweeping mutt rooms, removing cobwebs,

washing clothes of vaideeka-bhagavatha-s etc? When

such people come to him for 'danda-samarpanam' and

getting 'mantra-akshada' acharya should show same

extra pleasure and happiness in meeting them like when

he meets some one who says he has mastered 'tarka' or

'mimamsa' or 4000 prabandam-s?

 

Why "achAryA-s" are not in the habit of specifically

talking about "cleanliness" of temple, mutt, ashram

surroundings? Why always preoccupation with building

tall gopurams, more sannidhi-s, or making jewellery

etc. If "achAryA-s" become strict and campaign about

outward "shuddhi" as much as they do about inward

"suchi" and go on non-stop giving messages about

cleanliness surely all disciples will have some fear

and then begin to follow strictures.

 

Please don't take this as criticism of any acharya or

any particular temple. I am very,very sorry if I gave

you that feeling. I have great respect for all

achAryA-s.

 

I am talking in generality only. I am only sad because

of uncleanliness some of our temples do not present a

good sight. One of my good Hindu friend used to joke

that cleanliness at places of worship may be Christian

ethic not Hindu one but if cleanliness is next to

godliness then we should not be surprised if God puts

a healthy distance between Himself and some of our

great temples. I get very angry at his remark but

sometimes it makes me wonder.

 

I hope I too have not spoken too much and out of turn.

I am new member in this group and I am very sorry if

I'm coming across as offensive. Sorry, very sorry.

Please pardon.

 

Sampath

 

=====

 

 

 

Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhagavatas

In a message dated 10/14/1999 7:42:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

sampathkumar_2000 writes:

 

"Why Vaishnava sampradyam cannot specifically articulate or stipulate

cleanliness like it does other things like importance of wearing

"urdhvapundram" or "samAshrayanam" or reading "sri-bashyam" or going on 108

DD tour once in

lifetime?"

 

Vaishnava Sampradayam does emphasize cleanliness through what is known as

Anujnaa Kainkaryam. One of Bhagavad Ramanuja's injunctions is to keep the

premises of temples clean.

 

He further writes-

<< Similarly why some of our "achAryA-s" like even HH Azhagiyasingar and

Jeeyar

also cannot insist that those who come to ashram must compulsorily show that

they have spent so many hours cleaning the surroundings of some DD or some

madapalli, or sweeping mutt rooms, removing cobwebs, washing clothes of

vaideeka-bhagavatha-s etc? >>

 

It is not that our Acharyas do not care about cleanliness. They cannot be

expected to lay down such rigorous conditions as suggested because this

involves supervising, policing, punishing for non-compliance etc which is not

their domain nor is it practicable and they have better things to do.

 

It will be like the story in which a SannyAsi became a SamsAri, for rearing a

Cat!

 

And, such unwarranted strictness will scare away even those who wish to

approach

them for spiritual enlightenment.

 

Before asking what Acharyas have done or not done, it would be a better idea

to ask ourselves what we have done or propose to do in this regard.

 

Like "Satyam Vadha"- "Tell the truth", "Dharmam Chara"-"Do what is your

duty". Keeping the environment clean is an unwritten law which every sane and

sensible person (not only Srivaishnava) is expected to observe. It is we, who

go to AchAryas, who should form a band of volunteers to implement this in

letter and spirit.

 

He further writes-

"Why "achAryA-s" are not in the habit of specifically

talking about "cleanliness" of temple, mutt, ashram

surroundings?"

 

I do not know whether other AchAryas do it or not. But, Srimad Andavan of

Poundarikapuram Ashramam insists on certain basic requirements like-

not entering the premises without washing hands and feet at the temple tank,

not spitting or littering in the Ashramam premises, not making the place

unclean by keeping handbags, luggage etc in spots earmarked for keeping the

sacred Dravyams etc.

Besides hanging bill boards in the relevant places with promises which when

read would appear as if uttered by the visitor himself like - "I promise not

to come in without being clean", " I will not desecrate this place in any

manner" etc.

he makes sure by personal inquiry whether these have, in fact, been observed.

 

Sorry if I have offended any in presenting my two cents worth.

 

Dasoham

Anbil Ramaswamy

[Guest guest]

Sri Anbil Ramaswamy wrote:

> It is not that our Acharyas do not care about cleanliness. They

> cannot be expected to lay down such rigorous conditions as

> suggested because this involves supervising, policing,

> punishing for non-compliance etc which is not their domain nor

> is it practicable and they have better things to do. ...

 

As it is, most of our acharyas give commandments about what

AchAram to observe, etc. Certainly they supervise and police

their sishyas to a certain extent when it comes to such

ritual purity. I think Sri Sampathkumaran's point is that

since there is so much focus on ritual purity in our tradition,

such directives coming straight from the top, why is it that there

is so little emphasis on simple cleanliness and organization,

as well as Atma-guNas? Why is it that in this respect we pale in

comparison to Christian and Muslim places of worship in India,

with little direction coming from our spiritual leaders?

I think this is a very valid question.

> And, such unwarranted strictness will scare away even those who

> wish to approach them for spiritual enlightenment.

 

On the contrary, I think the average person is already deathly

afraid of approaching our swAmis, because of the tremendous emphasis

on ritual purity. Several devout people (particularly women)

have told me how they are scared out of their wits when they visit

an ashramam or maTham, for fear of violating some unknown rule of

AchAram. Of course, if they do violate a rule, they are quickly

scolded by some vigilant sishya. This is what makes most people

shy away from contact with acharyas.

 

I think simple emphasis on cleanliness, and Atma-guNas, will in

no way make anything in our tradition less approachable, and I

strongly disagree that such rules are unwarranted.

 

Mani